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Hyundai Genesis Sedan 2009+

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Comments

  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    Again history shows us the right path. Hyundai can't spin off the Genesis into a luxury brand AFTER it becomes a hot seller. Lexus introduced a brand new car LS400 that revolutionized the auto industry. The LS400 wasn't a second generation Toyota and Lexus wouldn't have succeeded if it was. Nobody cared about the ES250 which was a rebadged Camry and gone in 2 years. The Genesis is the second coming of the LS400, a RWD/AWD V8 top of the line luxury sedan for $20,000 less, history tells us it can't fail if it is the beginning of a new luxury brand.

    And history tells us a Hyundai Genesis will fail like the W8 Passat and Phaeton, nobody even knew those cars existed, and yet another Hyundai would get lost in the shuffle and completely ignored by luxury buyers.

    Creating a whole new luxury car company generates an incredible amount of buzz and excitement, and would more than triple sales. Genesis V8 rivals Lexus' flagship LS460 and blows away anything by Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo, their customers will flock to Genesis for a better car at a fraction of the price, along with intelligent BMW/MB buyers and Toyota/GM/Ford owners moving up.

    Since Hyundai is eventually going to spend money to start a luxury brand, what's the point in delaying it other than losing a ton of sales, profit, and market share for the Genesis? Hyundai would have to top its Genesis to start a luxury brand later and that would be damn near impossible, they can't sell a 400-500 hp car for $50,000.

    Hyundai has some of the worst dealerships around, that's why they're being dropped left and right. Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money and the salespeople have no clue how to sell luxury cars. They should just convert or build new Genesis dealerships and hire experienced luxury salespeople or train the best ones to sell the new Genesis M sedan and X SUV (rebadged Veracruz). Like I said, they should eventually combine Kia and Hyundai into just Kia Motors along with the Genesis luxury division.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Hyundai is selling this concept as if it were a new Merceds or Lexus model, but it will be a Hyundai.

    Hyundai, and VW for that matter, are two peas in a pod. They've built there reps on selling basic cars to average people. ;)

    They can't just start selling $30-40k cars because they feel like it, and expect it to fly. They aren't Toyota. :confuse:

    Avalon is nothing like the Genesis. Avalon is a full-sized Toyota family sedan, with upscale features. It is not marketed as a budget Lexus, or a discount something. It is a luxurious full-sized car. that's all.

    Hyundai is not Toyota. They are not comparable at this point. Maybe 10-15 years from now. Maybe. Probably not.

    The V8 Genesis will base price somewhere in the $33-35 range, and commonly MSRP south of $40k. So it maybe $5k less than the Passat was.

    How much will you spend on a Hyundai? That's the only question that matters.

    Hyundai sold less than 27k Azera last year.

    $25k is gonna be the limit for many, many people. ;)

    Drop the Azera, and it will definitely help the Genesis! I don't see how these two could work together.

    DrFill
  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    Genesis and Azera work together if they're in separate divisions, Genesis should be the first car in a new luxury brand. Azera is the real Avalon competitor, a full size FWD car at a cheaper price. And since Avalon is Toyota's most expensive model, Azera should be Hyundai/Kia's most expensive model. To be #1, you have to beat #1, and offering Toyota/Lexus like products at a much cheaper price is an unbeatable way to do it, and a Hyundai is not a Lexus like product and never will be.

    Honestly, I can't even believe we're having this discussion. A car that's roomier than an LS460 with the same engine size, and better than anything Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo, has EVER made, is going to be sold as a HYUNDAI?!? This really is like selling caviar at McDonalds. And people actually think this is a good idea?? Are these the same people who thought the name Hyundai and a smushed Honda logo were good ideas? They should let me run their company, Kia/Genesis would be #1 within a decade.
  • diemusikdiemusik Posts: 12
    Kia is actually the oldest car company in Korea, and the name sounds cool like Korea without the "or". Kia means "rising from Asia" and it goes well with a luxury brand named Genesis.

    The only problem with the name is that in military term, it's an acronym for "Killed In Action". I don't think that's such a great name for an automobile company. :blush:
  • diemusikdiemusik Posts: 12
    I think the biggest issue of starting a new division is the cost and time. I'm not opposed to it, but the cost to start a new dealership network I would think would outweigh the gains.

    That's exactly what I think too. Those of you who think creating a luxury brand will increase sales of the Genesis seem to forget how expensive it is to launch a new brand. This will inevitably increase the price. We are all enthusiastic about this car not only it's a great car, which it is, but also at a great price.

    According to Korean media, Hyundai doesn't have an immediate plan to create a luxury brand; they wanted to do so within a few years but dropped that plan due to labor unrest at their Korean plant (we call the labor union communists) and other business considerations. I wish I could find the news so that I can post the link although it will be in Korean :( .

    Hyundai was interested in purchasing Jaguar from Ford a few years ago. Would that be a better idea than creating a new brand? Would that be the silver bullet for Hyundai? What do you all think? Certainly, people will find Jaguar more appealing than a neo-luxury brand.
  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    Today it was reported that Hyundai is planning a new luxury brand, maybe they've been reading this forum. They should get everything set before they launch the Genesis sedan in a year and a half, or push back the launch until the luxury division is ready. I hope they name it Genesis, then get rid of some models that compete with each other and eventually merge Hyundai and Kia under Kia Motors.

    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/208139/hyundai_plans_luxury_of- - fshoot.html

    "Hyundai plans luxury offshoot
    Ambitious Hyundai is looking up
    13th April 2007

    Chiefs want upmarket brand, similar to Toyota’s Lexus

    It's no secret that the Korean company is aiming to shift upmarket with a raft of new models. But top brass at the firm are now considering the launch of a new luxury offshoot, just as Toyota has done with its Lexus-badged cars.

    Its sister marque Kia is already well established as a value brand, and Hyundai has launched a determined bid to raise the standard of customer service across its network with a series of specialist training workshops for its dealership staff. However, an all-new premium offshoot would be an obvious route to creating an even more prestigious image. It could be used to sell vehicles such as the roadgoing version of the sleek Genesis Concept we revealed in Issue 955."
  • 54gradsteds54gradsteds Posts: 102
    I have owned an '85 Cressida, and a '95 Avalon. I sold the former at 155,000 miles for $4200, and the buyer had it 4 years. I still have the '95 Avalon, and it has 178,000 miles on the clock. I had a rebuilt steering rack installed and had an engine oil leak fixed. Only my remote entry system has failed, but, as a pre-war baby, I still remember how to use a key to open a door, so I couldn't be persuaded to spend a ton of money for a little thing like that. I had every intention of replacing the Avalon with another one, but after I had walked into a Hyundai showroom just on a whim, examined the Azera, and had taken it for a test ride, I was just blown away with the build quality, features, roominess, power, etc...and equally importantly, the PRICE ! . I figure I walked away with a quality purchase equal to or surpassing an Avalon for at least $5,000 less. And, in case you folks haven't looked at the Avalon forum, they are STILL having problems with a quirky transmission, which apparently Toyota won't admit even exists.

    I've read PAGES of this discussion about Genesis and Hyundai in general, and I am appalled at how many contributors are so damned hung-up over a NAME !!! Suppose the Azera had appeared on the market with absolutely NO advertsing, NO badges of any kind, and NO way in the world of identifying it as a product of Hyundai Motors.... The only thing to do was to examine it for features, build quality, etc.... What would the folks who are so damned hung-up on a name say then? These are, I believe, the same people who cheerfully want to see an item of clothing with a "designer" label on it on their backs, say a $60.00 Tommy Hilfiger shirt, made in Bangladesh by some poor woman who earns 25 cents an hour in a sweatshop, and won't buy one from L.L. Bean for less than half the price, even though the Bean garment is every bit as good or better. I had a chance to buy another Toyota, but I'll be damned if I'll spend that kind of dough on something which doesn't give me the quality that I found in my new Azera!
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    nyckc911 wrote: "Hyundai has some of the worst dealerships around, that's why they're being dropped left and right. Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money and the salespeople have no clue how to sell luxury cars. They should just convert or build new Genesis dealerships and hire experienced luxury salespeople or train the best ones to sell the new Genesis M sedan and X SUV (rebadged Veracruz). Like I said, they should eventually combine Kia and Hyundai into just Kia Motors along with the Genesis luxury division."

    Now your sounding like Don Imus! Something must be catching in the NY area.

    Saying "Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money . . ." may have been true at one time, but not now. For example, one of my colleague's husband is a Toyota Service Manager at a large dealership in Palm Beach, FL (not really an economically-strapped community), and guess what kind of vehicle she drives: a new Kia Sedona - on his recommendation no less. My neighbor who is a retired cardiologist drives a Hyundai Sonata Limited, and I could go on. I know quite a few people with incomes north of $100K that drive Hyundais.

    And why would Hyundai want to be sold under Kia Motors, since Hyundai bailed Kia out of bankruptcy some years ago, and owns Kia - Hyundai is the parent company, not vice versa.
  • docrwdocrw Posts: 94
    No, Hyundai is selling this car for people who want luxury features but can't afford luxury cars yet. What was Toyota in the late 80's when Lexus was launched? A lot of people scoffed that the maker of the Corolla was trying its hand at luxury. But they earned their stripes the hard and smart way, they offered more for less with a very high level of dealership attention. Still, the people who bought Mercedes did not jump ship to Lexus for several more years, rather it was those who aspired to buy Mercedes but could not afford them who jumped on the Lexus bandwagon. Lets not rewrite history here. Toyota was not the big dog in the late 80's like they are today. In fact, Hyundai may be in better financial position now then Toyota was then. Toyota was able to launch Lexus not because their revenues could support it but because they new they would have the support from the Japanese financial institutions if things failed.

    I'm not suggesting that Hyundai can jump in and play with the big boys now, but if they do it right (the Lexus way) and aim for those who are buying ES's and give them something close to an LS for a little more or the same as that ES they could do well. Then as their reputation grows so can their prices. It might take a decade or more to get to the same level as Lexus but if you don't start you'll never get there.

    I think you should take a step back and look at the big picture. Things never stay the same and perceptions change. Five years ago, the people who are buying Hyundai's now would only buy Toyota's or Honda's. Hyundai could not sell a car for more than 15K. Now they can sell cars for >30K, the volumes may not be what Toyota's are but they are growing. Just remember the race does not always go to the swiftest.

    A luxury Hyundai division is not the folly you think it may be. I believe that if you think with your head and not your loyalties you would see that.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    Toyota was not the big dog in the late 80's like they are today.

    Toyota didn't have a luxury presence, but was already big back then. My guess is Accord and Camry, along with Taurus, were already the top dogs in family sedan, and Civic and Corolla among the top in economy class. Where are Sonata and Elentra today? They're nowhere near what Accord et al were back in the 80's, despite years and generations of trying.

    Ford came out with Taurus specifically to fight Camry and Accord. Ditto Escort in fighting Civic and Corolla! Has any car ever had the mission of fighting Sonata and Elantra?

    Which Hyundai is among the leader of its class? Not one, Hyundai hasn't proved it can produce a hit of any kind. And now it wants a V8 luxury sedan. I read Hyundai had wanted a luxury brand for many years now, and its own dealers told HQ in Korea to cool it! So its dealers had doubts.

    In many respects, Hyundai resembles Detroit 3 more than Nippon 3. In residual value, Sonata is nowhere near Accord/Camry/Altima territory. And Hyundai sells a much larger % to rentals than Nippon.

    When MB drops Chrysler, there might not be another 300, which borrows some tech from previous E. Any potential buyer should insist MB assist in the development of next 300, which is the lifeblood of Chrysler. That might be a price MB must pay for riddance.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Apparently, my recent posts were not read by all (shame on you!). :sick:

    My issue is selling this Genesis as a HYUNDAI. HYUNDAI is the problem, not the car. The car may be the next Lexus LS. But if you sell it as a HYUNDAI, you got no chance. As in zero.

    And selling ther Azera and another vehicle on top of it, one of the cars will suffer greatly. It appears Hyundai sees that handwriting on the wall.

    I don't have a problem with Hyundai starting a luxury channel. It probably is the right time, and a smart move.

    Acura REFUSES to learn from their mistakes. And Infiniti has always struggled to develop a proper flagship, as has Acura. And Cadillac, for that matter.

    If Hyundai wants to copy the Lexus formula, go 'head! They'll need another vehicle to complement the Genseis (not the Azera), but, at this point, I'm tired of Acura. They may need a little help with a Going out of Business sale. Acura has no direction, no focus.

    Comparing Hyundai (today) to Toyota (1989) is fair, except for the fact that Toyota had built a solid reputation for the previous decade of building quality cars. They were established as a leader in the industry. :)

    Hyundai has had what....2-3 good years? They're not there....yet.

    DrFill
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    Many of you, unlike Toyota and many others, are severely underestimating a company that has increased its sales 320% in the last few years and was the only company to have survived the Korean economic downfall. Oh thats right, they not only survived it but they bought up Kia (51%). They have also soared in quality ratings, although controversial. Hyundai's plants are the worlds most advanced and they have very, very deep pockets. If this works, it works, If it doesn't, it doesn't. Some of you just can't accept the world is changing and the likes of Korean companies like Samsung, LG, Hyundai and Kia are poised or already have entered the upper echelon of powerful companies. I am amused at how entrenched and how opposed to progress many of you are. What world are you living in? Do some of you even get the idea of change and progress? Do some of you even understand that when a company has a vision and launches out like this, its a good thing. Keep one thing in mind: The Genesis and the emergence of a sister marque to Hyundai is nothing but good news to me, Joe Carbuyer. It forces the marginal companies to either shape up or get out and it forces the dominant players to become even more competitive and reconsider they quality, inflated prices and decontenting policies.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Which Hyundai is among the leader of its class? Not one, Hyundai hasn't proved it can produce a hit of any kind. And now it wants a V8 luxury sedan.

    I see hyundai as a solid hitter, you know the one who hit's doubles and is a good base runner, as well as a good defensive player. Yeah he doesn't smack the home runs or get all the girls at the China Club after the game, but he's a solid player and gets things done.

    -mike
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    that Hyundai is a smart player and driven to succeed and you'll start to understand why Hyundai will be successful supplying the luxury car buyer, calling it the Genesis or the Hyundai Genesis.

    Yeah, I realized how archaeic and slow the American car buying public was to realizing new car making talent when I purchased my Kia Sephia in May of '99. It was mostly online commenters that were out-of-touch with reality, thinking that buying a Kia was akin to getting incurable TB. The Sephia product was good and the Sportage product was even better and Hyundai is more popular than Kia. So why is it unthinkable that Hyundai moves upscale in product content? And even if it is unsuccessful Hyundai will not vanish from the scene nor will Kia Motors. Think of them as automotive powerhouses if you're not already and you'll have a cup of sanity back.

    Been down this block several times or two by now and buying for brand recognition is not only dumb it's way too lemming-like for me. How about actually comparing the automobiles attributes here and not the brand name?

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • jjordan2jjordan2 Posts: 5
    doesn't create a luxury brand. Not right now at least. I have a feeling Hyundai KNOWS their brand image isn't that great right now.. so investing all that money and time and energy into a "luxury" brand that everyone will see right through will be pointless. I think the way Hyundai is approaching it is perfect. Slowly rebuild your image, prove to everyone that you can make great cars at a great price with great warranties.. and go after the "i want something luxury but don't want to spend the money on image cuz i don't really care about image" crowd is just fine.

    I think Hyundai's aim is squarely at the Chrysler 300 crowd.. or maybe even the Acura TL.
  • sergio19sergio19 Posts: 90
    54gradsteds,

    Man, I couldn't have said it better myself. I totally agree with you!
    My freinds drive the following cars:
    BMW 5 series
    BMW 3 Series
    G35 Coupe Sport package
    Acura MDX
    Nissan 350Z
    Camry SE

    I myself drive the Azera and I TOTALLY love it!
    It's all about "IMAGE". I was and now am appalled at myself for having been that way.
    Not anymore and am a Dam proud owner of Hyundai.
    Next on my list is the GENESIS and it'll be the fastest sell Hyundai will see!

    Regards,
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Calling it a Hyundai, 10,000 are sold

    I'm sorry nycdc911, you unfortunately under estimating this cars impact. I think it will sell easily 50,000-100,000 units if it's a good as it is on paper.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Plus, you can feel a little better knowing that car was produced at a state of the art facility with more skilled workers.

    That isn't true at all......The workers making a Toyota or a Lexus pretty much have the same skills. The Lexus like Cadillac to take care of Paisans post also get the better parts because the tolerances are slightly tighter.

    Cadillac, Buick, back in the day Oldsmobile, GMC, Saab, get better parts which are a fraction
    (millionth of a millimeter) tighter than Pontiac, Chevy, Saturn, Hummer. ;) The same workers make the parts. My father made parts for Cadillac and Chevy and the rest of the GM brands like Opel and Holden. If the part didn't pass the BOC spec it went into Pontaic/Chevy bin. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I would however pay $35k for a RWD V8 300hp+ Full Size Luxury car from Hyundai, without the Latte and white-glove service. I see it as that hometown bar and grill that has a great steak. Where you can wear jeans and a Polo shirt. I much rather chow down on that steak than going to Smith and Wolenski's or Peter Lugers, where it will cost me a lot more for the same steak, but they put my napkin on my lap for me etc.

    Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think this is a niche market that isn't as crowded as the Luxo area but could be the next hot market.

    -mike


    I 100% agree. VW, doesn't make blue-collar luxury cars and the Passat, was a nice car but it wasn't ever a luxury car the way Hyundai, has made the Genesis. VW, also was ranked among the worst for reliability, and service which didn't help things and they never made a performance car outside of the Phaeton which was way over priced even though they were nice. VW, charged a lot of dough and you didn't get much for it. The Passatt for god sakes had manual seats !!!! :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I could afford any of the above cars, but it made no sense to purchase any of them. Hyundai won me over. I don't see why other would not eventually follow.

    You sound like a smart guy and like paisan, I, snakeweasel, etc we don't give a rip about badges. We want the best car for the best price. Hyundai, is going to offer us that option in 2008' as a 2009 MY. ;) louiswei, for some reason is convinced a car needs a emblem to be successful as a luxury car. I could care less if I'm not invited to the cocktail party's because of what car I drive. I don't associate myself with snotty people as I'm sure the others who like this car don't either. "Stuffy" people are mainly those who inherited money and the working millionaires I know (family members) don't throw away hard earned money on badges or named brand clothing that is marked-up to give them a self confidence boost. My cousin use to rip the name tags off of his jeans because he didn't need another guys name on his [non-permissible content removed] to make him feel like he belongs. His message as I got older stuck in my memory and I think like him a alot when it comes to material items. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    iluv, you and I found some common ground on one of those rare occassions once again. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    4) My guess is Genesis will end up competing, in price and segment, against 300C, G8 and Avalon, rather than 5 series, C class and Infiniti M.

    That is your opinion but I find it absurd as it out class's all of them by a country miles. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    paisan,

    Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you !!!! :blush:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Some people are just gullible and will lay down a lot of money for a name that they believe is raising their social status.

    I can't believe how right you are. Why do so many americans at it seem like it is a top priority in this country to buy name brand things just to show the "Jones" look at what I got and what you don't have. :mad: That is so immature and I ask where are peoples morales. No wonder why neighbors don't get along any more. People are so mean to each other.

    Bragging about social status is a sin in my book of morales. Most people who have to brag about what they own are so far in debt that if they missed a day of overtime they would be belly up to their creditors. I also notive in my 28 years on this earth a lot of luxury car owners and people that wear name brands don't really have
    a "pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of" ;)

    The Genesis, doesn't need a badge to make it a great luxury car.

    Rocky
  • fenris2fenris2 Posts: 31
    Hmm.. Ballpark, it probably costs about 3-4 mil to build a nice dealership from square one - if they do the seperate brand. That will affect car price somehow.

    While I would have no issue buying a Genesis (if I were not looking diesel next year) I think a lot of luxury marque buyers might not do so.

    They will have to crunch the numbers and see. One other possibilty is that they are trying to raise the Hyundai image with launching the luxury marque as well. I bet they will watch the veracruz numbers like hawks, and that should be a good inidcation of just how high price a Hyundai can go...

    Anyway, History of Phaeton and Mazda Millenia (remember that one?) both point to failure for a luxury marque launched from a 'volume' brand... so I have my doubts. Even if it cost more up front, I think they would be best sereved by a separate brand
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    So you would never buy a Hyundai unless they called it something else? I have news for you no matter what they called it it still would be a Hyundai just like Lexus is still a Toyota. Are you really that shallow?

    It's pretty amazing isn't it. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I've owned 2 Cadillac's and one Acura, and because I want a Cadillac STS V8 like car for my next car because of room and safety for my family and of course the power, performance, gadgetology, warranty, reliability. Cadillac's problem is they have priced the STS around $10-15K higher than my 2002 Seville STS. While this generation sTS improved it wasn't dramatic enough to charge that much more. The STS, also has been manufactored cheaper because the UAW workers now assemble the STS in teams and no longer do just 1-3 jobs. So I think GM, should of held it's end of the "total value pricing" and kept prices in check while giving the consumer more. So now Cadillac, has to put major cash on the hood in the spring to move these cars which ultimately kills resale value and credibility. I suppose I could wait for these deals but even with those deals the Genesis, will still be $15K+ cheaper unless Cadillac, wants to move the 07's. The 2008 STS gets a fresher design and a improvement on the interior. You now can get BLISS and Lane Departure warning system but the question is how much more ?

    I as most of you know am a huge GM, fan but the cars I like from GM, are getting pretty damn pricey and the cars I was expecting to buy might not be made because of Lutz and the CAFE issue. If Hyundai, can convince this GM, loyalist to give them a look I think it's possible that others will do the same thing. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    As I explained your compairing apples to oranges. Hyundai, has a lot more cedibility right now than VW. The only successful car in the U.S. VW, has ever had was the Beetle which was a chick car so to the hippee baby boomers reliving the 60's with peace signs all over the bumpers. ;) Oh wait the Jetta, was decent but has lost it's clout just like the Beetle.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I think we are all generally on the same page here despite some people feeling strong on one side or the other.

    -agree

    I can go either way but from a business POV they should see if it takes off before jumping in with 2 feet.

    -agree

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    nycdc911,

    I hope now you are happy ?

    Hey can we become friends now :P If this holds true I will be happy as we can stop all the debating. We can shake hands and drink a beer now. :blush:

    Rocky

    P.S. good find ;)
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