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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • Wow, that is kind of a weird article though...they compared the Altima with the Taurus and Kia Amanti or whatever its called. And then the Legacy is in there too. Did they skew things bigger because the Accord is straddling the class lines between mid and large? They also tested the Camry and not the Avalon.
  • The new Sebring seems to get no respect.

    CU said it had a nice 6 speed auto and the 3.5 was lively, or something along those lines.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I find it odd that with the increased desire for more fuel efficient vehicles that more cars in this category aren't offering more body styles that offer greater cargo carrying capability. Some wagons and, to a lesser degree, hatchbacks offer utility similar to a smaller SUV/ crossover w/ out the weight/gas mileage and handling penalty. If consumers want a vehicle that has more flexibility in hauling things, they will have a hard time finding many choices in this segment anymore.

    The thing is they don't want those vehicles. Americans will pay a premium only if a wagon is a tall pseudo-SUV or "Crossover". This is why the Mazda6 wagon could only be priced at $1150 above the comparable sedan, while the Edge is priced at $3885 above the comparable Fusion (a bit of that difference is accounted for by the 3.5 vs. the 3.0). Now if you are a manufacturer and the customer has told you "put this wagon on stilts and I'll give you an extra $2500 for it" what would you do? I'm pretty sure you'd be installing those stilts.

    Mazda certainly has done this with their CX vehicles. In the case of Subaru, no one wanted the Legacy wagon they wanted the Outback.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,934
    Speaking of "getting no respect", I noticed that the 3rd-place car in the mid-sized I4 cars ranked by CR was the Optima, behind only the Altima and Accord. Not too shabby. It's also tied for 2nd (with the Aura) in the comsumer rankings on the right of this page--again below the Altima.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Good point. I would just caution to weigh the ranking with the number of reviews for any of these cars. The fewer the reviews, the less reliable the results are, of course.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I certainly don't put much stock in people reviewing their own cars. These are just two reasons: 1) It depends on what the owner is comparing the reviewed car to. If the car is the first new car, and most expensive car they have ever owned, they are more likely to be impressed. But if the car is the cheapest car they have ever owned (previously owned expensive luxury cars), they will likely be less impressed. 2) The owner has spent close to $20k on this car, so he/she obviously has a good opinion of it. Not many people will spend that kind of money on a car, then give a review saying how inferior it is to the competition.
    I think comparison tests done by people who don't own any of the cars, are more likely to be fair and unbiased.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You'd rather people who don't own the cars do the reviews? ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Of course. How many times has an owner said "I paid too much for this car" or "I think my car is the worst car in this segment, but it was cheaper, so I bought it anyway"? Anyone who reads more than two pages of the "Midsize Sedans" forum will come to the conclusion that owners are biased in favor of the cars they own. Don't you think so? If they didn't like the car more than the others, they wouldn't have bought it.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Posts: 140
    The new Sebring seems to get no respect.

    Does it deserve it?

    I drove a 2001 Sebring for 6.5 years and actually liked it a lot. I wanted so badly to like the newly redesigned Sebring. I looked at an 07 Sebring before buying the Aura. I was unimpressed at the build quality, ambience, and performance. While I am always a bit skeptical of Comsumer Reports' opinions, read the article on the Sebring's twin, the Dodge Avenger. They point to very objective flaws in the car ('clunks from the suspension', 'our car came with a wiring harness hanging under the dashboard on the driver's side that was easily kicked', 'more wires hang under the seat and in the trunk'. They said that many of those who took the car on long trips described the seats as painful over time. They showed a picture of a huge blind spot because of a poorly designed rear door pillar.

    The Avenger they tested had the top-of-the-line 3.5 liter engine. It did 0-60 in 7.7 sec. and got 20 mpg. The Accord V6 tested in the same issue was both quicker (0-60 in 7.4) and got better fuel economy (21 mpg). The Saturn Aura XR they tested last year blew its doors off, doing 0-60 in just 6.6 seconds.

    When you're up against the likes of the Accord, Malibu/Aura, Camry, Fusion, etc. mediocre simply doesn't cut it.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    The thing everyone has to do is analyze the various reviews and then make a consensus judgement.

    i.e. under MPG rating, one person might rate 22 MPG a 9 and another person might rate 22 MPG a 6. There is so much subjectivity without a defined standard. But by reading many reviews, one can get an overall impression of the car being reviewed.

    I wouldn't feel qualified to rate a car I took on a 15 minute test drive. I could only honestly rate a car I had driven a few hundred miles for the rating to have any credibility.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Sure, you can learn something from the owner reviews. They will mention things about the car that are special or different, that you may not notice on a test drive. But as far as going by the total scores, I put no faith in them. Some comparisons are done over many miles, and the cars are driven back to back. That gives the reviewers an instant comparison. A personal owner review can give you some insight about a car, but you have to take them with considerably more than a grain of salt (tablespoon maybe).
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,506
    I agree about the owner reviews. but like you said you have to read them and collect the information and check it for validity. A lot of the reviews are after owning the car two days or two weeks. That's the honeymoon. Sometimes there's useable info but that info usually comes from someon who's owned it for several thousand miles and some time.

    Reading each one also lets you place a validity value on the info as to how true it may be. And example is someone a couple years back just ranted about a particular car because he had rented it and hated it. Probably base model, etc., etc. Can't blame him but info didn't help a potential buyer much.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We weren't talking about posts, we were talking about the consumer reviews on the right. Have a look. Personally, I have a problem with the ones that say variations of "I just got this car and it's wonderful" and there are a number of those, but a fair number of people report their experiences very straightforwardly after some real time behind the wheel. The reviews are focused on the cars themselves, not the purchasing process, so whether they think they paid too much or hated the salesman, etc., isn't relevant and usually isn't reported (not in the ones that I edit, anyway ;)).

    That is why I said the fewer reviews posted, the more skeptically the rating should be viewed. The "just got it and I'm in love" reviews skew the results more heavily when there are fewer reviews.

    Check them out. If one reads them as one should read anything "on the internet", i.e., with however many grains of salt might be necessary, there is some really helpful information to be gained.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    If you know of a review that was posted by someone who rented a vehicle, please either let me know where it is or use the "report it" feature. That review needs to be taken down and we'll take care of it.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    If you know of a review that was posted by someone who rented a vehicle, please either let me know where it is or use the "report it" feature. That review needs to be taken down and we'll take care of it.

    Pat,
    The very first post, the latest one, dated 12/11/2007, for the Ford Fusion, begins "I rented one of these for a week ..."
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I read on another website that Toyota is showing off a facelifted Camry at Detroit.

    Doesn't make sense seeing as the Camry is barely two years old...facelifts usually come for the fourth model year???

    I hear new engines (for the I4 at least) are in the mix.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    The Avenger they tested had the top-of-the-line 3.5 liter engine. It did 0-60 in 7.7 sec. and got 20 mpg. The Accord V6 tested in the same issue was both quicker (0-60 in 7.4) and got better fuel economy (21 mpg). The Saturn Aura XR they tested last year blew its doors off, doing 0-60 in just 6.6 seconds.

    And my Viper can blow the doors off any of them.

    Why is it that when people start comparing cars they always jump to some speed test? I didn't purchase my Sebring based on whether it can get to the next red light faster than the Camry next to me. I bought it because it has loads of gadgets, has a nice quiet ride, great styling (IMHO) and is fun to drive. My mom, who owns an 06 300C, commented on how nice it rides.

    I bought the top-of-the-line Limited with every option except a sunroof, which I rarely used in my old car and didn't want in this one. It has nice, soft leather seats, no clunks in the suspension and no wires protruding from under the dash on anywhere else that I've noticed. CR must have gotten an Avenger that was built on a Friday.

    I test drove a 3.0L AWD Fusion and sat in a Camry before buying my Sebring. I didn't make it down the road to the Saturn dealer to see what they had because the Chrysler salesman made an offer that was too tempting to pass up.

    BTW, here's some info that doesn't always get published. Chrysler's engineers were limited in their design abilities when Daimler still held the reins. The DC bosses didn't want their Mercedes interiors to be overshadowed by less expensive domestic vehicles. Rumor and recent articles say that the Viper program might be axed to make money available to upgrade some things on the Sebring.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    The DC bosses didn't want their Mercedes interiors to be overshadowed by less expensive domestic vehicles.

    I heard a very high ranking Chrysler executive on TV (Autoline Detroit I think) admit that they simply underestimated the importance of the interior and the competition and did not allocate enough money to it and that they had already fixed that problem within the current development cycles. They simply chose not to spend the money on it.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    We weren't talking about posts, we were talking about the consumer reviews on the right. Have a look.

    I have read a lot of owner reviews. Like you, I think the people who have a new car for a couple of days, and decide to write a review don't have any real experience with the car to report anything useful. Yes, some people give you good information about the car (likes, as well as dislikes). The people who say "I bought the car yesterday, and I love it", then give the car all 10s skew the average score, even if there are 100 reviews. I put absolutely no stock in the average score (9.2 or 8.2) it means nothing IMO.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Thank you. I reported it. It may take a week or so to get it down, but it will come down.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I understand. But the only point I was trying to make is that those "I bought it yesterday, I love it, all 10s" reviews skew a small sample far more than a large one.

    But I hear ya!

    It is worth the time to look through them to find the ones that are posted after the owner has really gotten to know the vehicle and is able and willing to provide a straightforward assessment of the positives and the negatives. They do exist and can be very helpful.

    Actually, that's the kind of thing that would be very useful in this forum as well. ;)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    Pat, I reviewed my KIA several times.It started very negative and now after over 14K miles I have learned to love it and now it's a 10, or very close to that.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You've been posting that in the CRRs? That's great!! I remember reading your issues in the Optima discussion when you first got it and I'm glad to hear you are happy now. :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,934
    Went out to dinner one night this week with four colleagues while out of town for a class. We took one guy's rental car, a Milan Premier. I got the back seat. :( The driver and front passenger were talking as we got into the car on the return trip. Part of the conversation went something like this:

    "You know, this is a nice car!"
    "Yeah, I like it better than the Accord." (Front passenger got an Accord rental that week; I only got a Civic.)

    All I can say about it is, the leather smelled good and felt good, and it was a smooth and quiet ride, but it was a little cramped in back width-wise with 3 adult men--not recommended except for short trips (like we made).

    Next day at the parking lot, the Accord and Milan were side-by-side. The Accord looked like an LX-P. I liked the looks of the Milan better--classier, sleeker.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Front passenger got an Accord rental that week

    Was it the new or old Accord?

    but it was a little cramped in back width-wise with 3 adult men

    I think that would be the case with any midsize sedan. I don't think I would want a car that was wide enough to be comfortable with 3 adults in the back seat.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,934
    It was the 2008 Accord (and I got a 2008 Civic LX). But I saw a previous-gen Accord at the rental lot also, so some of those are still around too.

    I guess if you expect to carry five adult men a lot, better get a full-sized car or big SUV or a minivan.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I've been in the back of an Accord. There is plenty of room for 3 full size adults. Of course, this boils down to: "my definition of plenty is different than yours".
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Yes depends on the meaning of "comfortable" or "plenty" to you. I would just say that my Mazda6 has enough room for 3 in back, but would not want to go on too long a trip in it, if I would have to be one of the three. I am pretty sure I'd feel the same about any midsize. Two hours is the furthest we have gone with 5 adult-size people.

    What year is the Accord that has "plenty of room" for 3 in back?

    CR says about the Fusion: Three adults can fit across the rear with generous leg room. and they list rear shoulder room at 56 inches.

    CR describing the rear seat of (2007) Accord says: Rear leg room is expansive,
    but the seat is too low for optimal thigh support.
    and they list rear shoulder room at 55 inches.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "What year is the Accord that has "plenty of room" for 3 in back? "

    Late model, not 2008. I've been in the back of a Milan and they are not as roomy as an Accord. The Accord would be fine for a long trip with 5 people.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,934
    CR didn't say how big those 3 adults were, did they? In my case, it was 3 guys who are not offensive linemen in the NFL, but one guy is pretty tall (6'3" or so) and he and the other two (each around 5'10") are broad-shouldered. I felt cramped, especially when sitting in the middle (I sat on the outside one trip, the middle the other trip). Now, maybe if you have 2 slender women and an average-sized guy in there, it will be fine. Just proves "YMMV" and "try before you buy".
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