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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Most cars--especially in the midsize sedan class--have reliability and quality far beyond what would've been considered "average" twenty years ago. Manufacturers that couldn't meet these baseline expectations have been driven out of the market. I have seen no objectively verifiable evidence that either the Sonata or the Optima are in any way substandard in these areas. Perhaps not "best in class" but certainly midpack or better. There are a few dissatisfied customers--as there are for any brand--but in the aggregate, both cars are perfectly acceptable when it comes to reliability and assembly quality.

    When people complain about Kia or Hyundai quality, they generally are speaking without personal experience--or at least without experience related to the current models from these brands. I would not hesitate to purchase a vehicle from either of these two brands on the basis of reliability or overall quality.

    Dealer service, however, is another matter. Hyundai and Kia dealers in my area tend to come and go, with alarming frequency. The same is true of Subaru, Suzuki, and Mitsubishi. Without easy access to a trustworthy, stable and modern dealership, I had to write off these brands in my most recent search, and wound up buying a Honda.

    If the dealership situation stabilizes locally, you can bet that I will seriously consider the Sonata and the Optima (and the Fusion, and several others) when the time comes to replace my wife's '02 Accord.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I'm just reporting what the kids say. Other crappy cars that the youngsters have noted are Saturn Ion and some Dodge/Chrysler cars (apparently they still make cars, who knew... ;) ). Oh yeah and then there is Daewoo.

    Their impressions are partly based on cars friends of theirs have had. I do have to add that the one time I had a rental Optima it was horrible and the next time I was renting I said I did not want a Kia, please! I passed on the free "upgrade" and took a Mazda3 :shades: .
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I do have dual exhausts on my '07 Mazda6 I4 with all of about 156hp and man do they make it fly.


    It does look nicer with the fake dual exhaust, though. They dropped that from the new 4 cyl, I think.

    I probably should have gotten the rear wing spoiler, even though I don't like the look, as that'd make it go even faster.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    It does look nicer with the fake dual exhaust, though. They dropped that from the new 4 cyl, I think.

    It is fake....I love the way it looks on my 2005 as well. I wish the 2009+ Mazda6 has the dual exhaust on the 4 cyl just like the 6 cyl. Looks so much better.

    I'm getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on a new 2010 Mazda6 i Touring Plus. I just wish they made is in the 6-speed :-(
  • jkobty2jkobty2 Posts: 210
    I bought s 2009 mazda6 last year when they first came out. I was impressed with the styling, ride and handling and nice interior. I have had no real issues with it after one year. Only complaint is an annoying engine noise (tapping or clicking) on low rpm takeoff, and a light knock at idle. Of course mazda says this is normal.
    Comparatively my now 11 year old Daewoo Leganza still runs as smooth as day one. the 2.2L engine in the Leganza has better low end takeoff than the mazda, I do not have to push it as hard to get the same acceleration. And even after 11 years it still sounds better than the one year old Mazda. Only scheduled maintenance for 11 years. Changed the timing belt twice right on schedule every 100,000 KM. The most reliable
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 KC MetroPosts: 6,882
    my, my, my but look what the cat drug in! Long time no talk to!

    You've already answered my real question for you, that being do you still own your Leganza?

    How much did that '09 Maz6 run you up there in Ontario?

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • jkobty2jkobty2 Posts: 210
    Hey dude. The mazda cost me $29,000 Canadian dollars. I got the GT model with the luxury package which includes the Bose, Bluetooth, nice 18" rims.
    I know it is probably cheaper in the states even after you factor in the dollar exchange rate.
    It is a really nice car. I just wish it had a Korean engine in it :)
    I wish I had driven the V6 model before I made a decision. But that is also about 3 grand more.
    The Mazda is our new family car, but I am finding it too big for my everyday work commute. I am thinking of giving it to my wife in a year when her current lease expires, and then get me whatever nice small Korean car is available at the time.
    My current choice is the KIA Forte Koup SX. It is one hot pocket rocket.
    The Leganza is currently being driven by my sister. I still think it is the best built car in the 20th century. And it still looks great 11 year later.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 KC MetroPosts: 6,882
    the 1999 Daewoo Leganza, man. And how well you take care of it. And it is a midsize car that fits nicely in to this Edmunds thread.

    Here is the Forte I would buy, but I'd get a red one. Not necessarily with a manual tranny but with a sunroof and capable stereo.


    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • jkobty2jkobty2 Posts: 210
    yes it is nice, but I found a big difference with the attention to detail and material quality between the sedan and the Koup.
    1. Koup has nicer styling both front and rear especially the sx trim
    2. Koup has nicer leather sports seats with red stitching. Looks really upscale
    3. The Dashboard in the Koup has softer plastics, also more upscale.
    4. The controls and buttons in the koup feel nicer to the touch, also more upscale materials.

    You know me, I look at the detail. Plus I am having a midlife crisis, and I need a car that looks sporty. :)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 KC MetroPosts: 6,882
    oh, I didn't know that you'd already looked at both models. And I have been corrected about the manual tranny problems in these new Kia's. I would've taken those complaints with a grain of salt, anyway, until test-driving the cars myself. I remember the shifters on both the '99 Sephia and the '01 Sportage 4X4, and both needed a bit getting used to. Not a lot, but a bit. But apparently these are non-issues to the person who corrected me. I kind of thought that they would end up being much a bit about nothing.

    Both of my Kia's were fine to shift, never had a mechanical problem with either rig's clutch or tranny, either.

    Yeah, the Forte Koup is one hot lookin' Mama, the car is smokin'! Should mix in well with yer midlife crisis, man.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • Just as a suggestion, search "real world prices" buy owners
    for the car your looking at, (search the net). I also made a post
    about how I do my car buying business, I was called "hardazz"
    by a fellow forum member (which is not an issue). I don't think
    everyone wants or can do it this way, it takes a little "guts" but
    I do have plenty of that, i.e. (US military) debating. Look back
    to my comment on this thread and read some replies!

    nov 28 2009 (9:36 pm)

    Feel free to reply, I have big enough shoulders to handle any
    good or bad responses.

    I hope everyone will enjoy a great holiday season and are able
    to share LOVE with family and friends! Gary
    Lets think about our brave service people abroad that have their
    lives on the line for us and the whole free world everyday of the
    year. Extra holiday greeting to you, please return to us safe and
    sound, thanks very much for protecting us with your very life, "LOVE
    YOU" !!!!!
  • Never mind...I enlarged and then it made some sense.
  • jkobty... long time no see. Seeing you post brought up the good ole days of the Leganza vs. Accord "discussions" we used to have! I am so amazed that the Leganza is still in your family. We have been through about 20 cars in the same time frame!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 KC MetroPosts: 6,882
    really, man, I think that this man deserves some kudos for his 1999 Daewoo Leganza and the fact that it's still here and running well. It shows that someone with some passion for a rig can really make a difference in that rig's lifetime. jkobty has pain-stakingly(I'll be you can tell us some stories about that, jkobty!!) shown some luv to his Leganza and maintained/repaired whatever it's needed down through the years so it can still be running competently today. That is awesome, who of us can reject his statement that this car is the car of the 20th century, then? If all of the elements that make up a great car are there for jkobty, and they're workng for him on this car, then so be it, it's the car of the 21st Century. Rock On! That's concentration and that's luv for a particular car! And that's perseverance as well!

    jkobty, I must tell you, I've strayed to a Japanese car for my favorite rig! It's a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in Rally Red metallic paintjob and automatic CVT transmission. Titanium paddle shifters, 650-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo, leather-wrapped gearknob and steering wheel, sunroof, foglights and wraparound bodykit, this car has me firmly by the shorthairs and is rocking my world. I simply love it and will give it whatever it needs to keep it running optimally. :shades:

    With me it's nothing nationalistic that can run my automotive world, it is simply the best car wins for that particular year or point in time.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,755
    I own two Accord sedans--an 02 LX 5 MT and an 08 EXL navi 5MT. Love both cars. I had some lemons over the years from VW, GM, and Ford, and so every day I get in one of our Accords I'm a happy man.

    Mr. Soichiro Honda was an engineer, and a good one, and it seems to me that at Honda the engineers maybe have more power than at many other car companies.

    When I test drove a Camry back in 02 when I bought our first Accord I could feel and sense the difference. The Camry seemed fancier, but the Accord had much sharper handling, and a nicer to shift manual transmission.

    Buying the 02 Accord got rid of one of our lemons (a first year 2000 Focus--a nightmare beyond belief), but it wasn't until 2008 when we could get rid of our 1988 Oldsmobile 98, which wasn't as much of a lemon the Focus, but was mainly just a worn out old car.

    Our 02 has only 60,000 miles on it, and a lot of life is left. It doesn't, however, have many safety features found on most cars today, like abs, stability, etc. I was planning on waiting until the next generation Accord arrives, probably in 2013, to replace the 02. And that's probably what we'll do.

    But the 2011 Sonata really gotten my attention. I like the styling of it a lot. And then I found out a little bit about Hyundai's new direct injection engine for it--which not only has more power, but is expected to get 35 mpg on the hwy! That's the same as a Honda Fit! The rest of the Sonata package looks impressive on paper as well, with things like bluetooth available even on the entry model Sonata (love the bluetooth on our 08 Accord).

    Anyway, the new Sonata does look impressive in terms of style, features, and performance on paper:

    Whether it can really be a competitor to the Accord I doubt for the following reasons--I still think Honda's quality is the top in its price area, I think the Accord's suspension is excellent, the Accord's steering is precise, and I don't think anyone makes a manual transmission as nice as that on the current Accord for a similar price.

    Anyway, just wondering whether the new Sonata is going to provide real competition or not. It seems like in terms of engine technology that Hyundai may in some ways have gone beyond Honda already, which is a big shock to me. When will Accords get direct injection engines? Are there any drawbacks to this technology?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    And then I found out a little bit about Hyundai's new direct injection engine for it--which not only has more power, but is expected to get 35 mpg on the hwy!

    The Fusion S gets 34 mpg hwy. Given the rounding, the difference may be insignificant.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    The Fusion Sport with the 3.5 V6 can get 31 MPG on the highway. Surprised me when it did.

    So if Honda is so great, tell me why is it out of 14 reviews, it only scores an 8.5, yet the Fusion scores a 9.2 out of 86 reviews? Don't be so sure that the Accord is as great as you make it out to be, the Fusion is a damned fine car now, and compared to a Camry, is a much finer car too. IOW don't get tunnel vision thinking only the Honda is great, Ford is right up there and ahead of Toyota in quality and reliability. Hyundai also makes a good car, at least the Veracruz I own has been a great car, the wipers could use an improvement, they are proprietary to the Veracruz only and hard to get, but when in good shape work great. Not much of a complaint is it. It is snowing today, and it is days like this that remind me that I haven't changed the damned things yet.:mad: Why is it the drivers wiper is the one that always seems to go bad? :confuse:
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,755
    Fusion gets 34!? Wow. That is good. I think the Accord is still at 31. The Accord is a little bigger, but it's a shock to not see the Accord at or near the top of the mark when it comes to mpg.

    One area where the Honda may--or may not--be ahead of some others is for steering and handling. I think most cars in this class have gone to an electric system, which saves cost, weight, money, complexity, etc., but as far as I hear doesn't give quite as good of a feel for the road as a traditional hydraulic system, which is what I think the Accord still uses.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Notice that it's the Fusion S and the Fusion S only that gets 34mpg. It's the mpg economy model that is made for higher mpg by utilizing high mpg tires(usually harder and narrower) and some weight saving stuff which I'm not all that up on. The other Fusion I4 models get about the same as the Accord I believe.

    From what I've read, the neat thing about the new Sonata is that it's supposed to get 35mpg on all versions and with more hp than all the others in it's class except for the Passat. The Passat Turbo takes premium fuel or at least it's recommended I think. So if it works well they will be far ahead of the competition IMO from a drivetrain aspect.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    . . . unless Ford can find a way to put an EcoBoost four into the Fusion within a year or so.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    That would be sweet as well.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,755
    I'm out of the loop--what's the ecoboost 4?

    Impressive economy from Ford's 6!
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Edmunds article on the EcoBoost four-cylinder claims 230 bhp from a 2.0L engine, with the fuel economy of a normally aspirated four.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    From what I've read, the neat thing about the new Sonata is that it's supposed to get 35mpg on all versions

    If true, then that would be a bigger achievement, unless they are just equipping all of them with high mpg tires, etc. :)

    Speaking of that and the Fusion S, has anyone seen any braking tests comparing the S to another version. I'm guessing if those high mpg tires might mean less effective braking. I suppose the high mpg tires might also negatively affect handling.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The Fusion Sport with the 3.5 V6 can get 31 MPG on the highway.

    I think every car exceeds it EPA highway mpg figure, when driven at moderate and steady freeway speeds. If that Sonata is rated 35, then on a freeway cruise maybe it'll get 40.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160 due here next Fall. But from the recently announced specs how is this new entry going to compete in this category with a 188hp 2.4L SIDI engine that is supposed to get 30mph Highway?

    To me this vehicle would have be be drop dead gorgeous, Lexus/BMW quality inside and out and handle like it was on rails otherwise it will be killed by just about every other midsizer on the road including GM's own Malibu.

    Why? The rest of the industry has V6's with 250+ hp and fuel economy ratings in the 30 mpg range. The Sonata is dropping its V6's in favor of offering better fuel economy approaching 40 mpg. This sounds so 1995-ish on GM's part. Do they think that Buick buyers are stupid? How would this launch go if gas spikes up over $3.50 next summer?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The current 2.5L Camry gets a real world 37-39 mpg at moderate highway cruising speeds of ~65 mph. I agree that every vehicle now can exceed the very conservative EPA numbers.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,755
    Hmmm....I guess so. My 08 Accord is rated at 31 hwy, and 30-31 is about what I get--but that's at 75 mpg, ac on, 4 passengers, + luggage.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep that's a lot of weight, draw on the engine and above 70 mph drag is a much bigger factor. That's what the new EPA values are supposed to represent, typical or even worst-case scenarios.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    The rest of the industry has V6's with 250+ hp and fuel economy ratings in the 30 mpg range

    Not to be picky but can you name one V6 w/250+ hp that is rated at 30mpg or better by the EPA? I'm not talking real world cause that can be all over the map but actual rated by EPA at 30 or better.

    I totally agree about the Buick. GM had better start matching up w/ the competition with Buick or it's going to be history. You gotta have something special if you're going to try to market yourself as a semi premium brand like they are trying to do with the LaCrosse especially when you've got a negative perception to live down.
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