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Are gas prices fueling your pain?

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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    Thanks for checking that out, tpe, I was going to when I got a chance. To contend that doubling the raw material cost for many food items has no impact on price is absurd. The report's conclusion smelled 'cooked'.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    On a different note, our hopes of Canada bailing us out with all their tar sands may have hit a bump: Canadian court questions project
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Thanks much for the support. I find it lacking around here. Sometimes I'm the only bee in the bonnet.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Again what do you consider minimal?

    A new study released last week estimates that increased corn prices, “driven by rapidly expanding” U.S. ethanol production, has increased U.S. retail food prices by $14 billion annually. The study also projected the impact if season-average corn prices increased to $4.42/bu. over a 10-year period ending in 2016, and assuming crude oil prices ranged from $65-70/barrel. Given those assumptions, the impact on the following commodities is projected against the $2/bu. corn prices that existed in mid-2006:

    * “Pork: Production costs would increase by 36.8% and production would decline by 9.2%, retail prices would increase 8.4% and exports would decline by 21%, reversing 15 consecutive years of pork export growth.
    * “Poultry: Broiler exports would decline by 15%, while turkey exports would fall by 6%. Wholesale broiler prices would increase by 15%, retail prices would increase by 5% and domestic consumption would decline by 4%.
    * “Beef: Retail beef prices would increase 4% and production would decline by 1.6%. Significantly, since the study projects that the price of distillers dried grains with solubles will closely track increasing corn prices, the impacts of such price increases are nearly as significant for beef and dairy as they are for hogs and poultry.
    * “Corn: U.S. planted acreage would increase by 44%, from 78 million acres in 2006 to 112.5 million acres. Meanwhile, U.S. corn exports are projected to decline from 2.4 billion bushels, currently, to as low as 911 million bushels – a 63% decline.”


    This is a World wide issue. First we could be getting cheap ethanol from Brazil if not for the 53 cent tariff. The 34.5 million acres now planted in corn, were being used for other crops. Are you saying we did not need the food that was grown on those fields before? Are you saying that it will not raise the prices when the supply is diminished? I think it can be proven that corn production has had a big impact on other crops and is a BIG factor in the doubling on the price of wheat and soybeans.

    And lastly, I do not think we can show where the production of ethanol has decreased the importing of oil by any amount. It has been a factor in the higher cost of gasoline. How much do you think it costs to truck a gallon of ethanol to CA? That price is tacked onto the already high price of gasoline. Just to satisfy that ignorant Energy bill.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I appreciate your comments. T

    he answer to this question will no doubt be answered shortly. Gold is the new standard and the dollar is turning into the yen.

    There is no doubt in my mind we will hit mid-recession by summer. The next question is when the light at the end of the tunnel is visible. It's only starting to darken now.

    Let's get ready to spend more on energy than it costs for some mortgages and car payments every month!! Wait, I already do spend more than my car payment. Forget that one, for me anyway!

    Regards,
    OW
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, I know your ....um, how can I say this nicely,,,,,,,,.......um, "attitudes" about things rarely change.

    If you want to continue to believe that Ethanol is the cause of all our food price woes, feel free as a free American to do so.

    But please don't try to convince other people of it, because although you might solidly believe it, it's just not true.

    It is "A" factor, not the biggest or the only factor. A FACTOR. A small portion of the overall equation.

    High fuel costs are a bigger reason than ethanol production.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    Sorry Lars, condescending or not, your dismissal of Gary doesn't work. Recent EU studies indicate biofuels, corn from ethanol included, have 0, zero, nada benenfits overall. So any impact on food pricing is a clear and unnecessary negative.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If ethanol was a good thing it could succeed on its own merit. It would not need to be subsidized and have high tariffs to protect those producing it. It would be the same as the US giving the Big 3 a 25% subsidy on every automobile built in the USA and charging a 25% tariff on every automobile imported. Actually a little more than 25%. A 54 cent subsidy on a gallon of ethanol that is selling for $1.75 is what percentage? And I believe you are in the minority thinking that ethanol is not impacting our food more than a little bit. My guess is about 20 to 30 percent. Transportation probably accounts for about the same. With the devalued dollar kicking in a fair amount also.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Actually, the devalued dollar kicks in an inherent subsidy to the US auto companies and similar"tariff" due to the exchange rate.

    As to the Ethanol affecting price, I assume it does but what percent I am not sold on.

    My guess is transportation is by far the biggest catalyst.

    Regards,
    OW
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, I'm not taking a position on Ethanol at all. The market will work all that out.

    All I am saying is that blaming Ethanol as being the sole or primary reason for higher food prices is incorrect.

    'Sall I'm sprayin................
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Actually, the devalued dollar kicks in an inherent subsidy to the US auto companies and similar"tariff" due to the exchange rate.

    You're use of "subsidy" and "tariff" are incorrect. These are government created thru legislation that changes a cost to a specific industry. The devaluation of the $ is not legislated directly though it is an indirect result of our policies; and is not targeted to a specific industry.
    The devaluation of the $ does make ALL U.S. products and services attractively priced. The company I work for benefits greatly as we sell overseas and collect Euros, and also our product can be priced lower than our foreign-made competition. However it is not so good when it comes to buying oil with $'s.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I was using the ER as a metaphor for "subsidy" in that it discounts the value of the product relative to cost in the US at this time. It is implied were as a subsidy is a policy but both result in a similar effect. Exports are now rising in the US as a result.

    There are many factors to the rise in cost of food. In the current moment, since most of our fuel is IMPORTED, the price will keep rising as supply shortens vs. demand as it is now. Particularly as the dollar remains low or drops further.

    The bottom line is the energy costs are the driver for many price increases. Similarly gold is the standard for the currency markets, to which the US dollar looses value as the standard and it's value relationships are currently sliding.

    BTW, isn't it about time to switch to summer gasoline formulas?

    Here we go!

    Regards,
    OW
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sadly, my state (MD) now uses winter blend year-round. I believe it's E10, i.e. 10% ethanol.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    That means your mileage will suffer by about 3%, essentially adding another 10 cents per gallon to the price of gas. 3% would be no big deal if we were actually deriving some benefit. I don't see it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Sadly, my state (MD) now uses winter blend year-round. I believe it's E10, i.e. 10% ethanol.

    I had forgotten about that. Now that I think about it though, I remember hearing some people at a classic car show complaining about how the E10 is supposed to be rough on fuel line components of older cars. I haven't had any problems though...at least not yet! :surprise:

    When did Maryland switch over to that stuff year-round? I remember back in the day, we used to go on that oxygenated stuff around Thanksgiving, and then around March would go back to the regular fuel, but I guess that's something different?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think this is the 3rd year or so. Not real sure.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    That means your mileage will suffer by about 3%, essentially adding another 10 cents per gallon to the price of gas.

    I'm sure cold-air, snow, and warm-up period has a lot to do with it, buy my mpg is down 20-25% from Sep-Oct. I'm getting about 16mpg on a 6-cyl car with this Ethanol blend, and am not very happy. I usually get above sticker estimates! :mad:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    As of my last fill-up, my 2000 Intrepid only averaged about 16.7 mpg for its last tank. 250 miles, 15 gallons to fill up. However, I had let my roommate borrow it, and about all that car saw was 3-4 weeks of nothing but short trip, local driving. Probably never went more than 4-5 miles at a time.

    I took it to the mechanic immediately after filling it up, to get a tuneup and some maintenance done on it. I'll be curious to see what kind of mileage it gets on this next tank. It'll be hard to see the results of just the tuneup though, because the weather's been a bit warmer. Plus, last Saturday, that car went on a 120 mile trip that was mostly highway. The gas gauge is at about a half-tank now, with about 200 miles on it.

    It's EPA-rated at 20/29, although I think they dumbed it down to 18/27 with the new ratings. But in the past, I'd usually get about 20 mpg around town, upper 20's on the highway, and even broke 30 a few times.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...does about 19/29 City/Highway. It does really well on long trips. I think I've also seen a slight decrease in MPG over the winter. I hope PA doesn't follow MD in using this watered-down stuff all year.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I hope PA doesn't follow MD in using this watered-down stuff all year.

    Unfortunately I think that's the direction we're heading. With more and more ethanol being produced it's got to go somewhere. I wonder if the EPA will have to re-calculate their mileage estimates, again. On the positive just side look how effective this has been at reducing our dependence on foreign oil.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I don't think saying that ethanol production is about 20-30% of the increase is saying it is the primary or sole reason for the increase, it is saying it is a major one as is the increase in fuel (see Gay's message, these are the figures he is using). Wether these percentages are true or not is another matter of course, and I personally haven't taken the time to look too closely, the fall of the US $ is also another reason I am sure.
    Scott
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,684
    Expect the Ethanol fiasco to continue. Several plants are coming online that were started a year or so ago. Is there some kind of subsidy for building an ethanol plant?

    There seems to have beena big interest in building little plants in farmland areas around Ohio. I'll wager they'll be closed in 5 years But meanwhile expect the food prices to increase as they suck up the corn production from around the flyover country Midwest.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tkfitztkfitz Member Posts: 95
    In NH the ethanol is being used to replace the MTBE that was in the gas before.An octane enhancer I believe. The stuff was showing up in wells etc... The 10% ethanol blend is supposed to lower the gas mileage by 2 to 5%,but my old car did fine with it. No difference in mileage.
    I hear the real problem with the stuff is storing it. Absorbs water. Real pain in boats,snowmobiles etc. Two strokes do not like bad gas.
    I think we are stuck with the ethanol for a while.....
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    Yep, right about the MTBE replacement, and the problem with water. However, it's added to (slightly) reduce emissions, not increase octane. The improvements debateable, the disadvantages, unfortunately, are clear :mad:
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    In my attempt to reduce fuel expenses in my family budget, I am moving 31 miles closer to work, 5 miles closer to the high school, from 7-20 miles closer to ALL shopping, and 30 miles closer to my son's college. My fuel bill last spring hit $700 a month and I hope to keep it under $400 a month this year. My average vehicle is over 4 liters in engine displacement and none are 4cyl or manuals. Oil companies got more $ from me than Uncle Sam in 2006 and 2007. With this move, I won't need a new car which will save another at least $500 a month for the next 5 years. A new car would increase my mileage from the current 23-24 up to 29-30 mpg, but even at 22k mi/year that would only save 191 gallons a YEAR. My move will save me 90-100 gallons a MONTH.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I thought you already made that move, Dave? Or are you moving in even closer?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    Sounds like a great move, not to mention the exta time you'll get. :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I just passed a Lukoil station on my way to work and spotted diesel at an utterly absurd $4.06 a gallon!
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    A few years from now, you'll pass the same station, and marvel that diesel has gone DOWN to $4.06 a gallon.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Sort of negates buying a diesel...more expensive equipment AND fuel = NO GAIN!

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm looking to replace my little 99' Ranger with a 1995 or older Ford F250 PowerStroke diesel. You can get them for about $5,000 with under 100k miles. My Ranger V6 is a gas hog and lacks power for passing. Probably because it is a FFV. They are known gas hogs :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well, t least you beat the price thing. Does the fuel trade-off make sense to you?

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you are talking about buying a new truck with diesel vs gas. It is hard to justify the diesel. It is about a $7k hit on the price. Unless you are towing a large trailer I do not see the payback. Most times the diesel truck is only slightly better than gas on MPG. I don't need a new truck and the market is good right now to buy the big vehicles. I use my truck only a couple times a week. When I need it I have it. I bought the Ranger right and should make a few bucks selling it.

    PS
    It is also good to have a diesel as well as a gas rig. When they start rationing gas or a catastrophe hits you should still be able to get diesel. Those that had diesel vehicles during Katrina were able to buy fuel without the long lines and stations that ran out of gas.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    it is nice to have the flexibility of two vehicles, one gas and one diesel.
    as for rationing, seems more likely to me that diesel would have to be rationed in USA rather than gasoline, since in USA, diesel demand is inelastic while gasoline demand is elastic.
    now that diesel is over $4/gallon in the northeast, with gasoline under $3, I think we may see diesel drivers tending more towards biodiesel or offroad/untaxed diesel. when warm weather is here, many will find ways to refuel with home heating oil.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    now that diesel is over $4/gallon in the northeast, with gasoline under $3, I think we may see diesel drivers tending more towards biodiesel or offroad/untaxed diesel. when warm weather is here, many will find ways to refuel with home heating oil.

    I dunno about the price disparity in the REAL Northeast, as I'm about 60 miles south of the Mason Dixon line, but around these parts, Diesel fuel is still cheaper than home heating oil. Last time they filled up my oil tank, once they tacked on fees and other junk, it came out to about $3.71 per gallon. I think Diesel fuel at the gas station is more like $3.50-$3.60 per gallon. Heck, maybe I need to start getting my heating oil from the gas station!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    is the question!

    AP
    Gas Prices Up 9 Cents From 2 Weeks Ago
    Monday March 10, 7:04 am ET
    Survey: National Gas Prices Rise 9 Cents Over Last 2 Weeks; Up 64 Cents From Last Year

    CAMARILLO, Calif. (AP) -- A survey says the national average price for gasoline rose 9 cents over the last two weeks.

    The average price of self-serve regular gasoline on Friday was $3.19 a gallon, mid-grade was $3.31 and premium was $3.42, according to the Lundberg Survey of 7,000 stations nationwide released Sunday.

    Of the cities surveyed, the cheapest price was in Cheyenne, Wyo., where a gallon of regular cost $2.95, on average. The highest was in San Francisco at $3.58.

    Compared to a year ago, national gas prices are up 64 cents.

    Lundberg Survey: http://www.lundbergsurvey.com
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    if you think that buying an efficient car or driving less will insulate you from high gas prices, think again:

    Surging costs of groceries hit home

    American families, already pinched by soaring energy costs, are taking another big hit to household budgets as food prices increase at the fastest rate since 1990.

    Prices for bread, milk, eggs, and flour are rising sharply, surging in the past year at double-digit rates, according to the Labor Department. Milk prices, for example, increased 26 percent over the year. Egg prices jumped 40 percent.

    Several factors contribute to higher food prices, analysts say, but none more than record prices for oil, which last week closed above $105 a barrel. Oil is not only driving up production and transportation costs, but also adding to demand for corn and soybeans, used to make alternative fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel.

    As a result, corn prices have more than doubled in commodity markets over two years, and soybeans nearly tripled, according to DTN, a commodities analysis firm in Omaha. Meanwhile, with poor harvests in major wheat-producing regions, wheat prices have more than tripled.

    These crops have a profound impact on food prices because they form foundations for many products, including oils, sweeteners, and flour. Corn, for example, is a key ingredient in livestock feed. When the price of corn rises, so does the price of feed, and ultimately, so do the prices of meat, poultry, and eggs.

    Escalating food costs present a greater problem than soaring oil prices for the national economy. Food accounts for 13 percent of household spending compared with 4 percent for gas.
    .
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    If it cuts down on how much people drive, and rlieves congestion maybe we'll be happier in the end.

    In the last 2 years I've gone from a 5.7L V-8, to a 3.0L V-6, to a 2.3L 4cyl. turbo w/direct injection (Mazdaspeed6). I'm not sure how much my mpg will improve - I bet some in the city. But now I'm locked into 91+ octane. Oh well, it's only $; I can't enjoy $ (and beer) in heaven!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now that's the right attitude! You don't need gas in the next life either! Thank God!

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Better clean up your act if you want to get in, lol:

    Vatican lists "new sins," including pollution (Reuters)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Seems a shame to have streets of gold and no Ferrari to drive :)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I guess this will do until Ferrari makes an electric Ferrari.

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Of the cities surveyed, the cheapest price was in Cheyenne, Wyo., where a gallon of regular cost $2.95, on average. The highest was in San Francisco at $3.58."

    And the Lundberg survey always lags a few days behind, so prices may have gone even higher than that. I know that here in San Francisco, the evening news had a piece on Friday indicating average prices around the bay, and San Francisco was listed at $3.70, not $3.58. $3.58 is where it was a week before that.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Better clean up your act if you want to get in,

    I want to ask that cardinal why it isn't a sin for the Creator to sit idly by and not help us! Would we make our pets suffer, if they swallowed something they shouldn't have been chewing on?

    Maybe we should beseech the cardinals and pope to pray for just 1 more miracle - a multiplication of the oil fields? ;)
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    As I heard "The average price of self-serve regular gasoline on Friday was $3.19 a gallon" on the radio this morning, I passed a gas station where the price was $3.19...so that holds for Dallas, more or less.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The scary thing is that demand for diesel will increase as more choices become available. Right now the consumer market demand for diesel is almost negligable. Imagine when there are 20 diesel options offered for sale?

    Demand will increase, and so will diesel prices.

    In Brazil diesel costs HALF what gas costs. I'm sure it's not the low sulfur variety, but still.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is a link with the stse by state average. CA an HI state what you quoted as an AVERAGE $3.57 for Reg....That mean you are flirting with $3.70's as you said...OUCH!!

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,469
    Now that gas prices are finally shooting up, will irresponsible municipalities finally be forced to sequence their stoplights and improve traffic flows to decrease in wasted gas? Or will 'good enough for government work' still be the law of the land?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Diesel is 18.6% above current price of Regular nationwide. If you are correct, the efficiency of diesels will be negated IMO.

    Why is the cost so much more in the US? Is that the same for comparison to Urope and Asia? I know in the Middle East there is no issue, that's for sure!

    Regards,
    OW
This discussion has been closed.