Are gas prices fueling your pain?

kernick

Or what you're filling the tank on is very small. Instead of a 4,000 Lb vehicle, we might end up with more "personal" vehicles -mini or micro cars. Maybe the typical vehicle is a 2-seat enclosed motorcycle - still ICE - 500cc with 25 hp? So we control the price by reducing demand significantly.

I know I could reduce my gasoline usage by 50% if I wanted to.Also this year I can burn 1,000 gal. of oil or 200 gal. to heat my house. it depends how much I feel like feeding the wood-stove.

If I was living on a tight budget meaning no extra money, I could also reduce my monthly bills:
1) I'd ditch the house-phone and just use my cell-phone. $35/month x 12 = $420

2) Turn off the cable TV - $75 x 12 = $900

3) Reduce how much I eat out $50/month x 12 = $600

4) slower Internet service - $40 to $20, save $240/yr

So there's an easy $2,000 or 500 gal. year that most people could afford to cutback (if you have to).

larsb

Like I said - WE WILL ADAPT.

The technology for doing what I said is already around and already fairly cheap.

In ten years or more, when low end EVs/PHEVs are $15K new, then whatever needs to be done to accommodate apartment dwellers WILL BE DONE.

stever

I'm not sure where I'd cut - no cell, no cable, rarely eat out since my wife got diagnosed with a bunch of food allergies, and currently getting free internet. I'd have to turn the hot tub off I guess.

I'm about out of wood after buying 5+ cords about 6 years ago for $500 for the basement wood stove.

A lot of y'all have been urging a topic name change now that many are paying over $4 a gallon for gas. "Eat or Get Gas?" was over-ruled however, so don't go there. :P

Let's try this new one on for size. Shoot us an email if you have an even punnier one.

larsb

My final statement stands, sans further arguments: If EVs/PHEVS become affordable to the masses, both the people and the infrastructure will ADAPT, as they always have. We adapted from walking to horses, and from horse-drawn buggies to cars, adapted to trains and to long-haul trucks. Have faith my friend.

snakeweasel

Well some just live on a single income (their spouse works) some live off of savings (think early retirement) others do have income (thing underground economy).

snakeweasel

Does anyone really work for minimum wage in this country?

Not sure what they are paying right now but a few years back I recall fast food places paying $8+ an hour, also the local home improvement place was looking for help at $10 an hour.

tedebear

but i am not even going to check out your links and you know why

Apparently someone removed my reply so I'll post it again. :mad:

Anyway, no, I do not know why you cannot spend the 60 seconds it would take to read the links I posted. They are stories from the AP that anyone can find on MSNBC.

Someone else accused people of posting ridiculous foreclosure numbers and related downhill economy data with no proof. All I did was provide the resources to verify the information.

avalon02wh

"How many people live or farm ON glaciers vs. OFF glaciers? I'll be glad when they're gone, and maybe we'll find a lot of resources underneath,.."

No, you won't be glad. Glaciers are an important source of water around the world. A really, really, really important source of water.

http://www.relocalize.net/node/897
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/aug/29/glaciers.climatechange
"The effects of glacier melt are expected to be severe. Hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Latin America are dependent on glacier water. A reduction in runoff will affect the ability to irrigate crops and will reduce summer stream flows to keep dams and reservoirs replenished. In Norway, the Alps, and the Pacific north-west, glacier runoff is important for hydropower."

1stpik

"I could see a flat fee/year/vehicle. You register the electric car - write a check for $500 to the feds."

I think you have the wrong idea. The feds will pay US to buy electric cars.

When I bought my Civic Hybrid, the feds sent me an extra $2,100. That sure knocked a chunk off the purchase price!

The states will all whine about not getting "their" taxes from gasoline. And they'll try to come up with some new scam to extort money from people who don't buy gas. But I don't believe they'll get away with it.

The people are fed up with the scam they're already suffering with oil and gas prices. They're not going to tolerate another one just because the states hitched their horses to the wrong wagon.

larsb

I don't know about the"Feds" charging people to register their cars, but hey, in Arizona, people frequently pay that much for a year of state registration. Any car that costs more than about $40K, the second year registration fees approach $500. The fees are based on MSRP and decline a certain percentage each year.

In July of 2004 I paid $452 to the State of AZ for registering my Avalanche for one year. In 2003 it was $580.

gagrice

In ten years or more, when low end EVs/PHEVs are $15K new

I am glad you added "or more". I don't think you will ever see in the US an EV or PHEV for $15k. Unless you are talking about the Xebra that can be had for about $12k with lead acid batteries for a 30 mile range and a top speed of 40 MPH.

larsb

Never say never my friend. Battery technology will eventually have enormous breakthroughs. It will happen. Might be 2020, but it WILL happen.

And remember: it's just a matter of time before the General Public gets convinced that a car with 40 miles range is enough (IT IS ENOUGH) for most people's commutes. It's just an attitude thing with the public, since we are used to cars which go 300-700 miles on a tank and not just 40 miles.

explorerx4

many people own their homes outright(no mortgage). yes, they are actually out there.

dieselone

many people own their homes outright(no mortgage). yes, they are actually out there.

Yes they are. A good friend of mine and his wife paid their $250k house off in 10 years. They are in their mid 30's and live completely debt free. He and his wife both make over $100k/yr which certainly helps. They live off his income and save hers. They don't live like they have $300k/yr in income and that will allow them to achieve early retirement.

dieselone

While I certainly am not happy with current gas prices like most people, it hasn't effected our budget or had an impact on any trips. We spend an avg. of $400 month on gas and we don't have any car payments. If gas went down to $2 (which of course it won't) it would mean an extra $200/month and hardly noticeable.

At the same time I try not to waste gas. I try to combine trips where I can and I have put off buying a new or newer full size SUV. I'm keeping the one I've got until it drops dead. I'm thinking of buying something small and fun to drive around town (Mini CooperS or something of the same variety), leaving the Suburban for hauling extra people and towing our boat and RV. I figure if I buy a small car, I can extend the life of Suburban for a few more years.

tedebear

many people own their homes outright(no mortgage). yes, they are actually out there.

Ah, I see. I remember a few of those wonderful years myself.

My true love then decided that since we had that house paid off we could go out and buy a new one. I told her okay, but only as long as my wife gets to come with us.

kernick

I'm certainly not wealthy, but I have saved 20+% each year of my pay, invested that in some stocks, and now that I'm buying another house, I'm not going out and buying the most house a bank will loan me $ for. I'm buying a decent house but paying cash. I paid cash for my '07 Mazda 2 months ago, and my GF has my '05 X-Type.

We pay utilities and property tax. The reason I can do this, isn't because I made a lot, it's because I didn't spend a lot for years.

I really don't feel sorry for people who spend whatever you give them on "wants" and then are broke.

explorerx4

what we will do for our kids? :surprise:

kernick

1st: When I bought my Civic Hybrid, the feds sent me an extra $2,100.

And how much is the current buyer of Civic hybrids or Toyota hybrids getting? There's a big difference between the government giving some initial rebates to encourage demand, and thinking that the government has the funds to do this for many millions of people. Anyway the question concerned if the fuel tax was no longer collected, what would replace it. Obviously roads need to be repaired and plowed and patrolled similarly, so some tax would need to be collected to replace the gas-tax.

1st: But I don't believe they'll get away with it.

The gas and diesel taxes are there to pay for the road and bridges, whether you bike, use a gas, electric or pedal car. The road is there for trucks to use to deliver all the things you use in your life. Regardless if we go to whale-oil, coal, nuclear batteries, or great solar panels the vehicles using the road are going to pay for the roads - as it should. Whatever it is moving the vehicles should be taxed for the use of the road.

elias

thanks for the info, gagrice. i've never run any sort of biodiesel through my TDIs except for B5 at a random pump one time years ago. I'd really like to try B20 or B100 in my VW TDI now that it is nearly out of warranty.
in greasecar news, I've seen a few greasecars/waste-veg-oil cars/trucks in new england and Ithaca NY... those are nifty. F250 one time on Rt 9(MA)...

gagrice

There are some other attributes to B100 that you need to know. It will gel at close to freezing temperatures. Probably one reason you see a lot of B20 and very little B100. I don't think I have the patience to collect used cooking oil for my car. It does work and at 5 bucks a gallon for diesel it pays. I keep my eyes open for a bargain on a VW TDI to run around in. Everyone in CA seems to know they are like gold. I looked at a 2002 Jetta the other day with 103k miles and he wants $13,500. That is way over BB value. He will probably get it. Those years of Jetta get 50 MPG pretty regular.

avalon02wh

This is funny. People are having trouble with $4 a gallon, let alone $12.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4019#more

At $12

It costs $248 to fill up a H3 and $12,006 dollars to drive it 15,000 miles.

A trucker putting 200 gallons in his rig will spend $2,400

Filling up the 1,000 gallon home heating oil tank would cost $12,000

1stpik

"The gas and diesel taxes are there to pay for the road and bridges."

We know, that's what they keep TELLING us. But then they steal a big chunk of the gas tax money and stick it in the state's general fund. Then they use another chunk of it to build a light commuter train, or a bike path.

So, if they just quit stealing and wasting the gas tax money, they'll have PLENTY left over to build and maintain roads, despite hybrid and future electric cars. Especially since the gas tax is not the ONLY tax on cars. Don't forget the sales tax, registration tax(es), highway tolls, etc.

Where does all that money go?

avalon02wh

A quick scan of the new numbers has the 09 Jetta Diesel at 29 city and 40 highway. The 08 Prius is at 48/45.

annual fuel costs
09 Jetta = $1886 :P
08 Prius = $1211
09 Camry Hybrid = $1592

CO2 in tons
Jetta = 6.4
Prius = 4.0
Camry Hybrid = 5.4

And the winner is.....it isn't the diesel. So when gas hits $4 go buy a Prius.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

ivan_99

I'm not certain where they got that info...I don' think the 09 Jetta diesel has been released yet...or EPA tested

On VW's site http://www.vw.com/vwhype/heritage/en/us/#/Tomorrow they state they expect mid 40's for city and mid 50's for highway (some i've read show 60mpg highway)

so

Prius
48/45
Jetta Diesel
45/55

:P

dieselone

And the winner is.....it isn't the diesel. So when gas hits $4 go buy a Prius.

No thanks. Anyone who actually enjoys driving will quickly find the Prius to be a penalty box. I'll take the upgraded interior and driving dynamics of the Jetta.

My dad went looking at the Prius and Camry Hybrid and was told up to a 4 month wait. I've also been hearing the upcoming Jetta TDI's will be going over sticker. Paying extra cash for an option that is already extra cash will make the return on investment that much lower.

vu2000

There is no 4 months wait for a Prius or Camry hybrid. I bought my Prius over 1 year ago, and there were 12 to choose from on the dealer's lot. Each time I got my oil change, I would look at the dealer's lot and they always have at leat 10 Prius and 5 - 7 Hybrid Camrys sittting there. This is in Delaware. Look on the Prius site, there are plenty of people who rea still buying these vehicles at invoice. When I bought my car, I paid $500 over invoice, but I also received the $1575 federal tax write off.

dieselone

There is no 4 months wait for a Prius or Camry hybrid

Actually I meant 3 mos. My dad was at a Toyota dealer in Northwest Indiana last Saturday and they told him they had a waiting list that would take them 3 mos. to get thru.

Maybe that dealer has their head up their [non-permissible content removed], I don't know, but that is what they are claiming.

kdhspyder

The proposal in front of Congress now is $3000 I believe for PHEV's an other alternates.

This is good for the manufacturers primarily. But the consumers will see it as a valuable gift as well.

kdhspyder

Nice find.. I've been waiting for these numbers to come out. Now we have to see how the clean diesel Accord does.

It doesn't make the Jetta much of a bargain in any comparo especially with diesel being at a premium. Then it has a world of other issues to overcome.

snakeweasel

I'm not certain where they got that info...I don' think the 09 Jetta diesel has been released yet...or EPA tested

It's on the EPA website.

kdhspyder

The link is obvious. This is the EPA testing of the Jetta. All vehicles are submitted to the EPA before launch so that the stickers and such can be printed with the accurate fuel economy data.

VW's website probably doesn't factor in the 10-15% reduction in the numbers that all 2008's and later vehicles took. This data is what will have to appear on the Maroney labels and in all their advertising. By law they can't use any other numbers.

kdhspyder

That's changed now vu2000. since gas went to $3.50 nearly all the new Prius' in Central Atlantic Toyota are 'Gone in 60 Seconds' to borrow a phrase. Most stores now have a 2 week to 4 month waiting list on the Prius, depending on store size. There are plenty of TCH's available.

We had 50 Prius' on the ground and in transit at the beginning of April. All but 2 were gone by May 1. Those two were gone along with the next 30 inbound in the last 18 days. It's now back to ordering with a $500 deposit. Simply supply and demand. It will balance out soon again....probably.

vu2000

Too bad, the next time I drive by Price Toyota I will have to peek in to see their supply. It is good to see that people are now beginning to buy more fuel efficient vehicles, there are too many large trucks and SUV's on the road driven by alot of us who do not need them. I do agree with dieselone that the Prius and Camry hybrid are boring to drive, but I rather not give my extra cash to the oil companies and our friends in the Middle East :mad: . I am wating for the 09 Accord diesel to come out, but with the high diesel price, this would effectively reduce demands for these wonderful cars.

gagrice

I would take the Jetta Sportwagon TDI over the Prius any day. It will be more of a Highlander Hybrid competitor. It is rated at 34 combined. So you can get the same MPG as the Camry Hybrid with 300% more luggage space. A no brainer for most people. Plus the Sportwagon is rated 41 MPG highway where the Camry Hybrid is only rated 34 MPG. I don't think their is a hybrid in this league....

nippononly

What's interesting to note for me is that the new Jetta is only rated a couple of points above the Yaris, which is rated 29/36.

The Yaris costs half of what the Jetta will, and drives better than the Prius by a fair amount. No, the Yaris and Jetta TDI are not apples and apples, but the point is that diesel in its latest iterations does not beat the regular old small cars by much in its fuel efficiency. If you're just looking to save money and buy a commuter car, you would save thousands and thousands of dollars going with the Yaris, while not burning any more fuel (and certainly with the substantial premium for diesel fuel right now, your fuel costs will be lower in the Yaris).

That's before we even talk about what the new TDI's sticker might be ($22K? $23K?) and how much over sticker dealers will want for the limited supply VW always makes available.

I hope better hybrids, and perhaps hybrid diesels, are in our near future....and yes, plug-in hybrids would be nice too, but I do wonder how quickly we will be able to revamp our fuel delivery infrastructure to make charging easily accesible everywhere. Until such time as PHEVs are widespread, we need to perhaps get a few more models out there that employ the time-honored method of reducing size and power to boost fuel efficiency. They could start with some of the smaller models we already get here, and certify lower-powered powertrains these cars already get in other global markets for use here.

avalon02wh

New York is at $4.002 for RUG. Good Job. But where NY is really kicking tail is with diesel prices. As of this AM they are at $4.890 according to AAA. I am going to go out on a limb and say that there must be at least a few stations in NY over $5.

It would be interesting to hear from diesel owners in NY -- are the prices fueling your pain?

I cannot say I share your pain. The extra $15 a month for gasoline has been insignificant for me. The entertainment value on the other hand has more than offset the price increases. Watching the country wake up to high energy and fuel prices has been interesting. And, to see all the doomers come out of the closet, that's worth $25 a month alone.

Next winter I am really looking forward to the auto shows, you know, where the big three trot out their latest 500 hp wonder machine.

And for those of you that missed the latest internet rumor, Iraq is claiming they have 350 billion barrels of oil -- that is more than KSA at 260 billion. Who knows, maybe in 10 years their oil production will be at 5 or 6 million barrels a day.

kdhspyder

It looks too small to be a direct competitor to the HH. I'd guess it's natural competitors are the FEH/MMH/MTH, the RAV gasser, the Mazda5 and the new Venza gasser

avalon02wh

"A no brainer for most people."

I like the way you mix and match your points. It is a no brainer, with high diesel prices and VWs worst in the market reliability just about any Toyota or Honda is better. For people interested in saving fuel and the environment the Prius is better than the Jetta.

In the long run RUG is still my bet for less pain at the pump. Diesel has 138,700 BTUs per gallon while RUG has about 125,000. That means that diesel fuel only has 11% more energy per gallon. As time goes on gasoline engines will close the gap in efficiency (turbos!). If diesel prices remain at 15 to 25% higher than RUG we won't be seeing too many diesel cars.

1stpik

The debate over diesel vs. hybrid always seems to get emotional, and it doesn't have to. The previous post is correct:

"If diesel prices remain at 15 to 25% higher than RUG we won't be seeing too many diesel cars."

This is one of the reasons we don't ALREADY have diesel cars in great numbers. The fuel cost negates the financial benefit of higher mpg. Another is that the engines simply don't appeal to great numbers of consumers. They're noisier than gasoline engines and the fumes smell bad.

On the good side, the performance of a diesel is undeniable -- loads of torque (which is what delivers quick acceleration) and excellent fuel economy.

In the end, it comes down to a matter of personal choice. Some consumers want the benefits of a hybrid (quiet engine, less-expensive fuel, "green" reputation) and they're willing to accept a lackluster driving experience. Others prefer the performance of a strong engine, the mpg of a hybrid, and they're willing to pay more for and accept the aesthetic drawbacks of diesel.

It's a classic apples-to-oranges comparison. One is not better than the other, they're simply different.
.

dieselone

Gagrice, your deadon about the Jetta TDI Sportwagon. Looks to be a great car. Sharp looks, should drive nice, room and good fuel economy. Yes the additional cost of diesel is going to negate much of the extra fuel efficiency. But the biggest issue will be finding one, the 2nd will be how more money over sticker will you have to pay.

kernick

Low weight and small engines. The small cars today are bloated with comfort and safety features, and overpowered?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/20/geo.metro/index.html

Low cost to make, buy, and run. Simple to diagnose and fix.

bpizzuti

Well, there's a lot of factors as far as diesel goes. I wonder if it's any easier to make it from heavy crude (I know the light stuff is easy to get gasoline out of). Of course, since "home heating oil" is also pretty much diesel fuel, which puts an additional demand on diesel supplies.

mattandi

and following that in the article

Others are less certain.

"The fundamental picture to us doesn't justify the price," said Lehman's Crandell. "It's kind of suggestive of a bubble."

Seems the finger pointing will continue for a while.

lemko

...my lifestyle has been greatly diminished as a result of fuel prices. I've always tried to conserve on gasoline or heating my home. The only problem is trying to get my girlfriend to follow my standards when it comes to conservation. She grew up with a rather privileged background compared to my own. With her, it's always "We need! We need!" when in reality it is "I want!"

gagrice

That's before we even talk about what the new TDI's sticker might be ($22K? $23K?) and how much over sticker dealers will want for the limited supply VW always makes available.

I am guessing the Sportwagon TDI will be pushing $30k MSRP. The price of diesel will cut into sales which will make dealing on one easier. According to the EPA the Diesel with auto gets 34 MPG combined. The cheap gas version gets 24 MPG. That is a 30% increase in economy. They also sell a turbo gas engine for those that like to use premium unleaded. It get 1 MPG better than the other gas engine. Currently RUG is sitting at $4 most places. Diesel is $4.65. Most of my driving is at 70 MPH on Interstate 8. it will cost me $13.79 to drive 100 miles in the gas Sportwagon and $11.34 to drive the same 100 miles with the diesel version. With the added comfort of not hearing that gas engine scream pulling the long uphill grades on Interstate 8. As far as reliability. I bought a 7 year bumper to bumper warranty on my Toyota Sequoia and would do the same on a VW. There is too much crap to break on modern cars to drive one without a warranty.

ivan_99

Well if those are the real numbers they are way off of VW's estimates (claims).

I don't see how VW can claim (before EPA estimates) mid 40's and mid 50's and then it comes in at 30 and 41. What disclaimer are they going to put on the bottom of their page...btw subtract 1/3 mileage :confuse:

dieselone

The price of diesel will cut into sales which will make dealing on one easier.

I hope your right, but I think their will be more than enough initial demand that getting a deal on one will be a ways off.

gagrice

VW by law will post whatever the EPA says it is. From what I have read in the UK the mileage is MUCH higher than the EPA estimates. If you can get any info from the EPA on cars they have actually tested, you are doing better than I am. They claim they test less than 15% of new models. They would not say which ones they have tested. Diesels invariably get better than EPA estimates. I know my Passat TDI did much better. The New EPA estimate says 27 MPG combined. I got 31+ MPG for the 8000 miles I owned the car. The average consumer mileage for that vehicle is 32.3 MPG. That is 17% better than EPA says. It seems mighty strange to me that diesel prices jumped so far ahead of UG just before several manufacturers start offering diesel cars to the US.

larsb

Boy, this post really got my blood pressure up !!!

First: It does NOT MATTER ONE WHIT whether the EPA or the automaker tests the car and provides the EPA mpg results. No car company has EVER fudged on this number, because all it takes is one EPA comparison test to find that they had lied. And do you know how many millions, maybe BILLIONS, of dollars a car company would lose if they were said to have been fudging their results? No car company would EVER EVER put their board and their shareholders at risk like that. You can trust ANY EPA test to have been done per EPA guidelines and the cars to have ACTUALLY performed as such during the test. Never, EVER doubt it for one second.

Second: No car, gasoline or diesel, ever "invariably" gets more than the EPA test. There are some drivers in every car who get less than the EPA ratings and some drivers who get more than the EPA ESTIMATE. That's because real-world driving is not 100% the same as a laboratory test.

Third: Diesel prices "jumped" ahead of gasoline prices for valid, market-based reasons. No one person or group of people can control international fuel prices. If they could, then gas and diesel would be $15 a gallon. Refining costs for diesel is twice the refining cost for unleaded fuel (10% of the cost of a gallon of regular unleaded versus 21% of the cost of a diesel gallon). With refineries at capacity, it costs more to refine the diesel fuel, and demand had gone way up worldwide.

Further explanation:

Why are diesel fuel prices higher than gasoline prices?

Until several years ago, the average price of diesel fuel was usually lower than the average price of gasoline. In some winters when the demand for distillate heating oil was high, the price of diesel fuel rose above the gasoline price. Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe, and the U.S., putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity. In the U.S., the transition to low-sulfur diesel fuel has affected diesel fuel production and distribution costs. Also, the Federal excise tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents higher per gallon (24.4 cents per gallon) than the tax on gasoline.