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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I know right, I was so disappointed in Honda and Acura for bloating up the Accord and TL into large sedan category though they still try to pretend it is a mid-size

    I am glad I got my 08 TL when I did, that car is just the prefect size in every dimension! I mean the new TL is just as long as the RL and I think actually the TL is bigger than the RL in width


    For me the TL (I have an '05) is still too big. I really liked the previous TSX but they bloated that one up, too.

    My prediction is that the next Accord will get a bit smaller. With gas higher and the economy weak, they are making those decisions now.

    The only Hondas I still find attractive are the Civic and the CRV.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    well lets hope they do!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Sonata is now the segment leader in every category. bow down to the king.

    My Mazda store is next to a Hyundai store, and on Saturday I had 2 people walk over after driving the new Sonata and were unimpressed. They said it drove very sloppy. The really funny thing is they both ended up buying a new Mazda6.

    I was very shocked at their impressions of the new Sonata, especially after what I have read about it.

    Bow down? Not so fast...
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Don't get me wrong, Hyundai makes some nice products, the new Sonata is eye catching but those people you mentioned who test drove, I came to the same conclusion after I test drove the Genesis, it drove very sloppy and not sporty enough for me! Sounds like the Sonata rides and handles similar to that according those people you spoke with!

    Trust me, the Mazda 6 and Altima ride and handle much better than the Sonata does in regards to better feedback and control! It all depends on what your looking for in a car! For some, the Sonata will fit the bill fine who are looking for a nice capable car but don't want that sporty nature or flare to it!
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Probably drives like a Camry, I too would have walked to the M6 since it is very close to the Fusion. Give it a year and see how well it sells though, if people who like how a Camry handles drive it and like it, it will sell well.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I wonder what trim level they drove. I could see the GLS or Limited feeling "sloppy" compared to a Mazda6, but probably with trade-off for ride smoothness. I think the SE would be a better match for the Mazda6.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Not so fast, the Camry drives real nice. I rented one and put 1000 miles on it in a week and absolutely loved the way it drove. Got a combined mileage for the week of 30 mpg. It wasn't BMW tight, but sloppy...no way.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Camry drives real nice

    It may drive nice, but the problem is how do get it to stop. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I would get the car in a heartbeat, not really worried.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Drive one that has 30K on it, then go drive a Fusion, one drives like a rowboat, the other handles as if on rails. If you like soft sloppy rides, that's fine, if you like a car that can take a turn without feeling like it will tip over, that's not a Camry. The Fusion/M6 can take a turn at 30MPH that a Camry can barely take at 20. That is what the difference is between the two. A curve that a Camry can just about handle at 50, the Fusion/ Mazda6 can take at 65. An undulating road, the Camry would be all over it, the Fusion will be steady. I know this, I have driven both and it is part of the reason I dumped the Camry for a Fusion, the other part was the poor quality of the Toyota.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    agreed, don't get me wrong, the Camry has a nice comfortable ride in regards to road feel and not letting much into the cabin but it had trouble with the suspension being too soft in regard to wallowing up and down which yields very sloopy/poor handling!

    the Fusion and Altima to the best job in the segment of finding just the right balance between a comfortable ride that gives you a little feedback, but not too much, while at the same time having a competent cornering and handling ability and response! the Mazda 6 has similar if not slightly better handling than the Fusion and Altima but the 6, at least I feel has too much of a firm/harsh ride compared to the Fusion and Altima! so all in all the Fusion and Altima do the best in regards to having the perfect ride/handling balance of their competition!

    I would rank the mid-size category as follows for having the best and worst ride/handling balance!

    Ride/Handling Balance
    1) Fusion/Altima (the best balance)
    2) Mazda 6 (less comfortable ride, great handling)
    3) Sonata (in the middle of the pack in avg ride/handling)
    4) Accord ( good ride, so-so handling at times)
    5) Camry (best ride, lousy handling)
    6) Malibu (so so ride, depending on model and not that great in handling)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Okay, I'll take your word for what you say, but I really liked the car. I don't have to pretend I'm driving a mid-size sedan like I'm driving a race car. I want a car that's comfortable. The Camry actually wasn't my first choice, I had a G6 reserved, but I really was at first disappointed then surprised.

    If I decide to buy I'll take my chances. But thanks for the feedback.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Interesting list. Let me add my $.02:

    1) Mazda6 - With the 2nd-gen's bigger size, it lost the BMW-crisp handling and responses, but IMO still the best in terms of overall handling. The ride can be harsh, but it's quite tolerable to me for a daily driver.
    2) (tie)Fusion/Milan and Legacy - The best in terms of the delicate balance between ride and handling. Rides well, but doesn't fall over itself in the twisties.
    3) Passat - Handling is very good except when really pushed, ride not as smooth as the Fusion.
    4) Accord - used to be the best in terms of ride/handling, but the current-gen is porky, and while the ride is still very smooth, the handling just isn't as inspired as in models past.
    5) Altima - my Jekyll & Hyde choice of the segment. The previous SE (and now SR) versions have excellent handling and a decent ride, but the S and SL sacrifices almost all it's handling for a smoother ride.
    6) (tie)'10 Sonata and Malibu - "Just right" for the typical midsize driver, but too soft in overall handling to put a smile on my face.
    7) Camry - Best replacement for Ambien or Lunesta that's on 4 wheels today. Used to be as bad as a Buick, but with the expected new Regal, even Buick could surpass it in handling/ride.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    7) Camry - Best replacement for Ambien or Lunesta that's on 4 wheels today. Used to be as bad as a Buick, but with the expected new Regal, even Buick could surpass it in handling/ride.

    I'm assuming this is meant as as a very postive comment.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I would get the car in a heartbeat, not really worried.

    You have to be kidding? Buying a 2010 Toyota is definitely putting your life and those possibly around you on the road, at risk.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Top Picks 2010

    According to Consumer Reports? That sure isn't saying much. :confuse:
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    edited February 2010
    1. 2011 Sonata - The new BENCHMARK in the midsize class (actually classified as Large car). The New Bull's-Eye

    It's clear that Hyundai is leaving no stone unturned in its quest to dominate the segment in every category, both objective and subjective. When it comes to size, dynamics, fuel economy, power, equipment and price, Hyundai has brought a howitzer to a gunfight.

    2. Fusion
    3. Accord
    4. Altima
    5. Camry/Malibu
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    It's clear that Hyundai is leaving no stone unturned in its quest to dominate the segment in every category, both objective and subjective. When it comes to size, dynamics, fuel economy, power, equipment and price, Hyundai has brought a howitzer to a gunfight.

    ...which proves nothing.

    I rather take impressions from my own eyes and ears, and be able to test one out for myself instead of relying on somebody else to tell me whats the "best".

    Besides, what's a "benchmark" for one "expert" is a near-miss to another one, and a failure to a third. Again, proving nothing.

    I'll call it a "benchmark" when I take one out for a test-drive... Oh, wait. No V6? Oh...

    2011 Hyundai Sonata (that's me crossing it off my list)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Your kidding, right? That's alarmist talk. Maybe you should "steer" (pun intended) of all Toyotas on the road. :shades
  • xmechxmech Member Posts: 90
    You have to be kidding? Buying a 2010 Toyota is definitely putting your life and those possibly around you on the road, at risk.

    While the acceleration thing isn't good, it amazes me how crazy everyone is going about this, but look at how people drive anyways and how many accidents, injuries, and deaths are caused by bad & stupid driving vs the acceleration thing, and it makes you wonder about people in general... So anyways, look at the wacked out drivers you and your family are exposed to every time you get on the road (and maybe how we drive ourselves sometimes, for those not afraid to look in the 'mirror'), you're taking your life into your hands already.
  • xmechxmech Member Posts: 90
    Oh, and I forgot, re:2011 Sonata. Great that it gets 35 MPG and good horses and torque out of 4 cylinders, but it's too ugly for my taste. I have my limits.
  • avucarguyavucarguy Member Posts: 56
    So there is 34 deaths linked to Toyota unintended acceleration? :confuse: People are too paranoid, Toyota sells how many millions of vehicles over the last 7-8 yrs? I used to live in Philadelphia, the murder rate in 2008 was 332. If you don't drive a Toyota and live in Philly, your chance of getting killed is much greater than driving a Toyota for the last 8 years and living somewhere else. No I do not work for Toyota. The media loves bad news, bad news especially when sensationalized sells and make money.
    I own a Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda, and I would not hesitate buying a car from any of these companies again. For those of you who are "afraid to death" to drive your Toyota and are not happy with the current Toyota solution, please trade your Toyota in for another different brand.
    Thank goodness for the Japanese car companies to provide competition against GM/Ford/Chrysler back in the 80's, if not we would still be driving [non-permissible content removed] American cars now. I would still be driving cars like my POS 1980 Pontiac Sunbird coupe that I have to bring to my mechanic at least every other month for repairs.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    mazda v6 17/25
    genesis v8 17/25

    just sayin.

    anyway, mazda is too sporty and it's ride is bit harsh to be a true contender in this segment. and mazda's real problem is the MPG rating.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    Your standard is definitely not an american standard. last time i checked camry is the #1 seller in america.

    after all hyundai wants to take over the world with sonata. i'm sure they could have sacrificed mpg like mazda and build a super sporty midsize sedan,but instead hyundai built a well balanced camry & accord beater.

    again, when you want to be the top dawg, you gotta beat the top dawg which is camry and accord. . mazda6 is an after thought. it's like suzuki kizashi. i bet kizashi handles better than mazda6. but hyundai didn't even bother to include them in the press.

    anyway 9 out of 10 camry buyers don't care about handling. handing is an after thought in the midsize battle field.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    v6 is a dinosaur, remember? sonata turbo with 250hp+ 35mpg will get the job done against v6 fatties.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Wow - that list is like an elderly person's wish-list. Maybe the Passat is something resembling a fun car to drive, but they all scream commuter jellybean to me. The problem with the Camry of course is Toyota actually made a blander Buick than Buick. That takes some serious trying. :P
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Your standard is definitely not an american standard. last time i checked camry is the #1 seller in america.

    It's not a "standard", it's an OPINION.

    anyway 9 out of 10 camry buyers don't care about handling. handing is an after thought in the midsize battle field.

    Actually, I'll bet it's more like 8 out of 10, and I'm proud to be that one or two that do. Especially when it's a DD and I can't afford/want a sports car that's great for weekends but impractical the other 5 days of the week.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    v6 is a dinosaur, remember? sonata turbo with 250hp+ 35mpg will get the job done against v6 fatties.

    News flash: A turbocharged 4-cylinder will NOT get 35 MPG, especially when you're trying to keep up with the V6 crowd. You'll probably be paying another 30 cents/gallon for premium fuel as well, when the V6 "fatties" from Ford, Mazda, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, etc. do not.

    Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned (read:opinion), I'll take the V6.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Some of us maybe like it like that, ummm, like millions and millions and millions. I guess you are not in the Camry target audience. :shades
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree with you. I'll believe it when I see it. Subaru gets 300+ hp out of its engine on the STI, but it doesn't get 35 mpg. The only way the Sonota is going to get 35 mpg and 250+ hp is by turning off the engine going downhill.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Why does one need handling? Unless you're planning to go racing on the weekends.That handling stuff really puzzles me.My Optima handles well enough for me.It's not considered "sporty",but can somebody define "sporty" in a 4 door sedan? That V6 question is another puzzler.How much acceleration does one need to merge into traffic on the interstate.When gas goes back to 4 bucks per gallon,the V6 won't stay in favor for very long.
    I wonder how many know that V8 engines in the early 50s had less HP than the modern I4s.The flat head ford V8 had only about 110 HP, and even the more advanced Rocket Olds engine was around 160.That pulling an Olds 98 Convertible that weighed 5200 lbs.Sorry....I digress.Just some early morning musings by an old man.No offense intended. :blush:
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    No offense taken. You're just stating your opinion, just like I was.

    To me, I like to have a little fun when I'm driving, even a 4-door sedan. If I want to take an onramp with a little more speed, I'd like to know that the car I'm driving will help me out. As for V6, it's purely a preference. I haven't heard/felt a 4-cylinder that's smoother than a V6, and the extra acceleration when passing on a two-lane or merging with 80-MPH traffic is nice.

    I can understand the fuel economy argument, but with me, it's a wash. I average 24-26 MPG with my Mazda6 V6, with highway drives hitting 30 MPG. My previous car was a Grand Am with a 4-cylinder, and I averaged the same mileage. Yup, the same. Even when driving my wife's Altima 2.5S, I average about 27 MPG.

    I understand the argument from some saying that it's "only" a 4-door family sedan, but what's the problem of having your cake and eating it too?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Handling in a daily driver is more about how the car feels rather than performance. For some of us, a car that feels "wallowy" in turns is not pleasant to drive. It's about precision and control, not Gs and lap times. Some don't care and prefer a soft ride and Toyota and Buick have that market covered.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Generally speaking, a turbo I4 will run fine on regular gas assuming the level of boost is regulated vs. the octane rating. Variable boost levels dependent on the octane rating of the fuel has been around for 30 years pioneered by SAAB. Unless the technique is unavailable due to legal constraints, or beyond the technical prowess of Hyundai (doubtful), I would think they would want to implement this into the Sonata.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Handling in a daily driver is more about how the car feels rather than performance. For some of us, a car that feels "wallowy" in turns is not pleasant to drive. It's about precision and control, not Gs and lap times. Some don't care and prefer a soft ride and Toyota and Buick have that market covered.

    Well stated, and absolutely true in my case.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I wonder how many know that V8 engines in the early 50s had less HP than the modern I4s.The flat head ford V8 had only about 110 HP,

    Correct, and I'd like to add my snowblower has more hp than some of the early 19th century V12s, and is more fun to drive. :shades
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    In addition to not wanting a car that feel "wallowy", handling is about responsiveness of the steering. Cars like Camry and Optima have vague steering, you turn the wheel and the car keeps going straight. When you are used to that I think you do not notice it or maybe some like that.

    When you switch cars it is very noticeable. That vagueness was very annoying to me when I had an Optima for a week long rental...it was like "am I turning , yet?". Then when I got home and got in my Mazda6 I had to be careful driving home, even in changing lanes on the freeway, as I had gotten used to that vagueness and had to remember to not "oversteer".

    I learned my lesson and on our next trip, turned down the free "upgrade" to a midsize Kia and took a Mazda3.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I agree with you. I'll believe it when I see it. Subaru gets 300+ hp out of its engine on the STI, but it doesn't get 35 mpg. The only way the Sonota is going to get 35 mpg and 250+ hp is by turning off the engine going downhill.

    Something seems fishy about their EPA estimates to me. 22 mpg in the city? That's 13 mpg less than the highway rating (they only list the NA I4 on the Hyundai site, no turbo which I agree is bound to be rated much lower). I suspect that the tranny is geared pretty high for highway cruising thus resulting in a much higher hwy rating. If that's the case owners better drive these things on some really flat highways or they won't see anything close to 35 mpg because the tranny will be shifting all over the place to climb hills or grades. The GMC Terrain and Chevy Equinox have exhibited the same behavior from their I4 models too.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Cars like Camry and Optima have vague steering,

    I don't know about the vague steering on the Camry for the model I drove. While it wasn't BMW tight, it wasn't vague either.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Why does one need handling? Unless you're planning to go racing on the weekends.That handling stuff really puzzles me.My Optima handles well enough for me.It's not considered "sporty",but can somebody define "sporty" in a 4 door sedan?

    I don't make 1.0g lateral turns either. But I do like to feel in control of the vehicle. Our Mazda handles better even than my Acura TL, which is wallowy in turns. Don't get me going about our minivan. Tight, precise steering and a planted car inspire confidence. Sort of like the difference between a good ball point pen and a cheap Bic. They both write. Some people probably don't care, just like in cars.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    when I test drove the Camry last year, the handling was adequate for normal DRY sunny day weather (which was the weather I was driving in) but I knew that as soon as it got wet with rain or worse more SNOW, I knew the car would be come scary and harder to control on any kind of curves, plus I was getting nausea from the wallowy/floaty up and down sloppiness of the suspension! I hope Toyota can retune the suspension on the next gen and able to keep the silky smooth ride they have but get better control on lateral and floaty up and down motions by the suspension while improving handling!

    I think the TL handles decently, well you have an 05 I think and I have a 08 and I don't know if the steering what changed but except for extremely tight curves, where the TL I do agree slips a little bit, I think it handles pretty good, high subjective I know ;) not as well as a Mazda, Infiniti, or BMW, but no where near the sloppiness of a Toyota or Lexus handling situations!
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    edited February 2010
    it's had to believe that you are getting 30mpg on a highway.

    mazda6 is rated at 17/25. same as genesis v8.

    and hyundai is aiming for 35mpg for sonata turbo, but even if it comes little short, it would probably more economical than your mazda.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    anyway, my brother's 96 e36M3 was the best handling car i've ever driven. my friend's 98 integra type R is 2nd. also my 95 325i was no slouch in terms of handling.

    but i have a family, and i would rather sacrifice on handling so i can have a bigger, more luxurious, more economical ride over zoom-zoom. that's just me. sonata turbo will have a plenty of power and good MPG rating and most likely it will be my next car.
  • Jason5Jason5 Member Posts: 440
    I'm a bit late to this discussion--so I apologize if I'm asking for "old" information. I'm likely purchasing sometime in the early-mid summer. I might be willing to postpone that if the Mazda6 is indeed getting an uprated GDI 4 for the 2011 model year. I'm comfortably narrowed down to a new Sonata or the 6. I'm sticking with 4 cylinders because they are adequate and I'm focusing on mileage. I have a Pacifica if I need to haul more people and "things". I'd be interested in hearing from Mazda6 owners with the 4 on how they like their cars. I'm up to speed on stats, etc....just curious about experiences....
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    If you want sporty sedan, you can't go wrong with Mazda6, Kizashi, and legacy.

    if you want all arounder, you can't go wrong with Sonata, Fusion, Accord, and Altima.

    take a test drive and buy the one you like. my 2 cents.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    It is quite possible to get 35 MPG in the Turbo I4. You only use the turbo when you need it, otherwise it is no different than a NA I4. Ford's Ecoboost is a Direct Injection Turbocharged V6. It puts out 360+ HP, yet gets the same MPG as the NA non direct injected 3.5 V6. Here's another kicker, the ratings on the FWD 3.5, not the AWD version, the Ecoboost only comes in AWD, so it gets better MPG than the other engine in AWD. Hyundai's I4 is a Direct Injected 4 banger that runs on 87 octane, it does not require the use of premium fuel, but if you want more HP, you can certainly put 93 in it and the PCM will compensate and give more power without wasting fuel efficiency.

    Don't assume that because it has a turbo that you need premium gas, and it will get fewer MPG, that isn't true anymore with today's technology. I own an Flex SEL Ecoboost, I am getting over 19 MPG in it and I don't even have 1000 miles on it yet. It is getting better MPG than the Veracruz that didn't have a turbo and 100 less HP! 10 years ago an engine like this would be lucky to get 12 MPG on the highway, yet today they can get 24. Isn't technology great!!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    today's technology

    What is today's technology? An engine doesn't magically know the fuel octane rating. If it knocks and the knock sensors pick it up it adjusts the timing. If the engine is designed for regular fuel, premium is a waste. If it's designed for premium, and the knock sensors detect knock, the ecu adjusts the timing changes which effects performance and fuel economy.

    For an I4 turbo to get 35 mpg on the highway there will be some tradeoffs in performance, what they are I'm sure will be made known as the car gets tested.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    direct injection is today's technology.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    edited February 2010
    Direct injection has been around for a few years. Premium car manufacturers have been using it in one form or another along with other enhancements to performance and economy.. Valve timing, direct injection all ways of reducing components and making the air fuel mixture more efficient. As with other technologies that started on the high-end and trickled down to mainstream, this is one of them.

    There is no magic bullet for engine design, it's either designed for premium and run on regular, or not designed for premium in which case premium is a waste. If there are knock sensors, it's designed for premium.
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