Midsize Sedans 2.0

backy

benjaminh said:

In terms of EPA combined mpg, the here's how I think things stand for 2016 for the base models of midsize cars with auto transmissions

Regal: 23
Fusion: 26 (or, if you pay extra for the 1.5T) 28
Malibu: 27
Dart: 27
200: 28
Camry: 28
Passat: 30
Sonata: 30
Accord: 31
Mazda6: 31
Altima: 31

Well, since you quoted the optional 1.5T for the Fusion, it's worth noting that the optional 1.6T on the Sonata gets 32 mpg combined (the Optima with the same engine probably gets the same). Or if you want real great FE, you could go with the Passat TDI... hmmm... or maybe not!

imidazol97

benjaminh said:

In terms of EPA combined mpg, the here's how I think things stand for 2016 for the base models of midsize cars with auto transmissions

Regal: 23
Fusion: 26 (or, if you pay extra for the 1.5T) 28
Malibu: 27
Dart: 27
200: 28
Camry: 28
Passat: 30
Sonata: 30
Accord: 31
Mazda6: 31
Altima: 31

Your figure for the Malibu 2014/15 is wrong. It's 25/29/36. So the 27 should be a 29.

I have a Malibu and it just gave 38.3 on a 160 mile trip on I75 to Cincinnati to 2 car shows on recent Sunday with about 10 miles of city driving to park, get somewhere to eat, and then to the late Sunday weekly cruise in. That's at the speed limit all the way to near downtown and AC running to have a happy wife. LOL.
My total mileage over local and mixed driving and all is 32.7 right now, which lends credulity to the 29 for mixed driving estimate by the EPA.

With 195 HP and 191 lb-ft torque, it's a very nice car to drive and has a road feel that must be from its German roots from the original chassis designed for and used by several GM models in Europe. Has a tight but well-controlled ride without being brutal and never loses its composure on any road surface.

explorerx4

Imidazol97, Your Malibu is getting better than the EPA mileage? Your car is definitely on the list
My Fusion is getting better than the EPA mileage, too. Oops.

roadburner

0-100 is a better metric; one thing that can distort 0-60 times is the number of shifts required. I think that in today's performance environment, a 0-100 time of 11 seconds or less qualifies a car as truly being "fast."

m6user

The EPA avg for my 2013 RDX AWD is 22 I think.  Over the past 15k miles the computer says 24.4.  

imidazol97

explorerx4 said:

Imidazol97, Your Malibu is getting better than the EPA mileage? Your car is definitely on the list
My Fusion is getting better than the EPA mileage, too. Oops.

I'm not clear on the point of your post. What is it?
And what does the "Oops" mean?

explorerx4

Cars that get better than EPA are more likely to get tested.

nyccarguy

I know not everybody follows the Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous thread here, so just wanted to post some numbers for the Legacy since I've owned it exactly 1 year today.

2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Limited
Total Vehicle Miles after 1 year: 18,962
Maintenance: 7,744 miles - Full Synthetic Oil & Filter Change. Tire Rotation. $0 (picked up by my salesman as part of "the deal." (Rye Subaru)

14,331 miles - Full Synthetic Oil & Filter Change. Tire Rotation. Rear Differential Drained & Filled with 75 w90 Full Synthetic Gear Oil. $253.55 (Rye Subaru)

Average MPG: 26
Best MPG: 28.9
Fuel Cost per Mile Driven: .101
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

suydam

For an AWD vehicle that's pretty good FE. Does it require premium fuel? Our Forester didn't. I'm about to take my Honda Accord in for its 3rd oil change. So far the maintenance minder seems to light up just shy of 9000 miles.

nyccarguy

No. The Legacy sucks down good old 87 Octane (RUG). Given the somewhat leisurely pace that it accelerates at, I was expecting about 30 - 31 MPG. But once the white stuff starts falling, AWD is worth more to me than a few MPG. This is the internet, so I do HAVE to COMPLAIN about SOMETHING

suydam

Took my Honda Accord in for an oil change and got a '14 Accord Sport as loaner. It doesn't seem to me to handle any differently than my EX-L. Suspension is firm but so is mine -- a Honda characteristic you either like or hate. I do miss push button start and the moonroof! Service cost is expensive -- I'm glad the Encore's first 2 years are free. There is some software update which takes time -- hence the overnight loan.

berri

Sounds like things haven't changed much from the old Neon.

suydam

Third service for my Accord EX-L at almost 27,000 miles. Everything completely routine. Tires and brake pads are fine. Had to replace the batteries in the key fobs at $3 each. So far, definitely the no drama vehicle.

sda

suydam said:

Third service for my Accord EX-L at almost 27,000 miles. Everything completely routine. Tires and brake pads are fine. Had to replace the batteries in the key fobs at $3 each. So far, definitely the no drama vehicle.

Did you replace the key fob batteries because they were weak or just as preventive maintenance? $3 for each is very reasonable. Did the dealer install them? 48000 on my 13 EX. Other than regular maintenance, brakes, tires, battery(s) all original and in good shape.

suydam

A little warning appeared on the dash -- KEY BATT LOW. Both keys. Serviceman said it may have been a batch of defective batteries because they usually last longer. They changed them out. I'm not going to quibble about $3. No big deal, but you can't start the car without them! Do you have the push button start as well?

berri

I've liked the Honda's I've owned, but their maintenance costs, regardless of where I was living, always seemed high compared to the Toyota, Ford or GM vehicles I also owned.

benjaminh

berri said:

I've liked the Honda's I've owned, but their maintenance costs, regardless of where I was living, always seemed high compared to the Toyota, Ford or GM vehicles I also owned.

My 3 Hondas have had much lower maintenance costs than any other cars I've ever owned.
For instance, in my almost 8 years and 75,000 miles of owning our 2008 Accord EXL, it's basically been oil changes, plus one set of tires, and then brake pads front and rear.

berri

Homda dealers seem notorious for trying to push all kinds of maintenance on you. But I'm pretty sure Honda has quicker fluid change requirements than most other mainstream brands. They even require brake fluid changes every "two" years. My CRV has fairly frequent differential change requirements compared to my kid's Highlander. But my Honda's have been pretty good as far as repairs go, albeit not quite as reliable as my overall Toyota experiences. I've owned several of both brands over the past decade.

ab348

berri said:

Homda dealers seem notorious for trying to push all kinds of maintenance on you.

My old girlfriend used to get ripped off IMO by the Honda dealer locally every time she brought her car in for service. They would recommend services that she would always agree to far too often. What should have just been a lube/oil/filter change often mushroomed into hundreds of dollars in charges.

akirby

You should replace the brake fluid every 2 years, although hardly anyone actually does it (me included). It's hygroscopic and absorbs water which can eventually lead to rust and brake fade under high heat.

Kirstie_H

A reporter is looking to interview a car shopper who had been looking to buy a diesel car but decided against it, and either chose something else or is still shopping for for a non-diesel.
Please email a few lines about your decision to PR@edmunds.com before October 2, 2015.

sda

suydam said:

A little warning appeared on the dash -- KEY BATT LOW. Both keys. Serviceman said it may have been a batch of defective batteries because they usually last longer. They changed them out. I'm not going to quibble about $3. No big deal, but you can't start the car without them! Do you have the push button start as well?

It does. From what I read in the owner's manual is that you can still start the car if the battery in the fob is weak by holding the fob close to the Start button. I think on my next service I will replace the fob battery as a measure of preventive maintenance. One thing I do know, is that the keyless entry/start/stop spoiled me quickly. When I drive our Pilot, I have reached for the locked door handle or reached for the Start button only to be reminded I need to take the keys out of my pocket!

sda

ab348 said:

berri said:

Homda dealers seem notorious for trying to push all kinds of maintenance on you.

My old girlfriend used to get ripped off IMO by the Honda dealer locally every time she brought her car in for service. They would recommend services that she would always agree to far too often. What should have just been a lube/oil/filter change often mushroomed into hundreds of dollars in charges.

I don't think Honda has lock on this practice. The VW and GM dealerships I have had service our previous cars did the same--up sell. Unfortunately my wife took the Pilot to be serviced about 6 months ago just before a trip she was going to take. I was out of town and unable to take it in for service like I normally do. They successfully made the case to her the additional services (not necessary or critical) were indeed needed and they got her on the hook. What should have been a $40 service ended up around $275. No real harm done, yet a quick reminder to know what services are required to prevent potentially being taken advantage of.

roadburner

akirby said:

You should replace the brake fluid every 2 years, although hardly anyone actually does it (me included). It's hygroscopic and absorbs water which can eventually lead to rust and brake fade under high heat.

A two year brake fluid change interval is a minimum for my cars- and if I'm taking one to the track I make sure it has had a change within the last six months.

thebean

sda said:

I don't think Honda has lock on this practice. The VW and GM dealerships I have had service our previous cars did the same--up sell. Unfortunately my wife took the Pilot to be serviced about 6 months ago just before a trip she was going to take. I was out of town and unable to take it in for service like I normally do. They successfully made the case to her the additional services (not necessary or critical) were indeed needed and they got her on the hook. What should have been a $40 service ended up around $275. No real harm done, yet a quick reminder to know what services are required to prevent potentially being taken advantage of.

Every car repair place my wife has taken her car to has tried to pull that stuff.  Luckily, she is cheap and never falls for it.  But, she is tired of it, so since I have retired, she wants me to do the auto service stuff.  Fine by me.  That buys me extra brownie points.  

suydam

I doubt you need to change the key fob batteries unless the dash sign comes on. I have friends with Nissans that are 5 years old and they haven't had to change them yet. I think this may just be a fluke.

berri

My practice with these on commission service reps is to ask them to show me where its required in the manufacturer's manual, not their dealership handout. Usually backs them right off.

benjaminh

The 4 top selling midsize cars for Sept:

Camry: 34,487

Accord: 33,641

Fusion: 24,942

Altima: 24,224

ral2167

If Accord had a better blind spot monitoring system, or satellite radio availability on lower line models, it might get to number 1.

akirby

It will take a couple more generations for Fusion to get close to Camcord. You have to build up a strong base of repeat buyers and the plant capacity to sustain the higher volume.

thebean

ral2167 said:

If Accord had a better blind spot monitoring system, or satellite radio availability on lower line models, it might get to number 1.

Have you used the Accord Lane Watch feature for more than a test drive?  I've used it for 10 months and think it's outstanding.  I don't know what you think is wrong with it, but every Accord owner I have talked to loves it.  What would you have them do with it?

robr2

thebean said:

ral2167 said:

If Accord had a better blind spot monitoring system, or satellite radio availability on lower line models, it might get to number 1.

Have you used the Accord Lane Watch feature for more than a test drive?  I've used it for 10 months and think it's outstanding.  I don't know what you think is wrong with it, but every Accord owner I have talked to loves it.  What would you have them do with it?

He would like a true BLIS system like other manufacturers use instead of just one side. I'm guessing Honda wasn't interested in licensing the technology from Ford so they came up with their own.

akirby

My issue is it only works on one side, requires a turn signal and it requires looking down at a screen and having to process the picture, whereas Ford's BLIS system only requires a very quick glance at the mirror, works on both sides without a turn signal and can even be seen peripherally.

I'm sure someone who has only used lanewatch would think it's great, and it's not bad. I just think BLIS is simpler and works better.

akirby

I'm sure the camera cost less than the special mirrors and sensors required for BLIS as well. The screen was already there and the software is the same as the backup camera - it's just activated by the right blinker, not the shift lever.

stickguy

Well, Camry might have better XM avaiability, but BLIS is almost non-existent on that car, so that probably isn't the reason!

akirby

Being number one is about brand loyalty, repeat buyers and price not features.

benjaminh

Sales of mainstream midsize cars in the US last month:

Camry 34,487

Accord 33,641

Fusion 24,942

Altima 24,224

Malibu 17,066

Sonata 16,124

Optima 11,719

200 11,264

Passat 7,228

Legacy 6,277

Mazda6 4,528

stickguy

I'm surprised Sonata wasn't higher than that. And surprised Passat was that high!

benjaminh

akirby said:

It will take a couple more generations for Fusion to get close to Camcord. You have to build up a strong base of repeat buyers and the plant capacity to sustain the higher volume.

Ford actually has two big factories that make the Fusion, one in Mexico and one in Michigan. Together I think they have a capacity to make up to about 450,000 Fusions a year for the US market, if demand is there.

Nissan is said to have the capacity to make up to 450,000 Altimas in TN.

But so far, it seems the only midsize car that actually sells in numbers like that is the Camry. Toyota apparently has the capacity to make up to half a million Camrys a year at its huge factory in KY.

Honda has the capacity to make c. 400,000 Accords a year in Ohio, but hasn't quite made it to that number for several years.

explorerx4

Honda and Toyota mid size are their main sellers. Ford and GM are cranking out other vehicles as their best sellers. Mid size sales are frosting on the cake.

thebean

akirby said:

My issue is it only works on one side, requires a turn signal and it requires looking down at a screen and having to process the picture, whereas Ford's BLIS system only requires a very quick glance at the mirror, works on both sides without a turn signal and can even be seen peripherally. I'm sure someone who has only used lanewatch would think it's great, and it's not bad. I just think BLIS is simpler and works better.

Fair enough.  I can understand your point.

roadburner

My next car HAS to have BLIS- I just hate adjusting my mirrors properly and using my own two eyes- it's really aggravating...

zigster38

akirby said:

It will take a couple more generations for Fusion to get close to Camcord. You have to build up a strong base of repeat buyers and the plant capacity to sustain the higher volume.

And much better engines. Fusion sells because they discount the hell of them. 

explorerx4

Toyota engines are fairly ancient. The v6 is smooth and powerful, but doesn't get modern car mileage.
$69 leases on Camry sounds like a pretty good discount.

Per KBB
"Transaction prices continue to rise, with month-over-month increases spurred primarily by luxury utility vehicles, while year-over-year numbers are driven by strength in trucks, vans, crossovers and full-size cars," said Akshay Anand, analyst for Kelley Blue Book. "At the manufacturer level, nearly all automakers beat the year-over-year industry average, with the exception of Toyota Motor Company and Volkswagen Group. The recent Volkswagen crisis undoubtedly has impacted pricing, and likely will impact sales. The automaker has a rough road ahead, not only through 2015 but into 2016 as well."

backy

stickguy said:

I'm surprised Sonata wasn't higher than that. And surprised Passat was that high!

The diesel issue didn't get raised until later in September, after the big Labor Day sales period. It will be interesting to see the effect on October sales.

I think the big reason neither Sonata nor Optima sales are close to those of the big boys is their relatively small dealer networks. But consider that combined, they outsold all but the Camcord. I'm a little surprised Accord didn't top Camry with the great deals on the outgoing 2015 models right now.

akirby

zigster38 said:

And much better engines. Fusion sells because they discount the hell of them. 

Fusion ST is coming, but fusions aren't cheap. The average Fusion sells for $4k more than the average Camry.

zigster38

A cursory glance at Truecar shows a Camry LE and Fusion SE are both discounted 5k and around 20k. At least Camry has reliability and gas mileage going for it. Fusion has...a better front end.

explorerx4

Ford sells lots of higher profit Fusion Titanium models, so the average Fusion ATP is a lot higher than the Camry.

benjaminh

The 2016 Civic has a new top-of-the-line model, the Touring. It has a turbo engine, LED lights front and rear, heated leather seats, front and rear, adaptive cruise control, Apple CarPlay, etc.. The press embargo lasts for another 10 days or so, but someone took a video of the car showing details like: the electronic gauges, electronic parking brake, larger Accord-sized trunk, etc. This Civic has grown, and is now close in size to an Accord from 20 years ago. Its total volume, as mentioned a while ago, will apparently classify it by the EPA as "midsize" car—although on the smaller end of that range. Honda has said they tried to benchmark the Touring model against the Audi A3. That's a stretch, but it still looks like a nice car to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZa1YnMw_yk

ab348

I'm sure the new Civic is a nice car, but the problem with models that potentially compete at Audi A3 levels is that every secretary and pizza delivery kid is also going to be driving around in the lower-line models and there is minimal prestige associated with the car as a result. Will make it hard to justify a high price point.