in the late 70's/early 80's nobody was having kids. many schools in my area closed due to lack of students to teach. the popularity of suv's coincides with the kid boom working it's way through the school systems. my high school sophomore is part of the largest class ever in our town. after that, the trend is down.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Imagine that, gasoline goes up a few pennies and the Feds want to rewrite the passenger car fuel efficiency standards. They though gasoline would be $2.26 in 2015 and only $2.51 in 2030. Spot on as usual.
We don't need to do anything as gasoline prices rise. U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary Peters has things under control.
Net savings in fuel = $100 billion Minus the cost to the big three (which will get passed on to us anyway) = $30.5 billion Actual savings = $69.5 billion U.S. population as I write this = 304,115,766 Dollars per person = $228.53
The sad part is these people are on our payroll. I am more convinced every day that we need to make a complete cleansing of our government. I read that two times and it made very little sense. We could do away with the DOE completely and the market will dictate what people drive. Or we can spend billions in tax dollars and accomplish less. This sums up the ignorance of the CAFE law.
"I think we achieved the right balance with that law," she said. "Is it a lot of money? Yes it absolutely is."
Not much irritates me more than the hypermilers that refuse to even get out of their way around town. Tho I try not to spool up the V70 2.5T too quickly myself.
Did a little experiment on the trip from Raleigh to Wilmington today... once I hit I-40 on the SE side of Raleigh, I set the cruise at 70mph. Will confirm on refueling, but the readout would indicate that I got just north of 30mpg, compared to my usual 28.something that goes with a 75-77mph cruise speed. Also found about 10 times more people exceeding the speed limit than driving slower. But I never was in fear of getting run over, tho it did seem that 72-73mph would have let me make cleaner passes.
What I do NOT want to see (should be popular here) is a knee-jerk lowering of speed limits. The old 55mph limit should NOT come back... there's plenty of gasoline to go around this time, but it's just expensive! I could live with 65-70 and stronger enforcement tho.
Now to see if I can still get the hi-test for under $4/gallon here tomorrow!
"Beware of altruism, it is based on self deception, the root of all evil" - Robert A, Heinlein. "If tempted by something that feels altruistic examine your motives and root out that self deception. Then if you still want to do it wallow in it." - Robert A. Hienlein You believe that hogwash? ''Altruism is synonymous with Philanthropy and Humanitarianism''-Thorndike Barnhart World Book Dictionary.
Relatively few homes are being foreclosed on, IIRC less than 1% of the homes out there. This is propaganda and does not reflect the true gravity of the economic situation it has created in the US. FYI, just saw a report on PBS that Stockton California has an astronomical 230% increase in foreclosures for this year. And it is not just in California but US wide. States like Indiana have a 10-20% foreclosure rate. Saving Bear Stearns from bankruptcy is just the tip of the iceburg. But I am glad to see the Fed is doing something about it, very smart considering the situation the US is in right now.
Unemployment is still rather low and lower than many analysts expected. 30,000 autoworkers from GM lost their jobs within the last 2 years with at least 8 major plants closing. A like number of Ford workers lost their jobs with at least 9 plants closing. Pfizer the largest US pharmaceutical company laid off 10,000 people most were Chemists and Chemical Engineers and closed 2 large plants in Michigan. Merck laid off 7000 people. This is just the tip of the iceburg. Those unemployment numbers do not talk about the impact these good paying jobs will do to the economy now that they are gone. By the way, multiply those numbers by 10, that is the number of subsidiary industries and workers also affected by those layoffs. It is not a pretty sight, prepare for hard times coming....
Oh I get it, ''take with force'' is the philosophy to solve the US oil problem. Are you kidding ? The US went into an already ''conquered'' Iraq and now $8 trillion dollars later can't even pull out or win the war. They are losing the war in the richest oil baring country in the middle east greater than Saudi Arabia. I think the US has had it with ''taking with force''. Besides Canada and Mexico are practically giving the oil away to the US. How about buying with force ? Doesn't that work ?? The US could just minimize business with the Saudi's and maximize business with its good trading partners. Let Chavez help those poor people. Columbia needs a change in government anyways, it is so corrupt. And Venezuela does export oil to the US, it's just that that oil is nationalized there and the profits go to the development of the country and it's people not the transnational corporations who would suck Venezuela dry. Chavez is a hero not a villain.
You are 100% correct regarding Chavez . Why is he demonized ? He paid off the International monetary Fund loans which in effect threw off the shackles of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT . Then he presented the oil companies with an ultimatum of accepting a smaller share of the country's resources and wealth . This was in contrast to the desires of the country's Elite and the oil companies . EXXON ( Rockefeller ) thought that he could fight against Chavez edicts and called upon the CIA to utilize their renown abilities to overthrow the Chavez regime . There was a coup and Chavez imprisoned . With-in 48 hours the poor people of the country freed Chavez and put him back in power . CIA attempts to overthrow Chavez continue . They tried their very best to control the outcome of the last election and failed so now they are using Columbia and the U.S. main stream media to justify a future invasion and regime change .
Since gaining power , Chavez has brought to his country's poor running water , sewer services , education , medical clinics , better food supply , better working conditions and " FREEDOM " . He has done this by the utilization of the country's recourses for the benefit of the people , not the Elite , Bankers and International Corporations . The proceeds from his changes have been spent wisely .
The ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT is concerned that this situation is spreading to other South American countries under their control and for good reason . It's occurring in spades .
Venezuela has the most democratic Government in the Western hemisphere . The U.S. has evolved into fascism .
" Also found about 10 times more people exceeding the speed limit than driving slower. "
We have the exact opposite here in ND. Must be the wide open spaces and the stress free lifestyle.
"What I do NOT want to see (should be popular here) is a knee-jerk lowering of speed limits. The old 55mph limit should NOT come back... "
It's coming. The days of 70 to 80 mph are numbered. I expect to see 65 mph in a few years in some states that are 70+. Semi trucks are slowing. Heck, even large ocean going container ships are slowing down.
Another example of what high prices are doing to the market. In April 2007 the average sale price for a pickup was $17k. Now the price is down to $14k with little sign that it will recover anytime soon.
And people said the market would not adjust.
And a quick check of AAA gasoline prices....It looks like Illinois and New York are neck and neck to see who will be the next state to average over $4 for RUG. Calif. is not far behind... Diesel in NY is only 16 cents away from $5....
Great! Johnny has dispensed with his lame attempts to peddle automotive snake oil, and now he's treating us to his left-wing political views. Hey, thanks, but if we wanted to hear socialist propoganda, we'd tune our televisions to NBC or your beloved PBS. If we want to hear something else, we visit places such as automotive forums.
That's called a clue. Here's another one:
Effective propoganda starts by covering the basics, one of which is SPELLING. When you post items such as "oil baring" instead of oil bearing, "Columbia" instead of Colombia, and "recourses" instead of resources, you detract from your already limited credibility.
And when you spout out conspiracy theories that involve "the CIA, the main stream media, bankers, and international corporations," readers begin to doubt that you're simply a concerned citizen trying to relate high gas prices to larger economic and political factors. Instead they think that you're some 14-year-old in his underwear on a computer in his parents' basement who has maxed out the stolen credit card number on internet porn sites, but he's too hyped up on Red Bull and pizza to fall asleep, and he thinks he can convince people that he's really smart by regurgitating things he read on the Daily Kos.
Seriously, if you believe that "Venezuela has the most democratic Government in the Western hemisphere" and that "the U.S. has evolved into fascism," then why don't you leave the U.S. and move to Venezuela? Hey, dude, you'd better do it while you still can. Just take one last bong hit and go. The black helicopters are coming, man!
And since "Chavez is a hero not a villain," your life will be much better in Caracas. Send us a postcard! .
"Relatively few homes are being foreclosed on, IIRC less than 1% of the homes out there."
This is propaganda and does not reflect the true gravity of the economic situation it has created in the US. FYI, just saw a report on PBS that Stockton California has an astronomical 230% increase in foreclosures for this year. And it is not just in California but US wide. States like Indiana have a 10-20% foreclosure rate.
I'm sorry, but I can't just let this slip by. The 'propaganda' is yours, not the original poster's. The original post is correct. The forclosure rate nationwide is roughly 1 in 200, or approximately 0.5%. The worst state in the nation, as of last report, was Nevada, with roughly 1 in 50, or about 2%.
A "10-20%" rate would be so out-there that I'm surprised anyone would believe it if they stopped and thought for a few moments, but I guess some people will believe whatever passes through their ears without any sort of 'reality check'. And then spread it around as truth. lol.
I'm always amazed by the notion that the current price of oil is driven primarily by speculation. In 1998 oil was twenty bucks per barrel. We know where it is now. It's hit this point due to tightness in supply due to technical, political, and most importantly, geological constraints. The speculative portion of the current price structure reflects these fundamentals, not the reverse.
No, it's hit this point because people are speculating that in the future oil will become even tighter and yet demand will still rise. That's why they're called oil futures and the task is called speculation.
And what are we doing in this country? The gov is talking about suing OPEC. Great idea:) But don't drill off the California coast or, heaven forbid, ANWR.
While both are a possibility, that simply forestalls the inevitable: that eventually, sooner or later, there won't be any more oil left. It may be best to keep both as a sort of emergency reserve to be tapped, and it's DEFINITELY important to work on alternatives, so we aren't caught with our pants down when the stuff DOES run out.
Since gaining power , Chavez has brought to his country's poor running water , sewer services , education , medical clinics , better food supply , better working conditions and " FREEDOM " . He has done this by the utilization of the country's recourses for the benefit of the people , not the Elite , Bankers and International Corporations . The proceeds from his changes have been spent wisely .
Just because a dictator does good things for his people doesn't make him any less of a dictator...or a jerk, which the guy is, in both cases. They want to have nationalized oil that's fine by me, but I want to see Chavez run in an actual CONTESTED election, with something other than his personal state-run media covering it.
To kind of drag this back on topic, it's very interesting to me that A: we say such nasty things about Chavez and yet still buy so much oil from Venezuela. And B: we happily buy most of the rest of our oil from dictatorships anyway. :shades:
Exactly how many democracies besides Brazil, Mexico, and Canada have major oil reserves? Maybe Russia, but their democracy status is a bit debatable at this point in time...
"Just because a dictator does good things for his people doesn't make him any less of a dictator"
Great point. What's one thing you always hear about Mussolini? "At least he got the trains to run on time." Many dictators obtain and retain power by fostering a 'good father to the poor' image, just like the tactics used by organized crime.
"No, it's hit this point because people are speculating that in the future oil will become even tighter and yet demand will still rise. That's why they're called oil futures and the task is called speculation."
Yes but the market was speculating on the price back when it was $20. Even if speculation was completely removed from the price, we would still be seeing record high oil prices, even when adjusted to inflation. But then the cost of oil is adding to the current inflationary trend
"While both are a possibility, that simply forestalls the inevitable: that eventually, sooner or later, there won't be any more oil left. It may be best to keep both as a sort of emergency reserve to be tapped, and it's DEFINITELY important to work on alternatives, so we aren't caught with our pants down when the stuff DOES run out."
I believe that we will effectively never run out of oil. It's all about production flows and what one is willing to pay for the stuff.
Speaking of production flows, I believe that there's a minimal flow rate required for the Alaskan pipeline... somewhere around 400,000 to 450,000 barrels per day. If the oil cools too much, it will cease to flow. Current flow rates are around 700,000 bpd. ANWR production will be required to keep the flows above the minimal level and it will probably take at least seven years to develop ANWR. We may not have that much time and the Trans Alaskan pipeline will be finished.
I believe that we will effectively never run out of oil. It's all about production flows and what one is willing to pay for the stuff.
Do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too? Oil is a FINITE resource, there's only X amount in the planet. Once it's gone, it's gone. We can both realistically and effectively run out. The HOPE is that we will find an alternative for a similar level of expense before that happens, but it's entirely possible that we will burn through every drop of oil we can get at first. especially with countries out there literally subsidizing oil use.
"Oil is a FINITE resource, there's only X amount in the planet. Once it's gone, it's gone. "
Well, you both are a bit correct. Light oil, the type that's easy to produce and refine, is becoming much harder to find. What we're seeing now at $100+/bbl is that the heavy, low-quality oils (think Canada tar sands and the Orinoco heavy oil fields) become economic, and there are huge volumes of those available. They cost a lot to produce and refine, though, so they drop out if oil prices retreat significantly. So, yes, there's a finite amount at, say $30/bbl, but there's a lot more at $100, and there will be even more at $200. These new volumes only become economic at high prices, though, and can't be quickly brought on stream.
"Well you'll need more fuel for electricity [for electric vehicles], and the cheapest fuel is coal, so I don't see how that makes environmentalists happy. "
The various "well-to-wheel" stats show that even with 100% coal-fired electricity, the average electric car (and hybrid for that matter) has lower emissions (particularly CO2). Well-to-wheel takes into consideration all aspects of harvesting the raw material (petroleum or coal), transport to power plants or refineries, creation of the energy (electric or gas), transport of that to the home (electric) or gas station, and mileage of the vehicle. If your region used other electricity generated from other sources (wind farms, hydro) or you have solar panels, it's even better. And it's even worse if you are using poor petroleum sources, that are energy intensive to harvest, such as the tar sands or heavy oil.
Also, considering most electric vehicle charging would take place at night, the power grid has plenty of capacity for the additional electric draw.
"The typical American expects a 4-dr car, able to carry some luggage and with a range of at least 300+ miles 65 mph using AC or heat, headlights, and stereo. I don't see any electric cars that can do this. "
As I've mentioned before, I agree that electric-only cars are not for everyone. The limiting range being the biggest issue. But many families have two vehicles anyway and most daily driving is well within the range of a electric (I think the statistic was about 30 miles a day for the average driver). Even if an electric was your only vehicles, a person could rent a car for longer trips if you only make one every few months. Again, it wouldn't work for everyone, but statistically, the range would work for most or at least fit into the needs of a two car household.
Nissan Motor Co., playing catch-up in fuel-efficient motoring, said Monday that it and NEC Corp. will invest 115 million dollars to mass produce new batteries for electric, hybrid and fuel-cell vehicles.
The push into advanced lithium-ion batteries comes as Japanese automakers invest in an array of new environmentally friendly car technologies amid soaring prices at the pump.
Nissan has been slower than rivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. to embrace petrol-electric hybrids, but it aims to become the industry leader in electric vehicles.
Nissan also aims to use the batteries in an electric vehicle to be launched in the United States and Japan in 2010, along with the first hybrid using its own technology.
Good point. We saw this in the 1970s. Refineries that couldn't be bothered with heavy crude in 1972, when easy-to-refine light crude was $3 per barrel, made the necessary changes to handle the heavy stuff after oil hit $15 per barrel in 1974.
How much oil is still out there is directly related to how much we're willing to pay to find it, extract it & process it. In time, it will run out, but that time is probably further out than people realize.
"Do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too? Oil is a FINITE resource, there's only X amount in the planet. Once it's gone, it's gone. We can both realistically and effectively run out. The HOPE is that we will find an alternative for a similar level of expense before that happens, but it's entirely possible that we will burn through every drop of oil we can get at first. especially with countries out there literally subsidizing oil use."
Sure there's a finite amount but it will never all be sucked out... at some point it will be too expensive to extract and it would be cheaper to just go back to slave labor.
One slave can generate about 1/20th of a hp for an extended period (or about 38 watts). That means you would need about 2000 slaves to generate 100 hp, which should be enough to move the family SUV down the freeway. When oil costs more than the slaves, then the oil will stay in the ground, hence there will always be some left.
And that's why we will never run out :P
Personally I doubt that global production of all liquids will ever exceed 90 million barrels per day. Conventional crude and condensate has been on a plateau for three years now at around 74 million barrels per day. And as for all the other liquids, such as syncrude from tar sands, the energy return is far less than conventional oil as the former is more of a mining operation than drilling op. Likewise all the deep water projects are going to be very costly and energy intense.
I believe that by this time next year we will know if Russian production is in terminal decline (they've been down three months in a row). As the biggest producer and the second largest exporter, Russian production will be virtually impossible to replace.
And we both know that Mexican production is just plain crashing. They've gone from our number two source for imports to number three, being replaced by our best buddies, the Saudis.
The only upside for me in all this is that I practice Malthusian investing and this has been my best year... at least for now.
One slave can generate about 1/20th of a hp for an extended period (or about 38 watts). That means you would need about 2000 slaves to generate 100 hp, which should be enough to move the family SUV down the freeway. When oil costs more than the slaves, then the oil will stay in the ground, hence there will always be some left.
All you have to do is look at the pyramids to see how much can be accomplished with slave energy. With the rapid increase in World population we will soon be to the place where human energy will be less expensive than other forms of energy. It would be interesting to get honest accounting on just how many people in the World are now treated like slaves. Many countries we consider allies have legal slavery. Mostly women and children.
I am having a hard time picturing in my mind 2000 people running down the Freeway with my Sequoia in tow. :shades:
One slave can generate about 1/20th of a hp for an extended period (or about 38 watts). That means you would need about 2000 slaves to generate 100 hp, which should be enough to move the family SUV down the freeway. When oil costs more than the slaves, then the oil will stay in the ground, hence there will always be some left.
It wouldn't take nearly that much. I mean, if you have two horses pulling a buckboard, that's only two horsepower. But I imagine that two horsepower buckboard would have about the same payload capacity as a half-ton truck. Maybe more. Only problem is, a horse can only run so fast. You could add more horses and be able to pull more, but you wouldn't be able to go any faster.
Similar results using people, except that a person tops out at a lower speed than a horse. And can't pull near as much, either. Although on level ground, a single person could probably at least get a car up to jogging speed. Until he tires out.
My car averages 27 mpg in mixed driving. I wonder how long it would take me to push or pull it 27 miles (on a nice level surface). A month?... three months?... All I know is that it make that four bucks a gallon seem like a pretty nice deal, especially in the winter, or when it's pouring rain, or very hot, or in other words most of the time.
A few years ago I remember reading an article about what Manhattan was like when horses had yet to be replaced by the ICE. One had the 'pleasure' of breathing in the sweet aroma of horse scat intermixed with the scent of rotting equine flesh as there were always dead horses laying about. After all, when your horse keels over, you can't just pick it up and drag it off or call AAA.
BTW, if you can get a car up to jogging speed you must have some serious leg power. I used to measure human hp with a metabolic cart and rarely found anyone that could manage enough power to do that, including me and I peaked out at just over 300 watts (but only for a minute or two). I sure couldn't do that now!
You could add more horses and be able to pull more, but you wouldn't be able to go any faster.
Horses are limited in the speed that they can move, but so are people, and so are internal combustion engines (that's why we have multi-speed and continuously-variable transmissions). You only need to harness horses (or mice, or people) to an appropriate-sized gearbox to get the job done.
Speaking of production flows, I believe that there's a minimal flow rate required for the Alaskan pipeline... somewhere around 400,000 to 450,000 barrels per day. If the oil cools too much, it will cease to flow
The Alaskan Oil Pipeline has an insulated Jacket with steam lines in it to keep the oil heated to flow. They put on thermal sensors all along the pipeline, If heated oil is detected, it shuts down the pipeline. Don't you think the engineers knew what they were doing ?
Macro Along your lines, I believe we will never run out of oil. Gasoline will evolve from a commodity to a niche product soon as alternative methods take hold (market driven). In other words, the global masses will use everything except oil long before supply can be depleted to ZERO.
Micro In the meantime, say hello to $5 by the end of the year! The producers guarantee it!
has an insulated Jacket with steam lines in it to keep the oil heated to flow
Heh, the insulated jacket around some sections of the pipe is there to keep the hot crude from thawing the ground and sinking the pipe. Some buried sections are refrigerated for that reason. I've seen a lot of sections of the Alyeska pipeline over the years, and I've never seen any steam venting from it. :shades:
"The Alaskan Oil Pipeline has an insulated Jacket with steam lines in it to keep the oil heated to flow. They put on thermal sensors all along the pipeline, If heated oil is detected, it shuts down the pipeline. Don't you think the engineers knew what they were doing ? "
I'm quite certain that they knew what they were doing. They built the pipiline for a range of flow rates, pressures, temps, and expansion/contraction along with an expected duration of use.
A couple of years ago in an interview Matthew Simmons mentioned the minimum flow rate which was required to maintain enough pressue to move the oil over the Brooks Range. Actually I believe that his figure was higher than the one I mentioned but I can't find the quote for you.
And we both know that Mexican production is just plain crashing. They've gone from our number two source for imports to number three, being replaced by our best buddies, the Saudis.
Interesting. As you probably know, PEMEX is barred by Mexican law from allowing outside investment in exploration & production. How much of the falloff in Mexican production is attributable to this ban?
"How much of the falloff in Mexican production is attributable to this ban? "
Much, if not all of the decline is because of this. The current administration in Mexico is trying to revise their laws to allow outside participation, but he's hit a brick wall, it is a VERY emotional issue in Mexico. Pemex has said it does not have enough internal expertise to develop its ultra-deep prospects in the Gulf.
...considering the discussions we've been having here. Today on the way into work I'm sitting at a stop light in my Prius first in line in front of a grade school as the children were being dropped off. You can guess what's coming up...sort of.
I look our my driver's side window and there's a BLACK Escalade bearing down on me, slowly, about 10' away from T-boning me as I'm sitting there. YIKES!!!!! It had come from the left street on the green light and should have passed in front of me to go into the school.
But just as I'm ready to flinch.... a WHITE Escalade comes across in front of me and turns left right into the BLACK Escalade stopping it from hitting me. It was so surreal because while the Black 'slade was off line and never should have been aimed at me....the White one was nowhere near being in its right place.
Soccer Moms in uncontrollable beasts dropping off kids at school, Vol II
"Soccer Moms dropping off kids in uncontrollable beasts, Vol II "
Here's Vol III: Suburban in front of me cuts across the corner of the drive and manages to high center on a 3' boulder placed there just to prevent this sort of thing - ouch!
Note this: "Even with those improvements, providing the energy to produce gasoline on a commercial scale — say, 750,000 gallons a day — would require a dedicated power plant, preferably a nuclear one, the scientists say. "
Sure, with enough energy, you can convert CO2 back into, say methane, but why waste all that energy doing that when you could hook that nuke up to the grid and charge up a buch of EVs and not burn the gas in the first place? Makes no sense. And watch out for those costs - they stuck in "operating costs" which indicates you need to get the nuke for free! Don't think so :sick:
cell-phone conversation(in a Valley Girl voice)..." I don't know, Charlotte, I thought I was reaching for the right pedal thingee...all of a sudden my SUV was going a different direction..."
"Why did that other SUV come right at me? Were we both in the right place at the wrong time?"
Nothing like 3 or 4 extra feet of length than they need and 1 or 2 feet more height than they need and one great powerful cell-phone to keep everything in line while blabbing...I mean....driving safely along. I'm thinking the popularity of 'Desperate Housewives' here if y'all catch my drift. :sick:
Well first its not hogwash, there is plenty of truth there.
Secondly you have to remember that a great deal of altruism (as well as philanthropy and humanitarianism) is really done for selfish reasons. Most people, if they admit it to themselfs or not, do these types of things for some sort of self gain. That self gain can be recognition, self promotion or public relations. That is what that quote is all about most altruistic acts are done for self gain.
Tell me do you really think the Carnegie Museum of Art would have even existed if it couldn't have the Carnegie name on it?
This is propaganda and does not reflect the true gravity of the economic situation it has created
You really shouldn't call something propaganda if your next breath breaths out your own propaganda. Like saying something has increased 230% without any baseline figures behind it
States like Indiana have a 10-20% foreclosure rate.
Indiana does not have a 10% foreclosure rate I believe you are reporting the foreclosure rate for sub prime loans and not all loans. FWIW it was recently reported that Indianas foreclosure rate had recently dropped.
30,000 autoworkers from GM lost their jobs within the last 2 years with at least 8 major plants closing.
Wow 30,000 auto workers out of a national work force of 153.7 million. Face it thats only a blip and unemployment is running around 5.1% which is near full employment.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm quite certain that they knew what they were doing.
You may want to search on Charles Hamel (aka Chuck Hamel) if you don't about his pipeline allegations, largely focusing on BP. BP tried to Nader him a la GM, but all his whistleblowing is still overshadowed by the biggest scandal, the faking of the x-rays of the Alyeska Pipeline welds. Of the 30,800 required x-rays of field welds, almost 4,000 were faked. The recent shutdown in '06 was because BP failed to maintain an oil transit line.
The stories you can still hear from guys who worked on the pipeline - crazy times.
That's not to say it wasn't properly designed, but actual construction often didn't follow the blueprints. PBS
What's interesting to me is how they keep moving the expected lifetime of the pipeline back. Back when they were buying the pipe from Japan, the pipeline was expected to last 25 years. Then it was 35 to 40 years. Now Alyeska says it'll last indefinitely, so long as it's maintained. They've probably reconfigured the minimum flow rates and temps several times by now too.
unemployment is running around 5.1% which is near full employment.
In the 80's full employment was defined as 6% unemployment. Anything under that was considered inflationary. With 5.1% unemployment anyone who can't find a job just isn't trying. Now if you want a job that's really easy and fun, requires no skills and pays a lot then your job search may be a little more difficult.
You really shouldn't call something propaganda if your next breath breaths out your own propaganda. Like saying something has increased 230% without any baseline figures behind it
I think he might have meant individual states. For instance, California's foreclosure rate has increased 213% since the same period last year. Nationally, the foreclosure rate is up 112% since the same time last year.
Thank you, I wanted to correct all those errors and did not know if it was worth the effort.
most altruistic acts are done for self gain.
That is Very true. I remember Ted Turner challenged all the other billionaires to match some big philanthropic gift he gave. That was how that tightwad Bill Gates got into giving. You can bet they use those charitable funds for self promotion. That and tax deductions or shelters.
Yes the Alaska Pipeline is insulated to keep the oil warm and protect the environment. Most of the crude comes out of the well at about 185 degrees F. The pump stations reheat it to keep it flowing on its 800+ mile trip. The state set the flow rate minimum at 1 million barrels per day. I am not sure what the current agreement is. I know the oil companies were trying to get that lowered back in the 1990s when the price was in the toilet. They were paying the state $6 per barrel as part of the original agreement. They were not making much money when the price went down to just under $10.
I don't think that's quite right either. The friction of the crude against the pipe keeps the oil hot and the pumps themselves generate heat. Alyeska Alaska Pipeline and Global Warming
I've read elsewhere that the oil is cooled to 120 degrees before going into the pipe; that link above says it heads to Valdez at 160 degrees, but I think the link is wrong. I also read somewhere that if the pipeline were shut down in the middle of winter, it'd still take several months for the oil in the pipe to congeal.
Alyeska burns a lot of fuel keeping the oil moving, but I don't think any energy is spent to intentionally heat the oil to keep it flowing. I guess we're getting a bit far off-topic, but I'd like to see a link that says otherwise.
People would be surprised to learn of all the buried gasoline pipelines around the country. I bet we start seeing headines soon where farmers or ranchers start tapping some of these gasoline lines in their back 40 to run the family pickup.
Comments
Waynes World II?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
the popularity of suv's coincides with the kid boom working it's way through the school systems. my high school sophomore is part of the largest class ever in our town. after that, the trend is down.
Imagine that, gasoline goes up a few pennies and the Feds want to rewrite the passenger car fuel efficiency standards. They though gasoline would be $2.26 in 2015 and only $2.51 in 2030. Spot on as usual.
We don't need to do anything as gasoline prices rise. U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary Peters has things under control.
Net savings in fuel = $100 billion
Minus the cost to the big three (which will get passed on to us anyway) = $30.5 billion
Actual savings = $69.5 billion
U.S. population as I write this = 304,115,766
Dollars per person = $228.53
"I think we achieved the right balance with that law," she said. "Is it a lot of money? Yes it absolutely is."
Not much irritates me more than the hypermilers that refuse to even get out of their way around town. Tho I try not to spool up the V70 2.5T too quickly myself.
Did a little experiment on the trip from Raleigh to Wilmington today... once I hit I-40 on the SE side of Raleigh, I set the cruise at 70mph. Will confirm on refueling, but the readout would indicate that I got just north of 30mpg, compared to my usual 28.something that goes with a 75-77mph cruise speed. Also found about 10 times more people exceeding the speed limit than driving slower. But I never was in fear of getting run over, tho it did seem that 72-73mph would have let me make cleaner passes.
What I do NOT want to see (should be popular here) is a knee-jerk lowering of speed limits. The old 55mph limit should NOT come back... there's plenty of gasoline to go around this time, but it's just expensive! I could live with 65-70 and stronger enforcement tho.
Now to see if I can still get the hi-test for under $4/gallon here tomorrow!
"If tempted by something that feels altruistic examine your motives and root out that self deception. Then if you still want to do it wallow in it." - Robert A. Hienlein
You believe that hogwash?
''Altruism is synonymous with Philanthropy and Humanitarianism''-Thorndike Barnhart World Book Dictionary.
Relatively few homes are being foreclosed on, IIRC less than 1% of the homes out there.
This is propaganda and does not reflect the true gravity of the economic situation it has created in the US. FYI, just saw a report on PBS that Stockton California has an astronomical 230% increase in foreclosures for this year. And it is not just in California but US wide. States like Indiana have a 10-20% foreclosure rate. Saving Bear Stearns from bankruptcy is just the tip of the iceburg. But I am glad to see the Fed is doing something about it, very smart considering the situation the US is in right now.
Unemployment is still rather low and lower than many analysts expected.
30,000 autoworkers from GM lost their jobs within the last 2 years with at least 8 major plants closing. A like number of Ford workers lost their jobs with at least 9 plants closing. Pfizer the largest US pharmaceutical company laid off 10,000 people most were Chemists and Chemical Engineers and closed 2 large plants in Michigan. Merck laid off 7000 people. This is just the tip of the iceburg. Those unemployment numbers do not talk about the impact these good paying jobs will do to the economy now that they are gone. By the way, multiply those numbers by 10, that is the number of subsidiary industries and workers also affected by those layoffs. It is not a pretty sight, prepare for hard times coming....
Are you kidding ? The US went into an already ''conquered'' Iraq and now $8 trillion dollars later can't even pull out or win the war. They are losing the war in the richest oil baring country in the middle east greater than Saudi Arabia. I think the US has had it with ''taking with force''. Besides Canada and Mexico are practically giving the oil away to the US. How about buying with force ? Doesn't that work ?? The US could just minimize business with the Saudi's and maximize business with its good trading partners. Let Chavez help those poor people. Columbia needs a change in government anyways, it is so corrupt. And Venezuela does export oil to the US, it's just that that oil is nationalized there and the profits go to the development of the country and it's people not the transnational corporations who would suck Venezuela dry. Chavez is a hero not a villain.
For me I have to buy a less powerful car...if I have 100hp i'll use it.
Same for 200.300.400...or even 600.
Gotta be the first guy away
of accepting a smaller share of the country's resources and wealth . This was in contrast to the desires of the country's Elite and the oil companies . EXXON ( Rockefeller ) thought that he could fight against Chavez edicts and called upon the CIA to utilize their renown abilities to overthrow the Chavez regime . There was a coup and Chavez imprisoned . With-in 48 hours the poor people of the country freed Chavez and put him back in power . CIA attempts to overthrow Chavez continue . They tried their very best to control the outcome of the last election and failed so now they are using Columbia and the U.S. main stream media to justify a future invasion and regime change .
Since gaining power , Chavez has brought to his country's poor running water , sewer services , education , medical clinics , better food supply , better working conditions and " FREEDOM " . He has done this by the utilization of the country's recourses for the benefit of the people , not the Elite , Bankers and International Corporations . The proceeds from his changes have been spent wisely .
The ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT is concerned that this situation is spreading to other South American countries under their control and for good reason . It's occurring in spades .
Venezuela has the most democratic Government in the Western hemisphere . The U.S. has evolved into fascism .
We have the exact opposite here in ND. Must be the wide open spaces and the stress free lifestyle.
"What I do NOT want to see (should be popular here) is a knee-jerk lowering of speed limits. The old 55mph limit should NOT come back... "
It's coming. The days of 70 to 80 mph are numbered. I expect to see 65 mph in a few years in some states that are 70+. Semi trucks are slowing. Heck, even large ocean going container ships are slowing down.
Another example of what high prices are doing to the market. In April 2007 the average sale price for a pickup was $17k. Now the price is down to $14k with little sign that it will recover anytime soon.
And people said the market would not adjust.
And a quick check of AAA gasoline prices....It looks like Illinois and New York are neck and neck to see who will be the next state to average over $4 for RUG. Calif. is not far behind... Diesel in NY is only 16 cents away from $5....
What would Robin say to Batman in this situation?
Holy atomic pile, Batman!
That's called a clue. Here's another one:
Effective propoganda starts by covering the basics, one of which is SPELLING. When you post items such as "oil baring" instead of oil bearing, "Columbia" instead of Colombia, and "recourses" instead of resources, you detract from your already limited credibility.
And when you spout out conspiracy theories that involve "the CIA, the main stream media, bankers, and international corporations," readers begin to doubt that you're simply a concerned citizen trying to relate high gas prices to larger economic and political factors. Instead they think that you're some 14-year-old in his underwear on a computer in his parents' basement who has maxed out the stolen credit card number on internet porn sites, but he's too hyped up on Red Bull and pizza to fall asleep, and he thinks he can convince people that he's really smart by regurgitating things he read on the Daily Kos.
Seriously, if you believe that "Venezuela has the most democratic Government in the Western hemisphere" and that "the U.S. has evolved into fascism," then why don't you leave the U.S. and move to Venezuela? Hey, dude, you'd better do it while you still can. Just take one last bong hit and go. The black helicopters are coming, man!
And since "Chavez is a hero not a villain," your life will be much better in Caracas. Send us a postcard!
.
This is propaganda and does not reflect the true gravity of the economic situation it has created in the US. FYI, just saw a report on PBS that Stockton California has an astronomical 230% increase in foreclosures for this year. And it is not just in California but US wide. States like Indiana have a 10-20% foreclosure rate.
I'm sorry, but I can't just let this slip by. The 'propaganda' is yours, not the original poster's. The original post is correct. The forclosure rate nationwide is roughly 1 in 200, or approximately 0.5%. The worst state in the nation, as of last report, was Nevada, with roughly 1 in 50, or about 2%.
A "10-20%" rate would be so out-there that I'm surprised anyone would believe it if they stopped and thought for a few moments, but I guess some people will believe whatever passes through their ears without any sort of 'reality check'. And then spread it around as truth. lol.
No, it's hit this point because people are speculating that in the future oil will become even tighter and yet demand will still rise. That's why they're called oil futures and the task is called speculation.
And what are we doing in this country? The gov is talking about suing OPEC. Great idea:) But don't drill off the California coast or, heaven forbid, ANWR.
While both are a possibility, that simply forestalls the inevitable: that eventually, sooner or later, there won't be any more oil left. It may be best to keep both as a sort of emergency reserve to be tapped, and it's DEFINITELY important to work on alternatives, so we aren't caught with our pants down when the stuff DOES run out.
When did we start talking about Midway? Or are you referring to the Planet of the Apes? :shades:
Just because a dictator does good things for his people doesn't make him any less of a dictator...or a jerk, which the guy is, in both cases. They want to have nationalized oil that's fine by me, but I want to see Chavez run in an actual CONTESTED election, with something other than his personal state-run media covering it.
To kind of drag this back on topic, it's very interesting to me that A: we say such nasty things about Chavez and yet still buy so much oil from Venezuela. And B: we happily buy most of the rest of our oil from dictatorships anyway. :shades:
Exactly how many democracies besides Brazil, Mexico, and Canada have major oil reserves? Maybe Russia, but their democracy status is a bit debatable at this point in time...
Great point. What's one thing you always hear about Mussolini? "At least he got the trains to run on time." Many dictators obtain and retain power by fostering a 'good father to the poor' image, just like the tactics used by organized crime.
Yes but the market was speculating on the price back when it was $20. Even if speculation was completely removed from the price, we would still be seeing record high oil prices, even when adjusted to inflation. But then the cost of oil is adding to the current inflationary trend
"While both are a possibility, that simply forestalls the inevitable: that eventually, sooner or later, there won't be any more oil left. It may be best to keep both as a sort of emergency reserve to be tapped, and it's DEFINITELY important to work on alternatives, so we aren't caught with our pants down when the stuff DOES run out."
I believe that we will effectively never run out of oil. It's all about production flows and what one is willing to pay for the stuff.
Speaking of production flows, I believe that there's a minimal flow rate required for the Alaskan pipeline... somewhere around 400,000 to 450,000 barrels per day. If the oil cools too much, it will cease to flow. Current flow rates are around 700,000 bpd. ANWR production will be required to keep the flows above the minimal level and it will probably take at least seven years to develop ANWR. We may not have that much time and the Trans Alaskan pipeline will be finished.
Do you believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too? Oil is a FINITE resource, there's only X amount in the planet. Once it's gone, it's gone. We can both realistically and effectively run out. The HOPE is that we will find an alternative for a similar level of expense before that happens, but it's entirely possible that we will burn through every drop of oil we can get at first. especially with countries out there literally subsidizing oil use.
Very well said. I like your stile, I mean STYLE :shades:
Well, you both are a bit correct. Light oil, the type that's easy to produce and refine, is becoming much harder to find. What we're seeing now at $100+/bbl is that the heavy, low-quality oils (think Canada tar sands and the Orinoco heavy oil fields) become economic, and there are huge volumes of those available. They cost a lot to produce and refine, though, so they drop out if oil prices retreat significantly. So, yes, there's a finite amount at, say $30/bbl, but there's a lot more at $100, and there will be even more at $200. These new volumes only become economic at high prices, though, and can't be quickly brought on stream.
The various "well-to-wheel" stats show that even with 100% coal-fired electricity, the average electric car (and hybrid for that matter) has lower emissions (particularly CO2). Well-to-wheel takes into consideration all aspects of harvesting the raw material (petroleum or coal), transport to power plants or refineries, creation of the energy (electric or gas), transport of that to the home (electric) or gas station, and mileage of the vehicle. If your region used other electricity generated from other sources (wind farms, hydro) or you have solar panels, it's even better. And it's even worse if you are using poor petroleum sources, that are energy intensive to harvest, such as the tar sands or heavy oil.
Also, considering most electric vehicle charging would take place at night, the power grid has plenty of capacity for the additional electric draw.
"The typical American expects a 4-dr car, able to carry some luggage and with a range of at least 300+ miles 65 mph using AC or heat, headlights, and stereo. I don't see any electric cars that can do this. "
As I've mentioned before, I agree that electric-only cars are not for everyone. The limiting range being the biggest issue. But many families have two vehicles anyway and most daily driving is well within the range of a electric (I think the statistic was about 30 miles a day for the average driver). Even if an electric was your only vehicles, a person could rent a car for longer trips if you only make one every few months. Again, it wouldn't work for everyone, but statistically, the range would work for most or at least fit into the needs of a two car household.
The push into advanced lithium-ion batteries comes as Japanese automakers invest in an array of new environmentally friendly car technologies amid soaring prices at the pump.
Nissan has been slower than rivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. to embrace petrol-electric hybrids, but it aims to become the industry leader in electric vehicles.
Nissan also aims to use the batteries in an electric vehicle to be launched in the United States and Japan in 2010, along with the first hybrid using its own technology.
How much oil is still out there is directly related to how much we're willing to pay to find it, extract it & process it. In time, it will run out, but that time is probably further out than people realize.
Sure there's a finite amount but it will never all be sucked out... at some point it will be too expensive to extract and it would be cheaper to just go back to slave labor.
One slave can generate about 1/20th of a hp for an extended period (or about 38 watts). That means you would need about 2000 slaves to generate 100 hp, which should be enough to move the family SUV down the freeway. When oil costs more than the slaves, then the oil will stay in the ground, hence there will always be some left.
And that's why we will never run out :P
Personally I doubt that global production of all liquids will ever exceed 90 million barrels per day. Conventional crude and condensate has been on a plateau for three years now at around 74 million barrels per day. And as for all the other liquids, such as syncrude from tar sands, the energy return is far less than conventional oil as the former is more of a mining operation than drilling op. Likewise all the deep water projects are going to be very costly and energy intense.
I believe that by this time next year we will know if Russian production is in terminal decline (they've been down three months in a row). As the biggest producer and the second largest exporter, Russian production will be virtually impossible to replace.
And we both know that Mexican production is just plain crashing. They've gone from our number two source for imports to number three, being replaced by our best buddies, the Saudis.
The only upside for me in all this is that I practice Malthusian investing and this has been my best year... at least for now.
All you have to do is look at the pyramids to see how much can be accomplished with slave energy. With the rapid increase in World population we will soon be to the place where human energy will be less expensive than other forms of energy. It would be interesting to get honest accounting on just how many people in the World are now treated like slaves. Many countries we consider allies have legal slavery. Mostly women and children.
I am having a hard time picturing in my mind 2000 people running down the Freeway with my Sequoia in tow. :shades:
It wouldn't take nearly that much. I mean, if you have two horses pulling a buckboard, that's only two horsepower. But I imagine that two horsepower buckboard would have about the same payload capacity as a half-ton truck. Maybe more. Only problem is, a horse can only run so fast. You could add more horses and be able to pull more, but you wouldn't be able to go any faster.
Similar results using people, except that a person tops out at a lower speed than a horse. And can't pull near as much, either. Although on level ground, a single person could probably at least get a car up to jogging speed. Until he tires out.
A few years ago I remember reading an article about what Manhattan was like when horses had yet to be replaced by the ICE. One had the 'pleasure' of breathing in the sweet aroma of horse scat intermixed with the scent of rotting equine flesh as there were always dead horses laying about. After all, when your horse keels over, you can't just pick it up and drag it off or call AAA.
BTW, if you can get a car up to jogging speed you must have some serious leg power. I used to measure human hp with a metabolic cart and rarely found anyone that could manage enough power to do that, including me and I peaked out at just over 300 watts (but only for a minute or two). I sure couldn't do that now!
Horses are limited in the speed that they can move, but so are people, and so are internal combustion engines (that's why we have multi-speed and continuously-variable transmissions). You only need to harness horses (or mice, or people) to an appropriate-sized gearbox to get the job done.
Gotta be my favorite use of the word "only" in a long time :P
Read about it here: Horse-powered bus
p.s. - if you get a chance, watch the video, it's a hoot!
The Alaskan Oil Pipeline has an insulated Jacket with steam lines in it to keep the oil heated to flow. They put on thermal sensors all along the pipeline, If heated oil is detected, it shuts down the pipeline.
Don't you think the engineers knew what they were doing ?
Along your lines, I believe we will never run out of oil. Gasoline will evolve from a commodity to a niche product soon as alternative methods take hold (market driven). In other words, the global masses will use everything except oil long before supply can be depleted to ZERO.
Micro
In the meantime, say hello to $5 by the end of the year! The producers guarantee it!
I should have never sold CVX last year!
Regards,
OW
Heh, the insulated jacket around some sections of the pipe is there to keep the hot crude from thawing the ground and sinking the pipe. Some buried sections are refrigerated for that reason. I've seen a lot of sections of the Alyeska pipeline over the years, and I've never seen any steam venting from it. :shades:
Pipeline Engineering
Don't you think the engineers knew what they were doing ? "
I'm quite certain that they knew what they were doing. They built the pipiline for a range of flow rates, pressures, temps, and expansion/contraction along with an expected duration of use.
A couple of years ago in an interview Matthew Simmons mentioned the minimum flow rate which was required to maintain enough pressue to move the oil over the Brooks Range. Actually I believe that his figure was higher than the one I mentioned but I can't find the quote for you.
Interesting. As you probably know, PEMEX is barred by Mexican law from allowing outside investment in exploration & production. How much of the falloff in Mexican production is attributable to this ban?
Much, if not all of the decline is because of this. The current administration in Mexico is trying to revise their laws to allow outside participation, but he's hit a brick wall, it is a VERY emotional issue in Mexico. Pemex has said it does not have enough internal expertise to develop its ultra-deep prospects in the Gulf.
I look our my driver's side window and there's a BLACK Escalade bearing down on me, slowly, about 10' away from T-boning me as I'm sitting there. YIKES!!!!! It had come from the left street on the green light and should have passed in front of me to go into the school.
But just as I'm ready to flinch.... a WHITE Escalade comes across in front of me and turns left right into the BLACK Escalade stopping it from hitting me. It was so surreal because while the Black 'slade was off line and never should have been aimed at me....the White one was nowhere near being in its right place.
Soccer Moms in uncontrollable beasts dropping off kids at school, Vol II
Here's Vol III: Suburban in front of me cuts across the corner of the drive and manages to high center on a 3' boulder placed there just to prevent this sort of thing - ouch!
Sure, with enough energy, you can convert CO2 back into, say methane, but why waste all that energy doing that when you could hook that nuke up to the grid and charge up a buch of EVs and not burn the gas in the first place? Makes no sense. And watch out for those costs - they stuck in "operating costs" which indicates you need to get the nuke for free! Don't think so :sick:
"Why did that other SUV come right at me? Were we both in the right place at the wrong time?"
Nothing like 3 or 4 extra feet of length than they need and 1 or 2 feet more height than they need and one great powerful cell-phone to keep everything in line while blabbing...I mean....driving safely along. I'm thinking the popularity of 'Desperate Housewives' here if y'all catch my drift. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Well first its not hogwash, there is plenty of truth there.
Secondly you have to remember that a great deal of altruism (as well as philanthropy and humanitarianism) is really done for selfish reasons. Most people, if they admit it to themselfs or not, do these types of things for some sort of self gain. That self gain can be recognition, self promotion or public relations. That is what that quote is all about most altruistic acts are done for self gain.
Tell me do you really think the Carnegie Museum of Art would have even existed if it couldn't have the Carnegie name on it?
This is propaganda and does not reflect the true gravity of the economic situation it has created
You really shouldn't call something propaganda if your next breath breaths out your own propaganda. Like saying something has increased 230% without any baseline figures behind it
States like Indiana have a 10-20% foreclosure rate.
Indiana does not have a 10% foreclosure rate I believe you are reporting the foreclosure rate for sub prime loans and not all loans. FWIW it was recently reported that Indianas foreclosure rate had recently dropped.
30,000 autoworkers from GM lost their jobs within the last 2 years with at least 8 major plants closing.
Wow 30,000 auto workers out of a national work force of 153.7 million. Face it thats only a blip and unemployment is running around 5.1% which is near full employment.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You may want to search on Charles Hamel (aka Chuck Hamel) if you don't about his pipeline allegations, largely focusing on BP. BP tried to Nader him a la GM, but all his whistleblowing is still overshadowed by the biggest scandal, the faking of the x-rays of the Alyeska Pipeline welds. Of the 30,800 required x-rays of field welds, almost 4,000 were faked. The recent shutdown in '06 was because BP failed to maintain an oil transit line.
The stories you can still hear from guys who worked on the pipeline - crazy times.
That's not to say it wasn't properly designed, but actual construction often didn't follow the blueprints. PBS
What's interesting to me is how they keep moving the expected lifetime of the pipeline back. Back when they were buying the pipe from Japan, the pipeline was expected to last 25 years. Then it was 35 to 40 years. Now Alyeska says it'll last indefinitely, so long as it's maintained. They've probably reconfigured the minimum flow rates and temps several times by now too.
In the 80's full employment was defined as 6% unemployment. Anything under that was considered inflationary. With 5.1% unemployment anyone who can't find a job just isn't trying. Now if you want a job that's really easy and fun, requires no skills and pays a lot then your job search may be a little more difficult.
I think he might have meant individual states. For instance, California's foreclosure rate has increased 213% since the same period last year. Nationally, the foreclosure rate is up 112% since the same time last year.
Home Foreclosure Rate Continues Ugly Climb
Housing Slump May Exceed Depression
Housing Prices Drop at Fastest Pace Ever
Vacant Homes for Sale Hit New Record High
most altruistic acts are done for self gain.
That is Very true. I remember Ted Turner challenged all the other billionaires to match some big philanthropic gift he gave. That was how that tightwad Bill Gates got into giving. You can bet they use those charitable funds for self promotion. That and tax deductions or shelters.
I don't think that's quite right either. The friction of the crude against the pipe keeps the oil hot and the pumps themselves generate heat. Alyeska Alaska Pipeline and Global Warming
I've read elsewhere that the oil is cooled to 120 degrees before going into the pipe; that link above says it heads to Valdez at 160 degrees, but I think the link is wrong. I also read somewhere that if the pipeline were shut down in the middle of winter, it'd still take several months for the oil in the pipe to congeal.
Alyeska burns a lot of fuel keeping the oil moving, but I don't think any energy is spent to intentionally heat the oil to keep it flowing. I guess we're getting a bit far off-topic, but I'd like to see a link that says otherwise.
People would be surprised to learn of all the buried gasoline pipelines around the country. I bet we start seeing headines soon where farmers or ranchers start tapping some of these gasoline lines in their back 40 to run the family pickup.