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Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you wanted to make a prediction you should have said, “this is my prediction” but you presented it as a fact that can be supported by some made up equation. I doubt that you would use an unproven equation in your area of engineering expertise.
I know it would not reflect the reality because there are many "noise variables" but it is better than pulling some number out of my you-know-what.
Until something is proven and numbers are thrown out, I know from what part of the anatomy the information is coming.
I would love to plug in some numbers but since the Veracruz has only been in market for very short period of time I am afraid it won't reflect the whole picture.
OK, I think I got it now. Your equation is a rush to judgment. I sure hope you are not selected as a juror in a murder trial.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Maybe someone should learn how to read first before making all the comments...
Since I am the one posting this equation what do you think it is besides "my prediction"? :confuse:
I would never use an unproven equation in any work but in this case if I have to make an "educated prediction" I'd rather to rely on all the supportive information that I can gather. Maybe you can share with us what's your prediction for the future Genesis sales. I sure hope it's not just a number straight out from you-know-what. Any reasonable logic is better than no logic.
Your equation is a rush to judgment.
Doesn't make any sense. Sorry.
I respect your opinion pal, but it seems like your estimated sales numbers for the Genesis, are coming from you know just a little at least.
louiswei, don't you think it's possible that Hyundai, has bigger and brighter plans beyond the Genesis. Maybe their future luxury division will have base cars like the Mercedes S-Class for the above $40,000 mark with their top offering being a Rolls Royce or Bentley for under $100K ????? We just don't know what might be up this company's sleeve yet and while the Genesis, might be the company's top offering now it just might be it's middle premium luxury division like Buick is at GM. I think a whole seperate luxury division is coming in the future and those automobiles will be priced like Mercedes, but will feel like Maybach's :shades:
-Rocky
1. I like Genesis, probably won't buy one but wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to my friends and family (same goes for many GM models). Yes, I am biased, blah blah blah...
2. What I don't like is the idea of Genesis carrying the Hyundai badge.
3. I am not here to bash the Genesis but to bash the idea of Genesis carrying the Hyundai badge.
4. If Hyundai debuts the Genesis along with a luxury brand then I'll be the first to toss out my "equation".
5. Hyundai is ready for a luxury brand with the Genesis, Veracruz and a performance coupe based on the Genesis platform.
6. Hyundai is not a luxury or semi-luxury brand and never will be. Spin it anyway you want this simply just won't happen. If Honda, Toyota, Nissan are not luxury/semi-luxury brands then Hyundai sure the heck isn't.
7. Mainstream brands (like Hyundai) sell mainstream cars (some with luxury touch) and luxury brands sell luxury cars. If Hyundai is marketing the Genesis as a full-size RWD performance sedan like the 300 and future G8 then it will be fine with the Hyundai badge. However, if it is going to be luxury performance sedan like the 5er, E-class, GS and M then the Hyundai badge treatment simply won't cut it.
Luxury performance sedan != Performance sedan with luxury touch
I hope this post gets my points across...
your point is heard loud and clear but I think good number of people could give a [non-permissible content removed] about a damn emblem. Why in the hell does a badge make or break a luxury car. Sure the shallow people seem to make that the #1 priority thus is why you have so many ES 350 sales for Lexus. People want to be seen in a Lexus, even though it's a well dressed Camry. :confuse:
-Rocky
The Genesis isn't even here. It might not even show up, right? And there are plans for the numbers it would see...
I see the Hondai company as having enough smarts to do market studies about its buyers of current and proposed future cars. I see lots of Azeras here. There's an image change that's has evolved even faster than the GM image change has been.
I ask people driving recent Hondai products about their cars and get universal stories of satisfaction with the products. I ask those driving Sonatas, 350s, and larger vehicles, not the smaller ones.
I see this positive PR as boding great for a larger, more expensive automobile. That is predicated on its being well built and laid out for the dollars involved.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
THE ES350 DOES SELL RIGHT?
I rest my case.
I am here to argue about what's the best for Hyundai (or Genesis), not what's the way car buying should be.
I'm not going to predict anything about Genesis nor do I care if it makes it to market at a price of $30K, $40K, with or without the Hyundai badge. The only reason I jumped into this discussion was to question your "Predicted Genesis Sales Equation" which you still cannot support.
Any reasonable logic is better than no logic.
The operable word here is "reasonable" and I haven't heard any "reasonable" logic from you thus far.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I did give my assumptions/reasons behind my equation apparently you don't agree with it and that's totally fine. But it is just wrong to say that I did NOT provide them to back up my equation.
The operable word here is "reasonable" and I haven't heard any "reasonable" logic from you thus far.
Not reasonable for you does not mean not reasonable for me or the others.
To each of his/her own.
This world will be a better place if more people can lighten up and respect different voice and opinions even if one doesn't agree with it.
Guess I am wasting my bandwidth...
2008 Hyundai Genesis
or
2008 Genesis 460L
You're right I didn't think you made any reasonable logic to support your argument. I don't know what the other readers thought. Maybe you'll hear from them.
This world will be a better place if more people can lighten up and respect different voice and opinions even if one doesn't agree with it.
I can be as light or lighter than a lot of people. Don't confuse this with disagreeing with someone. Just because someone doesn't agree with me doesn't make them bad; it does, however, make them an idiot, see what I mean about lightness.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
True, I sometimes refer to people who don't agree with me idiots too.
I can agree with this. Mostly because a RWD Genesis should offer considerable 'value' compared to the established brands in this market.
"2. What I don't like is the idea of Genesis carrying the Hyundai badge."
I disagree. Buyers SEEKING OUT a RWD sedan are typically more savvy (IMO) than the vast hordes perfectly happy with a FWD 'performance' sedan. These potential Genesis buyers won't (IMO) be 'fooled' by an upmarket badge. They'll KNOW it's a Hyundai, regardless of the badge. I don't know how many current BMW/MB/Infiniti/Lexus owners would turn up their nose at a "Hyundai" badge but have no problem with a "Genesis" badge.
"5. Hyundai is ready for a luxury brand with the Genesis, Veracruz and a performance coupe based on the Genesis platform."
Disagree. Neither Toyota nor Honda was 'ready' to put out a luxury brand until AFTER they became established (very WELL established) and known for something BESIDES just 'good value'. And if you've made your mark by being known as a 'good value', what happens to that value when you've got to recoup the cost of establishing a completely new dealer network for your new brand?
"6. Hyundai is not a luxury or semi-luxury brand and never will be. Spin it anyway you want this simply just won't happen. If Honda, Toyota, Nissan are not luxury/semi-luxury brands then Hyundai sure the heck isn't."
One needs to have luxury or semi-luxury CARS before you can be known as a luxury or semi-luxury brand. Question: should Mazda have gone ahead and launched a new upmarket brand to coincide with the Millenia sedan? Should they have invested the hundreds of millions necessary to build all the new dealerships necessary for the launch of a new brand?
Just looking at the paint job made me think Lexus was an upscale car. Does anyone else remember this?? So, I am hoping the paint on the Genesis will be in a class at least with the Lexus or BMW. Each upscale car is an moving advertisement/billboard and has to "look" the part.
How many is a good number of people, Rock?
Azeras don't sell very well, you see advertising increasing, because days in supply is flat/increasing. 25k-30k a year is nothing to build a Genesis off of. That is not a successful track record.
All right here is the real problem.
How many diamond rings do you buy sold out of a paper bag? How many do your friends buy valuable items that way?
This is not the way luxury business is done in America. Case Closed! Hyundai needs to learn that.
Car sales. Dating. Presidents. Movies. It's all in the presentation. It's all salesmanship. If you don't think it matters, then get out, because it matters!
They can learn it the easy way, or the VW way.
Whether they like it, or whether they don't like it, learn to love it!
They will learn. Learn is the word of the day!
Passat W8, Touraeg, Photon.
I don't see the difference. :lemon:
DrFill
I am getting tired of this VW comparison as it is very poor at best.
With the Genesis Hyundai is not taking an existing car putting in a questionable costly engine in it and charging 10K more as VW did with the Passat W8.
With the Genesis Hyundai is not trying to market a hand made car that costs twice as much as any other car they make as VW did with the Phaeton.
Hyundai trying to learn something from VW would be a costly mistake for them.
The difference is between night and day and if you don't see it your blind.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well I 100% agree with your position as it's seems most agree with it.
-Rocky
Doc, you know as well as I do that 75% or better baught the ES 350 because it wears a Lexus badge. I don't remember how many the ES 350 sold last year but obviously the badge was worth a extra $5500 over the Camry XLE?
The Genesis, has no counter part. You won't see the Genesis, being a rebadged Kia, thus kinda proves my point
-Rocky
-Rocky
Hyundai has proven, to me at least, their improvements in product selection, quality and value. I don't give a damn what people think about the brand of car I drive. Trouble is, many Hyundai service departments don't either.
The 07 was virtually the same as 06, with some very minor changes. They are now making a cheaper version.
In my opinion, Hyundai should pull out all stops and load up the Azera with all of the bells and whistles of the Korean model to see if the American consumer is willing to pay more than 30k for a Hyundai.
Although most Azera owners are pleased with their cars, Hyundai is not blowing the doors off the showrooms with consumers rushing to make purchases. As seen on these forums, many buyers are buying at deep discounts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hyundai has no leg to stand on.
So the difference is night and day. VW was better off! :surprise:
DrFill
Hyundai didn't upgrade the Azera but did offer a cheaper version.
After a few weeks of driving the Sonata, he really loved it and said, "you know, I've discovered that I am no less handsome in the Hyundai than I was in the BMW, and it hasn't changed my manhood one bit."
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
You're right!
Mid-life crisis does not relate to Hyundai.
Grey heads (like me) either are price conscious
and economical or have the ability and desire to drive a "prestige" car.
I'm not sure that I can see the current market for a hot,high powered, high performance luxury car with a Hyundai badge.
Hyundais image is a long warranty, economical, good performing vehicle.
The non grey heads are a definite minority at the showrooms and driving on the streets.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But, he soon came to the realization that it was a very comfortable car with some great features and a nice ride with a long warranty. As floridabob pointed out, though, is this same satisfied customer likely to look at a pricier luxury vehicle? Not sure. I think it'll be difficult to transcend the image of "appliance car" for them.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
On the other hand Hyundais quality and reliability has been going up over the last 10 years and is on par with anything else made today.
WV was in no way better off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hyundai may be ok, but on par with anything else made today is pushing it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
-Rocky
The following link will show some pictures of next generation Tiburon. It seems like BK will get 2.0 turbocharged Theta engine with 220-250 HP and 6MT or 5AT.
http://www.bobaedream.co.kr/board/bbs/news_view.php?code=nnews&No=22492
The cheaper version had various reasons behind the decision.
To those with doubts consumers are not ready for a 30K+ Hyundai, just keep in mind the demographics of the Azera is made up just under 90% of the Limited trim, and most with the Ultimate package, which pushes the MSRP over $30K.
Using louiswei's formula, Hyundai sold 6743 Santa Fes in April compared to 650 Veracruz, so a Hyundai Genesis should have less than 1/10 the Azera's annual sales of 24,000, or way below Hyundai's modest goal of 20,000 Genesis sales per year.
Speaking of the Touareg, VW's $38-59,000 SUV is basically the same car as Audi's $40-60,000 Q7 SUV, except it's slightly cheaper and doesn't have the luxury brand name. In April, VW sold 468 Touaregs and Audi sold 1867 Q7s.
So I may have been wrong about Hyundai selling 3 times as many cars by starting a luxury division, it may be 4 times as many, or even 10+ times as many if louiswei is right and the Genesis sells less than 2400 per year as a Hyundai. Mazda had to slash $4000 off the Millenia's price to $31,000 4 years after introduction, but dealerships must have needed further incentives to sell the car below invoice, cutting Mazda's profits to 1/2 or 1/3. Lexus increased LS400 prices from $35,000 to $50,000 five years after introduction, potentially increasing profits per car 3 or 4 times. So 6-12 times as much profit per car and 4-10+ times as many sold equals 24-120+ times as much money as calling it a Hyundai. Plus more sales and better reputation for the rest of the Hyundai/Kia/Genesis lines just like Toyota experienced after the launch of Lexus.
Hyundai should start a Genesis luxury brand with the upcoming M sedan and rebadge the Veracruz as the X SUV after adding more amenities like real wood trim and navigation system and the more powerful Genesis engines. With the foolish and catastrophic decision to try to sell a $27-38,000 SUV as a Hyundai, they may have already caused irreparable harm to the concept of Hyundai's luxury division. If Hyundai tries to sell a $29-40,000 luxury sedan with similar specs as a V8 RWD Lexus LS460, as a Hyundai, they should forever give up on the idea of a luxury division or being the #1 carmaker like Toyota, and settle for being the Korean Mazda.
Hyundai has no leg to stand on.
So the difference is night and day. VW was better off!
Yes and no. VW had a better track record it didn't have Hyundai's past image when it first started in 86 and early 90s, but then it also has the track record of poor reliability and customer service, to date. Various publications will tell you VW's track record of quality, reliability, etc is in much worst shape than Hyundai (US).
See, VW made it a mistake by selling a $60K+ luxury sedan; VW made it a mistake by selling a $40K mainstream/premium midsize Passat. Hyundai is not making a mistake selling a $30K luxury LARGE RWD sedan.
At best, the Passat is comparable to the Azera, despite the Azera also being a large sedan:
Passat - Azera
Phaeton - BH
Phaeton @ 60K+; BH @ 28K-40K
If I were to spend 60K, I wouldn't get the Phaeton, as nice as the car was (no question about it). Instead, I will pick up a BH, and one of the the following: CTS/G35/3er
No brainer, why get one when you can get one + one
Wrong on both counts.
1) Most dealers don't have enough units
2) People are paying 30K+ Hyundai - see my previous post.
Hyundai needs to get the word out about Azera and Veracruz. Both are fantastic vehicle few knew their existence (unlike the Sonata and Elantra which has track records behind them).
The equation is flawed. You can't predict sales with some equation, the auto industry doesn't work like that.
And again, a luxury brand will come, but will take time. A lot of these suggestions are unrealistic, to say the least.
Keep in mind Hyundai's only been in the US for some 20 year.
It was the Mazda3 of it's day, the anti-Camry, and was getting all the press it wanted. Great commercials. Comparison victories. Even high resale value!
Passat proved the car wasn't the problem. Selling a $40k VW was the problem. Spin it however you like. The market spoke loud and clear.
#2: How many people buy diamond rings in paper bags?
Hyundai can try, but they will learn, one way or another.
BTW, Hyundai sales were flat last year, with a virtually new lineup, and sales are down this year? There is NO EXCUSE for that. :confuse:
The answer is not charge more for product. :sick:
DrFill
The Passat is not comparable to the BH. Like I said earlier, VW made a mistake selling the $60K+ Phaeton, Hyundai is not making the mistake selling the $28K-$40K BH.
Can we get off on the VW/Hyundai comparison? VW made a mistake, Hyundai isn't. End of story.
#2: How many people buy diamond rings in paper bags?
Actually, lots.
Again, you're speculating. When the luxury brand arrives, let's talk, but until then, there is no guarantee, you make it sound like an unknown luxury brand will automatically equal success (not that I'm saying Hyundai's luxury brand will not succeed).
If luxury brands are soundly successful without any work, then everyone should just go out and create one...The auto industry just doesn't work like this. It's not about some equation, nor all things are always equal...
From the forum buyer reports, most people report making purchases at hugh discounts.
BMW, MB, Lexus, Infinity, Acura do not offer these types of discounts. There must be a reason.
So, want to enlighten us about how does the auto industry work?
Based on history...
Honda created a luxury brand called Acura, then
Toyota created a luxury brand called Lexus, then finally
Nissan crated a luxury brand called Infiniti.
All three have been successful to a certain degree with Lexus claimed NA's top selling luxury brand within 10 years of its debut. If Hyundai is modeling itself after Toyota might as well do it the whole way, not the cost-cutting (or half-a**) way. It is expensive to start a brand new luxury division (all the advertising, marketing and new dealer chain...) but it has to understand that it takes money to make money. Sometimes (well, most of the time) shortcuts just ain't gonna cut it.
As for the VW/Hyundai comparison. The point is that both of them being the mainstream brands with history and statistics telling us that buyers just won't bite on the "over-$40K VW" idea. Doesn't matter if it's Phaeton, Passat W8 or Toureg. With that as an example, it is reasonable to speculate that Hyundai will have trouble to sell its over $30K units (with the Veracruz sort of proving the point). Of course, another example is the Mazda with its 929 and Millennium. Those might not be the best comparisons in the world but if one can get out of the model-to-model comparison mind frame and look it from the overall company strategic point of view then there are definitely some similarities.
Since the [non-permissible content removed] 3 have proven that a new luxury division will work (with good products of course) and VW and Mazda sort of proved that luxury entries with mainstream badge won't then now it's up to Hyundai to decide which route to take.
One thing I learned in the last few years...
History DOES repeat itself.
DrFill
Give it time. I think Hyundai knows what they're doing.
Where do you see indication Veracruz not selling? From sales? Keep in mind this is only the second full months since Veracruz started appearing in the showroom, that and the fact most dealers are not exactly blessed with a full arsenal of trims ready to sell. Heck, full advertising hasn't even started yet. Aside from car nuts like us, how many of the general public knows about the Veracruz?
I believe Hyundai buyers are ready for a $30K+ vehicle, the demographic of the Azera buyers proves this point.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Mrs. jmonroe has an 06' Sonata LX. That thing is pretty peppy and I have to admit I don't look too shabby when I'm in it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl