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Comments
They simply are not being let go of by current owners in any significant numbers. This site proves that point.
Thanks again for the link!
Use the drop down for any make you want on the site being discussed and watch how many listings appear. The seven listings you mention are obviously demo's being offered by dealers.
Seven demo's out of an national data base WOW that's a lot... get a grip.
And not to split hairs but a vehical is considered new if it has not been not titled
I would expect a discount on a demo but it is not "used".
The seven units you make mention of are obviously test drive dealer units from what what I can tell.
I get a few drops of water in my trunk in my '06 Azera, leak...hardly. A few random drips that fall from the edges of the trunk lid. A problem...are you serious? It's so funny that folks will take something so minor and make it seem like it's catastrophic!
this has certainly been talked about here - and probably in general agreement - except for those dyed in the wool 'H' guys. One comment - Nissan had a better name than Hyundai (although not nearly like Toyota's) when it originally followed the Lexus lead and certain cars became Infinitis. And, at the time, Nissan was not really in a terribly strong financial position to establish a new network of dealerships but they did it anyway.. Maybe because of this the 'G20' was nothing remarkable, the I35 simply a relabelled Maxima and the flagship 'Q' was not nearly as well received as the Lexus LS. This continued for several years, it wasn't until the reworked G35 and the last generation 'Ms' that Infinti's offerings became anything to brag about - the 'Q', of course, remains the step child that it pretty much has always been.
The Infiniti I think remains a step below a Lexus in most peoples eyes, but it did definitely provide Nissan an entree to the luxury car market and Infiniti is improving - from a perception standpoint.
Hyundai seems to want to ignore all this, doesn't seem to understand exactly why it is that many buyers of their premium priced products seem want to 'rebadge' them or simply won't be caught dead at a Hyundai dealership in the first place.
Between the Azera, the Veracruz, and of course the Genesis Hyundai does have a basis for something new and different, but my personal feeling is that any success that Hyundai might have selling higher priced models is going to be seriously limited by the brand name and the general character of the dealers that sell them. People, as shallow as it may be, do buy brands and are concerned about others think - even if the Genesis approached the quality/sophistication of those German sedans that Hyundai would like us to believe it is comparable to - who's going to care? - it's still a Hyundai.
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Where are all the hundreds of photos of people showing off their new Korean market badges? Or are a few online posts about rebadging being spun into "many buyers..."? Maybe some buyers think the Korean market Genesis emblem looks a lot cooler than the "H" logo.
"People, as shallow as it may be, do buy brands and are concerned about others think"
Somebody buying a $30,000 to $40,000 Avalon or Maxima is not looking for
brand prestige. They just see a nice car they can afford, and they buy it. Many buyers in this price range will be looking at the Genesis.
"...but my personal feeling is that any success that Hyundai might have selling higher priced models is going to be seriously limited by the brand name and the general character of the dealers that sell them."
I guess only time will tell. In the meantime - and I hate to break this to some of you - but this online "speculating" by consumers is not going to affect the outcome one way or another. One would be delusional to think otherwise.
Of course the jury is out on the viability of the current strategy. My initial take was to go the route of Lexus, Infiniti and Acura as they had a "proven" strategy. But the more I think about it, maybe Hyundai is building the better mousetrap. So far, sales figures thru November seem to say so: the Genesis has outsold the Lexus GS, Audi A/6, Acura RL and closing in on the Infiniti M.
brand prestige
not so sure about that - the Avalon especially and the Maxima perhaps a bit less so BOTH carry quite a bit more 'prestige' and 'image'- as illustrated by higher initial prices (%of MSRP) both generally command , and definitely higher resale value than the 'comparable' Azera, for example.. And it really is because this is a Toyota or is a Nissan and NOT because any of these cars is necessarily a whole bunch better than the other. Granted not nearly the 'prestige' (or the cost) of that German sedan, or that high end Lexus/Infiniti, but certainly more than any Hyundai product. Hyundais are more likely to be bought because of their real and perceived value and NOT usually to impress anybody.
Tell somebody you just wrote a check for 30 something for an Avalon, you will get a reassuring nod because that person probably knows that it is the best that Toyota makes and that yes they can cost even more than that, tell them that you spent $25+ on any Hyundai and the reaction is more likely' 'I didn't know that Korean cars could cost that much'.
On the other hand, I am (actually) the owner of a modest $22,000 Hyundai, and have had no issues other than faulty sun visors and an accelerator pedal position sensor, both replaced under warranty. My Hyundai dealer has given me exceptionally good service - no hassling with warranty coverage, and each of the above-mentioned issues were fixed within 1 hour of arriving at the service department. All while I put their gourmet espresso machine to good use.
If I were ready to move up to a nicer car, and spend $30,000 to $35,000, would I consider a 3.8L Genesis? Absolutely - based on my current and past experiences with Hyundai. Would I also look at a Maxima, G35, Passat, and TL? Absolutely.
However, not selling the Genesis as a stand-alone-dealership I believe will be a mistake. The Hyundai dealers are not known for dealing with people that can afford a $40,000.00 plus car. It's the opposite, those who look towards Hyundai are buyers that need help getting in to a car because of credit, lack of down payment etc.
I know this is a gross generalization, and it doesn't apply to the Sonata buyer generally.
You look at the very expensive (for Hyundai) like the Veracruz and the volume just isn't there.
I know a dealer that installs that ugly black matte plastic on the door edges on every car and calls it a "protection pkg." And then charges (or tries too) a couple of hundred dollars.
That is what your dealing with.
That is what your dealing with."
Ok, you know [a dealer] that does this. To suggest that this applies to all (or most) dealers is a gross generalization.
"The Hyundai dealers are not known for dealing with people that can afford a $40,000.00 plus car."
And most people who walk into a Toyota dealership are looking to spend around $20,000 to $25,000, on average. Does this mean Toyota should give up trying to sell $35,000 to $40,000 vehicles? Avalons and FJ Cruisers are only a very small fraction of Toyota's annual sales in North America. Does that mean those 2 models are failures?
One big question I have at this point: Why are we talking about a brand in general, instead of the particular model that this discussion thread is supposed to be about? I thought car enthusiasts like to talk about cars they own, or cars they'd like to own. Why even bother wasting time talking about Hyundai if it's such a lowly, insignificant company to begin with?
Interesting. Very interesting.
Trust me when I say this, the Genesis has been a very good thing for the Hyundai brand; actually, it has been a very good thing for the Hyundai brand. Think of how Hyundai has improved itself over the last decade or so, the Genesis sedan and coupe is another chapter Hyundai makes its mark.
No, but then you are presenting few facts here, e.g. your generalization that almost all of Hyundai's cars have unrefined, noisy and misbehaving suspensions.
You are forgetting the "fact" that Hyundai has been lauded in the press for the design of the Genesis' suspension. Does the Genesis have the world's finest suspension, without room for improvement? I doubt it. But not "modern"?? C/D would disagree with you on that. Or that the Azera has "UNBELIEVABLE" bobbing and porpoising on even a smooth highway--which BTW I did not notice during my time in an Azera, even on a not-smooth highway? Or that the Veracruz has such a terrible suspension that it beat out the RX in a head-to-head comparo by Motor Trend. (Maybe they ignored how the Veracruz rides and handles?) They also must have ignored how the Sonata rides and handles when they voted it the 2nd best mid-sized car out of 10 tested, only behind the Passat.
As for CR, yes, they think Hyundais have such poor suspensions that they recently rated the Santa Fe the #1 choice for SUVs and the Elantra SE the #1 choice for small cars. They also recently ranked the Sonata ahead of most mid-sized cars in their tests. One of those was the new Mazda6. Just think how bad the suspensions of those lower-ranked cars must be!
It's also funny I think that you blast Hyundai for not having "modern" suspensions when it offers much more sophisticated suspensions on some of its models than its main competitors do, e.g. four-wheel independent suspensions vs. beam rear axles.
No, you can't change facts. But you can consider a broader range of facts when making an informed opinion about cars like the Genesis.
'Tis the season - perhaps we can remember to be a little nicer to each other? There's some punch and cake on the table over there in the corner. Help yourself! But don't drink too much punch if you don't have a designated driver!
We are in the hunt to replace wifes '05 Lexus ES. Wonderful car. She previously had an '02 Avalon and she loved that car also.
Prior to the Lexus purchase we drove a Maxima, Acura TL and others. I was all over the TL but she felt both "rode too hard and are noisy". You get the idea....she wants QUIET and SOFT RIDE. I drive Vettes so you can see we differ greatly on what we want in a car. Gotta admit, the Lexus is an awesome interstate cruiser and thankfully I get to drive the Lexus during the winter. Yup, she needles me to no end about buying a 60k car "that you can't even drive in the winter".
Anyway, this fall she wanted to drive the Lexus RX (cute); the Accord and the new Maxima. We did. Yup, they were not quiet enough and rode rough. I knew that from the beginning but.......
Saw the sneak peek pic of the new Genesis in Car and Driver last winter, looked great so we drove one this fall. Impressed to say the least. Quiet, rode great but the price was firm at sticker, 36k. A similarily equipped ES was about 38k but with a 4k discount.
Now seeing discounts on the Genesis and the V6 with Tech stickers at 40k. Appears I can pick one up for somewhere between 36-37k. A similarily equipped ES would sticker at about 42k (buy at about 38k) but not include the rear camera, HID's etc., so content-wise, the Genesis wins.
Have private party interest in our Lexus so it may soon become decision time. I'm leaning to the Genesis, wife doesn't care as she liked both but has a certain amount of loyalty to Lexus.
Biggest concern (and I don't recall it being discussed) is the historical resale value of the brand name Hyundai. Not good! Will the Genesis change that? Beats me and I wish they would have gone to seperate stores like Toyota and Nissan did with the intro of the '89 LS400 and Q45. Suspect their bean counters know better that I but realize the expense of doing so would be huge $$$. Time will tell if this was a good/bad decision.
Don't know if I have presented any germane questions but any thoughts out there will be appreciated.
As to our host "Pat"....can you pass some of that punch over the internet to me?? I'm at home and hereby designate myself as driver.
Cheers to all.
but if I have to choose between Lexus ES and Genesis then I would take GENESIS no questions, hands down, no comparisons, etc. etc.....
Yes allmet its Sanjay saying he will take GENESIS over lexus ES
But in that price range I would also look at Lexus GS, Infiniti M, and A6. There are good deals to be had on these specially A6 and M.
Whatever you buy... this is the great time
I have almost 13,000 miles on the car and I have been posting my impressions every few thousand miles. I like most things about it but I can't muster up any enthusiasm today or ever again until they get it fixed enough not to leave me anticipating being stranded fairly often. If any of you are experiencing the battery-drain problem and want to compare notes, you can pull up my previous posts.
There must be a drain on the battery. No way should any car die in 3 days. My '06 Avalon which is everybit as computerized as the Genesis has sat in the airport parking lot for 2 1/2 weeks in the dead of winter and starts right up. My 99 S10 also sits for 3 weeks without problem as well. Keep complaining to the dealer and/or get another dealer involved. The only thing that I may suggest is that you mentioned you park in your garage, do you leave your keys in the car? Maybe the "smart key" system is draining the battery because it is in close proximity and constantly active thinking you are sitting in the car ready to start it.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Since I have read several instances of the battery drain, I don't know if it's a problem inherent in the electrical system, or if there's a defect of some kind.
I have linked below some references to it in the Azera forums. Most have a hard time identifying the problem. One Hyundai expert found a missing rubber bumper from the hood that pressed a switch which activated the theft system. If left unactivated, other components remained on and slowly drained the battery. Maybe the Genesis problem is also linked to that defect. Maybe not.
Azera dead battery
Azera battery fix
Comparing it to the Lexus ES really is unfair, if you had said you would take it over the GS...I'd be more impressed. One thing I trluy dig about the Genesis is that you can burn regular gas in it, the others are premium fuel only. Granted, gas prices have fallen, but...we see how much hurt it put on folks when it spiked. Another issue is maintenance costs...every other car you've mentioned from Lexus, Infiniti and Audi are very costly in the maintenance dept. In comparison to the rest of the Hyundai line-up, it could be more costly, but compared to the premium brands...maybe quite less. Can't really speak on that with confidence, but it would seem to make sense.
I've had my Azera for almost 3 years now and the single most expensive maintenance cost I've paid is $125 for the transmission flush. Other than that, it's only been oil changes ($35 for oil & filter x 8 = $280), brake pads (2 sets = $135) and wiper blades (2 sets @ $40/set = $80), oh...and I replaced the OEM battery for $75...a grand total of $615 covering 2.8 years & 63K miles.
IBut I do agree that folks that would be worried about spending 20 cents+ extra or so per gallon would be precisely those that might consider the Genesis seriously.
However, the point would still be that the Genesis would be a better value than any of the Lexus cars from V-6 to V-8 models.
Personally, when the new LS hit the streets I fell in love with it. It's a very sexy car (to me at least), however...seeing the Genesis, while maybe not quite as sexy as the LS, it's still very eye catching AND I can save $30K to boot?
really - sit in the back seat of an LS then go sit in a GS. Given that both pay the price of the relatively space inefficient RWD layout..
'Value' has never been a problem for the Korean car mfgrs , perception is
Perception is something that will change over time if they keep on their current path. One thing I've found is that most folks that have something negative to say about Hyundai vehicles in general, haven't even been in one...they go based on what they've heared. I personally know a few folks that used to talk about how bad Hyundai was, but when they saw my Sonata and my current Azera, they raised their eyebrows. Now that they've seen the Genesis and actually test driven one...oh, they have definitely changed their tune.
I will say this much, if you have never been in one, driving a current Hyundai may not make you buy one, but...it will certainly give you a different perspective of what their vehicles are about if you previously had a negative image about them.
I have driven the Azera and thought it was a rather remarkable achievement, but tempered that judgement by subpar FE and a marshmallow soft (seemingly sloppy)suspension - and I drive an Avalon as you know (albeit the Touring model) of all things. The Sonata V6 same 'problem' although not as 'soft' as the non-SE Camrys and a too cheap interior. Not that I blame Hyundai ('soft' sells in this country) but from a lot of what I read - suspension tuning/sophistication perhaps not quite in Hyundai's bag of tricks yet....
It is possible to have a well controlled and 'soft/pleasant ' ride - all at the same time - they call them BMWs, MBs, amd FTM LSs.
I'm sure Hyundai will eventually get the memo on the tuning of the suspensions and do something about it to make it a better fit. Honestly, I think the Genesis could use a sport tuned suspension because the car really makes you wanna DRIVE it from the moment you step on the gas pedal.
The interior differences between the Genesis/LS and the GS...are merely .5" here, 1.25" there and 2" somewhere else, however...when it comes to pricing, the GS is closest in terms of what you pay vs. what you get. Heck, even the base ES starts out costing more than the base Genesis V-6. I think the Genesis vs. GS comparo was good in some aspects, but not so good in others. I mean...they could have compared the Genesis 3.8 to the GS-350 and the Genesis 4.6 to the GS-460 and done very well. Granted, the Genesis 3.8 won't turn in the performance numbers of the GS-350, but it won't be that far off.
In essence, the Genesis gives you close to the size of the LS, with the features and amenities of the GS with a price that would net you an ES.
They may not be able to offer you exactly what MB, BMW, Lexus or Infinity can offer in terms of intangibles, but...when one can save anywhere from $7-30K (depending on what models you compare to the Genesis), the level of luxury you can get with the Genesis really does have quite an appeal to it.
Read the latest issue of Consumer Reports.
Perhaps their write up will help you decide whether or not you care
for the Genesis compared to some others that were tested. :confuse:
again you talk about 'luxury' as if it was some defining collection of doodads - something that I have issues with - I mean what is it then that you can get on a Genesis that is not available on an appropriate Azera, Avalon, or even going lower a Grand Marquis. We've certainly been thru this all before, but a true luxury car has little to do with optional or even standard equipment, performance specs etc because it too is a perception.
Yes - that BMW does come with lots and lots of your precious doodads (hell, the Genesis may actually have more of them), but none of that has anything to do with one being a true 'luxury' sedan, the other not.
So please, stop trying to speak for me.
now you're getting closer and, just like I said a perception, because those same surfaces and those same sensory appeals can be found on your Azera, my Avalon etc. etc. it's all a question of our individual predispositions - in this case. In other words, if you think you are about to experience some sort of automotive nirvana - it will likely be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Another example of this might be the MKS, another Ford rebadging effort with lots of doodads to be sure, and even with a brand name that most people still agree means luxury, but is it? I would contend to you that no it isn't simply because it is so closely related to the Ford 500 it came from - and if you are buying a Ford you can't buy a luxury car - just like if you buy a Hyundai you can't buy a luxury car either. Nothing specifically negative (or positive) about the car itself, only those nasty perceptions....
You haven't spent time in a Genesis, have you? If you have, you wouldn't be making that statement. I own an Azera and I cross shoped the Avalon and no...the surfaces do not feel the same in the Genesis compared to the other two. Nor does the feel of the cabin. Sorry, Captain...it's the truth. And no, it's not an expectation of automotive nirvana, it's about feeling pretty doggone nice sitting in it. A level of nice that's above that feeling one gets from sitting in the Azera, Avalon or Maxima.
Going from my Azera into the Genesis...night and day. Going from my Azera into the Avalon...sorta like going from one room in my house to another. Different look, same feel. I base my statements off of actually spending time in the vehicles I'm talking about. Before you actually say something one way or other...do the same thing so you can at least know what you're talking about.
If you reach out and touch the dash of the Genesis, it has the pliable, pebble texture of the higher end cars. The Azera has the pebbled hard plastic with no pliability upon touch and from my recollection...neither did the Avalon. The touch of the controls has a nice feel, not that common everyday feel you get in cars like the Azera, Avalon & Maxima. It's just something that makes it feel a notch above.
Would you please stop with the BS and trying to convince people that you can't buy a luxury car from Hyundai. As much as you care not to admit or accept the fact...it's a reality
By the way...have you sat in a Ford Taurus and then turned around and sat in the MKS? I didn't think so...I think if you did you would be greatly surprised to see there's a huge difference in the impact. It's just so sad that you believe luxury cars can only come from Europe or Japan. The world grows smaller on a daily basis and because of that, the playing field gets more and more level.
BINGO - you nailed it. Captain has stated that he indeed has never test driven the Genesis. I'm amazed that he continues to argue anything when he hasn't seen this car.
no, the CTS and STS are the only remaining 'American' luxury cars IMO, the DTS and the Escalade definitely are not. Lincoln since it no longer makes anything unique doesn't pass muster anymore, the Genesis blew it's chance to be a 'luxury' anything when the decision was made to try to sell it at Hyundai dealers.
If 'Genesis' was a brand, marketed independently, the first Genesis car, as we now know it, might easily have become a new entrant in the luxury car ranks. Kind of shallow, these perceptions, aren't they?