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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    I'm looking for a midsize sedan mainly for quiet, stress-free highway driving. What would be my best choices?

    I'm trying to decide how many cars to test drive and I want to limit the number as much as possible, maybe to the top 4 or 5. From what I've read the order would be:
    1. Camry
    2. Malibu
    3. 2010 Sonata
    4. 2011 Sonata
    5. Altima
    6. Accord
    7. Fusion

    Would you list the cars in a different order?

    Thanks for your help.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I would put the Fulan higher than the Altima, maybe even 2nd behind the Camry. The Fulan has a composed, quiet highway ride. And also has the benefit of better-than-average handling for a mid-sized car. The 2010 Sonata GLS is pretty quiet also (I haven't driven the 2011 yet), but has more tire noise on the SE and Limited with 17" wheels. I found the Malibu has quite a bit of tire noise on the highway and really isn't that quiet. Altima has a firmer ride than several of the others. Accord is smoother than in past generations but still on the firm side compared to Camry, Fulan, and Sonata. I have read the new Legacy has a composed ride and it might be worth checking out, also perhaps the LaCrosse (although it would be at the upper end of the price range for this class).
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I agree with Backy's list. If you can drive only four or five, I'd say they should be Camry, Fusion/Milan, Sonata, Malibu, and Accord. One thing to remember though: the feel will differ (maybe dramatically) based on whether you choose the four cylinder engine or the V6.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Is that because the V6 is more likely to have lower-profile tires? Or does the extra weight of the V6 affect ride quality somehow?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    edited February 2010
    Those are both true--but they work in opposite directions. Low profile tires would increase noise and handling response, while more weight on the nose would tend to work against quick changes of direction. Furthermore, the Malibu V6 uses hydraulic steering while the four-cylinder uses electric--with a major difference in feel. Then again, there's the issue of engine noise. I'm generally a four-cylinder guy, but the V6 Fusion, Malibu, and Accord make less engine noise than their four-cylinder counterparts--which might matter more to a comfort-focused customer than to a semi-enthusiast like me.

    All these factors add up differently for different models. So I would advise folks to drive both.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    From what I've read the order would be:
    1. Camry
    2. Malibu
    3. 2010 Sonata
    4. 2011 Sonata
    5. Altima
    6. Accord
    7. Fusion


    What have you been reading????? All depends what is important to you, if it is quality, I sure wouldn't put the Camry 1st, read Consumer Guide as it notes the following cons:

    * Build quality
    * Interior materials
    * Steering feel

    Maybe something more like this:

    1. 2011 Sonata - not yet tested
    2. Fusion - BEST BUY
    3. Accord - BEST BUY
    4. Malibu - BEST BUY
    5. Altima
    6. Camry - Recommended
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    If quiet ride is a priority , then :
    1.Camry
    2.Fusion/Milan-both same cars with extra fancy price for Milan
    3.2011 Sonata/a great deal with 2010 Sonata

    The Fusion and Sonata will be good deals used as they depreciate more than Camry and Accord even after taking their low price into account.
    And avoid-Accord,Altima and Mailbu--they are not quiet at all especially the Accord and Altima.And the Malibu has such small windows ,it feels cramped. :shades:

    Also, I think Toyota will be offering 0% financing on its models from March.!! keep us posted !
  • neile457neile457 Member Posts: 65
    I haven't rode / or driven a 2011 Sonata, but here is my rating. Of course, I own a Fusion.

    1. Fusion
    2. Altima
    3. Accord
    4. 11 Sonata
    5. Malibu
    6. Camry
    7. 10 Sonata
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Revit, This stupid anti Toyota rhetoric as you have in other threads is useless. Camry is still one of the top rated sedans for reliability..Have you checked out CR ratings???
    Not Consumer Guide which takes ad money from car makers...
    The Camry especially the 4 cyl is still one of the most reliable sedans out there !!
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    edited February 2010
    The query was for a quiet,comfy highway driving sedan. How can the Accord,Altima and Malibu be quieter than Camry?? Accord is very reliable but is noisy. Altima-average reliability and again not quiet..Sonata-quiet ,but not as quiet as camry and poor depreciation.Fusion is actually a good mix of sporty and comfort.. ;)
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    well if quiet/comfortable ridewas what the original poster was sole looking for in the mid-size car then I would say:

    1) Camry
    2) Fusion
    3) Altima
    4) Sonata
    5) Accord
    6) Malibu

    now keep in mind this is for just one category so if he was say looking for handling or interior quality, etc then the list ranking would change dramatically!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited February 2010
    I'm trying to decide how many cars to test drive and I want to limit the number as much as possible, maybe to the top 4 or 5. From what I've read the order would be:
    1. Camry
    2. Malibu
    3. 2010 Sonata
    4. 2011 Sonata
    5. Altima
    6. Accord
    7. Fusion
    ****
    First off, ignore Consumer Reports. Those choices are bad for the soul and make you prematurely age. When "Vanilla", "Jellybean" and "Rental" are the top three words used to describe cars like this, you need to look elsewhere.

    So what qualifies as different and still reasonably reliable as a 2-5 year old used choice? Let some other fool eat the initial $10-15K in depreciation. Get a certified car if that makes you happy. Though it won't make a difference at all in the long term.

    My picks would include:
    - LaCrosse CXS(other trims/models to be avoided) - good reliability and steep depreciation. Get the one with the 3.6VVT engine out of the CTS)
    - If you want something large, get a last generation CTS. BIg, solid, and yet doesn't handle like a sofa.
    - Honda Civic Si if you are happy with a manual transmission. Otherwise, a previous generation TSX(nearly the same car underneath) would be affordable($20K or less) and a good non-jellybean choice. More power, better styling, and not a "jellybean".
    - Mitsubishi makes a few nice cars as well as Subaru. The goal here should be to get the car you want and that also happens to be good for highway cruising. Nissan also makes a few like the Sentra SE-R Spec V. The idea here is to get a smaller car with the upgraded suspension and kit that gives it the performance of the better cars.
    - Lexus IS300(last year of the previous design). This is before the current problems. It's small, agile, and fantastic. The only car Lexus ever made that competed with a 3 series in feel and driving enjoyment. The IS250 was heavier and had less power - the magic was gone. And the IS350 drives more like a muscle car than a poised highway machine.
    - Pontiac G8. This car impressed the hell out of me. It's actually a re-badged Holden from Australia and has a European type feel and attention to detail. We complain about not getting Euro-Spec normal (non luxury) cars in the U.S. Well, this while Australian, gives you a similar look into what the average consumer buys and can afford over there. Reliable, inexpensive to fix, and thanks to GM's idiocy, depreciating like a rock. Get a 1-2 year old model for under $20K and laugh at the idiots who had to have a Camry(the G8 is a MUCH better car to drive). There even is a v8 version, but that's a bit overkill. Still, if there was ever a true "poor man's 5 series", the G8 with the V8 was certainly it. (note - between the previous generation CTS and the G8, it was a coin toss for me - both were that good)
    - The Europeans aren't out of the running, though. If manual is fine with you, there are several good choices. The Volvo S50 with manual is a fine example, as is the Mercedes C class(note - absolutely nothing at ALL on it. The gem of the C class line was the previous generation C230K sedan. With manual, it gave you roughly 190HP in a euro-tuned sedan and highway MPG of 35 easily. Mercedes and BMW's problems with repairs are all the electronics and accessories as well as the automatic transmissions. This also holds true more or less for VW. My best friend bought a VW with manual and it's been without any issues at all. If you want to go "Green", the Jetta TDI is a fantastic choice as well.
    *note - also stay away from turbo VW engines - the normal ones are fine reliability-wise*

    The trick of course is finding one used that doesn't have any options at all on it. Almost everything shipped from Europe to the U.S. is loaded up 15 different ways with clutter and crap to break. One way to usually get this in a Mercedes or VW is to look for cloth seats. If it really bothers you, you can get these covered in leather. The factory "leather" in them (and BMW and several others) is actually "pleather" - or leather textured vinyl. It falls apart in 5-8 years. Ford and several others also use this in their cars without telling you. Real leather, otoh - any good auto upholstery shop can get you out the door with stuff that will last 30+ years.(loads cheaper than buying the "leather" option on a new car as well)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    For highway cruising I think I'd like a Camry, but with Fusion seats.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    all these comparisons got me thinking, if you had to go out and buy a mid-size sedan tomorrow, what would you buy? I understand this is highly subjective but lets keep it the most updated models out there right now so that would be 2010 Fusion, Altima, Accord, Mazda-6, Passat, Legacy and Malibu plus the 2011 Camry and Sonata!

    Since my priority is sporty/aggressive exterior body style coupled with a comfortable ride/good handling balance, if I was buying tomorrow I would purchase in this order:

    1) 2010 Altima (best ride/handling balance)
    2) 2010 Fusion (best ride/handling balance)
    3) 2010 Legacy (ride not as comfortable as ones above it, but better handling)
    4) 2010 Mazda-6 (ride not as comfortable as ones above it, but better handling)
    5) 2011 Sonata
    6) 2010 Passat
    7) 2011 Camry
    8) 2010 Accord
    9) 2010 Malibu

    the only one of these vehicles I haven't test driven is the new Sonata, while all the rest I have so its hard to place the Sonata since I haven't test driven it myself and so I am only going by what reviews thus far have said about it, but once I test drive it that might change and move further up in my list!

    so what would you all purchase tomorrow and I understand this would change based on what your priority is in a mid-size car???
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    Right now if I had to pick in this segment, and bear in mind I've only driven a 2010 Honda Accord so far:

    1. 2011 Hyundai Sonata. Looks great on paper and I like the styling inside and out, price, reviews, features etc.

    2. 2010 Nissan Altima. Another one with great reviews and a proven track record.

    3. 2010 Ford Fusion. I like what I see in this car other than what I actually see. The exterior styling is just so blah in the pictures of it online. I am still hoping that when I see it in person I will be pleasantly surprised. The ones I see on the road I cant tell if it's the latest version or not.

    After that it's all muddled together. I like the Accord but my parents have one, my sister in law has one, brother has one, neighbor has one, 10 guys at work have them... we already have a CRV... you get the picture. Great car, nothing bad to say about it really. I like the Honda interiors, styling isnt bad (although I like previous iterations better) and still may end up with one but for right now it drops down.

    Malibu is growing on me but another one that seems blah. Camry is too sedate, dont like the Toyota interiors at all. Mazda6, I dont know what to say about it other than it does not grab me.

    If NONE of these fit the bill, I'll have to wait a bit and save up to move into the entry level lux department or wait for new models I suppose.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    edited February 2010
    For me it would be ;

    1.Camry
    2.Accord
    Fusion and Sonatas are better value used. Malibu just not on the radar,neither the Altima.

    I know a lot of folks like Altima but to me it is the most over rated sedan out there..Just MHO though.Cheap plastic interiors,with squeaks and rattles at only about 25k miles and those brakes are horrible.. Much worse than Accord..They go through brakes and Rotors pretty fast at less than 20k miles frequently along with CEL`s :sick:

    Brakes,Squeaks and horrible rattles and CEL`s with mostly sensors involved have long been a problem for Altima and infact all other Nissans like Sentra,Armada, Quest , Titan and it`s interior is inferior to other sedans out there. So what gives? Why do you folks like it??I need a different perspective. :shades:
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    not much spread on reliability between the list of 6. The 5 yr cost to own on these 4 door 4 cyl sedans stickering for low to mid 20's is about $32,500. The Malibu falls in the middle of the pack with $742.00 in repair costs and most of that in the 5th year. The best on the list is a couplle hundred better over five years and $32,500.00. You are Splitting hairs when comparing reliability. Compare that to say 60,000 miles of higher road noise in the Accord. I'd pay the extra couple hundred over 5 years for the quieter ride because of $20 of insulation wasn't put on the chopping block by the bean counters and the dietician..
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    ...if you had to go out and buy a mid-size sedan tomorrow, what would you buy?

    I actually faced this question last week, when my wife's 2007 Sonata GLS was clobbered and was a borderline total. While I was waiting for the insurance company to rule on it (and they did decide to repair it), I did some quick shopping. Now, you probably meant NEW mid-sized car... but since you didn't specify new, I will provide this opinion on what I would buy today if I had to buy something to replace a 2007 Sonata GLS, which I estimate would have an insurance company payout of around $11k.

    My criteria:

    * Safety - at minimum, decent crash test scores, 6 airbags, and ABS. ESC is a plus.
    * Composed ride (bad roads in my area) with decent handling--the better the ride/handling balance, the better, i.e. can't have razor-sharp handling at the expense of a jarring ride, or silky ride with mushy handling.
    * Roomy interior, at least enough for 4 average-sized adults
    * Good fuel economy - i.e. an I4, and more cogs on the tranny the better
    * Low miles - I'd like under 40k miles
    * Excellent condition - looks like new inside and out, no work needed, good tread on tires
    * Clean Carfax report
    * Warranty - longer the better, preferably factory bumper-to-bumper warranty
    * No money out of pocket, meaning my budget is around $10k + T&L

    Here's what I found is available in that space, which would meet my criteria:

    2007 Fusion or Milan: I found some nice samples at around $10k, 30-40k miles, with power seat.
    2007-9 Sonata GLS: I found some good samples between $10-12k, with the 2007s near $10k and the 2009s closer to $12k. If I could work the price down on the 2009s I'd prefer it since it's much improved over the 2006-8 models and has more warranty left.
    2008 Mazda6i Sport - Really nice car, 17" alloys, under $10k but 50k miles. Doesn't fit my criteria as well as the others, but I always liked this model and the price was right.
    2009 Optima LX - I found a couple of near-new Optimas, less than 9k miles, but they were $12k asking price. If I could work the price down I'd consider them.

    I would not mind a used Accord, Altima, or Camry but they were outside my price range except with lots of miles. I don't like the previous-gen Malibu and Legacy that much. I found a low-miles Aura for just over $10k, but I'd rather not have a car without a dealership network to support it, and I don't like it better than Fulans or Sonatas.

    So I was ready to jump on the Fulans (both at same dealer) first, and move on to the Sonatas if those didn't work out. But now I'll be getting my Sonata back in a couple of days.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Wow that is a hard one. I wouldn't buy a slushbox so that limits things alot.
    1. Legacy GT w/6 speed manual
    2. Legacy base w/6 speed manual
    3. Fusion SE w/6 speed manual, moons/toons/sync/appearance pkgs
    4. Hyundai Sonata BASE model with enough $$ left over to get a used E36/E46 BMW or 90-01 Miata.

    I don't see myself getting a NEW car anytime soon, and it probably wouldn't be a midsize one if i did. That said, as a reasonably educated 30-something male, married with a kid (and thinking about another) living the American dream in suburbia, those are my picks. How's that for a demographic :P
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    well first off, I disagree completely with you about the altima, as you probably would have known from my ranks ;)

    the reason being is this, Nissan is not a overrated company, if anything in the last 10 year Nissan and Hyundai have made the most amount of progress in regards to increasing sales, gaining market share despite never being #1 specifically in any one single category, improving reliability and quality drastically across the board!

    I would agree that pre-2007 and especially in the early 2000s, Nissan had very cheap, plastic interior but since 2007 that no longer holds true, at least with their five bread and butter models (Sentra, Altima, Maxima, Rogue, and Murano); since 2007 they have gotten many compliments and positive reviews on how nice their interiors have become, compared to 10 years ago and how they are now competitive with their competition

    I wanted to get a Nissan for years but did feel the interior lacked so I waited, since I saw that each new model was getting better and better, hence why I got my current 2010 Max, the interior in that and the Murano are the nicest Nissan's has ever had and some parts of my Max have Infiniti quality to it; now that is not to say there interiors are absolutely 100% perfect, there are 1 or 2 cheaper pieces of plastics that I would like to see gone, but I felt the same way with the Fusion, Camry, Mazda-6 and especially Malibu! they all had a couple of cheap pieces of plastic and some parts that were really nice so the altima is no stranger than the rest of them

    if you read edmundsline review of the 2010 altima you'll see how many compliments they gave to the interior material quality and fit and finish; the Altima has come along way from the first and second generation models in interior quality! I have read only a relatively few professional reviews with one or two minor complaints about the Altima's interior, the majority have been positive complement the quality, ergonomics, and fit and finish!

    the Altima's interior is not class leading but I would say Nissan is tied for second place with Ford for interior quality, ergonomics, fit/finish etc; Honda still leads the pack with excellent material quality and fit/finish! Nissan definitely has past Toyota in regards to interior quality because I've read more complaints from professional reviewers of the current Camry's build quality, interior quality, fit/finish, then I ever have for the Altima! plus, on two separate test drives of two different Camry models, I was able to detach a piece of the center console and the salesman said,
    "oops, guess will have to bond that back on there" - not something you want to see during a test drive ;) :P

    also, rattles are not prone to just the altima, I heard rattles in the Legacy, Mazda, Malibu, and especially Camry when I drove them and if you check these vehicles forum on edmunds you'll see that they all have squeak/rattle categories and complaints, even the Sonata has one! I personally didn't hear any squeaks or rattles in the Altima when I test drove it but there is a forum for that on edmunds so I guess you have to take that with a grain of salt; the only one that seems to be rattle free so far is the Fusion; the Fusion and Altima were the only two cars of the bunch that didn't hear rattles when I test drove them, but that doesn't mean they don't have any, just means I didn't hear them on the road tests I took them on - rattles also have a lot to do with what time of the day and what facility you get your car from I have found in the past!

    In regards to the brakes, the 2007 Altima, just like any first model year was prone to brake problems; the 2008 models still had some brake/rotor issues but not as many as 2007 and so far the 2009 models have had relatively few problems so it seems Nissan has corrected most of it, though it took a tiny bit longer than I would have liked. but anyway, the Honda Accord has tremendous amount more brake/rotor problems than the Altima does; just go over to that forum and you can read some of the horror stories people are having with this problem and getting Honda to do anything about it; even people with 2009 and 2010 have posted problems already!!

    I think like Hyundai, Nissan isn't given the benefit of the doubt or is overlooked a lot because they are the 3rd Japanese ranked company and they had a long history of cheap interiors, and some so-so reliabilities, WITH CERTAIN MODELS, which has only changed in the past 4-5 years!

    Nissan would be ranked much higher than what they are as a brand if they got rid of some of their problem models, such as the Versa, Armada, Titan, and Quest which reduce their overall reliability as a brand; Most of Nissan's bread and butter models, I think for 2010 got above avg reliability, I know my Maxima did, and the altima, sentra, maxima, rogue, and murano have always been on the recommended list!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited February 2010
    Have owned several Nissans and a good friend owned an Altima. I currently own an 8 yr. old Infiniti and have had none of the problems you describe. In fact they have all been very good vehicles.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    I have a 6yr old Infiniti that has had no problems, and so far my 2010 Max has run and performed flawlessly!

    I have two good friends, one has a 2003 Altima, another a 2006 and neither have had any problems, other than normal maintenance on their Altimas!

    My Uncle has a 1995 Maxima, with 190k miles on it currently and still has not needed any major repairs!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I wonder if the original poster is totally confused now that everyone has answered about a dozen questions he didn't even ask. From what's the way to buy cars to adding tons of other cars to the list. We should have asked him if he wanted 4 or 6 cyl and about what he wanted to spend. Then the choices could have been a lot closer to the 4 or 5 he was asking for. He didn't ask what was more reliable, best resale or any other crap like that. His overall want is a smooth comfortable ride. Jeesh.

    My picks:

    1 2010 Camry
    2. 2010 Sonata
    3. 2010 Malibu
    4. 2010 Passat
    5. 2010 Fusion/Milan

    Oh, by the way, somebody mentioned that the Milan was the same car as the Fusion, just a higher fancy price. NOT. There is a few hundred dollars diffence and it shows up in a slightly nicer interior and sound deadening materials. I actually think the Milan is better looking but that is very subjective. Pretty much get what you pay for.
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    Thanks to everyone for your advice. It's clear that I have to move the Fusion higher up on my list. I'm looking for a 4 cylinder engine, if that helps.

    At this point I'm going to test drive:
    1. Camry
    2. Fusion
    3. Sonata 2010
    4. Sonata 2011
    5.????

    I'm concerned about the Camry's acceleration issue so I don't know if I'll buy one but it's worth testing out.

    Andy
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    edited February 2010
    I would rate the interior quality as Accord > Altima > Camry. BTW, I cannot believe Camry still has backlit display instead of illuminated display in places like the CD display.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I have owned a 2009 Camry Hybrid, I now own a 2010 Fusion Sport. The Ford is much quieter overall than the Camry could possibly be. On the highway, the road and wind noise is a whisper compared to how the Camry was, and this is even with the 18" low profile tires on the Fusion. Between the two, the fusion does not have a long enough track record, but so far it is looking good for reliability, but the Camry does have a long standing reliability record, but that is about as much good I can say for it. The ride is too soft for good handling, but with the proper tires and rims on a Fusion, the ride can be very comparable without loosing too much in the way of handling. The I4 Fusions are also showing better fuel economy, but hands down interior wise, the Fusion has better quality than Toyota does, they really slipped badly in that department. Put them side by side and really look and you begin to see the difference. I put 34K mile on the Camry, other than the sudden surge while slowing down, it was trouble free, engine wise. The sunroof would stick, and sometimes not close, it had horrible wind noise on the drivers side, the seating material was really thin, you could feel the springs in the seat cushion if you pressed your hand into them. The car developed rattles and squeaks within a couple months of driving, and handling on curves, or emergency swerves was horrible, it would wallow like a row boat. I now have nearly 12K on the fusion in 6 months, and I have not had a single complaint about any part of the car, well except for when my wife uses it and leaves junk in it. :cry:

    The one thing that I can say without a doubt that puts the Fusion well above the Camry is handling. I live out in the country where our roads are wishy washy, undulating pieces of crap. The Camry would be all over the road, and you couldn't let yourself be distracted for more than a moment or you would be in a ditch. I don't have this problem with the Ford, I can ease back and not worry that the car will start to wander all around, and when I have my wife and kids with me, like I do every day, that is a very important issue. As far as noise, even with the big 3.5 V6, this car is quiet, you get the low growling tone from the engine when you accelerate, but when at speed, you barely hear it, unless the radio is on, then you don't hear anything but the music. If you like your own music, and have a good library, the SYNC just cannot be beat, a $15 flash drive holds 16 Gig of music, and you can search, or have it play an artist or song just by saying the name, without taking your hands off the wheel. Just these few little things mentioned puts the Fusion above all else in my book.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I prefer the Milan's interior to the Fusion's especially pre-2010. The 2007 base Milan I looked at had a very tasteful black/camel interior with niceties like an analog clock in the dash, and just looked richer than the base Fusion (or even the Fusion SE). Also in pricing the two cars, I've found little difference between them when comparably equipped. For example, I think a power seat comes standard on the base Milan, but not the base Fusion. When I looked at new Fulans 18 months ago, the Milan had a package with alloys and some other stuff basically for free, and I didn't really see a significant difference in price compared to the Fusion, at least in the relatively basic I4 trim I was interested in.

    I too like the looks of the Milan better than the Fusion; the Fusion's snout has too much chrome for my taste, although I could live with it.
  • ctal1234ctal1234 Member Posts: 20
    edited February 2010
    I was in the market and drove a few cars over the past several weeks. Here's my rundown:

    1) Honda Accord EX-L (not "mid-size," but it competes with mid-size cars. It's what I bought. I thought the interior was head and shoulders above the other cars I drove and since that's where I'll be spending my time, that counts twice. The "sea of buttons" the car magazines complain about doesn't bother me at all. I could get a better deal on this than on the others too.)

    2) Subary Legacy 2.5 Premium (I liked the ride a lot and, despite some reviews, I like the look. I'm very tall and found it fairly cramped. I could barely drive one with a sunroof at all--I could feel my hair touching the ceiling.)

    3) Nissan Altima 2.5 S (I liked the exterior, but not the interior. I could have lived with it, but after a 10 minute drive my back started to ache. If not for the seat comfort, this might have been my no. 1 pick because I could get a better deal than on the Honda.)

    4) Toyota Camry LE (I have driven a Hybrid several times, but it was out of my price range. The LE was nothing special and a little short on headroom.)

    I didn't drive any domestic cars, mostly because where I live that's all you see and I'm not much of a joiner. Plus, I had a 1999 olds intrigue that was not nearly as durable as the competition. I want to wait and see how the domestic brands do for a while. I might have driven a 2011 Sonata, but I didn't know about them yet. There isn't a VW dealer within a hundred miles, or I might have driven a Passat, though I probably couldn't afford one.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    * miles - I'd like under 40k miles
    * Excellent condition - looks like new inside and out, no work needed, good tread on tires
    * Warranty - longer the better, preferably factory bumper-to-bumper warranty
    * No money out of pocket, meaning my budget is around $10k + T&L

    This means one thing. GM. You want a 3-4 year old GM car that has depreciated like a rock. Imports won't meet your budget and warranty requirements. GM started with a 100K drivetrain warranty in 2007, so the question is what midsize 2007 GM car can I get for $10K? It turns out, several in fact. And they often have traction control, stability control, side airbags, and all the other goodies because they originally were marketed as a semi-luxury/upscale model.(more options, more equipment).

    - 2007 Buick Lacrosse. This is a decent choice that can be had for around your price range. It is a much better car than a Sonata or the Fords, and blows the Kia right away. It originally sold for nearly $5K more so it should be built better.(think of it as a GM Camry - same specs and level of equipment, more or less - just worth half as much used)

    - 2007 Pontiac Grand Prix. It's not terribly exciting, but it again is a better car for $10K(or even $9K!) than most people would imagine. It gets good MPG, is safe, and has a nice floor-mounted shifter. 1,2,3,D all on a row so power shifting is stupidly simple. This in fact works better, IMO, than most of the stupid +/- arrangements. Volvo used to do this as well on their sedans and it made having an automatic not nearly as awful as it normally would be. Leaving it in 3rd while you passed a car or hit an onramp was normal behavior. Oh, and yes, that is actually 1st gear. Many automatics lock out manually selecting first.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Just curious, why did you compare the top-trim Accord and Legacy to the low-end Altima and Camry? The interior of the Altima would have been nicer in the SL, with leather. Also I am surprised you could get a better deal on the Accord EX-L than the Altima 2.5S. Also curious why you didn't check out the Mazda6 and the 2010 Sonata Limited.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    This means one thing. GM

    Well, as you could see by the cars I considered, it didn't mean GM at all. :shades:

    The old LaCrosse doesn't interest me. It often has side airbags and ESC/traction? Oh goody! But the Sonata has those standard, and every other car I looked at has at least six airbags standard. Maybe if I were a grandfather and retired... ;) And the old Grand Prix is really...old. Not to mention I think it's ugly. Not nearly as nice a car as the Fulan, or the Sonata or Mazda6. And I have enough intelligence to use a manumatic setup as on the Sonata and Mazda6. :P

    One GM mid-sizer I would be interested in as a used car is the new Regal, at least based on what I've read about it. But it will be awhile before those are available in the used car market. And I'd consider an Aura if it were not an orphan... as are the Pontiacs of course. They should be cheap!
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    here's a little tip GM does not want you to know, but I hate to break it to you but the GM powertrain coverage is the SAME as Toyota's and Honda's; let me explain

    GM brags, and I've been seeing commercials from them lately comparing the warranty of the Malibu to the Camry's and Accord's, saying that their powertrain warranty is 100k miles while Toyota and Honda's is 60k! what GM fails to mention in their commercials is the 5 years in front of that 100k! - when you think about it, GM is offering the same warranty as Toyota and Honda because there is also 5 years just like GM!

    That 100K miles GM is bragging about is just to make it look like their warranty is better than the rest but it isn't! why? because 80-85% of drivers will NOT have 100k miles on their car at the 5 year mark! the AVERAGE driver puts 15k miles on their cars in a year so at the end of 5 years, the AVERAGE driver has only 75k miles on their cars, and a good chunk don't even have that on it at that point!

    So for 80-85% of people the five years is going to come first before 100k miles, thus, GM's warranty is no better, or more precisely the same, then the 5 year powertrain coverage everyone else has! But of course, since they want to make a buck, they are not going to tell you otherwise ;)

    If anything, and of course you don't see any GM commercials comparing their products to Hyundai ;) Hyundai currently has the best powertrain warranty in the business with 10yrs/100k miles I believe :D

    Another comical commercial by GM is those commercials showing how their products have higher EPA mpg then Toyota or Honda, yet of course, they don't tell you that sometimes you don't get what the window sticker says and I still have not seen any reviews showing that GM gets better gas mileage then Honda and certainly not Toyota; also, it doesn't go to help their cause when last year Motortrend did a comparison of the Altima, Camry, Fusion, and Malibu hybrids and the Malibu came in last place of the four and I believe had the worst fuel econ of the four as well :sick: that kind of result doesn't exactly hit me with confidence that GM has the best fuel economy of the bunch ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    Tied with Kia and Mitsubishi. Plus whatever Toyota cooks up to shore up customer confidence--rumors are it will announce a longer warranty in March. I'd love to see them take a bold step and introduce the industry's first 10-year, 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty. THAT would make a statement as to Toyota's confidence in the reliability of their cars, and would stand out from all other automakers. Adding a 10/100k powertrain warranty would be ho-hum, me-too.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    yeah, I would love to see Toyota do that! that would def go a long way to show the American public how much confidence they have in their products!

    Because of some issues Nissan had on the 1st Gen CVT they put in the 1st Gen Murano (2003-2006) and 6th Gen Maxima (2004-2006), they just extended their powertrain coverage to 10yr/120k miles on all Nissan's equipped with CVT, regardless of what gen CVT you have, kinda of like a good faith gesture by Nissan to say, 'hey, we know there were some problems when the 1st Gen CVT came out but we've worked on the problems and the 2nd Gen CVT is good to go and were confident in the transmission'

    I got my letter from Nissan for my extended powertrain coverage for my 2010 Maxima about 2 months ago, which has the 2nd Gen CVT, and which is in almost all of their products now! So this new powertrain coverage applies to the majority of Nissan products! As, backy pointed out, Toyota should do this as well as a good faith move, considering what recently just happened! I hope Nissan makes that the standard powertrain warranty eventually on all their products, not just ones with CVT and makes it standard; they should if they, along with Toyota and Honda ever wants to compete against Hyundai's 10yr/100k mile warranty!

    For that matter, I'd like to see Honda get a 10yr/100k miles powertrain warranty!

    I second your Altima S vs SL comment; I test drove both and the leather interior is much nicer than the cloth; with the SL you even get better and softer material on the door panels and armrests! though the new cloth for 2010 in the S is nice, it is much softer to the touch then the 2009!

    Just My Two Cents :shades:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    GM brags, and I've been seeing commercials from them lately comparing the warranty of the Malibu to the Camry's and Accord's, saying that their powertrain warranty is 100k miles while Toyota and Honda's is 60k! what GM fails to mention in their commercials is the 5 years in front of that 100k! - when you think about it, GM is offering the same warranty as Toyota and Honda because there is also 5 years just like GM!

    So people who drive more than 30 miles/day (like my 60 mile round trip commute) burn through the Toyota or Honda warranty in 18 months and I will get much closer to the full 5 years of warranty with the GM product.

    Another comical commercial by GM is those commercials showing how their products have higher EPA mpg then Toyota or Honda, yet of course, they don't tell you that sometimes you don't get what the window sticker says

    Its a federally validated number to index the vehicle's fuel economy relative to its peers. If you drive up a mountain every day, no you won't see what is on the sticker. A bunch of people making up or "self reporting" that their XYZ got 147 mpg this one time going down to Florida doesn't really help my purchase decision.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    "So people who drive more than 30 miles/day (like my 60 mile round trip commute) burn through the Toyota or Honda warranty in 18 months and I will get much closer to the full 5 years of warranty with the GM product."

    as I said before, most people, at least the avg, don't put more than 15k miles a year on a car! if you by chance you do, then that stinks for you :P

    I luckily don't but even if you had a 60 mile commute for 5 days a week let's say, thats 300 miles a week, and 15,600 miles a year, so you def would not be out of warranty only after 18months ;) but if you think the GM's warranty is better then go right ahead and think that, that's your business! you still wouldn't be out of warranty till just a few months before 5 years, I don't know where you got that 18 months from but it isn't correct!

    how I don't go by the EPA numbers either but it just makes me laugh when the GM commercials claim they have better mpg than Toyota and Honda when their own hybrid, which in of itself is suppose to be known for fuel economy by nature, could not beat the competition in professional comparison test with fuel econ in their hybrid yet they have commercials claiming they could beat the competition in fuel economy, I need a good chuckle from time to time! :D
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It's the rear end of the Milan that I really like especially compared to the Fusion. The Fusion taillights seems like they're cut in half or something. I wish they had kept the round analog clock as that was a real touch of class IMO.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, impractical as I think an analog clock is in a car (harder to read the time at a glance), it does look upscale in a retro kind of way. Also I like the convenience of a digital clock with a "reset" button, which I can press when I hear the on-the-hour tone from my local news station. Although some cars have started to drop that feature, in the name of cost savings--how much could it cost??
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yes, impractical as I think an analog clock is in a car (harder to read the time at a glance),

    Maybe a little until you get used to it. I have one in our QX4 and I don't find it a problem at all but I do remember having to get used to it. That little button probably a $1, if that. I think I would fork over that much more to keep it, wouldn't you? Sometimes the accountants can't see the forest for the trees.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    That little button probably a $1, if that. I think I would fork over that much more to keep it, wouldn't you? Sometimes the accountants can't see the forest for the trees.

    The phrase I heard was: "taking $1 out of a car often involves putting $100 on the hood of the car."

    If you make the car suck in an effort to make it cheaper, the amount of money the OEM has to spend on incentives to move the car far exceeds the savings. GM is learning this one and making strides.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited February 2010
    The old LaCrosse doesn't interest me. It often has side airbags and ESC/traction? Oh goody! But the Sonata has those standard, and every other car I looked at has at least six airbags standard.

    But the thing is, a 3 year old Sonata isn't built nearly as well nor does it have the features that the midsize GM and Ford cars have. It seems a bit foolish to spend $15K on a new Civic versus a $15K used Acura TL(as an example). The thing that I didn't like about any of the smaller budget cars is that they well, FEEL like the tin cans and flimsy econoboxes that they are. In fact, I'd rather have an old Tarus or LeSabre over even a Civic for that reason. Cheap cars always will feel and drive like cheap cars. Yet there are literally dozens of good used cars for $8-12K out there that are or were upscale or near-luxury. They hold up better, are larger and safer, and have features that most of the budget cars just don't have.(leather, traction control, sunroof, premium sound, dual zone ac/heat, power seats...).

    Oh - and the trick to not being an "old man" in a GM car is to get one in a dark color, preferably dark blue or black, and then "black out" the chrome on it. Beige and tan and silver and white DO scream old and rental, but black and a bit of body kit or better yet, anodized black rims - that's not "Old man".

    Oh - you can add another car to that short list, and this one might actually get your interest. A Pontiac GTO. It doesn't get great MPG(I'd rate it as so-so), but it does fit all of the other criteria. Cheap, reliable, a kick in the pants to drive, and the looks are just fine. Note - the 2004 with the 5.7 LS1 engine and manual DID get 30mph highway. 350hp and 30mpg? Sign me up. Complete "sleeper" car, too, since nobody expects it to go that fast.

    Black GTO

    Not even close to "Old man" :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Some people, like me, would rather buy a new econobox than a used anything (except for maybe some rare or exotic cars). You can have my GTO I'll pass for that new Camry. :D
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    but if you think the GM's warranty is better then go right ahead and think that

    It's obvious you're a GM hater so logic may be difficult for you when discussing it. However, anyway you cut it a 5yr/100k warranty is better than a 5yr/60k warranty. Just because it may not be applicable to everyone is not the point. It is a better warranty. I personally think it's kind of silly advertising it the way they do but bottom line it is a little better warranty.

    It's rare, since the 2008 revamp, that a normal driver cannot meet or beat the current EPA estimates for new vehicles. I say normal driver because someone testing for an auto magazine is usually driving the vehicle in a very hard manner measuring stopping distances, speed through cones, 0-60 times etc. etc. Hardly representative how an average person drives and who cares even a little bit about fuel economy. Most of the people on these forums usually report much better results than the EPA numbers.

    Your insistence that manufacturers point out in their advertising where they are "not as good" as other manufacturers would probably earn you a failing grade in marketing class. Of course they are only going to include items which reflect them in a good light. To assume otherwise is naive.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    "Your insistence that manufacturers point out in their advertising where they are "not as good" as other manufacturers would probably earn you a failing grade in marketing class. Of course they are only going to include items which reflect them in a good light. To assume otherwise is naive"

    Of course I don't expect manufactures to point out flaws or things that don't put them in a good light, I never said they should or will, I was just pointing out that in their commercials, as a clever marketing strategy, they don't mention the 5 yrs, only the 100k miles, so to a avg joe who doesn't know jack about cars, which I doubt any people on this forum would be considering most of us are car fanatics, it makes it sound like GM's warranty is substantially better to Toyota's and Honda's which it isn't, the only case I could possibly think of where the GM warranty would give you a little bit more time, is if your a person who puts a tremendous amount of miles on your car each year, I'd say well over 15k!

    The warranties, regardless of companies really comes down to what kind of commute you have which determines how many miles go on the car! If your a person, who puts a lot more than 15k miles a year on a car, such as engineerboy pointed out, then your obviously going to use up the 100k miles long before the 5 year period, likewise, if your like me, who is lucky if you put 12k miles a year on a car, the 5 yr period is going to come a lot sooner than 60k or 100k miles ;) so in the latter case, the 60 or 100k miles is not going to make a difference! that was all I was trying to say, we don't have to get all sarcastic and mad over every comment someone says ;)

    But it doesn't matter, GM, Toyota, and Honda, can't compete with Hyundai's or Nissan's powertrain coverage! ;)

    Also, whether you have GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, etc, I've found over the years that you really have to read the fine print in regards to all your warranties, usually they are pretty good, but I've run into a few cases, especially when I used to be with GM, I got the baloney, "oh, thats not covered under warranty because its normal wear and tear" - I'd like to know who decides and determines what constitutes normal wear and tear and how do I know your not giving me BS so you can make a few bucks off me :confuse: ;)

    By the way, I wouldn't call myself a GM hater, more of GM frustrated, disgruntled, and disappointed after being with them for 25 years and having 8 consistent problem after problem models from Chevy, Pontiac, and Buick all which needed thousands upon thousands of dollars to keep running all before 80k miles! If you had to deal with what I did, you'd be a little disgruntled with GM too! Despite all that, I don't want to see GM fail! Competition is good and if you check out the GM posts on here, I've posted a lot of the negatives and problems with GM I have had, I have also posted some of the good and positive things GM has done since taking all our money and declaring bankruptcy! I try to give constructed criticism on here as much as possible :shades: But it is going to take many years to come till I could ever trust a GM product again! I will say though, that Ford has impressed me of late; the Fusion competes very well with the Japanese and Korean competition and I enjoyed the test drive of it very much!

    You'll find, I am a lot nicer about GM and Ford then some of the anti-japanese haters over on the Toyota forums, several of which have openly posted that they are happy and delighted at Toyota and its owners troubles and that they all deserved it because all of us who buy a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai all hate the US and are anti-American :confuse: :sick: :confuse: :sick:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Just pointing out that you were wrong in your assessment of the warranty being better or worse than others. As far as GM being "clever" you're right but you kind of insinuate they are being deceptive to the "average joe car buyer". I guess I give the average Joe a little more credit. Now the "dumb Joe car buyer" you may be right. But those have a whole set of problems of which the powertrain warranty is one of the least.

    Lots of people around large metro areas drive 20k a year easily, my wife for one. Even though here commute is only 26 miles each way, she also goes out to lunch, goes shopping and the occassional weekend trip to relatives in the adjacent state. All that adds up to over 20k a year. So having the powertrain guaranteed for 5/100k would last her the full five years. Meanwhile she would be done with the normal 5/60k in 3 years. So, in effect all those warranties are what they say they are either for anyone driving like my wife does. I would dare say that the majority of my neighbors, based on they work, put between 15-25k a year on their cars. It's just that way when you live around a big metro area.

    Bottom line the GM warranty does apply to a lot of people contrary to what you were saying.

    I too have had my fill of GM cars(after owning around 15 of them over the years) and it will take some time of excellent reliability ratings for me to go back to them if they, in fact, are still in business. Regardless of my feelings, I like to be fair.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    your right, I try to be fair as well, and your right there are a lot of people who commute and put a lot of miles on their cars who would benefit from that, but there are a equivalent amount of people, myself included, who don't put a ton of miles on their cars in a year and thus would not benefit from it; so lets compromise and say 50/50 would benefit :D

    after my experience with GM, 5yr/100k miles would not get me back into one of their products, not anytime soon, anyway! I'd take the 5yr/60k from Honda and Toyota over GM's any day, but luckily I don't have any of their products right now so I don't have to worry!

    if Toyota was smart, as backy pointed out earlier, they should extend their powertrain coverage to 10yr/100k like Hyundai as a sign of good faith that they have confidence in their products despite the recent evidence to the contrary!

    plus, you can get even better coverage then GM's with the 10yr/100k from Hyundai or the 10yr/120k from Nissan; plus, you'll have higher resale values over GM with either of those manufactures ;)

    peace out :shades:
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    edited March 2010
    Yeb, I put about 9-10k miles/ year here in Philly. When we go to lunch, we usually switch turn to drive. Also, I try to get stuff done on my way to/from work.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Pretty much agree but I would even estimate that it's more like 65-70% that don't drive 20k a year. All I'm saying is that 30-35% is a pretty large number.

    I'm thinking that Hyundai will eventually reduce their warranty to maybe 4yrs/60k and powertrain to maybe 6/72k as their reputation as a quality manufacturer grows in the marketplace. History has shown that it's the second pier group that has to have the long warranties to attract buyers. VW just reduced their b to b warranty from 4 yrs to 3yrs and I think that was a direct result of their reputation getting better. Sure they offer free service to 36k but at 40k they have a $400 service on their DSG trannie that hits you between the eyes. Mitsubushi has a 5yr warranty and I think Volvo has one now. Both of these car makers have been suffering the last few years and I think they have upped their warranties to attract people afraid to buy thier vehicles. I just don't see the industry, in general, drastically extending those kind of liabilities.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I have no problem with the GM warranty itself, since it clearly gives you both the time and mileage limitations. But considering that almost all mfr warranties allow no more than 12K miles per year (3/36, 5/60, 10/100, etc.), saying "100K" in an advertisement without including the "5 yr" part sure seems deceptive to me. The average consumer would naturally conclude that it's the same ratio as other warranties (12k per year) which would yield just over 8 yrs of coverage, not 5.

    It would be very easy to just say 5 yr/100K miles instead of just 100K miles so yes, I think it's somewhat deceptive to advertise it that way.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited March 2010
    I personally have not seen a GM advertisement in which both the 100k and 5 yrs was not mentioned. If anyone can shed light on this it would be nice because I would doubt the legal staff would let them just mention the 100k without also mentioning the 5 yrs.

    Now, could more emphasis be put on the 100k? Possibly, however I haven't even seen that. I googled print ads and also found a video of the GM certified ad which clearly states that it is a 100k or 5 yrs warranty. Just curious since we are basing this discussion on someone saying they only mention the 100k miles.
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