Speaking of the global economy and the world getting smaller: Here's something that just became effective (in the works for about a year but now apparently 'final'):
04/02/2007
WASHINGTON DC – The United States and the Republic of Korea yesterday, April 1, successfully concluded a free trade agreement that will create economic opportunities for their people and enhance their economic and strategic partnership.
“This is a historic moment for our two countries. The United States-Korea Free Trade Agreement (KORUS FTA) will provide U.S. farmers, ranchers, manufacturers, and service providers exciting new market opportunities in a growing, dynamic country. It will contribute to Korea’s successful transformation to a 21st century economic power," said U.S. Trade Representative Susan C. Schwab.
(for the 'average Joe', you got to sell it first as a good thing for the US)....
Historically, Korea has been one of the most protected agricultural markets in the world. The KORUS FTA will create highly valuable new export opportunities for American farmers and ranchers by eliminating and phasing out tariffs and quotas on a broad range of products. Under the agreement, over $1 billion worth of U.S. farm exports to Korea will become duty-free immediately. Most remaining tariffs and quotas will be phased out over the first ten years the agreement is in force.
(note the phase-out of MOST over the first ten years)
The KORUS FTA will eliminate discrimination in engine displacement-based taxes, long a significant impediment to market access in Korea. The agreement contains strong commitments to addresses the specific standards-related concerns raised by U.S. auto manufacturers ....
(good for the US car manufacturers)
Industrial Goods and Consumer Products
Nearly 95% of bilateral trade in consumer and industrial products becomes duty-free within three years of entry into force of the Agreement, with most remaining tariffs eliminated within 10 years
(I think there is a 2.5 percent duty on Korean cars being imported into the US, so that should go away... Coincidentally there is a 40 percent duty on US beef going into Korea. Now THAT will help the beef exporters..)
Amen. If "Firth of Fifth" and doesn't come to mind, there's something wrong with ya Peter Gabriel, reveal the trick of the tale.
chiefload, you may well be my new favorite member. (with apologies to those who are fans of equivalently brilliant bands & humor mongers)
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Yeah, but if it is hard to pronounce Hyundai in some languages, just imagine what Firth Of Fifth would do....
(by the way: one of my favorite 70's memories is crossing the Firth Of Forth in Scotland by train, listening deliberately to Genesis' Firth Of Fifth... at the ripe old age of 16.... Oh those were the days...)
A pickup is still rumored and ways off. The BH/Genesis will arrive first - 100% positive.
No dates for production released yet but the timeline (from the above post) will give us an approx. time period. This car is production ready and coming next year.
How about renaming the entire Hyundai brand "Genesis"? The Genesis Sonata and Genesis Azera could be differentiated from the "luxury" branch of the Genesis brand by giving simple letter names like Genesis M luxury sedan to the proposed Hyundai Genesis.
Maybe there should be a Genesis luxury brand, and Kia could become the name for both the Hyundai and Kia brands and all their cars. Would that work, I don't know much about the cheap cars both brands make. I'm guessing not, since Kia probably makes similar cars to Hyundai just slightly cheaper.
In addition to midsize M, Genesis luxury cars could include S small sedan to compete primarily with the great new G35 (Genesis/Hyundai and everyone else needs to look at the new G35 dashboard center console to learn about ergonomics and elegant design), L large sedan competing with S550/LS600hL/760iL, G coupe, C convertible competing with C70/335Ci, X for a more lux version of veracruz crossover SUV competing with RX350/MDX/SRX, and possibly R very small IS/A4 type sedan, F small coupe, B roadster competing with Z4/CLK, V or Y for offroading SUV or Portico minivan/SUV, etc.
Anything short of creating a separate luxury brand probably wouldn't work, luxury buyers have an ego, all over the world, they demand a pure luxury brand. That's partly why Acura with their cheap front wheel drive cars doesn't do so well in sales or with auto reviewers or with brand prestige, and the RL bombed. Genesis luxury cars should stay away from FWD like the widely hated ES350 and TL or RSX, and concentrate on RWD and I would suggest AWD available across the entire line like Audi (or Infiniti?) to distinguish themselves as the Asian Audi only with better quality like the Korean Lexus and unbeatable value.
The best thing would be to create a separate luxury Genesis brand, it worked for Toyota/Lexus, and Hyundai is trying to copy and beat Toyota/Lexus in everything it does. There's a huge difference between Lexus dealerships which supposedly pamper and have the best customer service in the industry and Toyota dealerships which just try to sell high volume and can be pushy.
Hyundai is the furthest thing on earth from a luxury brand and Hyundai luxury cars will never be accepted or sell, isn't that obvious? I'm frankly stunned that Hyundai is considering let alone planning on selling such a world class luxury car to compete with Lexus' top of the line LS460 as a Hyundai. That would be a disaster talked about in business schools for decades. Are they crazy, do they know nothing about luxury customers?
Genesis/Hyundai/Kia should be like Lexus/Toyota/Scion or Lincoln/Mercury/Ford. Except maybe change the Hyundai name to something completely original and cool sounding, any ideas?
I follow this thread daily, checking for new posts many times a day. It's much pleasure to read your great posts and see how enthusiastic all of you are about the car. I live in Korea right now but have spent some time in the States mainly in Boston area and great old state of NC, Winston-Salem and Charlotte. I'm very excited about the Genesis too. In Korea, the car's usually referred to as the new Dynasty, which is a step down from the flagship car Equss. I drive Santa Fe (2004, diesel VGT model, 2.0).
If Hyundai follows snakeweasel's idea to name their luxury division Genesis, not only they can use each book of the Bibiel, but they could also use people's name too! Like Delilah for instance! Absalom, Nebuchadnezzar, and so on. The possibilities are endless!!! :P :P :P
Hyundai has been following the Toyota/Lexus playbook during its rise in quality and respect, why stop now? The biggest success Toyota had was when they created a brand new Lexus brand with the V8 LS400 in 89, which cost $35,000 or about $15-20,000 less than the competition. The Genesis M starting a new luxury division would be the same thing and it would work for Hyundai just like it worked for Toyota/Lexus. With RWD and AWD, Hyundai is aiming to top BMW's 5 series in handling and refinement so auto journalists should love it like they loved the LS400, maybe even more. A Genesis brand would revolutionize the auto industry like Lexus did, and could eventually rise to the top, at least among Asian luxury brands.
If they still decide to call this a Hyundai Genesis, where do they go from there with a future luxury division? With a 4.6L V8 and 197 inches long, it's the exact length and engine size as new Lexus flagship LS460, supposedly interior room will be even bigger. LS460 has 380 hp and costs $60,000+. So would Hyundai's first luxury division car have a 400-500 hp engine and cost $50,000? That should be the top of the line Genesis luxury line model fighting the 7 series, S class, and LS L. Some people say Hyundai should test the waters with a Hyundai Veracruz and Genesis then come out with a luxury division with the second generation of those models. But why would luxury buyers who already turn their noses up at Hyundai or even Acura want to buy a rebadged second generation Hyundai? I don't think Hyundai can start a luxury brand with a car that's worse than a top of the line Hyundai, wouldn't make sense. And this car is so good the only way to top it is with a car too expensive for their target market to buy.
I'm planning on buying a loaded 08 Infiniti G35x in about a year for MSRP $41,000 negotiated to $38,000. If Hyundai decides to start a luxury brand I'd consider a loaded AWD V8 Genesis M sedan just for the value and to be one of the first to get in on the brand even though I don't need a car that big. However there's no way I'm moving from my old Lexus ES300 to a Hyundai Genesis no matter how good it is or what kind of bang for the buck it has. Shallow? Maybe, but that's just the way luxury car buyers are, even at the entry level. Do you think even one BMW 3 series buyer would consider any Hyundai? Hyundai is no Infiniti let alone BMW or Lexus, and it never will be and shouldn't try to be. They'll sell less than half as many cars if they call this a Hyundai instead of starting a Genesis luxury brand.
Agree that Hyundai should create a luxury brand. As matter of fact I think the production Genesis should debut with the announcement of the luxury brand. The name Genesis for the brand sounds a little bit cheesy but it's better than nothing.
To start a new luxury brand Hyundai needs 2 more models to go along with the Genesis, which can be easily accomplished by Hyundai today. Here's the initial lineup I have in mind for it:
Entry level sedan: RWD, V6, around 280HP, about the size of a 3-series, sharing platform with Genesis. Starting MSRP: $25K Mid size sedan: The Genesis. Starting MSRP: $34K Mid size SUV: Take Veracruz out of Hyundai, load it up and plug it in here. Starting MSRP: $30K
As one can see, 2 of the 3 models are already in place and the only work to be done here is to design the sheetmetal, interior and modify Genesis' platform for its baby brother.
Genesis luxury cars should stay away from FWD like the widely hated ES350 and TL or RSX,
Agree that the Hyundai luxury division should be all RWD but neither the ES350 and TL are "widely hated" like you stated. As matter of fact, both of them are the best sellers for Lexus and Acura.
Asian Audi
I think Acura is trying to become the Asian Audi by implementing SH-AWD to all models in its lineup.
Wouldn't Hyundai need to decide soon about starting a luxury brand since they'd need to build or convert new dealerships, hire and train staff, etc., before the launch of the Genesis in late 2008? The Genesis luxury brand could start with just 2 cars, that's how Acura (Legend sedan and Integra coupe), Lexus (LS400 and ES250 which was a rebadged Camry), and Infiniti (Q45 and a shortlived coupe) started. Especially if those 2 cars are as diverse as a Genesis M luxury sedan with either 3.8 or 4.6 liter engine, plus a rebadged and upgraded Veracruz SUV with real wood, navigation system, hard drive, etc. Think about it, nobody was going to buy both the LS400 and ES250 sedans back in 89, but people might actually go in and buy both the Genesis M sedan and X SUV within a short period of time. Both the rebadged Genesis and Veracruz could be ready for the planned launch in the last half of 2008.
I didn't mean the ES350, TL, and RSX don't sell, but auto journalists hate FWD and a lot of luxury purists think they cheapen the brand as a fancy Camry or Accord. RWD cars with AWD options on every car should satisfy everyone, and get the positive reviews that would be critical for the success of the new Genesis luxury brand.
Some think Hyundai, couldn't emerge into a major player in the luxury field. I still see Kia, becoming a Toyota, like brand but with kia prices and Hyundai, becoming a Lexus like brand with well Hyundai, like prices. I think it's a waste of money to spend the extra money for a emblem when I'd rather have the better product for less. Hyundai, will find lots of buyers for it's cars as I still think their is huge market for people looking for a Lexus, but can't afford or don't want to spend there hard earned cash just to have a emblem. Hyundai, IMHO could be the biggest automobile company in the world by 2025, if not a lot sooner IF they can maintain this trend.
Thanks.....I do think they will not get greedy like Toylexus and "value" will always be a signature of Hykia, especially since removed the 2.5% tariff from them.
I agree with what you say here. Hyundai has built a name of providing a lot for much less. Many people will be looking at the Genesis simply because of that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You are right. You likely will NOT be able to bring many present BMW, MB, Lexus owners to take a Hyundai, regardless of whether it comes with the Hyundai badge or a Hyundai-assocaited badge, as their next luxury car.
But... you have a big group out there that is now and in the future upgrading from middle of the road type cars to entry level luxury to eventually full luxury vehicles. Some of them will got for the old brands, some undoubtedly will (with Hyundai having a good track record) be 'sensible' and go with what they consider to be best bang for the buck.
I'm due to replace my current car with another set of wheels. I'm looking at the Azera and various other mid-size cars, just below 30,000. I could see myself though driving the present car another year, just to wait for the Genesis. That would then be MY entry into the luxury class.... And I don't think I would be the only one who sees himself entering the luxury class via a Hyundai/whatever badge.
There is some question in my mind why I would shell out 10 - 15,000 extra for the 'brand'... No doubt that Lexus and Infinity produces extraordinary cars with very good reliability. But is it worth to me personally to spend that extra money...
I come from an extended family of Lexus, BMW and Acura owners. They would not be CAUGHT DEAD owning a Hyundai. Some have serious "image" concerns. Can you see an attorney driving clients around in a Hyundai? No way.
They all LOVE my Azera and when we have gatherings or dinner appointments, they always choose my Azera over their higher priced cars (well . . . maybe they just want me to drive). Anyway, they have nothing but praise for my Hyundai Azera.
However, the "image" of that car company steers them away. I think it would be a mistake to keep the Hyundai name for their luxury line. They need to break off.
While I would like to see Hyundai's luxury brand, I can see why in near-term Hyundai vehicles continue to be badged under the Hyundai nameplate. Despite the past baggage (which is quickly disposed), it is still more recognized than a new brand. Regardless, you have to start somewhere to build equity, timing, however, is critical.
There are other issues such as dealer network which need to sorted and worked out.
I disagree. I just don't see Kia with that kind of brand clout for many years. When shopping for my new Azera, I looked at a dozen or so cars from most manufacturers - Altima and Maxima from Nissan, Camry and Avalon from Toyota, Accord from Honda, Sonata and Azera from Hyundai, and some of the luxury entry levels - Acura TL, Infinity G35, Volvo S60, and Lexus ES and IS. Never once did I ever consider the Amanti or Optima. If Hyundai is going to do the luxury brand, it's gonna have to be under a new nameplate. Hyundai as Toyota, sure, but Kia as Toyota? Not in my opinion.
"If Hyundai follows snakeweasel's idea to name their luxury division Genesis, not only they can use each book of the Bibiel, but they could also use people's name too! Like Delilah for instance! Absalom, Nebuchadnezzar, and so on."
Like to see someone try the "badgeless" look by removing all the identification from a Hyundai Nebuchadnezzar!...
Hyundai still has a long way to go to promote the luxury image. Many of the local dealerships appear to be very shabby and in disrepair. Most of the local dealerships in my area have changed ownership in the last couple of years. Several have closed completely, From what I have been told at my local dealership, the corporate support and communications have been poor. Most owners participating on these forums indicate lack of help and support from Hyundai Consumer Affairs. Participation in the luxury market, in my opinion, requires more than having the cheapest price. "Luxury" buyers demand more.
You are the Hyundai, customer. One who wants all the luxury, quality, reliability, but doesn't want to shell out the extra dough to have a certain emblem. The same aplly's to clothes. I will not pay the extra money to have a logo on my [non-permissible content removed]. If the clothes are comfy and look good I will buy them. I do try to buy american made clothes and shoes if they aren't ripping me off over a style trend.
Well I think it would be a mistake for Hyundai, to break off because that's where you get caught up with prices, emblems, image. Who gives a crap about image. If Johnny, jumps off the cliff are you going to follow him ? I don't want to look like a idiot and say hey look at what I paid for this. I know I got ripped off and threw money down the drain but I'm trendy. Good God, grow up people !!!!
If Hyundai, broke off and created a luxury division it would ruin there place in the market place. If I'm going to have to wear the price tag of my new shirt to show everyone what I paid for it or in this case drive at least a month with the original window sticker, I might as well become a "no self confidence" sucker and buy the originals like a BMW 5 series, Lexus LS, Mercedes E class. Hell if your going to price them up by creating a seperate brand I'd rather go buy a Cadillac. I thought this was Hyundai's appeal to the customer. They are a car company that will give you pretty much everything at a discounted price. You can get Armani style and quality at Costco prices.
Enjoy your Azera, and feel confident about driving it. My god this isn't the 80's when Hyundai, made some eyebrow raisers. I'd drive the Azera, over a Toyoda anyday.
Hyundai still has a long way to go to promote the luxury image.
I really don't think Hyundai is trying to promote a "luxury image". I think Hyundai is trying to promote the same more for less that they have been in the past. IMHO Hyundais target market with the Genesis is not the Lexus, MB and BMW buyer but the Avalon buyer who wants more but will not or cannot shell out the money to buy a Lexus, MB or BMW.
Many of the local dealerships appear to be very shabby and in disrepair.
many of the local ones here seem to be in good shape. One even sells Buicks and Saabs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I absolutely don't see hyundai going ubber luxury. I see them more taking on the middle class and upper middle class demographic that wants a "luxury" car but doesn't have the means to pay for the "luxury" brands such as Lexus, Acura, MB, BMW, Caddy and don't really care about the "service" provided by those brands such as the free loaners, and the doting over the customer that we see from those high-end brands. Essentially they want something luxury and a middle of the road price. This is where I think Hyundai can shine and really make themselves into the only player in a niche market.
I know myself not having enough loot to buy into the "luxury" class of vehicle would jump on something like this in a heartbeat. I don't need to have the sales guys or the service guys give me a latte when I bring it in for service, nor do I need a loaner car. More of a blue-collar luxury car than a blue-blood luxury car!
rockylee, you seriously see Hyundai "beoming a Lexus like brand with Hyundai like prices"? What are you smoking?? Hyundai makes the cheapest cars in the world along with Kia and still has a bad reputation among the vast majority of people, and you think they're going to be the absolute pinnacle of luxury like Lexus? When people think Lexus the company or even Lexus the word, it is the very definition of luxury, because Toyota planned it that way from the start, as a LUXURY ONLY brand.
You say you "think it's a waste of money to spend the extra money for a emblem when I'd rather have the better product for less". What extra money? Hyundai will charge $29-40,000 for the upcoming Genesis sedan whether it's a Hyundai or a new luxury division car with a name like Genesis M.
The only difference is a new luxury division will appeal to both luxury car owners as well as economy car owners looking to move up, while keeping it a Hyundai will only appeal to economy car owners. Even the economy car owners would rather have a Genesis luxury brand car for the same price compared to having the same car called a Hyundai. So really, Hyundai/Genesis could sell 4 times as many of these cars if they created a luxury brand. So the downside of calling it a Hyundai is huge, and there is no downside to creating a new luxury division which Hyundai is definitely going to do anyway. It wouldn't make sense to make a car this good and not make it part of the inevitable luxury division. Calling it a Hyundai would lose a lot of money and sales and market share.
Would anybody here who currently drives a luxury car buy a Hyundai instead of another luxury brand car? I know I wouldn't because the new G35x is an almost perfect car. Well the number of luxury car owners even looking at this thread is a tiny fraction of the total number of luxury car owners, and most of them wouldn't even think of considering a Hyundai. Think of the 95% of the rest of luxury car buyers, a Genesis luxury car company could sell to them just like Lexus does.
I never said it was going to be a over night thing. I'm looking will into the next decade. Toyota, nor Honda, had the clout when they came to the states. They won customers by under cutting the compeitition. They gave you a lot more car for a lot less money. They presently feel they can charge whatever they want and get customers still. I think there is a bunch of people in this world who could care less about a emblem. They want the best damn car for their buck. That's how the millionaire next door made his money. He wanted luxury but wasn't going to spend his hard earn cash on mark-ups. It would be like throwing good money down a drain. If Hyundai, can continue to build better Kia's to match Toyota's offerings at a cheaper price and if Hyundai, can build Lexus, like vehicles at Toyota, prices you will see success in the long-term in my estimation.
You are smoking something believing that by creating a seperate luxury brand which btw will cost perhaps in the billions to do is going to get luxury car buyers out of there Lexus's, Acura's, Mercedes, Cadillac's. I suppose a small fraction would look at the Genesis luxury brand or whatever you want to call it if it was expensive enough. I think by creating a seperate luxury brand would be a huge mistake at this point. They do not need three brands. So you aresaying eliminate Kia, and call them Hyundai, and have Hyundai/Genesis as the two brands. Kia, sells a lot of inexpensive automobiles and makes a good profit doing it. I think Kia, can build themselves up and also offer nicer cars that will go head to head against camcords. Hyundai, can get away with moving slightly up market but still remain inexpensive to under cut the competition.
I respect you perspective but I feel right now and in the near future this isn't the time to make a seperate brand.
Participation in the luxury market, in my opinion, requires more than having the cheapest price. "Luxury" buyers demand more.
I agree.....I think Hyundai, is still relatively young and they need to get the kinks worked out with their two brands they have now before thinking about creating another brand.
WOW.........Now you put what I said into better words.
That is exactly the way I see it. I think their is a huge market for blue-collar luxury and when the sales reports come in I believe us that think this way will be proven right. Just look at the new Veracruz SUV. That ride is smoking hott and is something middle and upper middle class folks can afford without going broke !!!!!
rockylee, so are you saying Toyota made a mistake in starting the Lexus brand? You'd be laughed out of every business school in the country if you said something like that, Lexus has been a tremendous success. Just because you personally would like a $40,000 Hyundai doesn't mean anybody else would. You don't drive a luxury car do you? Nobody who drives a luxury car would consider a Hyundai. While both luxury car drivers and economy car drivers would consider a new luxury division Genesis car and even the economy car drivers would prefer that it be called a Genesis luxury division car instead of a Hyundai.
I never said get rid of Kia, what does that have to do with starting a luxury division? Kia sounds much cooler than Hyundai, and having 3 divisions Genesis/Hyundai/Kia is fine like Lexus/Toyota/Scion or Lincoln/Mercury/Ford.
I think you may be looking 15 years into the future and thinking of your wallet instead of Hyundai's profits. When Toyota first started Lexus, the original LS400 undercut the competition by $15-20,000 and still was considered a superior product by many. Nowadays a Lexus is just as expensive, the LS 600 hL will start at $104,000. So I think rockylee fears that if a new Genesis luxury division gets as much praise and sales as everyone knows it will, then it will follow the path of Lexus and prices will go up to the point that he won't be able to afford them anymore. Well too bad. Hyundai/Genesis is trying to make money, not save you money. That's the way corporations work, they want to make the most money possible, and starting a new luxury division will do that, obviously. Calling it a Hyundai would lose a lot of money, sales, and market share, nobody can deny that.
You do realize that Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are all made up for the USDM right? Everywhere else in the world where people aren't as sheepish as they are here in the US they are known as Toyota, Honda and Nissan! Similarly, MB sells more "blue collar" cars than "luxury" cars outside the USDM.
"Lexus brand name vehicles are sold in North America, Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Oceania, Africa, and Latin America"
"Acura is a brand name used by the Japanese car manufacturer Honda in the US, Canada and Hong Kong since March 1986 to market luxury automobiles and near-luxury vehicles. The brand was introduced to Mexico in 2004 and to the Chinese market in 2006. It is also planned to extend Acura to the Japanese domestic market in 2008."
"Infiniti is a Japanese brand used by Nissan, an automobile manufacturer and serves as Nissan's luxury brand to the United States, Canadian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, South Korean (first dealership opened in July 2005) and Taiwanese markets. Nissan also has plans to release Infiniti into many European markets (Russia & Ukraine in 2007, United Kingdom in 2008 [1]), China (10 dealerships by 2007), as well as in Japan sometime after 2008."
Anyone that owns a luxury car will only consider luxury brands, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and Volkswagen/Audi figured that out long ago. A Genesis luxury brand would maximize profits for Hyundai and would appeal to a much wider group of people than just calling it a Hyundai.
Oh right I forgot the Wikipedia is always right. I've found more incorrect facts there than correct ones, so please don't quote it as gospel.
Ok, maybe not only NA, however in most markets it's not split up, there are never any absolutes, but for the most part outside the US, these luxo brands are considered the same as the parent company. Especially in Japan, their own Domestic market!
Anyone that owns a luxury car will only consider luxury brands, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and Volkswagen/Audi figured that out long ago. A Genesis luxury brand would maximize profits for Hyundai and would appeal to a much wider group of people than just calling it a Hyundai. Anyone who owns a luxury car, won't be buying a Hyundai under any name. Heck most won't buy VW/Audi, Infiniti or Acura for that matter! And to put the VW name up there with "luxury" is funny. Remember the Phaeton?
My whole family owns German and Japanese luxury cars and we'd all consider Genesis luxury cars, we'd never consider a Hyundai. In fact I talked to a Korean American whose family owns several luxury cars and he said the same thing about the Hyundai Genesis, his family would never buy a Hyundai but would love to consider new luxury division Genesis cars. VW Phaeton didn't sell, Hyundai Genesis won't sell.
Hyundai is copying Toyota in everything it does, just look at the Camry grill on the Genesis! Toyota started Lexus with a RWD V8 luxury sedan costing $15-20,000 less than the competition and revolutionized the car industry as well as their profits. Hyundai wants and needs to do the same with their own luxury division. It's like 1989 all over again, we all must learn from history about proven unbeatable strategies.
Ok well we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Who knows you might be right. I am not opposed to a luxury division but I think right now it's in their best interest to NOT start a new division. Build on what they have, and go from there. This is where the Blue-Blood Luxury Cars v. Blue-Collar Luxury Cars come in, Blue-Blooded folks need their EGOs stroked by having an exclusive car company, whereas Blue-Collar folks aren't so hung up on the badge on the car.
rockylee, so are you saying Toyota made a mistake in starting the Lexus brand? You'd be laughed out of every business school in the country if you said something like that, Lexus has been a tremendous success.
I never said that. Toyota, has been very successful starting up Lexus, and at one time the Lexus, brand under cut Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, but when the brand first started not all of them were great cars. What was the first Camry clone Lexus, made ? It was a Camry with a Lexus emblem on it. At least today they look a lot more different even if the Lexus, model is a rebadge toyota.
I think Hyundai, can be a Lexus brand with careful planning. Yes it will take time and money to get the appeal but the most important thing is for Hyundai, is to not go head to head with Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, in pricing themselves high. I think if they can keep the blue- collar Lexus image going they will win a lot of buyers because like paisan, said we middle-upper middle class want the luxury but don't have the loot.
Just because you personally would like a $40,000 Hyundai doesn't mean anybody else would. You don't drive a luxury car do you?
Let's see I've owned 2 Cadillac's and 1 Acura TL, but currently no I don't own a luxury car but more than likely my next car will be a luxury performance car.
Nobody who drives a luxury car would consider a Hyundai.
Well I disagree because some would rather save there money than waste it on a emblem. Rich people who worked for there money didn't get it by being wasteful. I also don't think Hyundai, is after those buyers anyways as I'd be willing to bet 80% of there sales come from blue collar americans that want to reward themselves with a affordable luxury vehicle.
While both luxury car drivers and economy car drivers would consider a new luxury division Genesis car and even the economy car drivers would prefer that it be called a Genesis luxury division car instead of a Hyundai.
I honestly could care less. I don't need a emblem to judge a car whether it's worthy or not. I will judge the product not the name. Only a fool will spend more to get less or the same IMHO !!!!!
I never said get rid of Kia, what does that have to do with starting a luxury division? Kia sounds much cooler than Hyundai, and having 3 divisions Genesis/Hyundai/Kia is fine like Lexus/Toyota/Scion or Lincoln/Mercury/Ford.
Scion, is on life support. I've only seen two Scion's since the brand has came out. It might be successful on the coasts but they are a rare find in the midwest and southern states. Lincoln Ford, Mercury, isn't a sucess. Mercury, Ford, and Lincoln, have to many rebadges. Ford, has thought about killing off Mercury for years as the brand is too much like Ford. Lincoln, has the MKZ, which is a Milan, with a upscale interior. you gotta be kidding me. :surprise:
I think you may be looking 15 years into the future and thinking of your wallet instead of Hyundai's profits. When Toyota first started Lexus, the original LS400 undercut the competition by $15-20,000 and still was considered a superior product by many.
It took them 5 years before they starting showing signs of being successful. The original LS 400 was a disaster with problems. Sure now it's a icon in the Luxury field but it wasn't all good at the beginning. They did gain sales by under cutting the competition like you said but now they have moved so far up market that young kids buying toyota's are more than likely will never own a Lexus LS. They would have to settle for a rebadged Camry in the ES 350, or a rebadged Highlander in the RX 330, and the IS, is so small only the "little people" from the "wizard of oz" can drive them. :P
Nowadays a Lexus is just as expensive, the LS 600 hL will start at $104,000. So I think rockylee fears that if a new Genesis luxury division gets as much praise and sales as everyone knows it will, then it will follow the path of Lexus and prices will go up to the point that he won't be able to afford them anymore.
That is somewhat true but then I can afford a Cadillac, STS. My point is then another luxury brand will come along and replace Hyundai. I think the luxury brand field is to crowded as it is now let alone place another one in the market. I feel there is a place for a niche brand like Hyundai, to be the working mans Cadillac. I do think over time if Hyundai, stays in this segment of being that you will see some price cuts from the top. If Hyundai, builds a 500 hp BMW M5 Genesis, for lets say $49,000 why would any one in there right mind go waste $30-40K to own a M5, unless you have so much money you don't care. :confuse:
Well too bad.
To bad for who ? I have not seen Hyundai, annouce they are going to have a luxury emblem to satisfy your insecurity. What you think if you buy a HYUNDAI Genesis, you won't be invited to the cocktail party's ? I personally don't want to associate myself with people that are that arrogant. I like down to earth folks.
Hyundai/Genesis is trying to make money, not save you money.
They will make money by saving me money. If they overcharge like the other luxury emblems why would I bother buying a Genesis, when I can buy a Lexus for the same money ? Lexus, has a reputation for superb customer service and I could get a latte in the service department while I wait. See where I'm getting at ? Probably not ! :surprise:
That's the way corporations work, they want to make the most money possible, and starting a new luxury division will do that, obviously. Calling it a Hyundai would lose a lot of money, sales, and market share, nobody can deny that.
I think your proposal would be a disaster, thus I'm denying it. I think as Hyundai, management said they want to make the Genesis, as the millionaire next door will buy. They don't want to charge you a obscene price for a emblem. If Hyundai, sticks to this philosophy, they could easily be one of the automotive giants by 2015. I mean be in the top 3 is sales volume.
These posts are getting too long. The main point is, a Genesis luxury division would appeal to both the luxury car owners, and the economy car owners looking to move up, let's say there's 15,000 of each of those 2 groups that would buy a Genesis M luxury division sedan. A Hyundai would only appeal to economy car owners and some of those 15,000 economy owners that would have opted for a luxury division Genesis won't want a Hyundai because they want to move up from a Toyota to an Infiniti or Lexus, not move down to a Hyundai no matter how good it is.
So with a luxury Genesis division, 30,000 of these cars are sold.
Calling it a Hyundai, 10,000 are sold.
The Genesis is much better than anything Acura or Infiniti sells and is the equal of Lexus' 380 hp flagship LS460 in length and engine size and plans to be roomier and sportier. Hyundai plans on eventually starting a luxury brand, well if they don't start one with this $40,000 car, what the heck are they going to start it with?? A $50,000 car with 500 hp???
RE: 148 Where is this Genesis that you claim is better than Acura and Lexus. I believe that this is still a concept car and that the first production model has yet to be produced and tested. As a first time Hyundai ( Azera) owner, I am pleased with the car, but feel that the corporate support has a long way to go. They should address some of these issues prior to introducing too many new models.
Here are a couple of pictures from Hyundai concept cars. I don't remember where I got them but just sharing for you to see. See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
"I am thinking Hyundai corporate should just provide a decent set of Hyundai badged earmuffs to those few 06 Azera owners who think they hear a clunk. "
Comments
yep then they could name their models:
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
and
Deuteronomy
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Everytime I see the name Genesis mentioned I have a strong urge to yell
KHAAAANNNNNNN!!!!
(Sorry, too much Star Trek in my youth)
04/02/2007
WASHINGTON DC – The United States and the Republic of Korea yesterday, April 1, successfully concluded a free trade agreement that will create economic opportunities for their people and enhance their economic and strategic partnership.
“This is a historic moment for our two countries. The United States-Korea Free Trade Agreement (KORUS FTA) will provide U.S. farmers, ranchers, manufacturers, and service providers exciting new market opportunities in a growing, dynamic country. It will contribute to Korea’s successful transformation to a 21st century economic power," said U.S. Trade Representative Susan C. Schwab.
(for the 'average Joe', you got to sell it first as a good thing for the US)....
Historically, Korea has been one of the most protected agricultural markets in the world. The KORUS FTA will create highly valuable new export opportunities for American farmers and ranchers by eliminating and phasing out tariffs and quotas on a broad range of products. Under the agreement, over $1 billion worth of U.S. farm exports to Korea will become duty-free immediately. Most remaining tariffs and quotas will be phased out over the first ten years the agreement is in force.
(note the phase-out of MOST over the first ten years)
The KORUS FTA will eliminate discrimination in engine displacement-based taxes, long a significant impediment to market access in Korea. The agreement contains strong commitments to addresses the specific standards-related concerns raised by U.S. auto manufacturers ....
(good for the US car manufacturers)
Industrial Goods and Consumer Products
Nearly 95% of bilateral trade in consumer and industrial products becomes duty-free within three years of entry into force of the Agreement, with most remaining tariffs eliminated within 10 years
(I think there is a 2.5 percent duty on Korean cars being imported into the US, so that should go away... Coincidentally there is a 40 percent duty on US beef going into Korea. Now THAT will help the beef exporters..)
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Trespas
Foxtrot
Duke
Abacab
or
The Collins
The Gabriel
The Hackett
chiefload, you may well be my new favorite member.
(with apologies to those who are fans of equivalently brilliant bands & humor mongers)
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
(by the way: one of my favorite 70's memories is crossing the Firth Of Forth in Scotland by train, listening deliberately to Genesis' Firth Of Fifth... at the ripe old age of 16.... Oh those were the days...)
No dates for production released yet but the timeline (from the above post) will give us an approx. time period. This car is production ready and coming next year.
Maybe there should be a Genesis luxury brand, and Kia could become the name for both the Hyundai and Kia brands and all their cars. Would that work, I don't know much about the cheap cars both brands make. I'm guessing not, since Kia probably makes similar cars to Hyundai just slightly cheaper.
In addition to midsize M, Genesis luxury cars could include S small sedan to compete primarily with the great new G35 (Genesis/Hyundai and everyone else needs to look at the new G35 dashboard center console to learn about ergonomics and elegant design), L large sedan competing with S550/LS600hL/760iL, G coupe, C convertible competing with C70/335Ci, X for a more lux version of veracruz crossover SUV competing with RX350/MDX/SRX, and possibly R very small IS/A4 type sedan, F small coupe, B roadster competing with Z4/CLK, V or Y for offroading SUV or Portico minivan/SUV, etc.
Anything short of creating a separate luxury brand probably wouldn't work, luxury buyers have an ego, all over the world, they demand a pure luxury brand. That's partly why Acura with their cheap front wheel drive cars doesn't do so well in sales or with auto reviewers or with brand prestige, and the RL bombed. Genesis luxury cars should stay away from FWD like the widely hated ES350 and TL or RSX, and concentrate on RWD and I would suggest AWD available across the entire line like Audi (or Infiniti?) to distinguish themselves as the Asian Audi only with better quality like the Korean Lexus and unbeatable value.
The best thing would be to create a separate luxury Genesis brand, it worked for Toyota/Lexus, and Hyundai is trying to copy and beat Toyota/Lexus in everything it does. There's a huge difference between Lexus dealerships which supposedly pamper and have the best customer service in the industry and Toyota dealerships which just try to sell high volume and can be pushy.
Hyundai is the furthest thing on earth from a luxury brand and Hyundai luxury cars will never be accepted or sell, isn't that obvious? I'm frankly stunned that Hyundai is considering let alone planning on selling such a world class luxury car to compete with Lexus' top of the line LS460 as a Hyundai. That would be a disaster talked about in business schools for decades. Are they crazy, do they know nothing about luxury customers?
Genesis/Hyundai/Kia should be like Lexus/Toyota/Scion or Lincoln/Mercury/Ford. Except maybe change the Hyundai name to something completely original and cool sounding, any ideas?
If Hyundai follows snakeweasel's idea to name their luxury division Genesis, not only they can use each book of the Bibiel, but they could also use people's name too! Like Delilah for instance! Absalom, Nebuchadnezzar, and so on. The possibilities are endless!!! :P :P :P
If they still decide to call this a Hyundai Genesis, where do they go from there with a future luxury division? With a 4.6L V8 and 197 inches long, it's the exact length and engine size as new Lexus flagship LS460, supposedly interior room will be even bigger. LS460 has 380 hp and costs $60,000+. So would Hyundai's first luxury division car have a 400-500 hp engine and cost $50,000? That should be the top of the line Genesis luxury line model fighting the 7 series, S class, and LS L. Some people say Hyundai should test the waters with a Hyundai Veracruz and Genesis then come out with a luxury division with the second generation of those models. But why would luxury buyers who already turn their noses up at Hyundai or even Acura want to buy a rebadged second generation Hyundai? I don't think Hyundai can start a luxury brand with a car that's worse than a top of the line Hyundai, wouldn't make sense. And this car is so good the only way to top it is with a car too expensive for their target market to buy.
I'm planning on buying a loaded 08 Infiniti G35x in about a year for MSRP $41,000 negotiated to $38,000. If Hyundai decides to start a luxury brand I'd consider a loaded AWD V8 Genesis M sedan just for the value and to be one of the first to get in on the brand even though I don't need a car that big. However there's no way I'm moving from my old Lexus ES300 to a Hyundai Genesis no matter how good it is or what kind of bang for the buck it has. Shallow? Maybe, but that's just the way luxury car buyers are, even at the entry level. Do you think even one BMW 3 series buyer would consider any Hyundai? Hyundai is no Infiniti let alone BMW or Lexus, and it never will be and shouldn't try to be. They'll sell less than half as many cars if they call this a Hyundai instead of starting a Genesis luxury brand.
To start a new luxury brand Hyundai needs 2 more models to go along with the Genesis, which can be easily accomplished by Hyundai today. Here's the initial lineup I have in mind for it:
Entry level sedan: RWD, V6, around 280HP, about the size of a 3-series, sharing platform with Genesis. Starting MSRP: $25K
Mid size sedan: The Genesis. Starting MSRP: $34K
Mid size SUV: Take Veracruz out of Hyundai, load it up and plug it in here. Starting MSRP: $30K
As one can see, 2 of the 3 models are already in place and the only work to be done here is to design the sheetmetal, interior and modify Genesis' platform for its baby brother.
Genesis luxury cars should stay away from FWD like the widely hated ES350 and TL or RSX,
Agree that the Hyundai luxury division should be all RWD but neither the ES350 and TL are "widely hated" like you stated. As matter of fact, both of them are the best sellers for Lexus and Acura.
Asian Audi
I think Acura is trying to become the Asian Audi by implementing SH-AWD to all models in its lineup.
I didn't mean the ES350, TL, and RSX don't sell, but auto journalists hate FWD and a lot of luxury purists think they cheapen the brand as a fancy Camry or Accord. RWD cars with AWD options on every car should satisfy everyone, and get the positive reviews that would be critical for the success of the new Genesis luxury brand.
Rocky
-mike
Rocky
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But... you have a big group out there that is now and in the future upgrading from middle of the road type cars to entry level luxury to eventually full luxury vehicles. Some of them will got for the old brands, some undoubtedly will (with Hyundai having a good track record) be 'sensible' and go with what they consider to be best bang for the buck.
I'm due to replace my current car with another set of wheels. I'm looking at the Azera and various other mid-size cars, just below 30,000. I could see myself though driving the present car another year, just to wait for the Genesis. That would then be MY entry into the luxury class.... And I don't think I would be the only one who sees himself entering the luxury class via a Hyundai/whatever badge.
There is some question in my mind why I would shell out 10 - 15,000 extra for the 'brand'... No doubt that Lexus and Infinity produces extraordinary cars with very good reliability. But is it worth to me personally to spend that extra money...
They all LOVE my Azera and when we have gatherings or dinner appointments, they always choose my Azera over their higher priced cars (well . . . maybe they just want me to drive). Anyway, they have nothing but praise for my Hyundai Azera.
However, the "image" of that car company steers them away. I think it would be a mistake to keep the Hyundai name for their luxury line. They need to break off.
There are other issues such as dealer network which need to sorted and worked out.
Like to see someone try the "badgeless" look by removing all the identification from a Hyundai Nebuchadnezzar!...
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Many of the local dealerships appear to be very shabby and in disrepair.
Most of the local dealerships in my area have changed ownership in the last couple of years.
Several have closed completely,
From what I have been told at my local dealership, the corporate support and communications have been poor.
Most owners participating on these forums indicate lack of help and support from Hyundai Consumer Affairs.
Participation in the luxury market, in my opinion, requires more than having the cheapest price.
"Luxury" buyers demand more.
Rocky
Rocky
If Hyundai, broke off and created a luxury division it would ruin there place in the market place. If I'm going to have to wear the price tag of my new shirt to show everyone what I paid for it or in this case drive at least a month with the original window sticker, I might as well become a "no self confidence" sucker and buy the originals like a BMW 5 series, Lexus LS, Mercedes E class.
Enjoy your Azera, and feel confident about driving it. My god this isn't the 80's when Hyundai, made some eyebrow raisers. I'd drive the Azera, over a Toyoda anyday.
Rocky
I really don't think Hyundai is trying to promote a "luxury image". I think Hyundai is trying to promote the same more for less that they have been in the past. IMHO Hyundais target market with the Genesis is not the Lexus, MB and BMW buyer but the Avalon buyer who wants more but will not or cannot shell out the money to buy a Lexus, MB or BMW.
Many of the local dealerships appear to be very shabby and in disrepair.
many of the local ones here seem to be in good shape. One even sells Buicks and Saabs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know myself not having enough loot to buy into the "luxury" class of vehicle would jump on something like this in a heartbeat. I don't need to have the sales guys or the service guys give me a latte when I bring it in for service, nor do I need a loaner car. More of a blue-collar luxury car than a blue-blood luxury car!
-mike
You say you "think it's a waste of money to spend the extra money for a emblem when I'd rather have the better product for less". What extra money? Hyundai will charge $29-40,000 for the upcoming Genesis sedan whether it's a Hyundai or a new luxury division car with a name like Genesis M.
The only difference is a new luxury division will appeal to both luxury car owners as well as economy car owners looking to move up, while keeping it a Hyundai will only appeal to economy car owners. Even the economy car owners would rather have a Genesis luxury brand car for the same price compared to having the same car called a Hyundai. So really, Hyundai/Genesis could sell 4 times as many of these cars if they created a luxury brand. So the downside of calling it a Hyundai is huge, and there is no downside to creating a new luxury division which Hyundai is definitely going to do anyway. It wouldn't make sense to make a car this good and not make it part of the inevitable luxury division. Calling it a Hyundai would lose a lot of money and sales and market share.
Would anybody here who currently drives a luxury car buy a Hyundai instead of another luxury brand car? I know I wouldn't because the new G35x is an almost perfect car. Well the number of luxury car owners even looking at this thread is a tiny fraction of the total number of luxury car owners, and most of them wouldn't even think of considering a Hyundai. Think of the 95% of the rest of luxury car buyers, a Genesis luxury car company could sell to them just like Lexus does.
Rocky
I respect you perspective but I feel right now and in the near future this isn't the time to make a seperate brand.
Rocky
I agree.....I think Hyundai, is still relatively young and they need to get the kinks worked out with their two brands they have now before thinking about creating another brand.
Rocky
That is exactly the way I see it. I think their is a huge market for blue-collar luxury and when the sales reports come in I believe us that think this way will be proven right. Just look at the new Veracruz SUV. That ride is smoking hott and is something middle and upper middle class folks can afford without going broke !!!!!
Rocky
I never said get rid of Kia, what does that have to do with starting a luxury division? Kia sounds much cooler than Hyundai, and having 3 divisions Genesis/Hyundai/Kia is fine like Lexus/Toyota/Scion or Lincoln/Mercury/Ford.
I think you may be looking 15 years into the future and thinking of your wallet instead of Hyundai's profits. When Toyota first started Lexus, the original LS400 undercut the competition by $15-20,000 and still was considered a superior product by many. Nowadays a Lexus is just as expensive, the LS 600 hL will start at $104,000. So I think rockylee fears that if a new Genesis luxury division gets as much praise and sales as everyone knows it will, then it will follow the path of Lexus and prices will go up to the point that he won't be able to afford them anymore. Well too bad. Hyundai/Genesis is trying to make money, not save you money. That's the way corporations work, they want to make the most money possible, and starting a new luxury division will do that, obviously. Calling it a Hyundai would lose a lot of money, sales, and market share, nobody can deny that.
-mike
"Lexus brand name vehicles are sold in North America, Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Oceania, Africa, and Latin America"
"Acura is a brand name used by the Japanese car manufacturer Honda in the US, Canada and Hong Kong since March 1986 to market luxury automobiles and near-luxury vehicles. The brand was introduced to Mexico in 2004 and to the Chinese market in 2006. It is also planned to extend Acura to the Japanese domestic market in 2008."
"Infiniti is a Japanese brand used by Nissan, an automobile manufacturer and serves as Nissan's luxury brand to the United States, Canadian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, South Korean (first dealership opened in July 2005) and Taiwanese markets. Nissan also has plans to release Infiniti into many European markets (Russia & Ukraine in 2007, United Kingdom in 2008 [1]), China (10 dealerships by 2007), as well as in Japan sometime after 2008."
Anyone that owns a luxury car will only consider luxury brands, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and Volkswagen/Audi figured that out long ago. A Genesis luxury brand would maximize profits for Hyundai and would appeal to a much wider group of people than just calling it a Hyundai.
Ok, maybe not only NA, however in most markets it's not split up, there are never any absolutes, but for the most part outside the US, these luxo brands are considered the same as the parent company. Especially in Japan, their own Domestic market!
Anyone that owns a luxury car will only consider luxury brands, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and Volkswagen/Audi figured that out long ago. A Genesis luxury brand would maximize profits for Hyundai and would appeal to a much wider group of people than just calling it a Hyundai.
Anyone who owns a luxury car, won't be buying a Hyundai under any name. Heck most won't buy VW/Audi, Infiniti or Acura for that matter! And to put the VW name up there with "luxury" is funny. Remember the Phaeton?
-mike
Hyundai is copying Toyota in everything it does, just look at the Camry grill on the Genesis! Toyota started Lexus with a RWD V8 luxury sedan costing $15-20,000 less than the competition and revolutionized the car industry as well as their profits. Hyundai wants and needs to do the same with their own luxury division. It's like 1989 all over again, we all must learn from history about proven unbeatable strategies.
-mike
Also in 1989 the USD bought a lot more Yen IIRC, it was much much more of a favorable rate than it is now.
-mike
I never said that. Toyota, has been very successful starting up Lexus, and at one time the Lexus, brand under cut Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, but when the brand first started not all of them were great cars. What was the first Camry clone Lexus, made ? It was a Camry with a Lexus emblem on it. At least today they look a lot more different even if the Lexus, model is a rebadge toyota.
I think Hyundai, can be a Lexus brand with careful planning. Yes it will take time and money to get the appeal but the most important thing is for Hyundai, is to not go head to head with Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, in pricing themselves high. I think if they can keep the blue- collar Lexus image going they will win a lot of buyers because like paisan, said we middle-upper middle class want the luxury but don't have the loot.
Just because you personally would like a $40,000 Hyundai doesn't mean anybody else would. You don't drive a luxury car do you?
Let's see I've owned 2 Cadillac's and 1 Acura TL, but currently no I don't own a luxury car but more than likely my next car will be a luxury performance car.
Nobody who drives a luxury car would consider a Hyundai.
Well I disagree because some would rather save there money than waste it on a emblem. Rich people who worked for there money didn't get it by being wasteful.
While both luxury car drivers and economy car drivers would consider a new luxury division Genesis car and even the economy car drivers would prefer that it be called a Genesis luxury division car instead of a Hyundai.
I honestly could care less. I don't need a emblem to judge a car whether it's worthy or not. I will judge the product not the name. Only a fool will spend more to get less or the same IMHO !!!!!
I never said get rid of Kia, what does that have to do with starting a luxury division? Kia sounds much cooler than Hyundai, and having 3 divisions Genesis/Hyundai/Kia is fine like Lexus/Toyota/Scion or Lincoln/Mercury/Ford.
Scion, is on life support. I've only seen two Scion's since the brand has came out. It might be successful on the coasts but they are a rare find in the midwest and southern states. Lincoln Ford, Mercury, isn't a sucess. Mercury, Ford, and Lincoln, have to many rebadges. Ford, has thought about killing off Mercury for years as the brand is too much like Ford. Lincoln, has the MKZ, which is a Milan, with a upscale interior. you gotta be kidding me. :surprise:
I think you may be looking 15 years into the future and thinking of your wallet instead of Hyundai's profits. When Toyota first started Lexus, the original LS400 undercut the competition by $15-20,000 and still was considered a superior product by many.
It took them 5 years before they starting showing signs of being successful. The original LS 400 was a disaster with problems. Sure now it's a icon in the Luxury field but it wasn't all good at the beginning. They did gain sales by under cutting the competition like you said but now they have moved so far up market that young kids buying toyota's are more than likely will never own a Lexus LS. They would have to settle for a rebadged Camry in the ES 350, or a rebadged Highlander in the RX 330, and the IS, is so small only the "little people" from the "wizard of oz" can drive them. :P
Nowadays a Lexus is just as expensive, the LS 600 hL will start at $104,000. So I think rockylee fears that if a new Genesis luxury division gets as much praise and sales as everyone knows it will, then it will follow the path of Lexus and prices will go up to the point that he won't be able to afford them anymore.
That is somewhat true but then I can afford a Cadillac, STS. My point is then another luxury brand will come along and replace Hyundai. I think the luxury brand field is to crowded as it is now let alone place another one in the market. I feel there is a place for a niche brand like Hyundai, to be the working mans Cadillac. I do think over time if Hyundai, stays in this segment of being that you will see some price cuts from the top. If Hyundai, builds a 500 hp BMW M5 Genesis, for lets say $49,000 why would any one in there right mind go waste $30-40K to own a M5, unless you have so much money you don't care. :confuse:
Well too bad.
To bad for who ? I have not seen Hyundai, annouce they are going to have a luxury emblem to satisfy your insecurity. What you think if you buy a HYUNDAI Genesis, you won't be invited to the cocktail party's ? I personally don't want to associate myself with people that are that arrogant. I like down to earth folks.
Hyundai/Genesis is trying to make money, not save you money.
They will make money by saving me money. If they overcharge like the other luxury emblems why would I bother buying a Genesis, when I can buy a Lexus for the same money ? Lexus, has a reputation for superb customer service and I could get a latte in the service department while I wait. See where I'm getting at ? Probably not ! :surprise:
That's the way corporations work, they want to make the most money possible, and starting a new luxury division will do that, obviously. Calling it a Hyundai would lose a lot of money, sales, and market share, nobody can deny that.
I think your proposal would be a disaster, thus I'm denying it. I think as Hyundai, management said they want to make the Genesis, as the millionaire next door will buy. They don't want to charge you a obscene price for a emblem. If Hyundai, sticks to this philosophy, they could easily be one of the automotive giants by 2015. I mean be in the top 3 is sales volume.
Rocky
Rocky
So with a luxury Genesis division, 30,000 of these cars are sold.
Calling it a Hyundai, 10,000 are sold.
The Genesis is much better than anything Acura or Infiniti sells and is the equal of Lexus' 380 hp flagship LS460 in length and engine size and plans to be roomier and sportier. Hyundai plans on eventually starting a luxury brand, well if they don't start one with this $40,000 car, what the heck are they going to start it with?? A $50,000 car with 500 hp???
Where is this Genesis that you claim is better than Acura and Lexus.
I believe that this is still a concept car and that the first production model has yet to be produced and tested.
As a first time Hyundai ( Azera) owner, I am pleased with the car, but feel that the corporate support has a long way to go.
They should address some of these issues prior to introducing too many new models.
Regards,
You a bad, BAD man!...