I'm tired of the so-called "green movement' by car makers who are building in countries that have no strict EPA requirements. Where toxic wastes are discharged into streams, plastics and heavy metals get burned and released into the atmosphere, and where no one even pretends to care. All so we "Americans" can have our "green cars."
Because a lot of these parts are built mostly in third-world countries, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, China, we here in the States forget to care. But the reality is the new "green cars" being built today have a larger carbon footprint and are more detrimental to the earth and the environment than the gas guzzlers built during the 60's through the '90's.
It's the world we are supposed to be worried about, not just the USA. Their air is our air eventually, their water becomes our water.
Yet for some reason we clap our hands like children with a new toy and look at these "green cars" and say, "Oh goody, aren't we ever so ecologically neat and forward thinking?" The hard truth is, we're not. :mad:
Excellent point - that's one of the major reasons enviro groups like the Sierra Club opposed NAFTA.
You can choose to buy from companies that have a transparency program to assure brand accountability. Here's one source: 1% for the Planet. No auto companies have made that list yet.
I'm tired of the so-called "green movement' by car makers who are building in countries that have no strict EPA requirements. Where toxic wastes are discharged into streams, plastics and heavy metals get burned and released into the atmosphere, and where no one even pretends to care. All so we "Americans" can have our "green cars."
This has been one of my pet peeves with the hybrids being brought into the USA. I get lambasted by so called environmental types that believe it is OK to pollute other countries. For them the end justifies the means. The end being a gas hybrid for instance.
The EV movement has some credibility. Again where will the batteries and motors be built? Can they be built in the USA under our EPA regulations. If not they should not be brought into and sold in this country. As far as Teslacars, they are becoming just a joke in my book. Old technology in a fancy body being built in another country for the very wealthy to push their green agenda on the unsuspecting masses.
I paid $3.99 for gas for both my cars in the past 24 hours, so I am at the mystical figure proposed by this thread. I really didn't do anything unusual.
I put a couple gallons in the old car every time I drive it, and I top off the modern car once a week (fixation of mine), so I am never hit with a big bill, just a bunch of small ones.
"If I could get something going like the person who posted the other day that his employer pays the workers $4/day to take mass transit or other economical transportation things would be even greater"
That was me, and to the other person who asked if they also pay that incentive to ride your bike in, the answer is yes. You have to commit to biking in every day, I believe.
I checked out transit: there is only bus transit where I live, and there is no bus that would deliver me to work on time. So I am still not a participant in this program. If I were in better shape, I might follow my principles to their logical conclusion and bike to work, but I might have a heart attack if I tried that presently. :-/
Oh, and the average price of regular unleaded has now officially exceeded $4/gallon in the SF Bay. I managed to find a place where I could buy it for $3.89 earlier today, but it could be "time to change the title of the thread"...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is a legitimate scientific reason for raising the issue. The flow of electrical current to the motor that moves a hybrid vehicle at low speeds (and assists the gasoline engine on the highway) produces magnetic fields, which some studies have associated with serious health matters, including a possible risk of leukemia among children.
With the batteries and power cables in hybrids often placed close to the driver and passengers, some exposure to electromagnetic fields is unavoidable. Moreover, the exposure will be prolonged — unlike, say, using a hair dryer or electric shaver — for drivers who spend hours each day at the wheel.
Some hybrid owners have actually tested their cars for electromagnetic fields using hand-held meters, and a few say they are alarmed by the results.
Their concern is not without merit; agencies including the National Institutes of Health and the National Cancer Institute acknowledge the potential hazards of long-term exposure to a strong electromagnetic field, or E.M.F., and have done studies on the association of cancer risks with living near high-voltage utility lines.
“It would be a mistake to jump to conclusions about hybrid E.M.F. dangers, as well as a mistake to outright dismiss the concern,” said Jim Kliesch, a senior engineer for the clean vehicles program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “Additional research would improve our understanding of the issue.”
The concern over high E.M.F. levels in hybrids has come not just from worrisome instrument readings, but also from drivers who say that their hybrids make them ill.
Neysa Linzer, 58, of Bulls Head in Staten Island, bought a new Honda Civic Hybrid in 2007 for the 200 miles a week she drove to visit grocery stores in her merchandising job for a supermarket chain. She said that the car reduced her gasoline use, but there were problems — her blood pressure rose and she fell asleep at the wheel three times, narrowly averting accidents.
“I never had a sleepiness problem before,” Ms. Linzer said, adding that it was her own conclusion, not a doctor’s, that the car was causing the symptoms.
Ms. Linzer asked Honda to provide her with shielding material for protection from the low-frequency fields, but the company declined her request last August, saying that its hybrid cars are “thoroughly evaluated” for E.M.F.’s before going into production.
Testing with a TriField meter led Brian Collins of Encinitas, Calif., to sell his 2001 Honda Insight just six months after he bought it — at a loss of $7,000. He said the driver was receiving “dangerously high” E.M.F. levels of up to 135 milligauss at the hip and up to 100 milligauss at the upper torso. These figures contrasted sharply with results from his Volkswagen van, which measured one to two milligauss.
Kent Shadwick, controller of purchasing services for the York Catholic District School Board in York, Ontario, evaluated the Toyota Prius for fleet use. Mr. Shadwick said it was tested at various speeds, and under hard braking and rapid acceleration, using a professional-quality gauss meter.
“The results that we saw were quite concerning,” he said. “We saw high levels in the vehicle for both the driver and left rear passenger, which has prompted us to explore shielding options and to consider advocating testing of different makes and models of hybrid vehicles.”
Lawrence Gust of Ventura, Calif., a consultant with a specialty in E.M.F.’s and electrical sensitivity, was one of the electrical engineers who tested Mr. Collins’s Insight in 2001. He agreed that the readings were high but did not want to speculate on whether they were harmful. “There are big blocks of high-amp power being moved around in a hybrid, the equivalent of horsepower,” he said. “I get a lot of clients who ask if they should buy hybrid electric cars, and I say the jury is still out.”
I'm doing more online shopping and when I do go to the store I call ahead to ensure that what I want is in stock. Grocery shopping we buy some extra to reduce the number of trips.
Actually, it was slightly cheaper out on the turnpike at $3.86 a gallon. I was expecting it to be over $4 out there as the turnpike prices are usually much higher.
I probably got really good fuel economy in the Park Ave on way back to Philly from Harrisburg because of the rain. I ran the car last night to my second job, filled up on my way home and it only took $11 worth, (barely more than 3 gallons). I noticed everybody was driving at a reasonable speed even when the weather was clear. Who needs speed limits? The gasoline market determines the speed limit.
Other observations: Carlisle itself was as packed with people or cars and a diner that we go to after the show had a pretty empty parking lot - weird for a car show weekend.
I must really be a jerk. My commute is less than 4 miles. I can walk if I want to. Or I can ride the bus. You meet the "nicest people" on a SEPTA! I've been think about getting a bicycle, but I'd have to reroute my commute as there are two very dangerous intersections for bicyclists. I'd also have to pack a Beretta, as one neighborhood I have to pass through gets a little hairy at times.
I've seen pictures of downtown Shanghai and it looks like Pittsburgh circa 1955. The air polluion in China is so bad you can see it from California. They have absolutely no regard for the environment. That super dam will probably become China's worst ecological disaster.
Isn't it amazing how good the gas mileage is in a Buick Park Avenue.. 31-32 with mine on the hwy. I went back last summer and got another with only 42K on it just for the mileage. Its too bad GM didn't advertise the mileage. They are not made anymore and the last ones were produced in 04 and a few in 05.
The Park Avenue turned out to be one of the smartest purchases I ever made! It's comfortable, provides reasonable power, is fairly attractive, extremely reliable, and very fuel efficient. What did they know back in 1988 that we don't know now?
I think one of the problems is weight. My 2007 Cadillac DTS feels like a Panzer tank compared to earlier Cadillacs I've owned. I swear it weighs as much or not much less than my 1989 Cadillac Brougham which is a much larger car. One of my most fuel-efficient cars was my red 1994 DeVille. Even with a V-8, the car delivered a decent 25 MPG highway mileage.
This position sounds like that goofy CNW 'study'. If you are basing your view point on that study you might want to reconsider it. The originator just made up stuff and wouldn't let anyone do any peer review of his methodology.
While it may be true that other countries/regions may have less strict environmental conditions the parts and subassemblies manufacturerd there are miniscule in relation to the amount of pollution at an assembly plant or even more so by the fuel used by drivers and even more so by the entire petroleum industry from exploration to retailing.
Interestingly, they're both practically the same size inside and get the same fuel economy numbers. Despite its extra bulk, the old bomber has a tighter turning circle and a bigger gas tank to its credit.
"What did they know back in 1988 that we don't know now?"
Or even in 1992?
Autoweek just did a comparo in its green issue between the 2008 Honda Fit and the 1992 Civic VX. The two are very similar in size, the only difference being that the Fit is ten inches taller.
They have almost identical 0-60 times, and the Fit weighs only 400 pounds more than the '92 Civic. Despite that, the best they could do with the Fit was 32/37 mpg (under the old rating system), compared to 43/51 for the Civic 15 years ago (also under the old system). It's pathetic, and it's because they are not even trying any more.
Or more accurately, they don't want their less complex small cars out-gas-saving their precious hybrid models costing $10K more.
When those late 80s/early 90s cars were being designed and built, everyone still remembered the oil shocks of the mid-70s and early 80s. There was still a focus on the consumer's part on fuel economy. The buyers forget quickly, and as soon as they do the automakers start to push other priorities on which they can better profit.
PS it is not lost on me that the only difference in size between the VX and the Fit, besides the 400 pounds, is the ten inches of extra height. I can only guess at how much extra air the Fit has to push out of the way just to do the same job as the VX. This height increase in all cars brought on by the SUV boom is a problem for trying to rapidly increase fuel economy now. And before everyone jumps in with how the VX had manual this and that, the Fit has power everything, people want creature comforts now, blah blah blah, I am focusing on the weight gain specifically. Despite the addition of all those things mentioned, the weight increase is actually less than 400 pounds, and at 2400 or so the Fit is still almost the lightest production vehicle on the road today. More to the point, that's less than a 20% increase in weight vs the VX 15 years ago.
I am of the firm conviction that Honda just wasn't trying very hard to deliver good gas mileage in the Fit. All the automakers are equally guilty - they are not trying very hard. Look at all these TV ads now trumpeting their models that "make 30 mpg". 30 mpg highway???? How enormously pathetic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Interestingly, they're both practically the same size inside and get the same fuel economy numbers. Despite its extra bulk, the old bomber has a tighter turning circle and a bigger gas tank to its credit.
I imagine the transverse FWD setup and wide rims and tires on the DTS are the culprit of that wide turning circle.
One thing I find interesting is that, according to www.fueleconomy.gov, the 2008 DTS has 113 cubic feet of interior volume and 19 cubic feet of trunk space, whereas the '89 era Brougham has "only" 110 cubic feet of interior room and 20 cubic feet of trunk space. I think the Brougham would have more generous shoulder room and rear seat legroom, but the DTS would have greater headroom, which helps inflate the overall figure.
I've been in both types of car, and the old-school Brougham definitely feels a lot bigger inside to me, despite the fact that it's smaller according to the EPA. If the ceiling is already 2-3 inches away from my head, adding another inch to that dimension isn't going to do anything for me. But adding another inch or two to shoulder room is going to make the car feel bigger to me. The Brougham also has a lower beltline, bigger windows, and smaller pillars, so that probably helps it feel roomier, as well. And other aspects, such as how much the sides curve in, how badly the wheel wells intrude, or how much the dashboard juts in don't affect the actual published volume. However, they have a definite effect on useable interior room.
I dug up some old EPA stats that list my '79 5th Ave at 108 cubic feet of interior room and 21 cubic feet of trunk space. The old mastodon '74-78 style was only 107/22. Yet, my '79 feels pretty big inside, while those pre-downsized ones felt downright cavernous inside. Again, I guess it could just be that with my '79 the window area is large, the pillars are small, and the beltline is low. Plus, the dash slopes away pretty radically, there's no front wheel well intrusion, and the driveshaft and tranny hump are relatively small. The '78 style was a hardtop, so that might have helped it to feel even roomier. Plus, those pre-downsized styles had even less dashboard/wheelwell/transmission hump intrusion than the downsized models that followed them.
Here is the sentence in that story which matters the most:
The tests conducted by hybrid owners rarely approach the level of thoroughness of those run by automakers.
Toyota test the Prius at 1/300th of the Euro "safe" ratings. (that's pretty low)
I'm letting my kids ride in the backseat right by the batteries. There is NO danger. Take it from the millions of owners who are not showing ill effects rather than the one who said it made her "sleepy."
You need to take your rant up with the NY Times, not me. This is not the first case of illness blamed on EMF. There are 3 quoted in this article and others have brought it up on Edmund's only to be pushed aside as wacko hybrid haters. Your protest of the NY Times article is noted:
Take it from the millions of owners who are not showing ill effects rather than the one who said it made her "sleepy."
Just how many millions of hybrid owners would that be?
I would say our average is way over $30 per month. I just bought my wife a phone and signed up at Costco. The Cheapest at&t rate was $29.95 per month. Just for basic phone with 200 minutes per month. That being about 180 more than she uses. Yes we waste a lot of money on worthless gadgets every month. Wonder if a lot of phones get disconnected when people decide between having a phone or driving their car?
Why is Diesel fuel at $4.33 right now? This is crazy, its making our food we eat much more expensive and the travel we do by RV much more expensive. My grandparents are cutting down, well all the people they travel with are cutting down all the smaller trips they take in their Diesel RV because they have to save more to go on longer trips... This is hurting the economy badly in the sense that they are not spending any of the money they would have at restraints and RV parks throughout the county. I am guessing that this is happening more and more for people that usually take vacations frequently. I am tired of this oil war... Want a hybrid? Pay more for the car and gas... (where are the savings, really?) Have a diesel? Pay more... don't go on vacation. Electric? Cant take that to Vegas... Anything out there appealing to me? No.
I bought a Toyota Camry Hybrid. The huge magnetic fields generated by the batteries and electric motor in the Hybrid have made my daughter's hamster change from sleeping in the North-East corner of the cage to now sleeping in the South -West corner.
BTW the electric motor is under the hood in front of the engine. According to Farraday's law, no electric field can penetrate steel. The reason automobiles are one of the safest place in a lightning storm is because of Farraday's law. The cables from the electric motor to the batteries have one positive and one negative connection or current would not flow. This means that any magnetic fields generated would self cancel;.
The strength of the field at the Earth's surface ranges from less than 30 microteslas (0.3 gauss) in an area including most of South America and South Africa to over 60 microteslas (0.6 gauss) around the magnetic poles in northern Canada and south of Australia, and in part of Siberia. .3 gauss is 300 milli- Gauss. .6 Gauss is 600 milli- Gauss. Just what was the level of milli- Gauss that made that dude sell his hybrid. 100 to 120 milli- Gauss. He was no doubt measuring the earth's field
I have a theory :. The intelligence of the universe is a constant. The population is increasing.
I'd suggest a Tracfone. You can get a phone plus a year's use and 400-600 minutes for about $110 including tax and shipping. Or you can go for 800 minutes plus maybe 200 bonus and double minutes if you purchase extra through the year for $150.
My kid's only failed when they were in the Gulf between Keys--actually out on a sailboat traveling from Seabase for a scout trip to Key West. Guess there wasn't a tower nearby in the water between Keys.
...is easily the cheapest bill I pay: an average of $17 a month. I don't even have a cell phone. If I want to communicate with my family, I can do it by instant messaging on the internet.
Want a hybrid? Pay more for the car and gas... (where are the savings, really?) It depends on what you are now driving, what it's worth on a trade in, and what gas prices have to get to to make the gas savings of a hybrid worth while. I will save about $160 a month at $4.00 a gallon. It will be $203 a month at $5,00 a gallon ( next Year ? ) How much will a new car creally cost ?
Well I almost bought a VX in '93 (I'm in California) so there's something that needs clarifying about that tidbit. I think it had the same powertrain as the HX coupe, which was sold all along until they killed it in 2005 to make way for the hybrid.
Edit....OK, found it in the article you linked: "Indeed, Honda cannot sell the high-efficiency Civic VX in California, where current clean-air rules are most stringent. Instead, Honda will sell a Civic VX in that state with less fuel-efficient engines"
VTEC-E created such lean-burn conditions that NOx emissions were often very high. So they tweaked it for California, which is why the model here was only rated 43/51, and the federal model was rated 48/55 (per your NY Times article).
Funnily enough, when that model was introduced, Congress was considering raising CAFE standards again, and the domestics were ticked off that Honda had produced a 50 mpg car with no extraordinary measures, proving that there were less barriers to raising fuel economy standards than they claimed. :-P
Now ask Honda how many they sold. The VX got pulled after one generation - that was the hatchback. The coupe, labelled HX, soldiered on until 2005, but never sold well, not the entire time. The funny thing was it was scheduled for termination by Honda about a year before Katrina and the huge rises in gas prices. I am convinced that were they still selling an HX coupe today, it would be ROCKETING off dealer lots. Its price was still only around $15K when they discontinued it in 2005.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Faradey's Law states: The induced electromagnetic force or EMF in any closed circuit is equal to the time rate of change of the magnetic flux linking the circuit. He doesn't mention penetrating steel but you're probably right.
BTW, "The intelligence of the universe is a constant. The population is increasing." should certainly be a recognized law!
I know its slightly sarcastic. This is the thing, a new Yukon is about $30k... Most people can afford that. The hybrid is $50k.
Thats a pretty big jump from being on the affordable level and being way out of budget for alot of people. Its the principal cost of the car. So, can you spend $50k now... or have to deal with the price of fuel because $20k more financing is ridiculous to you.
From my standpoint in the industry I am in, most people are just buying cars right now and saving money on the purchase price... Not to try and save the environment, not to save money in the future. The economy is hurting right now, and they need to save money right now even if that means buy a car thats less efficient for the future.
Get ready for another economic shock of major proportions — a virtual doubling of prices at the gas pump to as much as $10 a gallon.
That's the message from a couple of analytical energy industry trackers, both of whom, based on the surging oil prices, see considerably more pain at the pump than most drivers realize.
Gasoline nationally is in an accelerated upswing, having jumped to $3.58 a gallon from $3.50 in just the past week. In some parts of the country, including New York City and the West Coast, gas is already sporting a price tag above $4 a gallon. There was a pray-in at a Chevron station in San Francisco on Friday led by a minister asking God for cheaper gas, and an Arco gas station in San Mateo, Calif., has already raised its price to a sky-high $4.62.
His latest prediction of $200 oil is open to question, since it would undoubtedly create considerable global economic distress. Further, just about every energy expert I talk to cautions me to expect a sizable pullback in oil prices, maybe to between $50 and $70 a barrel, especially if there's a global economic slowdown.
How much can someone making shoes for 50 cents an hour afford to pay for gas? We are already seeing our system crumbling under the weight of high priced oil. The thing to remember "what goes up, must come down".
Agree. Buy what you can afford now and perhaps the car companies, in wanting to revitalize their businesses, they would start supplemental companies that produced retrofit technologires for cars already produced.
Producing retrofit kits would not be too difficult. This would create jobs, revitalize our economy and make a now derelict and undervalued part of our nation, due to outsourcing, a once again thriving community with a sense of pride.
We haven't even come close to cutting out recreational use of gas. It is hard to figure gas is overpriced when I see people driving across an apartment complex to get their mail. Another example is that where I work, we have an employee cafeteria but yet we still have a mass exodus at 11:30 to drive somewhere for lunch. Not to mention that it seems like easily half these people are driving medium or large SUVs. There is a guy at work who bicycles five miles to the office once or twice a week. People think he is a freak.
Now thats a damn good idea... Whats funny is that we turned a VW rabbit into an electric vehicle when I was in HS. And also built an EV, that lasted about an hour going avg. 35mph... This was in 2000. (No ones making retrofit kits that I know of)
I dont think the oil company's or the car makers give a crap about the people... I did this 8 years ago as a HS student and they, or anyone for that matter cant figure out what to do to make things better, give me a break... All they care about is $$$.
Goes for housing too. People can't afford to pay half a million dollars for some falling down shack in the 'hood, so it will go for fuel prices. The truckers are already storming Washington DC as we speak.
I wouldn't think the bicyclist is a freak. I'd say he was a health-concious genius while the guy driving across the compound to pick up his mail was a fat lazy fool.
Of course, this recent trip to Spring Carlisle demonstrated a few things. People were driving a lot slower on the PA Turnpike, and this was before the rain. There were fewer folks attending the show than in years past. The diner we ate at later was quite empty. Heck, by the time I got home to Philly, I felt like a fool for going, but I did have a good time. I could've instead stayed home and went to work and made some money.
What about 3rd row seating? The comfort of a full size car... I wonder what the cost difference is to the manufacturer to produce a hybrid or EV? I mean, its a $20k option. This is the kind of pricing you see from Ferrari, or Bentley.
Someone that has a bunch of kids or is involved in a bunch of activities would definitely benefit from having a hybrid, but then they are docked for buying one?
This is hurting the economy badly in the sense that they are not spending any of the money they would have at restraints and RV parks throughout the county.
Yes the restraints are only needed if you're in an RV a long time with the family members.
But seriously, if the country wants to conserve gas then you really shouldn't have people driving these sorts of vehicles around for recreational purposes. But I don't endorse any law that would force such a thing, or ban power-boating. People have the freedom to buy what they want and use fuel how they want as long as they can afford it. The market will work all on its, with increasing prices encouraging some to give up some of these uses.
People can't afford to pay half a million dollars for some falling down shack
I have looked at $500k and up fixers both in CA and Hawaii. When you take into consideration that when we had the bad rains a few years ago and several homes in Laguna Beach slid down the hill. It is put into perspective what the land is worth when those lots sold for as much as $27 million. So the best thing to do is buy up those homes in the hood when the prices are low. Fix them up and make a killing on the next housing boom...
Many folks were booted out of their rentals in the slums of San Diego, when they were sold for huge prices.
I looked into converting my 99 Ranger into electric. It was about $16k for the conversion including lead acid batteries. That would include me doing the work. I have decided to keep the Ranger that only gets about 3k miles per year on it. Or buy a full sized older diesel truck with a little more power. Either option is a whole lot cheaper than EV conversion. Including the price of fuel for the rest of my life.
Rumor has it the manufacturing cost difference for hybrids can exceed the asking price - this is serious stuff, a whole added drive train (motor/generators, battery packs, etc.) and the size/cost goes up with vehicle size, so the ~$5000 premium for the Tahoe (at equal levels of options) is well within reason. That said, the only hybrids that make economic sense are the Prius, Civic, Camry, and Escape, as far as I can tell. I challenge your statement on 'the comfort of a full sized car' - test drive a Highlander, it's as nice as any Tahoe. Not much more room in a Tahoe, either, certainly no more room than a Pilot.
That is rad... Im going to seriously check it out, maybe get my hands on a 1980's BMW 3 series and make it my EV. That is cool, I get pumped up about this kind of stuff. They are in California too, I dont know where Felton is but im going to check into this for sure.
Comments
Because a lot of these parts are built mostly in third-world countries, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, China, we here in the States forget to care. But the reality is the new "green cars" being built today have a larger carbon footprint and are more detrimental to the earth and the environment than the gas guzzlers built during the 60's through the '90's.
It's the world we are supposed to be worried about, not just the USA. Their air is our air eventually, their water becomes our water.
Yet for some reason we clap our hands like children with a new toy and look at these "green cars" and say, "Oh goody, aren't we ever so ecologically neat and forward thinking?" The hard truth is, we're not. :mad:
You can choose to buy from companies that have a transparency program to assure brand accountability. Here's one source: 1% for the Planet. No auto companies have made that list yet.
More Companies Want Outsource Vendors to Green Operation (Greenbiz.com)
This has been one of my pet peeves with the hybrids being brought into the USA. I get lambasted by so called environmental types that believe it is OK to pollute other countries. For them the end justifies the means. The end being a gas hybrid for instance.
The EV movement has some credibility. Again where will the batteries and motors be built? Can they be built in the USA under our EPA regulations. If not they should not be brought into and sold in this country. As far as Teslacars, they are becoming just a joke in my book. Old technology in a fancy body being built in another country for the very wealthy to push their green agenda on the unsuspecting masses.
I put a couple gallons in the old car every time I drive it, and I top off the modern car once a week (fixation of mine), so I am never hit with a big bill, just a bunch of small ones.
That was me, and to the other person who asked if they also pay that incentive to ride your bike in, the answer is yes. You have to commit to biking in every day, I believe.
I checked out transit: there is only bus transit where I live, and there is no bus that would deliver me to work on time. So I am still not a participant in this program. If I were in better shape, I might follow my principles to their logical conclusion and bike to work, but I might have a heart attack if I tried that presently. :-/
Oh, and the average price of regular unleaded has now officially exceeded $4/gallon in the SF Bay. I managed to find a place where I could buy it for $3.89 earlier today, but it could be "time to change the title of the thread"...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is a legitimate scientific reason for raising the issue. The flow of electrical current to the motor that moves a hybrid vehicle at low speeds (and assists the gasoline engine on the highway) produces magnetic fields, which some studies have associated with serious health matters, including a possible risk of leukemia among children.
With the batteries and power cables in hybrids often placed close to the driver and passengers, some exposure to electromagnetic fields is unavoidable. Moreover, the exposure will be prolonged — unlike, say, using a hair dryer or electric shaver — for drivers who spend hours each day at the wheel.
Some hybrid owners have actually tested their cars for electromagnetic fields using hand-held meters, and a few say they are alarmed by the results.
Their concern is not without merit; agencies including the National Institutes of Health and the National Cancer Institute acknowledge the potential hazards of long-term exposure to a strong electromagnetic field, or E.M.F., and have done studies on the association of cancer risks with living near high-voltage utility lines.
“It would be a mistake to jump to conclusions about hybrid E.M.F. dangers, as well as a mistake to outright dismiss the concern,” said Jim Kliesch, a senior engineer for the clean vehicles program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “Additional research would improve our understanding of the issue.”
The concern over high E.M.F. levels in hybrids has come not just from worrisome instrument readings, but also from drivers who say that their hybrids make them ill.
Neysa Linzer, 58, of Bulls Head in Staten Island, bought a new Honda Civic Hybrid in 2007 for the 200 miles a week she drove to visit grocery stores in her merchandising job for a supermarket chain. She said that the car reduced her gasoline use, but there were problems — her blood pressure rose and she fell asleep at the wheel three times, narrowly averting accidents.
“I never had a sleepiness problem before,” Ms. Linzer said, adding that it was her own conclusion, not a doctor’s, that the car was causing the symptoms.
Ms. Linzer asked Honda to provide her with shielding material for protection from the low-frequency fields, but the company declined her request last August, saying that its hybrid cars are “thoroughly evaluated” for E.M.F.’s before going into production.
Testing with a TriField meter led Brian Collins of Encinitas, Calif., to sell his 2001 Honda Insight just six months after he bought it — at a loss of $7,000. He said the driver was receiving “dangerously high” E.M.F. levels of up to 135 milligauss at the hip and up to 100 milligauss at the upper torso. These figures contrasted sharply with results from his Volkswagen van, which measured one to two milligauss.
Kent Shadwick, controller of purchasing services for the York Catholic District School Board in York, Ontario, evaluated the Toyota Prius for fleet use. Mr. Shadwick said it was tested at various speeds, and under hard braking and rapid acceleration, using a professional-quality gauss meter.
“The results that we saw were quite concerning,” he said. “We saw high levels in the vehicle for both the driver and left rear passenger, which has prompted us to explore shielding options and to consider advocating testing of different makes and models of hybrid vehicles.”
Lawrence Gust of Ventura, Calif., a consultant with a specialty in E.M.F.’s and electrical sensitivity, was one of the electrical engineers who tested Mr. Collins’s Insight in 2001. He agreed that the readings were high but did not want to speculate on whether they were harmful. “There are big blocks of high-amp power being moved around in a hybrid, the equivalent of horsepower,” he said. “I get a lot of clients who ask if they should buy hybrid electric cars, and I say the jury is still out.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/automobiles/27EMF.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&or- ef=slogin
Leave real early, ride real slow....
Just joshin' ya
I probably got really good fuel economy in the Park Ave on way back to Philly from Harrisburg because of the rain. I ran the car last night to my second job, filled up on my way home and it only took $11 worth, (barely more than 3 gallons). I noticed everybody was driving at a reasonable speed even when the weather was clear. Who needs speed limits? The gasoline market determines the speed limit.
Other observations: Carlisle itself was as packed with people or cars and a diner that we go to after the show had a pretty empty parking lot - weird for a car show weekend.
I think one of the problems is weight. My 2007 Cadillac DTS feels like a Panzer tank compared to earlier Cadillacs I've owned. I swear it weighs as much or not much less than my 1989 Cadillac Brougham which is a much larger car. One of my most fuel-efficient cars was my red 1994 DeVille. Even with a V-8, the car delivered a decent 25 MPG highway mileage.
While it may be true that other countries/regions may have less strict environmental conditions the parts and subassemblies manufacturerd there are miniscule in relation to the amount of pollution at an assembly plant or even more so by the fuel used by drivers and even more so by the entire petroleum industry from exploration to retailing.
1991 Brougham: 4282 pounds
2007 DTS: 4009 pounds
Interestingly, they're both practically the same size inside and get the same fuel economy numbers. Despite its extra bulk, the old bomber has a tighter turning circle and a bigger gas tank to its credit.
Or even in 1992?
Autoweek just did a comparo in its green issue between the 2008 Honda Fit and the 1992 Civic VX. The two are very similar in size, the only difference being that the Fit is ten inches taller.
They have almost identical 0-60 times, and the Fit weighs only 400 pounds more than the '92 Civic. Despite that, the best they could do with the Fit was 32/37 mpg (under the old rating system), compared to 43/51 for the Civic 15 years ago (also under the old system). It's pathetic, and it's because they are not even trying any more.
Or more accurately, they don't want their less complex small cars out-gas-saving their precious hybrid models costing $10K more.
When those late 80s/early 90s cars were being designed and built, everyone still remembered the oil shocks of the mid-70s and early 80s. There was still a focus on the consumer's part on fuel economy. The buyers forget quickly, and as soon as they do the automakers start to push other priorities on which they can better profit.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200804210430/FREE/160806841
PS it is not lost on me that the only difference in size between the VX and the Fit, besides the 400 pounds, is the ten inches of extra height. I can only guess at how much extra air the Fit has to push out of the way just to do the same job as the VX. This height increase in all cars brought on by the SUV boom is a problem for trying to rapidly increase fuel economy now. And before everyone jumps in with how the VX had manual this and that, the Fit has power everything, people want creature comforts now, blah blah blah, I am focusing on the weight gain specifically. Despite the addition of all those things mentioned, the weight increase is actually less than 400 pounds, and at 2400 or so the Fit is still almost the lightest production vehicle on the road today. More to the point, that's less than a 20% increase in weight vs the VX 15 years ago.
I am of the firm conviction that Honda just wasn't trying very hard to deliver good gas mileage in the Fit. All the automakers are equally guilty - they are not trying very hard. Look at all these TV ads now trumpeting their models that "make 30 mpg". 30 mpg highway???? How enormously pathetic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I imagine the transverse FWD setup and wide rims and tires on the DTS are the culprit of that wide turning circle.
One thing I find interesting is that, according to www.fueleconomy.gov, the 2008 DTS has 113 cubic feet of interior volume and 19 cubic feet of trunk space, whereas the '89 era Brougham has "only" 110 cubic feet of interior room and 20 cubic feet of trunk space. I think the Brougham would have more generous shoulder room and rear seat legroom, but the DTS would have greater headroom, which helps inflate the overall figure.
I've been in both types of car, and the old-school Brougham definitely feels a lot bigger inside to me, despite the fact that it's smaller according to the EPA. If the ceiling is already 2-3 inches away from my head, adding another inch to that dimension isn't going to do anything for me. But adding another inch or two to shoulder room is going to make the car feel bigger to me. The Brougham also has a lower beltline, bigger windows, and smaller pillars, so that probably helps it feel roomier, as well. And other aspects, such as how much the sides curve in, how badly the wheel wells intrude, or how much the dashboard juts in don't affect the actual published volume. However, they have a definite effect on useable interior room.
I dug up some old EPA stats that list my '79 5th Ave at 108 cubic feet of interior room and 21 cubic feet of trunk space. The old mastodon '74-78 style was only 107/22. Yet, my '79 feels pretty big inside, while those pre-downsized ones felt downright cavernous inside. Again, I guess it could just be that with my '79 the window area is large, the pillars are small, and the beltline is low. Plus, the dash slopes away pretty radically, there's no front wheel well intrusion, and the driveshaft and tranny hump are relatively small. The '78 style was a hardtop, so that might have helped it to feel even roomier. Plus, those pre-downsized styles had even less dashboard/wheelwell/transmission hump intrusion than the downsized models that followed them.
I'm guessing that air quality rules are even more strict now.
Here is the sentence in that story which matters the most:
The tests conducted by hybrid owners rarely approach the level of thoroughness of those run by automakers.
Toyota test the Prius at 1/300th of the Euro "safe" ratings. (that's pretty low)
I'm letting my kids ride in the backseat right by the batteries. There is NO danger. Take it from the millions of owners who are not showing ill effects rather than the one who said it made her "sleepy."
Puh-Frickin-Leeeze.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/telecom/2008-04-28-australia-cell-peopl- e_N.htm
What's the average cell phone bill? $30/month? or $360/year which could go towards gasoline.
Take it from the millions of owners who are not showing ill effects rather than the one who said it made her "sleepy."
Just how many millions of hybrid owners would that be?
This is crazy, its making our food we eat much more expensive and the travel we do by RV much more expensive.
My grandparents are cutting down, well all the people they travel with are cutting down all the smaller trips they take in their Diesel RV because they have to save more to go on longer trips... This is hurting the economy badly in the sense that they are not spending any of the money they would have at restraints and RV parks throughout the county. I am guessing that this is happening more and more for people that usually take vacations frequently.
I am tired of this oil war...
Want a hybrid? Pay more for the car and gas... (where are the savings, really?)
Have a diesel? Pay more... don't go on vacation.
Electric? Cant take that to Vegas... Anything out there appealing to me? No.
The huge magnetic fields generated by the batteries and electric motor in the Hybrid have made my daughter's hamster change from sleeping in the North-East corner of the cage to now sleeping in the South -West corner.
BTW the electric motor is under the hood in front of the engine. According to Farraday's law, no electric field can penetrate steel.
The reason automobiles are one of the safest place in a lightning storm is because of Farraday's law.
The cables from the electric motor to the batteries have one positive and one negative connection or current would not flow. This means that any magnetic fields generated would self cancel;.
The strength of the field at the Earth's surface ranges from less than 30 microteslas (0.3 gauss) in an area including most of South America and South Africa to over 60 microteslas (0.6 gauss) around the magnetic poles in northern Canada and south of Australia, and in part of Siberia. .3 gauss is 300 milli- Gauss. .6 Gauss is 600 milli- Gauss. Just what was the level of milli- Gauss that made that dude sell his hybrid. 100 to 120 milli- Gauss. He was no doubt measuring the earth's field
I have a theory :.
The intelligence of the universe is a constant. The population is increasing.
Actually, the NY Times did not post that ridiculous article on this forum. You Did.
Gary says, "Just how many millions of hybrid owners would that be?"
Um, more than 1 and less than 2. An answer which you know full well.
My kid's only failed when they were in the Gulf between Keys--actually out on a sailboat traveling from Seabase for a scout trip to Key West. Guess there wasn't a tower nearby in the water between Keys.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It depends on what you are now driving, what it's worth on a trade in, and what gas prices have to get to to make the gas savings of a hybrid worth while.
I will save about $160 a month at $4.00 a gallon.
It will be $203 a month at $5,00 a gallon ( next Year ? )
How much will a new car creally cost ?
Edit....OK, found it in the article you linked: "Indeed, Honda cannot sell the high-efficiency Civic VX in California, where current clean-air rules are most stringent. Instead, Honda will sell a Civic VX in that state with less fuel-efficient engines"
VTEC-E created such lean-burn conditions that NOx emissions were often very high. So they tweaked it for California, which is why the model here was only rated 43/51, and the federal model was rated 48/55 (per your NY Times article).
Funnily enough, when that model was introduced, Congress was considering raising CAFE standards again, and the domestics were ticked off that Honda had produced a 50 mpg car with no extraordinary measures, proving that there were less barriers to raising fuel economy standards than they claimed. :-P
Now ask Honda how many they sold. The VX got pulled after one generation - that was the hatchback. The coupe, labelled HX, soldiered on until 2005, but never sold well, not the entire time. The funny thing was it was scheduled for termination by Honda about a year before Katrina and the huge rises in gas prices. I am convinced that were they still selling an HX coupe today, it would be ROCKETING off dealer lots. Its price was still only around $15K when they discontinued it in 2005.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The induced electromagnetic force or EMF in any closed circuit is equal to the time rate of change of the magnetic flux linking the circuit.
He doesn't mention penetrating steel but you're probably right.
BTW, "The intelligence of the universe is a constant. The population is increasing." should certainly be a recognized law!
This is the thing, a new Yukon is about $30k... Most people can afford that. The hybrid is $50k.
Thats a pretty big jump from being on the affordable level and being way out of budget for alot of people. Its the principal cost of the car. So, can you spend $50k now... or have to deal with the price of fuel because $20k more financing is ridiculous to you.
From my standpoint in the industry I am in, most people are just buying cars right now and saving money on the purchase price... Not to try and save the environment, not to save money in the future. The economy is hurting right now, and they need to save money right now even if that means buy a car thats less efficient for the future.
That's the message from a couple of analytical energy industry trackers, both of whom, based on the surging oil prices, see considerably more pain at the pump than most drivers realize.
Gasoline nationally is in an accelerated upswing, having jumped to $3.58 a gallon from $3.50 in just the past week. In some parts of the country, including New York City and the West Coast, gas is already sporting a price tag above $4 a gallon. There was a pray-in at a Chevron station in San Francisco on Friday led by a minister asking God for cheaper gas, and an Arco gas station in San Mateo, Calif., has already raised its price to a sky-high $4.62.
His latest prediction of $200 oil is open to question, since it would undoubtedly create considerable global economic distress. Further, just about every energy expert I talk to cautions me to expect a sizable pullback in oil prices, maybe to between $50 and $70 a barrel, especially if there's a global economic slowdown.
http://www2.nysun.com/article/75363
How much can someone making shoes for 50 cents an hour afford to pay for gas? We are already seeing our system crumbling under the weight of high priced oil. The thing to remember "what goes up, must come down".
Producing retrofit kits would not be too difficult. This would create jobs, revitalize our economy and make a now derelict and undervalued part of our nation, due to outsourcing, a once again thriving community with a sense of pride.
Not if a bunch of suckers prove that they'll sell their children in order to pay the bill as it stands.
If you need the towing capacity, fine, but how about a Highlander/Edge type vehicle for $30k? Gets the mileage of the Yukon hybrid...
Whats funny is that we turned a VW rabbit into an electric vehicle when I was in HS. And also built an EV, that lasted about an hour going avg. 35mph... This was in 2000.
(No ones making retrofit kits that I know of)
I dont think the oil company's or the car makers give a crap about the people...
I did this 8 years ago as a HS student and they, or anyone for that matter cant figure out what to do to make things better, give me a break... All they care about is $$$.
Here you go: Electric Vehicle Conversions
Let us know how it turns out!
Of course, this recent trip to Spring Carlisle demonstrated a few things. People were driving a lot slower on the PA Turnpike, and this was before the rain. There were fewer folks attending the show than in years past. The diner we ate at later was quite empty. Heck, by the time I got home to Philly, I felt like a fool for going, but I did have a good time. I could've instead stayed home and went to work and made some money.
I mean, its a $20k option. This is the kind of pricing you see from Ferrari, or Bentley.
Someone that has a bunch of kids or is involved in a bunch of activities would definitely benefit from having a hybrid, but then they are docked for buying one?
Is the cost really more to produce these cars?
The intelligence of the universe is a constant. The population is increasing.
Very subtle. I like your humor.
Yes the restraints are only needed if you're in an RV a long time with the family members.
But seriously, if the country wants to conserve gas then you really shouldn't have people driving these sorts of vehicles around for recreational purposes. But I don't endorse any law that would force such a thing, or ban power-boating. People have the freedom to buy what they want and use fuel how they want as long as they can afford it. The market will work all on its, with increasing prices encouraging some to give up some of these uses.
I have looked at $500k and up fixers both in CA and Hawaii. When you take into consideration that when we had the bad rains a few years ago and several homes in Laguna Beach slid down the hill. It is put into perspective what the land is worth when those lots sold for as much as $27 million. So the best thing to do is buy up those homes in the hood when the prices are low. Fix them up and make a killing on the next housing boom...
Many folks were booted out of their rentals in the slums of San Diego, when they were sold for huge prices.
They will suffer because of the lack of traveling done by RVers.
That is cool, I get pumped up about this kind of stuff.
They are in California too, I dont know where Felton is but im going to check into this for sure.
So not worth it huh?