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Have you taken a look at the MKS and the upcoming MKT...please tell me where you see anything like them on the road in any other part of the world...please!
The only perception that is shallow is yours. You keep refering back to the dealers, which I will admit and concur that the dealership network could be a major hurdle for the Genesis. However, the sedan itself, no matter how you want to look it...IS a luxury sedan.
Even when the ES was nothing more than a glorified Camry, it was still considered luxury. The Infinity I30 was nothing more than a luxo-version of the Maxima and it was still accepted as a luxury sedan. The Genesis is not based on anything else, it is it's own animal.
Just admit the fact that it kills you that Hyundai had the audacity to create and bring to market a luxury sedan that could be more widely accessible than the flagship offerings from any of the premium brands. In your world, I'm sure this is truly tragic.
Because the Gen has it's own class "Bargain Luxury", entry-level luxury may apply, but that's usually smaller cars such as BMW3, Infinity G, Lexus IS, etc. And although they're all great cars they're not a bargain. Not sure where else you'd place the vehicle~how 'bout "entry level large bargain luxury" :confuse:
Well...pretty soon, the Genesis will have a brother on the market. Kia will be bringing their version based on the next generation Azera platform. So far it's called the VG.
It probably would have some name other than Amanti - VG is the codename used internally.
Here's a spy shot of one being tested...notice the Genesis wheels!
almost certainly, the only difference being that BMW/MB and the like have no interest is being any kind of value leader, they simply want to be the best
The funny thing here is...if you were to go over to Europe, they treat MB's and BMW's just like we treat the Avalon, Maxima, Azera, Camry and Accord...like everyday cars that aren't that special. Just because Hyundai may be a value based company when it comes to the auto industry, that doesn't mean they don't strive to be the best. If that's the case, they wouldn't bother with making the strides they've made.
Here's the kicker though...if you were presented a Genesis with no badging to indicate that it was made by Hyundai, you would have no problems saying and accepting the car as a luxury sedan. You have qualified that repeatedly by saying that it's not a luxury car because of the italic "H" on the trunk. Bottom line is...the car itself (which is what we've been discussing) IS a luxury sedan...it just happens to be made by a non-luxury company.
You know...I've come to the realization that Hyundai isn't for those stuck in their preconceived ways of how things should be. Hyundai is as progressive a company as you can find and put an exclamation point on that by creating the Genesis and marketing under the Hyundai brand. As hard as it is for you to accept, it would seem that there are quite a few premium car owners that buy into it as well as witnessed by those that have traded BMW's, MB's, Lexus & Infiniti's in for a Genesis, or the ones that were shopping the mid-level premium sedans adding the Genesis to their shopping list, and even the ones that initially wanted a GS, M, E-Class or 5-Series actually buying a Genesis because they get a high level of luxury compared to the price they would have paid for the premium sedan. The savings coupled with what the Genesis offers as a car must be enough to sway those folks. Heck...Hyundai is doing something right if the Genesis sales are keeping up with the premium sedans that it compares to...don't ya think?
This is a truly ignorant statement. Rolls Royca and Lambo don't have any interest in being a value leader. BMW and MB have a huge commitment to being a value leader. The 1 and 3 series and C-Class are a testament to that and they directly compete against this Hyundai.
yep - and in Hong Kong - MBs are - taxicabs
to quote a poster 'bodad' on the 'is there room for Hyundai' forum and in response to questions about what a luxury car is, a nice summary:
"'A. To some, it's a car that most people can't afford.
B. To some, it's a car that has top of the line quality, comfort, power, and features
C. To some, it's a car with an exclusive luxury badge regardless of price or quality. "
Choice B would be for those doodad freaks that feel a luxurious car and a luxury car are the same thing - Choice C for all the 'brand snobs' out there., Choice A is interesting as it implies (and requires) a certain level of exclusivity. But, in any case, the Genesis comes up Aces in one of the 3 qualifications and fails in the other two.
Give me an appropriately butt kissing 'Genesis' dealer., a price perhaps $10k or $15k MORE than what it is, then I give you a true luxury car, that appears to need nothing more than some suspension tuning and refinement to be truly competitive to those German and Japanese cars that Hyundai would like to to be.
the 1, 3 and C are all 'entry level', only a means to get more American butts in their productss and compete with something like a Genesis only in their price.
Have you ever driven a 135 - perhaps THE definition of what a 'sports sedan' should be', and it is tiny and anything but luxurious - quite the opposite of the Genesis. Although I'm sure there are a few exceptions, I sincerely doubt that anybody in Bavaria or Stuttgart is really giving the Genesis anything more than a passing glimpse.
This may indeed be a big mistake on their part, it was in 1989 when they dismissed the LS also pretty much out of context.
Nonetheless, the day that the buyer of the the big genuine luxury sedans like the A6/A8, the E and Ss, the GS and LSs, the 5s and 7s, the Ms etc. start flocking to the Hyundai dealer because they feel it is a better car (or at least a comparable one) is the day that the Genesis is competing with the 'big boys'.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh...but dear Captain, in your words...the 135 is automatically a luxury vehicle simply because it's made by BMW. So see...a luxury nameplate can make a car that doesn't even meet the standards of luxurious and it's okay, but a non-luxury nameplate making a luxury vehicle is impossible, right? LMAO
Keep trying.
Like I said...IF you were presented a Genesis with no way of knowing it was made by Hyundai, I guarantee you would be calling it a luxury sedan.
A BMW branded product can be 'luxury' with rollup windows - very few marques can make that claim. And no I could not tell you if any car was truly a luxury car WITHOUT knowing who made it.
So I'd guess the Genesis is too "cheap"
And let me see if I understood you correctly, anything under $50K is not considered to be a "true" luxury car? If that's your argument, then that would go against your other points.
Also, 90% of the owners come from other brands. In other words, first-time Hyundai owners.
You really believe that? Yeah, THE place to go to find a good preowned Bimmer, your local Hyundai used car lot! There are many many folks out there that are becoming first time Hyundai owners but I'll submit to you that they are trading in Chevys, Fords and even Toyotas and Hondas but very very few German cars. Just a guess , of course....
"We are still experiencing challenging times but believe that Hyundai remains exceptionally well positioned to confront these difficult market conditions," said Dave Zuchowski, Hyundai Motor America's vice president of national sales. "The Hyundai Holiday Sales event will continue to offer great deals for the month of December and we are proud of the fact that Accent is now the lowest priced and most dependable sub-compact car on the market."
All Hyundai vehicles sold in the U.S. are covered by The Hyundai Advantage, America's Best Warranty. Hyundai buyers are protected by a 10-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty, a 5-year/60,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty, a 7-year/unlimited-mile anti-perforation warranty and 5-year/unlimited-mile roadside assistance protection.
Hyundai Motor America, headquartered in Fountain Valley, Calif., is a subsidiary of Hyundai Motor Co. of Korea. Hyundai vehicles are distributed throughout the United States by Hyundai Motor America and are sold and serviced by more than 790 dealerships nationwide.
CARLINE NOV/2008 NOV/2007 CY/2008 CY/2007
ACCENT 1,983 2,238 48,598 34,110
SONATA 5,379 11,831 110,764 120,696
ELANTRA 3,268 3,340 92,085 81,967
TIBURON 411 727 8,699 13,472
SANTA FE 4,282 7,374 64,705 83,319
AZERA 316 1,575 14,114 20,351
TUCSON 918 3,107 18,153 38,514
ENTOURAGE 584 466 5,405 16,726
VERACRUZ 929 1,225 10,055 11,367
GENESIS 1,151 0 5,127 0
TOTAL 19,221 31,883 377,705 420,522
"We are still experiencing challenging times but believe that Hyundai remains exceptionally well positioned to confront these difficult market conditions," said Dave Zuchowski, Hyundai Motor America's vice president of national sales. "The Hyundai Holiday Sales event will continue to offer great deals for the month of December and we are proud of the fact that Accent is now the lowest priced and most dependable sub-compact car on the market."
All Hyundai vehicles sold in the U.S. are covered by The Hyundai Advantage, America's Best Warranty. Hyundai buyers are protected by a 10-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty, a 5-year/60,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty, a 7-year/unlimited-mile anti-perforation warranty and 5-year/unlimited-mile roadside assistance protection.
Hyundai Motor America, headquartered in Fountain Valley, Calif., is a subsidiary of Hyundai Motor Co. of Korea. Hyundai vehicles are distributed throughout the United States by Hyundai Motor America and are sold and serviced by more than 790 dealerships nationwide.
CARLINE NOV/2008 NOV/2007 CY/2008 CY/2007
ACCENT 1,983 2,238 48,598 34,110
SONATA 5,379 11,831 110,764 120,696
ELANTRA 3,268 3,340 92,085 81,967
TIBURON 411 727 8,699 13,472
SANTA FE 4,282 7,374 64,705 83,319
AZERA 316 1,575 14,114 20,351
TUCSON 918 3,107 18,153 38,514
ENTOURAGE 584 466 5,405 16,726
VERACRUZ 929 1,225 10,055 11,367
GENESIS 1,151 0 5,127 0
TOTAL 19,221 31,883 377,705 420,522
To answer some of the questions posed.....
Someone suggested I look at the GS, Infiniti M and A6 as a comparo. Done before. Before we bought our ES, my wife was all over the GS as it looked great to her. Drove one and she pretty much liked it but drove an ES right after that and the GS went out the window. Believe I mentioned she wanted a soft/quiet ride and the ES was her choice....good deal for me as it saved thousands of $$$. Infiniti?? Nope, too rough riding and not as quiet. You get the drift of all this. As to the Audi, no question, the interior is as fine as you can find and it looks good. However, my son had an A4 which spent more time at the dealership for warranty work than you can imagine so an Audi was out of the question.
Another poster mentioned FWD vs. RWD. Understand the benefits of FWD in snow country but I much prefer RWD and here in N. Illinois, we usually don't get that much snow...except for last year and so far this year! To me, that is not an issue.
Another was to compare the Genesis to the GS or LS Lexus. I've covered the GS bit and think the LS is probably the finest of cars but the price point is huge as compared to the Genesis and while I would love to have an LS in the garage, it becomes a question of whether it is worth it....dare I say, some 30k difference. It may well be worth it...don't know. Wife also thinks the LS is too big!
Bottom line, she wants quiet along with a soft ride and the Genesis we drove hit it on the head and for pricing it competes very well with the ES.
One question I posed that was never responded to was the historical dramatic decline in values of the Hyundai nameplate vs. other brands. My fear is that this is a car that should be bought a year from now for a fraction of original sticker.
Let's say I go for a 40k Genesis and buy for 36k and in a year I see these cars selling for 20k. That folks, is a HUGE hit in the shorts.
This may well not happen but is of concern to me.
Thoughts???
So what I'm saying is your Genesis may drop an additional 2-3k off an ES, but you'll still have significantly more car w/ your Genesis IMO.
The problem w/the hard suspension surfaced on our trip over Xmas from the SF Bay area to Orange County & San Diego when we had to travel down & back I-5. Especially in the right lane where the trucks beat-up the road, I felt like I was driving a Jeep Wrangler as the jostling literally caused my upper body to move back & forth as we traveled over the bumps & dips. Unfortunately, the jostling aggravated a back problem, so I’m realizing that, as is, the Genesis isn't the car for us since we drive to S. CA 4-5 times/yr.
I'm going to talk w/the dealer & see if there are any suggestions for improving the ride. I've read the thread in the genesisowners.com website & don't want to put weights in the trunk to help, & am hesitant to reduce air pressure to soften the ride, which in turn would also reduce MPG & tire life. Fortunately, I was going to sell my old car to my nephew & deliver it in Feb. Now I can keep that if the suspension problem doesn’t get resolved, & sell the Genesis, unfortunate both because it’s a great car except for the suspension, & even w/only ~700 miles on it, it’ll cost us some $.
You really believe that?
Here is the article to read for yourself:
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=9- 7562
You could say the Genesis was released in a tough economy, but based on the current results, the tough economy could be helping the Genesis directly or indirectly.
The bad: more slumping news of the automotive market
The good: the continued rise of the Genesis, depsite having a lot of bad circumstances surrounding the vehicle.
The Genesis has been holding its value relatively well. Sure it depreciates like a rock, but so are other luxury vehicles, including that of the GS, for example.
Relative is the keyword here, a Genesis retains about 34% after five years, GS, 38%.
I am really getting perturbed! I am not going to tolerate this without making it very embarrassing for Hyundai if it is not rectified very soon. As you can see by the mileage I have racked up, I bought the car to use ... not to have sitting around with a dead battery!
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Consumer.cfm
Captain, ol' boy, that day has already arrived. As a Genesis owner for five months & 9000 miles, I've monitored this site occasionally and simply cannot understand why you spend so much time posting about a car that you freely admit you've never driven nor even seen!
Given your obvious yet mysterious preoccupation with this car, I'd recommend spending some time at genesisowners.com, where you will encounter many people that dumped their "big boy" cars for a Genesis...myself included (an '02 530i w/ sport & premium pkgs). While I concede that Genesis has different strengths and weaknesses relative to the 5-series, it's a VERY compelling package, and I have NO regrets about trading in my Bimmer...which, by the way, cost me $22K more than the Genesis SIX YEARS AGO! Badges be damned...HMA has really scored a coup with the Genesis, but it's your perogative to lob spitballs from the sidelines, I guess.
Two flaws that killed it for me. The suspension is definitely designed for comfort - handling is very mushy - almost like driving a couch through a 30 mph turn onto a side street. The front wheels could not handle the g forces.
The other flaw was the absence of low-end torque. The car eventually gets going but it was much too tame off the line. I wasn't looking to leave rubber - just looking for the grunt to show up a lot earlier than it does.
This said - it's a hell of a car for the money depending on what's important to the owner.
I do have to admit that I drove the Genesis and really, really liked it. People try to compare it to a BMW but that is not what the Genesis is about. It is more of a luxury car, like the LS.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The other flaw was the absence of low-end torque. The car eventually gets going but it was much too tame off the line. I wasn't looking to leave rubber - just looking for the grunt to show up a lot earlier than it does
I respectively disagree, one thing to note; tire pressure plays a huge part in the Genesis performance, also after driving the last 2800 plus miles I have discovered that ESC steps in way too early.
Here is how I get ‘performance’ from a standstill and some of my impressions;
1 – Front tire pressure is set to 32 PSI and rear tires to 35 PSI.
2 – I switch the ESC to the off position.
3 – I no longer smash the accelerator any more, rather press the accelerator slowly taking at least two seconds to get to the first gate
4 – After the first 500 miles the V8 really begun to open up
It is not as neck snapping as my previous weekend vehicle (2000 TransAM WS6), however traveling in comfort is more than worth the 0.5 seconds in 0-60mph difference
I agree with you it is not as ‘stiff’ as 5 series but certainly not as mushy as Lexus, and if one takes a 90 angle at 45 mph there is a ‘feeling’ of body roll but the car will preform the maneuver as if it is on rail tracks . :shades:
_________
Another weird thing... when I made the second post, I initially tried to embed the same Chrysler emblem image that I used the first time. But it was not visible in the saved post. So I swapped it for a different image, and that one shows up just fine.
As I said, there have been some very strange things happening in Town Hall the past few days... :confuse: :sick:
You're absolutely right. Contrary to some auto mag reviews that indicate that the handling is truly sports sedan close - it is a luxury car and a hellavu bargain. Yes, I was comparing it to a BMW and it's unfair but I tried. The thought of saving $22K over a fully equiped 535 or 550 was seductive.
In the end - even though there are few places to really drive like I want - I value the sporty handling.
1. feedback through steering wheel (numb?)
2. on-center steering precision (straight-line wander?)
3. suspension stiffness
4. suspension travel limits (hit the stops on rough roads?)
5. damping (certain speed/road combination induce bouncing?)
I'm wondering if the "official" reviewers concluded that the Genesis steering was not numb and therefore was not like a Lexus.