I honestly believe with this one DrFill, they hit the nail on the head. Why ? Well let's just say I'm pretty picky when it comes to Luxury cars like many folks. I've owned a couple of Cadillac's and one Acura. I've driven friends and family member's luxury cars from BMW's to my Aunt's Lexus. I've seen spy pics of the Genesis, interior and if what I saw makes it to production I think 60,000+ unit's isn't out of reach with how much value the customer is getting.
The current Popular Mechanics just came today and has nice things to say about their Azera as they retire it from their longterm fleet of test vehicles. One of the people there bought it!
Hyundai won't sell a single more Genesis than they did with the Azera. As matter of fact, they'll be lucky if the Genesis' sale number is anywhere close to Azera's.
By the way, how many Veracruz does Hyundai sell versus the Santa Fe? I think the Veracruz-Santa Fe ratio is a good indication for how many Genesis Hyundai will be able to sell.
Well maybe that person baught a pre-production model as I'm sure they have several by now. My FIL's girlfriends friend baught a Shelby Mustang GT 500, before they came out (a pre-production model) that is the priveledges some get when your rich and/or famous.
It's not that I have zero confidence in Genesis. It's just that I am an engineer and I was trained to analyze things scientifically and logically (I use my head instead of my you-know-what). Both history and current Hyundai Sales numbers indicate that the Genesis is not going to "catch on fire" as some says it would. Like I said, the Veracruz-Santa Fe sales ratio along with the Azera sales number will be a good indicator about how many Genesis Hyundai will sell.
Predicted Genesis sales = current Azera sales x ( current Veracruz sales / current Santa Fe sales )
So your thinking mathematically. Well Mr. Engineer, no doubt your smart but their are other variables that could play into the sales numbers being higher. Hyundai, has a winner but the most important issue for them is going to be getting that message out to the public. If I was CEO of Hyundai, the first thing I would do is buy-off consumer media out lets like Consumer Reports, like the japanese have done for almost two-decades. That would mean at least 1.3 million people would be owners of the Genesis, in a few short years. :P
This is getting really tiresome. Please show any proof that Consumer Reports received any monetary assistance from the Japanese manufactures as you have stated it. If you can't then you are just another guy out there trying to start or pass along the internet rumors (we already have too many of those lame a**es low lives and don't need another one).
I am pretty sure you are not one of them so let's see the evidence(s).
Of course there are other variables. Like maybe BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti and Cadillac disappear from Earth over night so the Genesis becomes the only option out there for midsize luxury performance car buyers. However, with what the history and current sales trend are showing, I am more confident to go with the mathematical/logical route.
Something is just not right with CR as it has made a lot of boo boos over the years. They have been known to give the exact same thing two different ratings, the only difference being the name slapped in the product. They have been known to give high marks to things that just didn't deserve it. They have did comparisons where they never even mentioned the so called industry standard (the product(s) that everyone else says is the best).
Something is not right there. I wish I could tell you more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It really doesn't matter if Genesis is FWD or RWD, the issue here is are the messes willing to pay over $30K (in this case, well over) for a Hyundai. No doubt in my mind that when the Genesis hits the showroom it might be the best value in the auto industry. However, it could come up short just because it carries the Hyundai badge. Why? Perception. Shallow? Yes but it's true and we all know it.
Thus I strongly recommend Hyundai to create a luxury brand to go with the Genesis, Veracruz and the future RWD coupe.
As for the CR issue, I would still like to see evidence(s).
It really doesn't matter if Genesis is FWD or RWD,
It really does matter as those who seek a true driving experience will pass a V-6 FWD car for a V-8 FWD. I think there are enough people out there that want that V-8 Luxury Sedan but don't want to spend the $50K plus for one.
However, it could come up short just because it carries the Hyundai badge. Why? Perception. Shallow? Yes but it's true and we all know it.
But the perception of Hyundai is quickly changing.
Thus I strongly recommend Hyundai to create a luxury brand to go with the Genesis, Veracruz and the future RWD coupe.
Herein lies the issue, you will still have the name issue no matter what they do. A luxury named Hyundai will still be a Huyndai just more expensive. Just like a Lexus is just a Toyota and an Acura is just a Honda.
As for the CR issue, I would still like to see evidence(s).
The evidence is in their own printed material. I stopped caring what Consumers Ripoffs says some 20 years ago when they compared car stereos and pronounced Panasonic (Panisonic, yes I said Panasonic) as the best car stereo. nowhere were Blaupunkt and Alpine (what everyone knew were the best) even mentioned.
If CR told me the sky was blue I would check.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But the perception of Hyundai is quickly changing.
That just meant that people are thinking Hyundai isn't as bad as before but the overall perception of Hyundai is still below Toyota, Honda and GM. Even if Hyundai is on par with the big boys that still doesn't mean it is ready to challenge the semi-luxury or luxury brands in their own back yards.
just like a Lexus is just a Toyota and an Acura is just a Honda.
Maybe to you a Lexus is just a Toyota but to many others that's not the case. One thing to keep in mind here, folks here are very knowledgeable about the current auto industry but majority of the people are not. Why do you think Toyota and Honda decided to create their own luxury brand instead of just slap their own badges on the very first LS400 and Legend and call it a day? Again, it's because of perceptions. Toyota and Honda back then (and even now) weren't known for making luxury sedans and so isn't Hyundai today.
Can you imaging Lexus sells its LS, GS with Toyota badge and Acura sells its RL with Honda badge? I can't, at least not here in the States. Again, people don't see Toyota and Honda as luxury brands thus their luxury products won't sell. Same goes with Hyundai.
By the way, does anyone know what's the annual sales number of the Chrysler 300?
A bad month is 7-8k. It used to be 12-13k a month, at it's peak! :surprise:
Another problem with selling the Genesis as a Hyundai is this car seems custom-made for a luxury marque. If you start the precedent that this type of car will be a Hyundai, you can't later move it to a different company.
Toyota decided in 1983 that the LS would start a new company. Or more accurately, the new company will start with the Lexus LS.
I think Hyundai wants to microwave a new perception and image, and they just have to wait. You can't force it.
They obviously don't have the patience of Toyota.
I don't see the difference between them and VW. :confuse:
And we all know how well VW is doing right now in the States and what a huge mistake they made with the Phaeton. Hopefully Phaeton the sequel will fare better than the original. I honestly don't think it is fair to compare VW and Phaeton to Hyundai and Genesis but one couldn't deny that there are similarities between these 2 cases. Hyundai can definitely learn a thing or two from VW's mistake and make sure that doesn't happen with the Genesis.
WOW, you guys are harsh or should I say brutual. I think you both are wrong on all accounts even though I respect both of y'alls opinions and DrFill, did a great job using history as a reference.
I however have a scenario for some of you and it's the way I see it. Back in the 80's and 90's folks that were middle class that had good jobs could reasonably afford a luxury car. Now that a lot of good paying jobs have left and those folks either are making half as much or had to retrain in another field but don't make the good money like they di or have the benefits they once had but use to own nice [non-permissible content removed] will look at Hyuandai, as a oppertunity to own something as nice as they once have once again but will be able to afford it. This type of value has and still makes Acura famous to this day. Sure Acura's prices have creaped up their over the years but compared to other luxury marques they are the value of luxury cars. When Acura, got popular in the U.S. they weren't stellar cars. They over the years built the brand up and remade it. It's like some of you folks are throwing in the towel for Hyundai. I think and believe hyundai, can earn a lot of sales with the approach they are taking and re make the brand.
Y'all are very frusterating. Almost frusterating enough I might go out and buy a Genesis, just to add a sale to their list and then zoom by ya both blowing your doors off !!!! :P
I prefer to refer to Consumer Reports as Clodsumer Retorts. If ever there were a biased, dumb magazine this would be the one. I've seen them post pictures of an older version of a new model they're reporting on!
And they expect us to believe their drivel? No-sir-ree-bob, not this old rocker.
VW's biggest mistakes are that customer's thought they were doing buisness with ex-cons because of the way they got treated. VW's customer's also might as well booked a room at the service shop as their cars are very unreliable. Those are the two knocks against VW, both service at the sale and after the sale, and the unreliability factor. It also didn't help VW, out making rebadged Audi's even though I'd love to own a Phaeton. They had some special surround sound system, massaging seats, and lot's of other gadgets.
The fact Hyundai USA already makes quality and reliable cars, the remaining to-do is further improving its brand image, which we all know takes more than overnight to overcome. Keep selling economy cars won't improve its image any faster than going upmarket, possibly even reversing its fortune. Setting up a luxury brand will take time, including dealer networks, this will happen but in the mean time, is Hyundai going to sit around and do nothing? Also, Hyundai is not the only mainstream nameplate with $30K vehicles.
That just meant that people are thinking Hyundai isn't as bad as before but the overall perception of Hyundai is still below Toyota, Honda and GM.
I wouldn't be to fast on that judgment. I know a few people that are seriously thinking of replacing their Honda or Toyota with a Hyundai when it becomes time to swap vehicles. To be totally honest my Elantra has been the most reliable car I have ever had and I hope to keep it a lot longer.
Maybe to you a Lexus is just a Toyota but to many others that's not the case.
And many others it is. I know more than one MB owner who would never touch a Lexus simply because in his words its an over prices Toyota.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well first of all the base Phaeton came in at $20K or more than a fully equipped Genesis is supposed to come in at. That is a lot of clams. Also consider that VW has had a big downturn in the reliability of their cars, much the opposite of Hyundai which is Building some might good cars of late. There is a big difference between the two.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know a few people that are seriously thinking of replacing their Honda or Toyota with a Hyundai when it becomes time to swap vehicles
Well, good for Hyundai.
The question here to ask is...
How many people are "seriously" thinking of replacing their BMW 5-series, MB E-class, Lexus GS and Infiniti M with a Hyundai? Isn't that the market where the Genesis is aiming after? As matter of fact, I'll do Hyundai one better...
How many folks are "seriously" thinking of upgrading their current BMW 3-series, MB C-class, Lexus IS, Infiniti G and Acura TL with a Hyundai?
These are some serious questions Hyundai need to find out if they want their first $30K plus RWD luxury performance sedan to succeed.
Let's look at the VW/Phaeton vs. Hyundai/Genesis comparison from a broader perspective point of view. In other words, let's look at it from the strategy level instead of tactical level that y'all have been focusing on...
The similarity between those two is that both of them are attempting to go outside their traditional market thus the comfort zone is no longer there. Both of these are attempts trying to challenge the big boys in their own back yard. They are trying to convert buyers from another market instead of simply join that market.
I do believe there was someone here stating they passed up something for their Azera. On the whole I would take the Azera over a 3 series any day.
Saturday we were having a party and cars came up and we started talking about the Genesis. The person I was talking to didn't know about the car so we went to Hyundais website for the Genesis. This guy, an E-Class owner, was very much interested in it just by its looks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This guy, an E-Class owner, was very much interested in it just by its looks.
Geez, I am very interested in Genesis just by the way it looks too. Why you think I am here in the first place? However, at the end of the day, if one can afford an E-class and money really isn't much of an issue do you think your friend is going to pick the Genesis over the E-class?
Showing interest doesn't mean that one is going to buy that car. Ask rocky if he's going to pick the Genesis over the 08' CTS and I think you know the answer better than I do.
Look at this way, MOST hard-core domestic lovers wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai and MOST German/Japanese luxury car owners are spoiled by their rides so Hyundai won't even show up on their radar screen. Who's left to buy a $30K luxury performance sedan from Hyundai?
Thats a very bad comparison. VW tried to put out a high end car at high end prices. The base price of the Phaeton was $65K which is 70% more expensive than VW's next expensive vehicle (the Touareg). It was a hand built car to go up against cars such as the S class. Your assessment that WV went out of their traditional market is true.
Hyundai on the other hand is producing a car that is slightly more than the next highest car. Hyundai is not going outside their traditional market. They are pushing the envelope of their current market. Thats the way to grow a company.
If Hyundai was putting out a $60K hand built car I would agree with you. But since they aren't your comparison doesn't work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
VW was selling cars/SUVs in the low-$40K range (remember the W12 Passat? Another example of the going-outside-your-traditional-market disaster) and trying to compete with luxury flagships. Hyundai is selling cars/SUVs (except Veracruz) in the mid-$20K range and trying to compete with luxury midsizers. Both of them are trying to undercut their competitors with products carry lower-market manufactures' badges.
VW was selling cars/SUVs in the low-$40K range (remember the W12 Passat?
I am talking base prices only. The Phaeton started at $65K. Ok lets look at the W12 Phaeton started at $80K.
Hyundai is selling cars/SUVs (except Veracruz) in the mid-$20K range and trying to compete with luxury midsizers.
yes and the Genesis is going to start in the upper $20's. Going from mid $20's to upper $20's is nothing like jumping from around $40K to over $65K.
The Phaeton was a jump of over 70% from the next most expensive car WV had (based on base price). For your comparison to make sense the Genesis would have to start at the upper 40's but its not it will be almost 10 grand less.
Both of them are trying to undercut their competitors with products carry lower-market manufactures' badges
The Phaeton in no way shape and form was priced to undercut the competition (starting at $65K and going up exceeding $100K) thats in the S class range.
Thats why your comparison is bad.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I was referring to VWs two other mistakes, named Passat W8 and Touraeg. The third mistake was just the grandest mistake. :sick:
The best argument for Genesis becoming a notable success is the Chrysler 300, but consider the bulk of it's sales are south of $30k, in Base and Touring form.
The reasons 300 worked are many:
1. Styling. Original and uncompromised, it has a design still unmatched by the competition.
2. Hemi. They jumped on the Hemi wave at it's peak, and the Hemi brought in traffic.
3. Network. Over 3000 dealers will have an advantage over less than 1000 Hyundai (probably more like 5-600), and you get just that many more eyes on the product.
4. American. People WANT a Great American hope. It fits the bill nicely.
If Azera was pumpin' out 50-60k, I'd say they have a shot. But 25-30k sales just doesn't inspire confidence.
I say it's a poor idea, but it won't be the first. Or the worst.
Showing interest doesn't mean that one is going to buy that car. Ask rocky if he's going to pick the Genesis over the 08' CTS and I think you know the answer better than I do.
louiswei, never, say never. It's a matter of economics also. I lust for a V8 Cadillac STS, because it's bigger and when I have family come in or in-laws travel with me I need a bigger car so they don't feel like Sardines. I'd love to own a new STS, but why buy a 2 yr. old used one when I can get a new Genesis for the same money and it will have all the latest toys and more than a STS. Would I be caught dead in a Hyundai Genesis ?????? Let's just say maybe. They are union made and I found out a little more on the treatment of Hyundai, workers vs. other workers in South Korea. They aren't abused like other workers and make more money then other union workers under better working conditions than I was lead to believe.
Wanna know what else louiswei, Delphi the company my father retired from builds MULTEC 3 Fuel Injectors for Hyundai/Kia. Yeah they use to come out of Coopersville which closed late last year and was consolidated with the Rochester NY plant. So I might just be elegible for a Hyundai discount through dad. I am having my local dealer find out if I'm elgible for a discount through Delphi. If I am that sweetens the pot some more as a affordable choice as I don't need a luxury emblem like Cadillac to boost my status. I'm quite happy with who I am and if the CTS, was a Chevy, I'd be just as okay with it as I am it being a Caddy. It's not like I'm going to get any perks based on what I drive from the locals am I ?????
-Rocky
P.S. Weren't you the one who called the TL, (my pet) ? :P FYI- the 09' if it has SH-AWD could be on my list as well. Well that is the order's I got from the wife. :surprise:
If you are so pessimistic about Hyundai's future, then why don't you go run Hyundai.
Few thoughts as mentioned previously:
1) The luxury program will take time but until then, what do you think Hyundai should do, sit around?
2) We know Hyundai can build a quality/reliable car, but Hyundai building mainstream economy models WILL not improve its image any better than in the current case, going upmarket.
I want to hear what you and louiswei would do before I continue...
1) The luxury program will take time but until then, what do you think Hyundai should do, sit around?
How about getting ready for the debut of the luxury brand and continuing to improve the current products?
2) We know Hyundai can build a quality/reliable car, but Hyundai building mainstream economy models WILL not improve its image any better than in the current case, going upmarket.
Thus I think Hyundai is ready to launch its own luxury brand. Genesis will be a great car and do not deserve the Hyundai badge treatment.
It's just that I am an engineer and I was trained to analyze things scientifically and logically (I use my head instead of my you-know-what).
Predicted Genesis sales = current Azera sales x ( current Veracruz sales / current Santa Fe sales )
I’ve been lurking here for a while and enjoy the discussion but since I was also an engineer (when I was a working stiff) you’ve got to help me out.
You’re going to have to prove to me the validity of your equation before you will convince me that you are not thinking with the bracketed part of your statement above. I never saw anything like this before (looks like a seat of the pants equation derived from dart throwing with your eyes closed). Now, if you could plug in some numbers maybe I could put my sliderule (that’s what we used when I went to school) to work so that I can figure it out. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
>maybe I could put my sliderule (that’s what we used when I went to school) to work so that I can figure it out.
It's a waste of time because there's no correlation. The Veracruz is an SUV and the Santa Fe is an SUV. The Genesis is a sedan. So much for "scientifically and logically (I use my head instead of my you-know-what)." Heee, hee. Colleges these days.... :sick:
1. I see Santa Fe as an equal to Azera in Hyundai's SUV lineup.
2. Since Veracruz is a step up from Santa Fe and Genesis is a step up from Azera I see the Genesis is an equal to the Veracruz in Hyundai's sedan lineup. In case the point didn't come across clearly:
Hyundai Sedans: Sonata -> Azera -> Genesis Hyundai SUVs/CUVs: Tucson -> Santa Fe -> Veracruz
3. Since the Veracruz is starting at $26.5K and the Limited AWD version tops out at $38K (roughly the range where Genesis will fall into) I see its sales would be a good indicator of how well the messes will accept a $30K+ Hyundai.
Because of the 3 reasons above thus I came up the equations previous posted. I am not saying that the equation is accurate to a certain degree but if I'll have to make a prediction about how many Genesis Hyundai will sell that'll be the equation I rely on. I know it would not reflect the reality because there are many "noise variables" but it is better than pulling some number out of my you-know-what.
I would love to plug in some numbers but since the Veracruz has only been in market for very short period of time I am afraid it won't reflect the whole picture. Maybe in a month or 2 when the Veracruz sales becomes stable then we can come back and revisit the equation.
Comments
MANY people don't consider AT ALL!
It's a lot like Mazda. It is a niche maker, that is still growing, but nothing to get all huffy about.
How successful is the XG or Azera? Why should I be impressed with their track record?
They're cheaper than everybody, have more features, bigger warranty, and they still struggle? Doesn't a light come on for ya? :confuse:
$30k+ is a TON OF MONEY for the LUXURY of driving a HYUNDAI. That's the truth.
Hate to break it to you.
If they sell 30k annually, they did a great job.
DrFill
-Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
By the way, how many Veracruz does Hyundai sell versus the Santa Fe? I think the Veracruz-Santa Fe ratio is a good indication for how many Genesis Hyundai will be able to sell.
Is this post a joke? The Genesis is still a concept and at least one year away from production.
-Rocky
(a pre-production model) that is the priveledges some get when your rich and/or famous.
-Rocky
Predicted Genesis sales = current Azera sales x ( current Veracruz sales / current Santa Fe sales )
-Rocky
>ROTFLMAO, holy cow louiswei, you have zero confidence in this car don't ya
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am pretty sure you are not one of them so let's see the evidence(s).
Of course there are other variables. Like maybe BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti and Cadillac disappear from Earth over night so the Genesis becomes the only option out there for midsize luxury performance car buyers. However, with what the history and current sales trend are showing, I am more confident to go with the mathematical/logical route.
Again, I use my head instead of my you-know-what.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Something is not right there. I wish I could tell you more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thus I strongly recommend Hyundai to create a luxury brand to go with the Genesis, Veracruz and the future RWD coupe.
As for the CR issue, I would still like to see evidence(s).
It really does matter as those who seek a true driving experience will pass a V-6 FWD car for a V-8 FWD. I think there are enough people out there that want that V-8 Luxury Sedan but don't want to spend the $50K plus for one.
However, it could come up short just because it carries the Hyundai badge. Why? Perception. Shallow? Yes but it's true and we all know it.
But the perception of Hyundai is quickly changing.
Thus I strongly recommend Hyundai to create a luxury brand to go with the Genesis, Veracruz and the future RWD coupe.
Herein lies the issue, you will still have the name issue no matter what they do. A luxury named Hyundai will still be a Huyndai just more expensive. Just like a Lexus is just a Toyota and an Acura is just a Honda.
As for the CR issue, I would still like to see evidence(s).
The evidence is in their own printed material. I stopped caring what Consumers Ripoffs says some 20 years ago when they compared car stereos and pronounced Panasonic (Panisonic, yes I said Panasonic) as the best car stereo. nowhere were Blaupunkt and Alpine (what everyone knew were the best) even mentioned.
If CR told me the sky was blue I would check.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
-Rocky
That just meant that people are thinking Hyundai isn't as bad as before but the overall perception of Hyundai is still below Toyota, Honda and GM. Even if Hyundai is on par with the big boys that still doesn't mean it is ready to challenge the semi-luxury or luxury brands in their own back yards.
just like a Lexus is just a Toyota and an Acura is just a Honda.
Maybe to you a Lexus is just a Toyota but to many others that's not the case. One thing to keep in mind here, folks here are very knowledgeable about the current auto industry but majority of the people are not. Why do you think Toyota and Honda decided to create their own luxury brand instead of just slap their own badges on the very first LS400 and Legend and call it a day? Again, it's because of perceptions. Toyota and Honda back then (and even now) weren't known for making luxury sedans and so isn't Hyundai today.
Can you imaging Lexus sells its LS, GS with Toyota badge and Acura sells its RL with Honda badge? I can't, at least not here in the States. Again, people don't see Toyota and Honda as luxury brands thus their luxury products won't sell. Same goes with Hyundai.
By the way, does anyone know what's the annual sales number of the Chrysler 300?
A bad month is 7-8k. It used to be 12-13k a month, at it's peak! :surprise:
Another problem with selling the Genesis as a Hyundai is this car seems custom-made for a luxury marque. If you start the precedent that this type of car will be a Hyundai, you can't later move it to a different company.
Toyota decided in 1983 that the LS would start a new company. Or more accurately, the new company will start with the Lexus LS.
I think Hyundai wants to microwave a new perception and image, and they just have to wait. You can't force it.
They obviously don't have the patience of Toyota.
I don't see the difference between them and VW. :confuse:
DrFill
What's so hard? The Phaeton starts @ 60K+; the BH will start under 30K.
What are the chances the BH outsells the Phaeton in the US? 100% and then some...
Funny you brought up the 300 - as long as Hyundai shares the slightest success the 300 has enjoyed, small or big, this would be a huge step forward.
And we all know how well VW is doing right now in the States and what a huge mistake they made with the Phaeton. Hopefully Phaeton the sequel will fare better than the original. I honestly don't think it is fair to compare VW and Phaeton to Hyundai and Genesis but one couldn't deny that there are similarities between these 2 cases. Hyundai can definitely learn a thing or two from VW's mistake and make sure that doesn't happen with the Genesis.
I however have a scenario for some of you and it's the way I see it. Back in the 80's and 90's folks that were middle class that had good jobs could reasonably afford a luxury car. Now that a lot of good paying jobs have left and those folks either are making half as much or had to retrain in another field but don't make the good money like they di or have the benefits they once had but use to own nice [non-permissible content removed] will look at Hyuandai, as a oppertunity to own something as nice as they once have once again but will be able to afford it. This type of value has and still makes Acura famous to this day. Sure Acura's prices have creaped up their over the years but compared to other luxury marques they are the value of luxury cars. When Acura, got popular in the U.S. they weren't stellar cars. They over the years built the brand up and remade it. It's like some of you folks are throwing in the towel for Hyundai. I think and believe hyundai, can earn a lot of sales with the approach they are taking and re make the brand.
Y'all are very frusterating. Almost frusterating enough I might go out and buy a Genesis, just to add a sale to their list and then zoom by ya both blowing your doors off !!!! :P
-Rocky
And they expect us to believe their drivel? No-sir-ree-bob, not this old rocker.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
-Rocky
-Rocky
The fact Hyundai USA already makes quality and reliable cars, the remaining to-do is further improving its brand image, which we all know takes more than overnight to overcome. Keep selling economy cars won't improve its image any faster than going upmarket, possibly even reversing its fortune. Setting up a luxury brand will take time, including dealer networks, this will happen but in the mean time, is Hyundai going to sit around and do nothing? Also, Hyundai is not the only mainstream nameplate with $30K vehicles.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I wouldn't be to fast on that judgment. I know a few people that are seriously thinking of replacing their Honda or Toyota with a Hyundai when it becomes time to swap vehicles. To be totally honest my Elantra has been the most reliable car I have ever had and I hope to keep it a lot longer.
Maybe to you a Lexus is just a Toyota but to many others that's not the case.
And many others it is. I know more than one MB owner who would never touch a Lexus simply because in his words its an over prices Toyota.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes they do and so does Benz.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well, good for Hyundai.
The question here to ask is...
How many people are "seriously" thinking of replacing their BMW 5-series, MB E-class, Lexus GS and Infiniti M with a Hyundai? Isn't that the market where the Genesis is aiming after? As matter of fact, I'll do Hyundai one better...
How many folks are "seriously" thinking of upgrading their current BMW 3-series, MB C-class, Lexus IS, Infiniti G and Acura TL with a Hyundai?
These are some serious questions Hyundai need to find out if they want their first $30K plus RWD luxury performance sedan to succeed.
The similarity between those two is that both of them are attempting to go outside their traditional market thus the comfort zone is no longer there. Both of these are attempts trying to challenge the big boys in their own back yard. They are trying to convert buyers from another market instead of simply join that market.
Saturday we were having a party and cars came up and we started talking about the Genesis. The person I was talking to didn't know about the car so we went to Hyundais website for the Genesis. This guy, an E-Class owner, was very much interested in it just by its looks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Geez, I am very interested in Genesis just by the way it looks too. Why you think I am here in the first place? However, at the end of the day, if one can afford an E-class and money really isn't much of an issue do you think your friend is going to pick the Genesis over the E-class?
Showing interest doesn't mean that one is going to buy that car. Ask rocky if he's going to pick the Genesis over the 08' CTS and I think you know the answer better than I do.
Look at this way, MOST hard-core domestic lovers wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai and MOST German/Japanese luxury car owners are spoiled by their rides so Hyundai won't even show up on their radar screen. Who's left to buy a $30K luxury performance sedan from Hyundai?
Hyundai on the other hand is producing a car that is slightly more than the next highest car. Hyundai is not going outside their traditional market. They are pushing the envelope of their current market. Thats the way to grow a company.
If Hyundai was putting out a $60K hand built car I would agree with you. But since they aren't your comparison doesn't work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
To bash Hyundai.
do you think your friend is going to pick the Genesis over the E-class?
Your right money isn't an issue to him, he gts what he likes and wants. If he likes the Genesis over any other car he will buy it.
Showing interest doesn't mean that one is going to buy that car.
No but its a good indication especially when you know the guy buys things he shows interest in.
Ask rocky if he's going to pick the Genesis over the 08' CTS and I think you know the answer better than I do.
I don't know ask him. If I didn't already own one I would most likely wait until the Genesis comes out to compare the two.
Look at this way, MOST hard-core domestic lovers wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai
I am a domestic lover and I drive a Hyundai.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't see how the comparison is bad. :confuse:
I did say "MOST" didn't I?
I am talking base prices only. The Phaeton started at $65K. Ok lets look at the W12 Phaeton started at $80K.
Hyundai is selling cars/SUVs (except Veracruz) in the mid-$20K range and trying to compete with luxury midsizers.
yes and the Genesis is going to start in the upper $20's. Going from mid $20's to upper $20's is nothing like jumping from around $40K to over $65K.
The Phaeton was a jump of over 70% from the next most expensive car WV had (based on base price). For your comparison to make sense the Genesis would have to start at the upper 40's but its not it will be almost 10 grand less.
Both of them are trying to undercut their competitors with products carry lower-market manufactures' badges
The Phaeton in no way shape and form was priced to undercut the competition (starting at $65K and going up exceeding $100K) thats in the S class range.
Thats why your comparison is bad.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The best argument for Genesis becoming a notable success is the Chrysler 300, but consider the bulk of it's sales are south of $30k, in Base and Touring form.
The reasons 300 worked are many:
1. Styling. Original and uncompromised, it has a design still unmatched by the competition.
2. Hemi. They jumped on the Hemi wave at it's peak, and the Hemi brought in traffic.
3. Network. Over 3000 dealers will have an advantage over less than 1000 Hyundai (probably more like 5-600), and you get just that many more eyes on the product.
4. American. People WANT a Great American hope. It fits the bill nicely.
If Azera was pumpin' out 50-60k, I'd say they have a shot. But 25-30k sales just doesn't inspire confidence.
I say it's a poor idea, but it won't be the first. Or the worst.
DrFill
louiswei, never, say never. It's a matter of economics also. I lust for a V8 Cadillac STS, because it's bigger and when I have family come in or in-laws travel with me I need a bigger car so they don't feel like Sardines. I'd love to own a new STS, but why buy a 2 yr. old used one when I can get a new Genesis for the same money and it will have all the latest toys and more than a STS. Would I be caught dead in a Hyundai Genesis ?????? Let's just say maybe. They are union made and I found out a little more on the treatment of Hyundai, workers vs. other workers in South Korea. They aren't abused like other workers and make more money then other union workers under better working conditions than I was lead to believe.
Wanna know what else louiswei, Delphi the company my father retired from builds MULTEC 3 Fuel Injectors for Hyundai/Kia. Yeah they use to come out of Coopersville which closed late last year and was consolidated with the Rochester NY plant. So I might just be elegible for a Hyundai discount through dad. I am having my local dealer find out if I'm elgible for a discount through Delphi. If I am that sweetens the pot some more as a affordable choice as I don't need a luxury emblem like Cadillac to boost my status. I'm quite happy with who I am and if the CTS, was a Chevy, I'd be just as okay with it as I am it being a Caddy. It's not like I'm going to get any perks based on what I drive from the locals am I ?????
-Rocky
P.S. Weren't you the one who called the TL, (my pet) ? :P
FYI- the 09' if it has SH-AWD could be on my list as well. Well that is the order's I got from the wife. :surprise:
If you are so pessimistic about Hyundai's future, then why don't you go run Hyundai.
Few thoughts as mentioned previously:
1) The luxury program will take time but until then, what do you think Hyundai should do, sit around?
2) We know Hyundai can build a quality/reliable car, but Hyundai building mainstream economy models WILL not improve its image any better than in the current case, going upmarket.
I want to hear what you and louiswei would do before I continue...
How about getting ready for the debut of the luxury brand and continuing to improve the current products?
2) We know Hyundai can build a quality/reliable car, but Hyundai building mainstream economy models WILL not improve its image any better than in the current case, going upmarket.
Thus I think Hyundai is ready to launch its own luxury brand. Genesis will be a great car and do not deserve the Hyundai badge treatment.
Learn from success, not failure. :surprise:
Follow Toyota/Lexus strategy to the letter.
Get people used to you as a quality car maker (not there yet), win some more awards. If you think you're there, wait another 5 years, then, another 2.
Sell some Azeras. Build some credibility! Establish that you can sell what you make, before trying to sell what you don't.
Build a proper business case for a new luxury channel. Put together a comprehensive R&D program.
Come up with 3 great cars. Release two to start, and the third in Year 2.
Spend at least 1 year developing a Premium Ad Campaign, not the GM-style horsestuff we've been getting. :sick:
Develop your dealer and service network.
Come up with a name.
Then you can go to Step 2.
Until then, DO NOT PASS GO! :mad:
DrFill
Predicted Genesis sales = current Azera sales x ( current Veracruz sales / current Santa Fe sales )
I’ve been lurking here for a while and enjoy the discussion but since I was also an engineer (when I was a working stiff) you’ve got to help me out.
You’re going to have to prove to me the validity of your equation before you will convince me that you are not thinking with the bracketed part of your statement above. I never saw anything like this before (looks like a seat of the pants equation derived from dart throwing with your eyes closed). Now, if you could plug in some numbers maybe I could put my sliderule (that’s what we used when I went to school) to work so that I can figure it out. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's a waste of time because there's no correlation. The Veracruz is an SUV and the Santa Fe is an SUV. The Genesis is a sedan. So much for "scientifically and logically (I use my head instead of my you-know-what)." Heee, hee.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Isn't that what Hyundai is doing right now?
1. I see Santa Fe as an equal to Azera in Hyundai's SUV lineup.
2. Since Veracruz is a step up from Santa Fe and Genesis is a step up from Azera I see the Genesis is an equal to the Veracruz in Hyundai's sedan lineup. In case the point didn't come across clearly:
Hyundai Sedans: Sonata -> Azera -> Genesis
Hyundai SUVs/CUVs: Tucson -> Santa Fe -> Veracruz
3. Since the Veracruz is starting at $26.5K and the Limited AWD version tops out at $38K (roughly the range where Genesis will fall into) I see its sales would be a good indicator of how well the messes will accept a $30K+ Hyundai.
Because of the 3 reasons above thus I came up the equations previous posted. I am not saying that the equation is accurate to a certain degree but if I'll have to make a prediction about how many Genesis Hyundai will sell that'll be the equation I rely on. I know it would not reflect the reality because there are many "noise variables" but it is better than pulling some number out of my you-know-what.
I would love to plug in some numbers but since the Veracruz has only been in market for very short period of time I am afraid it won't reflect the whole picture. Maybe in a month or 2 when the Veracruz sales becomes stable then we can come back and revisit the equation.
Is Hyundai going to create a luxury brand?
Will the Genesis carry the Hyundai badge or not?