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PS
I understand your position of keeping the manufacturer protected by the EPA.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I say leave it to the EPA We don't have enough to yell at our gov't about yet :P
I think if you look at the SMALLER numbers on gagrice's sticker it tell's a more truthful story. Maybe to get certified to sell in the U.S. test vehicles should be able to hit a minimum (say 15 MPG city for a half ton pickup,for argument's sake) Even if the big number on the sticker says 18, as long as you get 15 evereything is cool. If not bring it to the dealer so they can verify everythings in good working order. If it is, and you still have a problem, appeal to the EPA, and let them test YOUR vehicle. If they get at least 15, it can be assumed you are the culprit (and your driving habits), if not, the manufacturer buys it back (say, under 6 months) or repairs it (over 6 mo).
Sound fair?????
RE: Prius -- one big problem with that car was that the EPA should have warned people that if you did a lot of freeway driving this was going to skew your average city/fwy mileage bigtime.
The Prius is counter-intuitive in that way. It tends to get MUCH BETTER mileage in the city than on the highway.
Anytime you see a Prius whiz by you at 75 mph, you can be sure the owner is completely unsure on the concept.
No I believe the current system works fine. It is a comparison and many people can achieve EPA figures or come very close to it (in reality no two cars of the same make and options will get the exact same mileage). You seem to want to stir up the water and make it muckier.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats because is stop and go traffic there is a significant amount of distance that the Prius goes where the gas engine is turned off. On the highway (or any constant speed) that never happens.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can spot a driver who's losing 1-2 mpg very easily. He/she does not anticipate slow downs and speed ups in traffic flow for one thing...also these BRAKE/GAS/BRAKE/GAS type of drivers....and of course the ones who never check their tire pressure...that'll cost you up to 5% loss easily.
that 32k in a cd at 5% nets about $133 a month. That will buy 38 gallons a month today. It only takes 52 gallons a month to drive my $2500 24mpg 4.3L pickup truck 15000 miles a year. For the Prius to save me 38 gallons, it would have to do the 15000 miles a year on 14 gallons a month. To do that, it would need to get 89 mpg to be a break even replacement for my pickup. The Prius is a negative return on the investment and actually would be like paying $6.50 a gallon now for gas. The pickup got almost 20% over the EPA hwy number on the trip up to IND from FL. Thats with 90k miles on it and low rear tire pressure due to nail in it. Sounds like the Prius would not even get 45mpg for me. I run 44 miles each way at 67-70 mph and just 3 miles after I get off the interstate in my daily commute.
But I don't see anyone paying much over $25k over in the recent posts of the Toyota Prius: Prices Paid & Buying Experience discussion.
In answer to your two previous posts there cannot be a standarized test that is invariabley accurate. I can make a Cobalt or a Prius or a Fusion get values greater than the old EPA values or take the same vehicle and get values that are 50% of the these values.
Which should be the standard? At best given the variety of the driving conditions one might encounter all that can be used is an approximation given one set of variables which are the same for all vehicles. Then you have to make your own judgement.
Using Gary's example of the Prius would you be willing to pay a $10000 premium ( $100 / 0.1 mi over the old EPA estimate of 55 ) if I showed you how to get 65 mpg from it. He could also show how you should get a $20000 from the same vehicle.
Yes you are always ahead if you don't buy any new vehicle and go with a lower priced older vehicle. All new vehicles are too expensive to use that as an excuse to 'save' money. One 'saves' money by purchasing a good 5-7 y.o. Used vehicle and putting the difference to work in another real investment. There never has been any question about this.
Better yet don't buy anything and save the entire outlay and invest it all. That's where you really save.
The rest is all for those who want to buy a new vehicle.
If you're going to push a ten year old used car at the same speed and mileage as a new car, as a primary vehicle, and you demand total reliability, it is not unreasonable to assume you'll have $800-$1,200 a year in repairs on the used car. Shoot on an old or Japanese German car that's an alternator and a timing belt.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
Oh man, that must be hard on your car over time! Cold start, run for 5 blocks, turn off, cold start, run for 5 blocks, turn off. It never gets a chance to warm up on your commute.
You are someone who could probably bike your commute about as quickly as drive it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
On a personal note, and just to bely the AAA report quoted in the news and several times here in the last few days, I had planned a camping trip this weekend that would have involved aproximately 250 miles of driving each way, 500 altogether. The gas cost would not have been super-high, maybe $50, but at $3.50/gallon that along with other expenses I would have incurred made me think twice. And when I factored in that I have a couple of highway trips coming up this month that I can't cancel, I decided to just stay home. So here I am with all you folks at Edmunds! :-)
I don't know if AAA's estimates of traveling totals this weekend will bear out, but personally I am happy with my decision to stay home. Now I can have a barbecue tomorrow evening as well. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nothing better than a home grilled cheeseburger. I am ready for the Monday BBQ. I'll tip a glass of wine to your good health.
I have a roommate who doesn't have a car. I had been letting him drive my pickup, when he only worked about 3-4 miles away, but about a year ago he got a new job about 20 miles away. I didn't like the idea of him driving something that old for that far, so I just let him use the Intrepid. Actually, I don't mind, either. I find the pickup to actually be more comfortable than the Intrepid, and easier to get into and out of.
I told him though, that once that Intrepid goes, that's it. He's going to have to break down and get a car, as he's not borrowing any of my old dinosaurs for that commute. As for fuel economy when I was driving the Intrepid, I think I got as low as 17-18 mpg, if it was a stretch when all I was doing was going back and forth to work, with no chance to really get out and run the car. Sometimes in the morning I've made it to work in as little as 5-6 minutes (10 minutes is a LONG commute), so the car really doesn't get much of a chance to warm up. And I've never been one to let it sit and warm up for a long time. Usually I'll just hop in and go, and just try to drive gently until the temp gauge starts to register.
I guess letting the car warm up would actually use more fuel, since it's sitting there idling all that time.
I did drive the truck up to Baltimore today to see some friends, about 30 miles each way. Never got it above 65, and tried to maintain 60 on the Balt-Wash parkway. You should've seen some of the nasty looks people were giving me! At one point an F-350 towing a trailer that had a newish Benz S-class, an F-250, and some full-sized SUV I forget now, blew past me at about 70!
My major reason for liking PU trucks and large SUVs. Ease of getting in and out. If I am going to contort my body getting in and out of some low slung car it will be a Porsche or nice sports car. Even then I would probably drive my truck except on those days I feel like a drive in the country on some winding back road. Not on a weekend of course. The gas consumption is way down the list of priorities from comfort.
Sound fair?????
I think that is a good direction, but still not enough. I do not have the resources to chase down the EPA or arguing with the dealer/manufacturer. This is where I am coming from -
I consider both myself and my wife to be good, defensive drivers. Even now, we both get 27/33 mpg on my 1998 Camry, close to the then published numbers. In 2001, she bought a Corolla, and right off the lot, we were getting 22/26 mpg, way below the published number, and even lower than the Camry. It can't be her driving habits. We took the car to the dealer a few times, they just blamed our driving habits and cited some statistical mumbo-jumbo - it's within the range and you need to use 93 octane to test mpg, etc. We got fed up with this, she started saving up for her next car - and traded in the Corolla as soon as she paid it off. For this new car, she is getting exactly the posted mpg.
The point is that when we bought the car, there were 12 or 15 cars of the same model sitting side by side on the lot. If somebody tested the mpg of every car and posted it on the sticker, she'd have never bought that particular car. You can test it only after you drive it off the lot, and by then it is too late.
The problem is that a low mpg for a vehicle is not a problem for the dealer. The mfr will not take responsibility (they never guarantee any mpg value), and put the burden on the consumer. So the consumer has to roll the dice on what mpg s/he gets, and this gets worse as the gas prices go through $3.50.
I think car buyers should have the option of returning a car after 100miles/3days/whatever time is reasonable for the consumer to test it. May be some day we can go to a WalMart to buy cars with a better return policy.
Regards, - MS.
Good thing you weren't on I-95 driving at 60, you may have gotten more than just nasty looks. That is a speedway where the cops never have a shortage of cars to pull over for speeding.
Of course they have some horrific accidents with the speed and tailgating!!!
Looked for an old used tried and true 3cyl 1.0 Lt
GEO METRO auto and AC ( Florida) got one for one thousand right out of the used card lot it was doing 33mpg Yes not good for a metro 45 is more like it for the little 1.0
So after a weekend tinkering (that is doing what no one does normally )
now its up to 38 mpg (My daughters corolla new geta 33mpg but costs 15K more) so by the time Mohammed jacks it up to five or six per GL the Geo should be close to 45 as it was originally assembled Simple problem Simple solution
Have fun al you SUV lovers summers here
Last summe going on vacation over a 4 hour drive with two adults and 2 weeks of vacation stuff going from sealevel to 1500 ft into a good head wind I averaged about 44 mpg @ 70 mph.
One of the key problems in 'unwinding a deal' is what to do regarding the taxes due to the state.
A second consideration is what value to put on these returns? Are they new or are they now USED demos? Would you pay new-car money for a vehicle that's been returned 'just because' by 25 different buyers and now it has 2500 miles on it?
[A] Drive your own car to avoid the hassles of renting?
[B] Rent a small car with high mpg to save on gas?
[C] Rent a large car or minivan for the extra comfort?
[D] Fly to destination and rent a car locally?
We have tried both A and C. Partly because of the gas prices, we simply cancelled our planned trip to visit family 300 miles away, and here I am sitting at home on a Memorial Day weekend reading the forums at Edmunds. Some other folks, I am reading, are doing the same, too!
Anyway, what's your opinion? I might try B for my next road trip. Is depreciation a factor in the choice? Regards, - MS.
(On the right) "For comparison shopping all vehicles classified as Standard pickup have been issued mileage ratings rating from 09 to 24mpg city and 12 to 29mpg highway" - Is that meaningful?
(To the left) - "Actual mileage will vary with options, driving conditions.... Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 15 and 21 mpg in the city and between 17 and 25 mpg on the highway" - fine, so where does this vehicle stand in the distribution?
It sounds to me as a legal disclaimer, with little info on the particular vehicle I am trying to buy. What I'd like to see is something like the following points:
1. Under EPA test conditions, this vehicle achieves 17 mpg in the city and 24 mpg on the highway
2. Acceleration time from 0 to 60 mph: 8.21 seconds
3. Braking distance from 60mph to stop: 274 feet
4. Noise attenuation with windows and sunroof closed: 44dB
As time goes on, they could add the emission test results too. Now I can compare 2 vehicles, and buy the one I like. I don't need to do those tests myself and try to return the vehicle (I agree, test driving for 100 miles over 3 days is impractical). Peace, - MS.
I’m with Gary on three day weekend thing, stay home, BBQ, perhaps a beer with lunch and maybe a nice scotch after diner. Then come Tuesday I get to start on all the “honey do’s” that have piled up over the past 15 days.
Potato based ethanol is viable but wouldn't you really rather have it made into vodka?
My thoughts exactly and it also applies to corn. Vodka and corn whiskey will lower fuel prices based on the following analogy.
If you drink any of these you should not drive. If you drink enough you won’t care if you ever get there. :P
Nobody buys gas, price drops back to $0.39.9 per gallon
Down side: Huge spike in the price of Asprin.
Simple since technically there was no sale just refund the money to the customer and not send the sales tax money to the state. It would be considered a return and allowance on your sales and use tax return.
A second consideration is what value to put on these returns?
Thats the problem once the car is titled and driven off the lot it loses value. Best way to deal with this is charge the customer for that loss in value, maybe charge a restocking fee.
On the whole its a pretty unworkable ideal as it places undue burdens on the dealership and is bound to be abused.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Since I retired, I drive many fewer miles. I have a little less than 40K miles on it.
I am planning on moving to TN, about 500 miles from where I now live in MD.
I plan on towing a U-haul with the 4Runner, so I plan on keeping it that long. Once in TN, I plan on getting a hybrid for local travel.
I might keep the 4 Runner for beach driving on vacation as I've always done with it.
It's a little hard to justify the other 50 weeks of insurance and other costs of keeping it, just for vacation.
Li Sailor,
I had the 6 lowest vertabrae split away from where they were crushing my spinal column and fuzed with cadaver bones. 5 crushed disks were removed at the same time, I now have 2 12 inch titanium rods held in with 6 screws, covering my lower back. It cured the pain, but my movement is somewhat restricted- much more than might seem seem obvious.
So far, about 1/2 the metal detectors at airports detect the metal in my back.
I had stents put in my 2 carotid arteries, which were 98% occluded and 80% occluded. They went in my femoral artery, past my heart and into the carotids. 1 Hour for each procedure. I had to stay in the hospital for observation for 24 hours so I didn't move too much and tear open the hole my femoral artery. Since it didn't hurt at all, this sounds like something I might do if I went home right after.
I dodged a bullet, as I was very close to having a stroke.
The stents were Nickel-Titanium.
I feel like, I Robot, with all the metal replacement parts I'm accumulating in my body.
Take care.
I wanted to buy a GL320 CDI and have not found the deal I want. So we will rent for this trip. I would not take our 18 year old Lexus that far either. It is our around town car for the rest of its life. I will find out if the Acadia is up to the EPA rating of 24 MPG highway. The Trailblazer we rented in Hawaii averaged exactly 18 MPG which is the old EPA combined rating. Too bad my GMC "Hybrid" is so far off the mark.
Of course it is meaninful it lets you know that in its class this vehicle is above average for gas mileage. What is so hard to figure out about that?
To the left) - "Actual mileage will vary with options, driving conditions.... Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 15 and 21 mpg in the city and between 17 and 25 mpg on the highway" - fine, so where does this vehicle stand in the distribution?
It stands at 18 mpg city and 21 mpg highway. Just like the sticker says. When it says, "the majority of vehicles with these estimates," it means all vehicles across all class and drive types. That includes cars, trucks, vans and SUVs.
I don't find a range of 15 to 25 MPG of much use. I have averaged a bit over 15 MPG for the 9500 miles I have on the truck. I am far from a hot rodder. I hate accelerating to merge into freeway traffic as I know it kills my gas mileage.
Kinda makes no sense, unless....hmmm...it has fabulous aero? Extremely tall gearing?
Sounds like, though, from the description, that the Atkinson cycle would not be good for straight high speed highway driving vis a vis a normal Otto engine.
The low aero and tall gearing could account for improved mpg.
Still I'm skeptical that the average Prius would get 45 mpg on strict highway use because most Prius average only 41-45 mpg, which means that the city mileage must be a lot higher---(that's what the technology is supposed to do) and therefore to have a 41-44 mpg average we'd have to assume that highway mileage would be less than 45 mpg.
AVERAGING 75 mph is not the same as hitting 75 mph now and then...for me to average 75 mph in my Scion I'm cranking out 80-82 mph for long periods.
It does 'suffer' somewhat at 70-80 and higher speeds because it is a smallish engine for the weight of the vehicle but it 'suffers' from 51 mpg down to the low 40's.
Surprising - at first - to me was that the TCH doesn't seem to 'suffer' as much at high speeds, say 75-80 mph. To me it seems that the engine is better mated with the weight and size of the car. At a nearly constant 75 mph over a 650 mi trip from sealevel through the Appalachins I was able to get 39 mpg when the Highway rating was 38 mph. I was shocked frankly.
high 30s is a number that still takes the bite out of $3.50/gal gas. It's still unusual for me to bust $30 on a tankful.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
You are missing the point. No one expects a high mileage from a pu truck. I agree with gagrice - a mileage range of 15 to 25 means little, since I am buying 1 car and not 100's of them. Let me explain -
Say I am at your store trying to buy a new LR3. You make me stand in front of 10 beautiful vehicles, to "pick one". I have to have a basis for making a selection. Think about what you offer me for this basis (other things being equal)-
Body color
Shape of the bumper, fender and grille
Whether turn signals are integrated on side mirrors
Lets say these are inconsequential to me, and all other things being equal, I want to pick the vehicle with the highest mpg value. Guess what? If you care to test and publish the mpg for every vehicle on the sticker, the ones with higher mpg would move off the lot much faster (thats my opinion).
If your published range is from 15 to 25 mpg, for driving 12000mi/year at gas $4/gal, the range of annual gas cost is from $1920 to $3200. I would like to pay less for the vehicle more expensive to operate.
From another viewpoint, lets say the average mpg value for your cars is 20, with a disclaimer - YMMV (literally). Thats a +/-25% tolerance. Do you know of any other engineering product in the world with that kind of tolerance? How would you feel if Dell sells you a computer stating that the "CPU speed can be anywhere between 1.5GHz and 2.5Ghz, depending on your applications and how many hours you spend a day on Edmunds"?
These are just stupid games automakers play with statistics and get away with it because most people have to have a car for a living. OK, I'll step off the pedestal now. Regards, - MS.