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Hyundai Genesis Sedan 2009+

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    iluv, you and I found some common ground on one of those rare occassions once again. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    4) My guess is Genesis will end up competing, in price and segment, against 300C, G8 and Avalon, rather than 5 series, C class and Infiniti M.

    That is your opinion but I find it absurd as it out class's all of them by a country miles. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    paisan,

    Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you !!!! :blush:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Some people are just gullible and will lay down a lot of money for a name that they believe is raising their social status.

    I can't believe how right you are. Why do so many americans at it seem like it is a top priority in this country to buy name brand things just to show the "Jones" look at what I got and what you don't have. :mad: That is so immature and I ask where are peoples morales. No wonder why neighbors don't get along any more. People are so mean to each other.

    Bragging about social status is a sin in my book of morales. Most people who have to brag about what they own are so far in debt that if they missed a day of overtime they would be belly up to their creditors. I also notive in my 28 years on this earth a lot of luxury car owners and people that wear name brands don't really have
    a "pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of" ;)

    The Genesis, doesn't need a badge to make it a great luxury car.

    Rocky
  • fenris2fenris2 Posts: 31
    Hmm.. Ballpark, it probably costs about 3-4 mil to build a nice dealership from square one - if they do the seperate brand. That will affect car price somehow.

    While I would have no issue buying a Genesis (if I were not looking diesel next year) I think a lot of luxury marque buyers might not do so.

    They will have to crunch the numbers and see. One other possibilty is that they are trying to raise the Hyundai image with launching the luxury marque as well. I bet they will watch the veracruz numbers like hawks, and that should be a good inidcation of just how high price a Hyundai can go...

    Anyway, History of Phaeton and Mazda Millenia (remember that one?) both point to failure for a luxury marque launched from a 'volume' brand... so I have my doubts. Even if it cost more up front, I think they would be best sereved by a separate brand
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    So you would never buy a Hyundai unless they called it something else? I have news for you no matter what they called it it still would be a Hyundai just like Lexus is still a Toyota. Are you really that shallow?

    It's pretty amazing isn't it. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I've owned 2 Cadillac's and one Acura, and because I want a Cadillac STS V8 like car for my next car because of room and safety for my family and of course the power, performance, gadgetology, warranty, reliability. Cadillac's problem is they have priced the STS around $10-15K higher than my 2002 Seville STS. While this generation sTS improved it wasn't dramatic enough to charge that much more. The STS, also has been manufactored cheaper because the UAW workers now assemble the STS in teams and no longer do just 1-3 jobs. So I think GM, should of held it's end of the "total value pricing" and kept prices in check while giving the consumer more. So now Cadillac, has to put major cash on the hood in the spring to move these cars which ultimately kills resale value and credibility. I suppose I could wait for these deals but even with those deals the Genesis, will still be $15K+ cheaper unless Cadillac, wants to move the 07's. The 2008 STS gets a fresher design and a improvement on the interior. You now can get BLISS and Lane Departure warning system but the question is how much more ?

    I as most of you know am a huge GM, fan but the cars I like from GM, are getting pretty damn pricey and the cars I was expecting to buy might not be made because of Lutz and the CAFE issue. If Hyundai, can convince this GM, loyalist to give them a look I think it's possible that others will do the same thing. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    As I explained your compairing apples to oranges. Hyundai, has a lot more cedibility right now than VW. The only successful car in the U.S. VW, has ever had was the Beetle which was a chick car so to the hippee baby boomers reliving the 60's with peace signs all over the bumpers. ;) Oh wait the Jetta, was decent but has lost it's clout just like the Beetle.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I think we are all generally on the same page here despite some people feeling strong on one side or the other.

    -agree

    I can go either way but from a business POV they should see if it takes off before jumping in with 2 feet.

    -agree

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    nycdc911,

    I hope now you are happy ?

    Hey can we become friends now :P If this holds true I will be happy as we can stop all the debating. We can shake hands and drink a beer now. :blush:

    Rocky

    P.S. good find ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Doctor,

    don't you think in todays market place you need to adapt and take chances ? I think it's a "get on board or be left behind" marketplace !!!!

    Yes I read all your posts. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Dad, told me iluv, that he was glad to be retired as he saw the writing on the wall at GM, not so much of Toyota, but because of Hyundai. He said those guys are smart and know how to run a business. They were so smart they buy the best fuel injectors in the world from Delphi. ;)

    Rocky
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Genesis, Rocky --- Genesis! ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Well Acura, has built their image on "value" ;) The Acura, brand is one where people get a lot but don't get charged alot. Now imagine the Acura RL, which is a well priced inexpensive fine automobile being lowered to TL, prices ?

    I'm saying nobody, and I mean nobody in the forseeable future will touch Hyundai, on value luxury !!!!! ;)

    That is what the Genesis, will be. It will be like buying a RL at TL prices....Well sort of only better. ;)

    Rocky
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    RE: 207
    You guys are Hyundai snobs.
    Don't you feel bad for the people who have to drive BMW, Infiniti, MB, RR, Bentley.
    Those poor people are suffering with those lousy brands every day.
    Have a little sympathy!
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Sorry, Pat I guess I got sidetracked for a brief momment. :blush:

    I'll get back on track......

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Well if your a rich man why bother with the Genesis, some will say.....However the Genesis, under whatever brand Hyundai, decides will sell in huge volumes if they watch the price and offer the consumer as much as they say they will under $40,000 it will do well. They then should come up with a Twin- Turbo 500 hp Tau V8 version of the Genesis, with even more "stuff" for around $45K or so. :shades:

    Rocky
  • ocg35manocg35man Posts: 52
    Wow, It's amazing there is such a huge discussion on this
    concept car by Hyundai !

    If Hyundai actually creates new luxury division just like
    Infiniti and Lexus, it is a gamble,but sometimes you just
    have to take that chance.

    Even though it will cost lots of money for new division, in
    my opinion pricing will be critical. Compare to Infiniti or
    Lexus, price has to be at least 15% less than them. Not
    because lesser quality or content, but that's the way to
    get into the market they never had. That's how Lexus did it.

    If Hyundai do this project correctly they will be successful. However it will not be easy. Someone(Other Luxury brands) will have to suffer. At least in U.S. there
    are many people who wants luxury or very near luxury cars
    for $30 to $40k.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    ocg35man, Welcome aboard :)

    Rocky
  • splx81splx81 Posts: 23
    Smart! :)

    I think Hyundai is trying to get rid of those negative

    perceptions on Hyundai badge with this ad by comparing

    their cars to some luxury brands. Interesting to see this

    because it means they are preparing for the all new

    Genesis. :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kom_zSpYZfc
  • sergio19sergio19 Posts: 90
    splx81,

    Thanks for sharing...I have sent it to all my friends.
    Please consider me a SNOB from now on...except I'm a Hyundai snob and proud too!
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Those got to be the best TV commercials I've ever seen. That guys voice is so humorious..... :D

    They get a A+ for creativity. ;)

    Hyundai, the car company that will take apart Honyota !!!!

    Great Post !!!!!!

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Hyundai luxury sedan caught testing prior to debut at New York auto show

    If you want to see some pics and a video of the next great Luxury car here it is if you haven't seen this from edmunds. :shades:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=120058?tid=edmunds.- il.home.photopanel..3.*#5

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Wow, sergio19, great video....... :shades:

    Rocky
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,603
    nowhere near 50 grand as you claim,

    Where did I ever say near 50 grand? I said north of 40K, there is a big difference. The sites I read stated it started near 40K. So unless there were no optional equipment then a fully loaded one would be more.

    Even those advocating Hyundai not start a luxury brand admit that luxury owners will not buy the Genesis if it's called a Hyundai

    Thats because many of us believe that Hyundai is NOT targeting luxury car owners, but those who maybe want more for less.

    And obviously calling it a new luxury brand name like Genesis will not prevent any of the so called blue collar luxury shoppers from buying it if they would have bought it as a Hyundai.

    It could very well stop them from considering the Genesis. For the exact same reason they wouldn't consider a Benz, BMW or Lexus. That being that it is a luxury badge and they don't want to pay the extra cost for a nameplate.

    If it's the same car they're getting, everyone would prefer it have a prestigious luxury division name instead of a Hyundai which sells the cheapest cars in the civilized world.

    Be careful your bias is showing. IIRC Chevy sells the cheapest car (read least expensive) car in the US. Hyundai sell good cars for less money.

    and of the 15,000 economy owners moving up, 5000 will choose the added prestige

    Or those 5,000 will choose an upscale Honda or Toyota or some other make and not even consider a "luxury brand". Or if they choose to go upscale they would more likely take an establish brand.

    Sales should be great if it's the start of a new luxury division which in itself will cause tons of press and excitement.

    yes and guess how much greater it would be with the name of a company that is fast becoming know for providing great cars for less money.

    And also remember that 95% of luxury buyers are completely uninterested in this thread and any Hyundai,

    And what makes you think they would be interested in a rebadged Hyundai?

    A Hyundai Genesis would flop just like VW's $37,900 W8 Passat or Phaeton.

    The Phaeton started north of 60 grand which is why it flopped. A Hyundai Genesis starting at under half that price will sell well enough.

    History tells us what flops,

    Yes history does and I wonder if the word "Sterling" ever pops up in the minds of Hyundai execs when they think of starting a new Luxury division.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,603
    Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money and the salespeople have no clue how to sell luxury cars.

    Really? We could afford all but a few cars sold today and me and the wife drives Hyundais as our daily drives. The nearest Hyundai dealer to me also sells Buicks and Saabs so I would think they have some experience in selling luxury.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    Ouch, 4 years after its introduction, Mazda had to cut the price of the Mazda Millenia $2500-5500 and it still cost $32,000?? Another humongous failure there to go with the $37,900 W8 Passat, Phaeton, etc.

    http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1995-to-2002-mazda-millenia.htm

    "1999 Mazda Millenia: The big change for '99 was a hefty $2500-$5500 price cut, but that had little effect on used-car prices. Other changes included revised grille and tail appearances, new wood and chrome trim inside, and one-inch larger wheels."

    http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1999/lheilig_mazda_millenia.h- tml

    WOMAN ON WHEELS: 1999 Mazda Millenia...

    PURSE

    The base price for the Mazda Millenia is $31,045. With the options (heated seats, heated mirrors, chrome wheels, Four Seasons package) the bottom line on the sticker was $32,675.

    I think this car is priced right for its styling, its comfort, and its drive. I'd pay $32,000 just for the drive alone. The options are worth the extra money because they make life easier in the winter.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Snake, I like the word "Sterling" for a name of a premium division for Hyundai. :shades:

    The name I came up with was "Passion" but yours might be even better because it's more manly. ;)

    Rocky
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,603
    Snake, I like the word "Sterling" for a name of a premium division for Hyundai.

    Well then its to bad they can't use it. Anyway Sterling failed so do you want to name a new luxury division after a failed luxury car division?

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I guess not....I hope it's something catchy. I think if Hyundai, does come up with a luxury brand I think they should really rub it in the luxury owners faces and give it's customers "BMW like" Free Maintence and maybe push the bumper to bumper warranty to 10 years 100K. :D

    Rocky
  • stancostanco Posts: 27
    I did handle it. I'm refering to rt. 280 east in NJ between exits and 6 and 8a - 3 lane state hwy - 65mph speed limit. the service mgr. told me he avoids it.

    I've driven 2 models of mercedes, infinity m45, jag xkr, 2 nissans max and altima,
    my 85 silver spur, none of them reacted as violent as my genny.

    this Hyundai is as stated, fabulous in many ways but has a major defect in suspension,period! No amount of money paid to editors will hide it.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    And history tells us a Hyundai Genesis will fail like the W8 Passat and Phaeton, nobody even knew those cars existed, and yet another Hyundai would get lost in the shuffle and completely ignored by luxury buyers.

    Creating a whole new luxury car company generates an incredible amount of buzz and excitement, and would more than triple sales.


    I am really amazed by your logic. You're relying on history as almost all of your basis? Somehow if history dictated where Hyundai would be today, then I would suggest we go back and re-write history because Hyundai has proven history wrong. Point being, it's way too early to write the Genesis off, especially from a company called Hyundai. They've got too much success and drive to fail.

    Many things cannot happen overnight. For one, there is no guarantee a luxury division would proven with any better success than its Hyundai brand, not to mention the complicated process setting up the brand, dealer networks, timing, and other issues which would need to be sorted out. It's not as easy as 1-2-3, contrary to your position.

    Hyundai has some of the worst dealerships around, that's why they're being dropped left and right. Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money and the salespeople have no clue how to sell luxury cars.

    With all due respect, that is one of the most ignorant statements I've heard in a long time. You really need to do some research before posting incorrect info or criticism. And, the demographics of the Azera owners would indicate otherwise. No, Hyundai customers are not strap for cash, as close to 90% have gone with the top (Limited) trim and within, many opted for the Ultimate package.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I will gross between $60-70K this year. Is that poor ? I sometimes think I am. brightness04, says that puts me in the top 20% and yes I'm considering a hyundai, as my next car. I'm not rich, but nor do I think I'm poor. I'd rather be wise with my money and apply it torwards investments, spending it on vacations, wife, kids, than on a luxury emblem that means zilch to me. If I won't get special treatment because I don't drive a well known luxury emblem I don't need to do business with those folks. If I was a business man and saw some slob in a well know luxury emblem I would think this guy either is very wealthy or is living like somebody he isn't. If the same person rolled up in a Hyundai Genesis, I say this guy probably has a few bucks left in his pocket. :P

    Rocky
  • I have worked in Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Australia, Russia, Kuwait, Canada, Italy, Germany, Peru, and the U.S. I work for a major U.S. firm and am considered upper class in the U.S. I always had a company car while overseas. In Korea I drove a Samsung SM7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_SM7), In Japan I drove a Toyota Crown, in Kuwait I drove a Mercedes, in Germany and Italy I drove a BMW, etc... Point is I am back in the U.S. now and have 2 cars, a Lexus LS 460L and a Hyundai Azera Limited. The Lexus is by far a much more luxurious vehicle and should be, it wasn't cheap. I could by 3 Azera's for the price of the Lexus.

    My point is that Hyundai is a quality built vehicle, is it 83K quality, no... but it is far superior to any American tagged car and a much better value than a BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, etc... Korea is the 6th largest manufacture of cars and have to date the most advanced manufacturing facility in the world.

    Americans are easily influenced by commercials and quite honestly far behind in many products available to the public. Take the cell phone; I recently watched an advertisement for a phone that does TV, which has been overseas for a long time, just now coming to the U.S. The phones overseas are much nicer than here also, even American brands such as Motorola sells nicer phones overseas than here.

    The fact is we are getting our butts kicked like never before but unless you actually get out of this little world you live in within these boarders you would never know that.

    I am not Anti-American, I am a proud American who is realistic and have seen what other countries have to offer and I can tell you from my perspective we are behind just about every country I mentioned except Russia and Peru in so many ways that if I even mentioned 1/100 of them I would need to be in a political forum.

    Bottom line, Hyundai is a solid deal in quality, quantity and safety and quite frankly is a better deal than any of those other brands I have or am driving.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_automobile
  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    "#180 of 238 Re: Paisan [nycdc911] by snakeweasel Apr 13, 2007 (5:29 am)
    Bookmark | Reply | E-mail Msg

    ...IIRC the W8 passat fully loaded was well north of 49 grand, thats a lot for a car with basically 2 v4 engines attached to it. That had a lot to do with the demise of the W8. Plus it was a WV Passat. "

    In the post above you said the W8 Passat was well north of 49 grand, but it actually cost $37,900 fully loaded like the Hyundai Genesis, and bombed like the Phaeton because nobody was willing to pay that much for a VW.

    Also, Mazda's Millenia started at $31,000 in 99 after it was forced to slash $4000 off the MSRP due to slow sales 4 years after its introduction, and nobody bought it at either price because it wasn't a luxury brand.

    By contrast, Lexus' LS400 debuted at $35,000 in 89 and sold for $50,000 in 94 because the new luxury brand was a huge success and it wasn't just an expensive Toyota.

    Instead of having to cut prices because nobody wants to pay $35,000 for a Hyundai, starting a new luxury division like Lexus could lead to increasing prices to $50,000 and 3-4 times as much net profit per car.

    If Hyundai starts a new luxury brand for Genesis, 15,000 luxury owners and 15,000 economy owners moving up could buy the new car.

    Calling it a Hyundai, none of the luxury buyers would be interested, and many of the economy owners moving up want to actually move up to a real luxury brand instead of moving down to a Hyundai which is known for making the cheapest cars available. So only 10,000 would be sold, prices would be slashed, and the car discontinued.

    Not only would Hyundai sell 3 times as many cars by starting a luxury brand, they could make 3-4 times as much money per car in a few years, and make 10 times as much money as they could by calling the Genesis a Hyundai.

    Young rich people are way too image conscious to be caught dead in a Hyundai, and old rich people wouldn't even know a Hyundai Genesis existed. Nobody knew the W8 Passat existed, it wasn't in any comparison tests with lux cars or mentioned in car magazines. A Hyundai Genesis would be ignored and fail, but starting a luxury brand with a catchy and ambitious name like Genesis would generate huge buzz and sales, pay huge dividends immediately and could eventually catapult Hyundai into the world's #1 carmaker.

    Kia Motors should be the name of Kia/Genesis after excess Hyundai/Kia models that compete against each other are phased out over the next few years. The Hyundai name is too similar to Honda and so is the logo which looks like a roadkill Honda logo. Hyundai sounds unpleasant in western languages just like Equus or the Ssangyong Wz, another Korean car which could rival the Genesis if it changes the name of the company and model.

    Bottom line is Hyundai doesn't want to make 1/10 as much money as they could make with the Genesis, and that's why they're planning a luxury division. They could start with this Genesis M midsize sedan and X rebadged Veracruz SUV, then add S small sedan, L large sedan, C hardtop convertible/coupe, and V crossover minivan/Portico.
  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=37826&vf=12

    "Genesis of a new Hyundai
    Glenn Butler, drive.com.au, 13/04/07

    Korea’s best-selling brand explores the potential for a luxury offshoot, reports GLENN BUTLER and IAN PORTER.

    Hyundai Genesis Concept
    Hyundai’s global aspirations know no bounds, as concept Genesis shows. Genesis, as we know, means birth or “coming into being”, and this concept is likely to spawn the birth of Hyundai’s as-yet unnamed luxury offshoot brand – think Lexus is to Toyota as concept Genesis would be to Hyundai.

    This rear-wheel drive, V8-powered concept sedan is eye-catching in the metal, and will be released in production form next year initially in left-hand-drive markets, is designed to demonstrate Hyundai’s rapidly growing design ability. With a 4.6-litre V8 under the bonnet, the rear-wheel-drive Genesis is pitched at competitive sports sedans like the Lexus GS, BMW 5-Series and Audi A6.

    While the idea of a luxury sports sedan from Hyundai may surprise, the company believes its consistently good results in US and European quality surveys will underpin its entry. Hyundai recently came third in the US JD Power quality survey, ahead of many respected brands, while in Germany a survey by Auto Zeitung magazine found Hyundai cars had the fewest breakdowns of any marque."
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    Re. nycdc911....you have way to much time on your hands.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Posts: 1,190
    Just recall that Hyundai has not added back to the Azera US model many of the features that were eliminated from the Korean version, such as Navigation, smart key, lazar cruise control, tilt in reverse side view mirrors etc.
    They also have not corrected some of the simple issues such as the requirement to have key in ignition to operate memory seats and including the power pedals into the memory function.
    Before jumping into a new, even more high tech, model they should complete the Azera project.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,603
    In the post above you said the W8 Passat was well north of 49 grand,

    Sorry it was a typo it should have been 40 ( a fat finger mistake as the 9 and 0 are next to each other and why use such a odd number for an approximation, you should be smart enough to figure that one out).

    but it actually cost $37,900 fully loaded

    Fully loaded it was over 40K as I saw one in at the dealership where I bought my car.

    bombed like the Phaeton because nobody was willing to pay that much for a VW.

    I will type this very slowly so you can understand this. The Phaeton started at more than twice what the Genesis will start at. A top of the line Genesis fully loaded will come in 10's of thousands less than the Phaeton, so you cannot use the Phaeton as an example.

    Also, Mazda's Millenia

    Someone else was using that as an example so I will let that one go.

    Instead of having to cut prices because nobody wants to pay $35,000 for a Hyundai, starting a new luxury division like Lexus could lead to increasing prices to $50,000 and 3-4 times as much net profit per car.

    Here you say that no one wants to pay 35K for a Hyundai but then you say they can sell the same Hyundai for $50K. That doesn't make sense.

    But lets look at it this way, increasing the price to $50K means fewer cars sold (even if it is luxury nameplate) so while they make more profit per car, they sell fewer cars. Tell me if Toyota took the Lexus IS 250 and rebadged it as a toyota and sold it for 10% less don't you think they would sell a lot more?

    Calling it a Hyundai, none of the luxury buyers would be interested,

    Again I will type this slowly so that you will understand. It is apparent that Hyundai is not interested in the current crop of luxury car buyers but those who would like something more but don't want to spend 10 grand or more to get it.

    Young rich people are way too image conscious to be caught dead in a Hyundai,

    I know at least one young rich person who drive an Azera and another young rich person who drives an Accent. Image conscious people are just snobs, not all rich people, young or old are snobs.

    and old rich people wouldn't even know a Hyundai Genesis existed.

    How would you know? The car isn't out yet no one knows who will know its out or not. I would suspect that when the Genesis comes out older rich people would know about it. There is something in this world called advertising.

    Nobody knew the W8 Passat existed,

    Just because VW didn't market the W8 Passat doesn't mean that Hyundai will not market the Genesis.

    A Hyundai Genesis would be ignored and fail,

    And just how accurate is your crystal ball?

    If a Hyundai Genesis will be ignored (from what I am seeing now it certainly isn't being ignored) then wouldn't a luxury nameplate also be ignored?

    but starting a luxury brand with a catchy and ambitious name like Genesis would generate huge buzz and sales,

    But right now just having a Hyundai Genesis is creating a buzz. And there is no guarantee that introducing a luxury nameplate will be sucessfull (Sterling).

    and could eventually catapult Hyundai into the world's #1 carmaker.

    I would think that they have a good shot at that now as they have already climbed to #5.

    The Hyundai name is too similar to Honda

    So? I guess you will be writing to BF Goodrich to tell them to change their name because its to similar to Goodyear.

    Hyundai sounds unpleasant in western languages

    Thats subjective and many would disagree with you.

    Bottom line is Hyundai doesn't want to make 1/10 as much money as they could make with the Genesis,

    there is no guarantee that they will make more money selling it as a luxury nameplate, and a strong argument can be made that they can make more selling it as a Hyundai.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    The points in my posts that you failed to address is why you have no argument. And I should have said that instead of making 10 times as much money with a luxury brand, Hyundai/Genesis could make 20 times as much money as just calling it a Hyundai. That's because Mazda had to slash $4000 off the price of the Millenia making it $32,000 and cutting net profit per car in half or less. While Lexus increased the price of LS400 from $35,000 to $50,000, potentially increasing net profit per car 3-4 times. So with a luxury division, 6-8 times the profit per car and 3 times as many sold, is approximately 20 times the profit of just calling it a Hyundai. Corporations would rather not make 1/20 the profit that they should be making with a car, which is why Hyundai is planning a luxury division.

    Sterling is a worthless comparison, it was British and a rebadged Rover V6 which had failed miserably in America a few years before, with terrible build quality (like all british/european cars) and feeble performance according to wiki. If Jaguars and especially Rovers don't sell, why would Sterling? Based on the excitement of a new brand, it still sold 15,000 its first year but was just a horrible car at the bottom of the JD Power ratings and the specs couldn't compete. The Genesis is the opposite, a fantastic car with unbelievable specs and performance for the price and guaranteed topnotch reliability. Obviously Lexus is a much better comparison, LS400 and Genesis were/are both Asian V8 RWD $35,000 cars that cost $20,000 less than the competition and from companies with top reliability scores, identical twins.

    Mazda Millenia, W8 Passat, and Phaeton, all got top reviews but failed miserably because nobody wanted to pay luxury prices for an economy brand, and Hyundai's brand rep is even worse - bargain basement.

    Hyundai has told advertisers to expect a new premium brand name before 2010. Sooner the better since the Hyundai name has one of the worst reputations in America and a reputation for making cheap cars:

    http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/2007/04/new_luxury_bran.html

    " April 03, 2007
    New Luxury Brand Name from Hyundai?
    It seems that Hyundai is serious about building a new premium brand to sell alongside its own marquee, reports Noah Joseph at Autoblog. The recent introduction of the Genesis concept car seems to be a sign of things to come.

    This, of course, is similar to Toyota creating the premium Lexus brand name expanding its brand architecture, just as Nissan accomplished with Infiniti and Honda with Acura.

    I think what we're really seeing here is the beginning of a shift in consumers' perceived quality of the Hyundai brand. For some time, the Hyundai name has lived on the fringe and was associated with economy. Taking cues from the formula Toyota and Honda made successful, I think this is the right direction for Hyundai. The difference? They're doing it much faster.

    Hyundai is well aware that there are incredible challenges in its way. First of all, it seems as if Hyundai has to give its dealers lessons in how to sell luxury cars as opposed to “value” cars. And an article in the Washington Post points out that Hyundai has a long way to go in the U.S., where its cars are still considered “cheap."

    It also does not help that Chung Mong Koo, the company’s chairman, was caught embezzling the equivalent of $73.8 million from the company.

    Nevertheless, Hyundai has pitted its Veracruz vs. the Lexus RX350 and their overall product line keeps getting kudus for its quality, not least from JD power and Associates, who ranked the brand third in the U.S. for overall quality. On the other hand, the same company put Hyundai among the 7 car brand names (Jaguar, Jeep, Hyundai, Kia, Land Rover, Saab and Suzuki) with the worst reputations in the business among consumers last year.

    Hyundai is the official vehicle of the 2010 Soccer World Cup in South Africa and I can say with confidence that the advertisers there have been told to expect a new high-end premium brand name from Hyundai. This will be a huge platform on which to launch a super-premium brand for Hyundai."

    And it was a speaker of several western languages that said on this thread that Hyundai sounded unpleasant in all of them, and everyone can agree the smushed Honda logo is ridiculous as well. A brand expert singled out Hyundai for having perhaps the worst brand name in America and said it succeeded because of cheap prices despite it's dreadful name, until this year when its huge sales growth each year came to a complete halt like a Ferrari Enzo smashing into a brick wall. An ideal brand name like Kia or Genesis should have several of these characteristics: 1 short, 2 simple, 3 suggestive, 4, unique, 5 alliterative, 6 speakable, 7 spellable, 8 shocking, 9 personalized:

    http://ries.typepad.com/ries_blog/2004/09/what_makes_a_go.html

    "The 9 keys to naming success.
    The single most important marketing decision a company can make it what to name a brand. A brand’s power lies in its ability to grab a position in the mind of the consumer. With a poor brand name you make the job of getting into the mind that much harder. With a great brand name you can help your brand down the road to success.

    It’s not that a brand with a poor name won’t ever succeed. Many do. If you price something cheap enough, it will move in spite of a dreadful name. Hyundai, for example, sold 400,221 vehicles in the U.S. last year. But did you ever hear someone say, “Eat your heart out, I just got myself a 2004 Hyundai?” Is Hyundai a powerful brand? I think not."
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Have to disagree with you thur. HYUNDAI is a very powerful brand!

    Everybody knows what a HYUNDAI is. The brand is synonynmous with economy or low cost. They have built a strong brand, but now want to change the brand itself.

    I would not work to undo the last 2 decades of work, and start fresh with a new brand. Unless you are saying you don't like your own brand, and you've wasted the last 2 decades. :confuse:

    If you built one somewhat successful brand, why not build another one?

    Wal-Mart and Neiman Marcus aren't striking any marketing/location deals. I wonder why?

    This conundrum is not for the logical I suppose. Maybe the Board of Directors have a female majority?

    If they're really serious about going luxury, than go luxury. Don't be half-a%$. Know your market.

    I drive a Mini.

    I drive a Mazda3.

    Same price, big difference. Americans are brand-conscious. Don't fight it. Accept it. Be smart.

    You can't sell anything unless you know your market. Don't bring up Lexus if you won't learn from Toyota. Peace! ;)

    DrFill
  • nycdc911nycdc911 Posts: 27
    No new name, just Kia Motors with the Genesis division. Kia is a much better name than Hyundai and about as well known with more history as Korea's first car company. Hyundai sounds worse and has a cheap and bad reputation among Americans. When Datsun changed to Nissan, it had record sales the 2 years after and there wasn't even anything wrong with Datsun. Hyundai and Kia compete against each other by selling the same cars for the same narrow low price range. Kia is not even the lower priced brand because a Hyundai Accent is the cheapest of either brand and a Kia Amanti is the same price as Hyundai's current top sedan Azera. Excess models should be phased out to maximize profits and efficiency, then Kia Motors with the Genesis division should be the name for the best cars that are left.

    GM and Ford/Mercury/Lincoln are failing because they also have too many models within their own companies competing against each other. Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, and Lexus/Toyota/Scion succeed because there are designated price points for each brand that don't overlap. Scion is tiny and almost irrelevant, a 3rd cheaper brand would be unnecessary for Kia/Genesis. Other successful car companies around the world don't have models competing against each other either.
  • 54gradsteds54gradsteds Posts: 102
    Thanks, sergio19! As for my plans, I believe I'll not wait the usual 10 years before buying another one, since I've been on the planet since 1936. When the Genesis appears, I'll give serious consideration to purchasing it, depending, of course, on how the present chariot holds up!
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,603
    The points in my posts that you failed to address is why you have no argument.

    I believe that I have addressed the relevant points that you made.

    And I should have said that instead of making 10 times as much money with a luxury brand, Hyundai/Genesis could make 20 times as much money as just calling it a Hyundai.

    While they will make more money per car the fact is they will sell fewer cars.

    That's because Mazda had to slash $4000 off the price of the Millenia making it $32,000 and cutting net profit per car in half or less.

    Of course the Millenia was a lower valued car that was posing as a higher end car. The opposite appears to be true for the Genesis.

    Sterling is a worthless comparison,

    Sterling is a perfect example. It was an attempt by one car company to start up a luxury brand. You keep bringing up history, this is part of history. Just because a car company creates a luxury badge doesn't mean that it will sell. And Sterling offered a lot for little money (at least in content, not sure on ride and handling since I never drove one).

    It seems you like to present history when it supports your position, but when historical evidence comes up that doesn't support your position it is worthless. Go figure.

    Mazda Millenia, W8 Passat, and Phaeton,

    While you claim my comparison with Sterling is worthless but you keep comparing the Genesis with a VW that ran between 65-100K+. Now thats a worthless comparison. not to mention the other examples.

    New Luxury Brand Name from Hyundai?

    I read the article and all it is is people guessing that Hyundai is creating a luxury brand. Do you have anything official from Hyundai to say that they are creating a luxury brand. It basically is "Hyundai is coming out with the genesis so it seems like they are creating a luxury nameplate". Thats is just speculation.

    This, of course, is similar to Toyota creating the premium Lexus brand name

    Except that we have nothing to go on but peoples speculation.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,603
    When Datsun changed to Nissan, it had record sales the 2 years after and there wasn't even anything wrong with Datsun.

    The reason they changed names is that it was always Nissan. They just picked a different name when they came into the US market in case they flopped. If they flopped Datsun not Nissan would be associated with the flop. When it turned out to be successful they went back to the original name.

    It was a pretty smart ideal overall.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    Guys, as much as you would like to spend hours and pages dissecting this companies decision and their next step into higher-end luxury automobiles, let's face something:

    Fact: Hyundai has passed very reputable companies like Honda and Nissan because of the vision and focus of their leadership to be a top-five automaker in the world.

    Fact: Hyundai has determined that the best way to do this is to follow the blueprint of Toyota.

    Fact: Hyundai has done it much faster than Toyota.

    Fact: Toyota has requested access to Hyundai plants! Hmmm. (Do you think Toyota thinks Hyundai is incompetent. I would guess they are very impressed and quite interested in learning something. Ask the average car buyer if the above statement was a reality and most would laugh. Most have no clue how much of a growing powerhouse this company is.

    Fact: Most here just can't face hard facts that Hyundai has overcome the past (perceived) issues and is in the upper echelon of car manufacterers. Just look at an Azera, Veracruz, Santa Fe, Sonata and you will see a company that easily competes with the top manufacturers. In a very short time Hyundai will simply build very good luxury cars.

    Fact: The next generation will not have your bias and will simply see Hyundai for who they are: a solid, reputable company that builds high-quality, very reliable cars.

    Fact: Many of you have a biased predisposition against this company that doesn't allign with reality. Hyundai is now #6 in the world. Their recent success is based on a very detailed plan to reach the top five in sales and to do it by entering multiple segments. Did you know that this plan was formulated just under a decade ago. They have faced numerous hurdles of late including the Chung scandal and the Korean Won inflation. The separation from the Hyundai Group, the purchase and integration of Kia and the expansion and integration of the 24/7 (7 new models in 24 mos) is complete.

    Fact: Hyundai is a major player. Ask GM's Bob Lutz who he fears. He didn't say 'Toyota' because Toyota hass already entered what Demming said was the 'quality world' of consumers. Toyota is now the premier automaker. But Lutz understands and said he feared Hyundai' because they are sitting at #6 with an incredible vision, the resources to continue to grow and a proven advancement in quality delivery.

    Fact: If you can't see what this company has accomplished and can't accept it, well, that is your limited understanding of the automotive big-picture. And we are all entitled to see what we want to see. But there is also reality and the reality is that Hyundai is a worldwide automotive force, who even outsold Honda and Nissan. I would dare say the odds are with them as they advance into the luxury segment.

    Fact: Hyundai will never know if it can succeed unless it enters this segment. I suppose Toyota would never have known either. We all know what happened there.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Before we make HYUNDAI the second coming, can they build a best-in-class vehicle first?

    This Genesis is far from a can't-miss, IMO.

    In America, the only market that matters (along with China), HYUNDAI is WAY BEHIND Honda and Nissan in sales, or brand equity. And they haven't even started opening a luxury channel yet.

    Count me as one of the people who doesn't see HYUNDAI as a Tier 1 manufacturer in the States.

    Again, they've had 2-3 good years.

    Working faster than Toyota is no achievement! Toyota takes there time, but they do it right.

    Elantra has taken a step back. Sonata is decent, but isn't scaring anyone. Tucson is no threat to Rav4 or CRV. The Sedona/Entourage, up until very recently, was primarily made of IRON! :surprise:

    I see a lot of ambition, but not a whole lot of talent, yet. Their recent Azera commercial (using the Lexus LS) is particularly wanting.

    Forgive me if I'm not impressed with their track record. They have a lot to prove, to me. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • Your flat out crazy about Kia having a better name, In Korea Hyundai is #1 in consumers minds in a landslide. All these posts again refer to America, overseas Hyundai is known for quality.
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