Midsize Sedans 2.0

ab348

I would agree that the speed estimate appears wildly exaggerated. The van looks like it hit something at maybe 20mph.

benjaminh

Yeah it look closer to 30 mph or less to me as well. 60 mph was just what the guy who was hit wrote....

bhmr59

Nope, just 43 years working in insurance. Look up some crash tests. You'll b e amazed at the damage that occurs at speeds at low as 10 mph.

bhmr59

Wow. I just scrolled way down and saw pictures of the van and the suv. After seeing them I would question if the van was even going 10 mph at impact.

thebean

bhmr59 said:

Nope, just 43 years working in insurance. Look up some crash tests. You'll be amazed at the damage that occurs at speeds at low as 10 mph.

OK, then you are way more of an expert than me.  I have to agree with your assessment.  Wonder why the guy would exaggerate the speed?

robr2

thebean said:

bhmr59 said:

Nope, just 43 years working in insurance. Look up some crash tests. You'll be amazed at the damage that occurs at speeds at low as 10 mph.

OK, then you are way more of an expert than me.  I have to agree with your assessment.  Wonder why the guy would exaggerate the speed?

Because it's like a fishing tale....someone always has caught a bigger one...

bhmr59

Most people are ignorant (not meant derogatorily) about vehicle speeds at accident impacts. It is common for most people to grossly overestimate the speed of vehicles coming at them.

explorerx4

Wonder why the guy would exaggerate the speed? Driver concussion?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think most drivers are trained to estimate speed and in that particular case, it would be hard for anyone inside the car to do so. If I come at your driver's window in my van at 25 mph, I'm sure it looks to you like 60 mph. Your point of reference is a very narrow window--just this looming van taking up most of your field of view. Not the same as watching, say, a car on your left, passing you or other vehicles---you have many more points of reference.

But all that aside, many people suffer injuries at speeds as low as 25-35 mph, so this guy was still fortunate to have a good safety system that worked.

benjaminh

midsize sales for July

Camry 38,435

Accord 34,496

Altima 33,842

Fusion 25,105

Sonata 23,917

Malibu 16,022

200 15,108

Optima 12,638

Passat 6,904

Mazda6 4,841

Legacy 4,500

Michaell

benjaminh said:

midsize sales for July Camry 38,435 Accord 34,496 Altima 33,842 Fusion 25,105 Sonata 23,917 Malibu 16,022 200 15,108 Optima 12,638 Mazda6 4,841 Legacy 4,500

 Any chance we could see that broken out by retail sales versus commercial sales

Michaell

 Fleet sales, I mean 

roadburner

benjaminh said:

midsize sales for July

Camry 38,435

Accord 34,496

Altima 33,842

Fusion 25,105

Sonata 23,917

Malibu 16,022

200 15,108

Optima 12,638

Passat 6,904

Mazda6 4,841

Legacy 4,500

Unequivocal proof that Vanilla is definitely the midsize sedan flavor of choice.

benjaminh

Don't have data on fleet sales. But I know Honda doesn't do that.

explorerx4

Filled up my Fusion for the first time in 5 weeks. Don't think I went anywhere other work commute and local errands. 29.2 MPG.

brian125

2016 Altima sales should be better with the upgraded and new refreshed front and back / upgraded interior . Nissan probably will tweak there Cvt Trans. From what I seen it looks a lot better than previous years.

http://futurecarrelease.com/nissan/2016-nissan-altima-redesign-release-changes.html

brian125

New 2016 models should be packed with a lot of new goodies and better choices among models. The Mazda6 has upgrades and changes as does the Kia Optima which should be on par if not better than the 15 Sonata. Legacy is unchanged and a great choice even with its underpowered motor. Look for a small turbo or 6cyl for 2017. The Passat has a redesign and upgrades for its aging model . Should be a interesting 2016 in this class.

Not to go off topic here but there are some nice rides in the Med, Suv class . Probably missed a few

Jeep GC
RDX
X-3
Macan
Santa Fe
Sorrento
Highlander

benjaminh

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150803/RETAIL01/150809998/sales-rise-5-3-on-hardy-crossover-truck-volume

from the very end of the that long article:

"The biggest spenders on incentives, TrueCar estimates, last month were GM ($3,983); Fiat Chrysler ($3,413); Nissan ($3,168); Volkswagen Group ($3,138) Ford ($2,678); Hyundai ($2,546); Kia ($2,490); Toyota ($2,034) and Honda ($1,935)."

mcdawgg

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

midsize sales for July

Camry 38,435

Accord 34,496

Altima 33,842

Fusion 25,105

Sonata 23,917

Malibu 16,022

200 15,108

Optima 12,638

Mazda6 4,841

Legacy 4,500

 Any chance we could see that broken out by retail sales versus commercial sales

Typically, Camry commercial sales is about 10% of the total.

akirby

Yes, test drive.

backy

brian125 said:

New 2016 models should be packed with a lot of new goodies and better choices among models. The Mazda6 has upgrades and changes as does the Kia Optima which should be on par if not better than the 15 Sonata. Legacy is unchanged and a great choice even with its underpowered motor. Look for a small turbo or 6cyl for 2017. The Passat has a redesign and upgrades for its aging model . Should be a interesting 2016 in this class.

There's also the redesigned Malibu, and from the sound of it GM is gunning for the Camry, sales-wise, with it. Good luck on that one, General!

Mr_Shiftright

Hey don't knock the 'Bu. I see a brighter future for the Malibu. It certainly has come a long way in shedding it's "rent me please" image.

roadburner

Chevrolet is in somewhat of the same situation as Cadillac. Even if the new Malibu is superior in virtually every way to the Camry and Accord there is a huge percentage of potential buyers who will not even consider it. Perception lags reality to a huge degree in the automotive marketplace.

benjaminh

roadburner said:

Chevrolet is in somewhat of the same situation as Cadillac. Even if the new Malibu is superior in virtually every way to the Camry and Accord there is a huge percentage of potential buyers who will not even consider it. Perception lags reality to a huge degree in the automotive marketplace.

Although the Malibu might be be better than the Camry (and I'd need to see a comparative test from a major car magazine making the case), I very much doubt it's better than the Accord.

People lump Camry and Accord together as Camcord, because they have for so long represented the top sellers in the field, but to me and some others there are significant differences between those two cars. Most magazines put the Accord toward the top and the Camry somewhere near the bottom.

ral2167

The accord has a dumb blind spot monitoring system. Go with the Camry or Malibu. 

thebean

ral2167 said:

The accord has a dumb blind spot monitoring system. Go with the Camry or Malibu. 

Obviously you've never used the Lane Watch system for more than 10 minutes. In normal driving, it's great.  It's one of the reasons I went with Accord over Camry & Mazda6.

ral2167

Lane watch system only works when your signal is on or when a button is pressed. Hey Honda. Just put indicator lights on BOTH mirrors like everyone else.  Does Acura use the lane watch system? 

benjaminh

ral2167 said:

The accord has a dumb blind spot monitoring system. Go with the Camry or Malibu. 

Accord has the best visibility in its class. It actually doesn't have a "blind spot," because it has the thinnest rear roof pillars of any midsize car. And for most Accord owners I think the Lane Watch camera is a superior technology, and helps spot bikes etc.

But obviously you don't like it. Fair enough. What car do you own?

The Acura TLX has thicker rear roof pillars, and so does have something of a blind spot. It has mirror indicators.

backy

benjaminh said:

roadburner said:

Chevrolet is in somewhat of the same situation as Cadillac. Even if the new Malibu is superior in virtually every way to the Camry and Accord there is a huge percentage of potential buyers who will not even consider it. Perception lags reality to a huge degree in the automotive marketplace.

Although the Malibu might be be better than the Camry (and I'd need to see a comparative test from a major car magazine making the case), I very much doubt it's better than the Accord.

People lump Camry and Accord together as Camcord, because they have for so long represented the top sellers in the field, but to me and some others there are significant differences between those two cars. Most magazines put the Accord toward the top and the Camry somewhere near the bottom.

If we're going to lump cars together, let's lump the Optima and Sonata together--and they even come from the same general source, with many shared parts. And together, they outsell everything but the Camry in the USA midsized sedan market.

And IMO the new Malibu already has it all over the Accord in at least one area: exterior styling.

Mr_Shiftright

I suspect there's a lot of stiff competition in Malibu's segment---also the Mazda 6, a very nice car. But the Bu has nice styling, different engine options---even a hybrid, so it's a worthy competitor.

benjaminh

I'm on a trip right now, and our rental car is a 2015 Camry SE. All midsize cars these days are good, and that's true with this car, but the hyped improvements to this year's Camry seem minimal to me. It still seems like a step down from my parents' 2013 Accord LX in terms of materials, ergonomics, visibility, performance, etc.

The "SE" Camry's styling touches seem strange to me. Red stitching on the dashboard? An angry/wide fish-mouth grill that seems inspired by Lexus sports cars? For a Camry?

The interior seems ok, but there is one squeak/rattle and more road noise than our 2013 Accord EXL.

Anyway, it's a good car, and there are bargains to be had on this model. But I'm not really impressed.

Some relatives got a 2015 Fusion as their rental car and that looks more impressive.

brian125

@benjaminh

The Camry is a mid of the pack vehicle out of the midsizers. Toyota discounts them so much it sways a lot more folks to buy/ lease it. Out of the top 10 midsize cars I place the Camry 5th maybe 6th on my list. With the new upgraded Sonata , Optima, Altima, and Malibu it may put this model even lower.

Here are my top 6 midsize vehicles .( In no particular order )

Legacy, Accord , Fusion, Mazda6, Malibu, Sonata

Altima or Camry would follow

benjaminh

an article talking about the trim levels for the newly improved and restyled 2016 Accord:

https://www.cars.com/articles/2016-honda-accord-explaining-the-trim-levels-1420680996508/

Here's the model I'm thinking about:

The Accord EX ($26,300 with a manual or $27,100 with an automatic) builds off the LX, rather than the Sport, with these features:

Honda's LaneWatch system, which mounts a small camera on the passenger-side mirror and throws the image on the Accord's 7.7-inch upper dashboard screen
A second 7-inch dashboard touch-screen with capacitive controls, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, HD/satellite radio and six speakers (versus four)
Power driver's seat
Fog lights, 17-inch alloys and heated mirrors with integrated turn signals
Rear center air vents
A moonroof and one-touch front windows (versus driver's only on LX/Sport)
Keyless access with push-button start
Remote start on automatic-transmission models
XM/HD stereo with 6 speakers

berri

How come Lane Watch doesn't also look out the left side? Seems to me that's a tougher effort in rush hour driving.

ral2167

Exactly. Honda needs to just put lights on both morris to indicate blind zone objects. This isn't calculus.

stickguy

I think the logic is that you are looking to the right already for the passenger side, so your eyes are that way already. On the driver's side, you would be looking the "wrong" way (and back and forth)

I agree, the simple lights on the mirrors is a better system. though having the mirror camera is kind of neat, I still want the lights.

benjaminh

The 2016 Accord Sport has a list price of $24,165 for the 6MT, which is just $300 more than last year's model, and for that there are some significant upgrades from 2015 including:

19" alloy wheels with 235/40 R19 96V tires
new Sport leatherette/cloth seats with side bolsters
larger 12.5" front brake pads (compared to 11.5 for EX)
new round ball metal shift knob
exclusive to Sport San Marino Red color (available even with the manual transmission)
reshaped chrome exhaust tips
restyled red instruments for Sport
metal foot pedals

Like other 2016 Accords, the Sport also gets a restyle, plus structural upgrades, LED fogs/running lights/tail lights, and other improvements. Here's a 4-minute video tour of a 2016 Sport 6MT in San Marino Red that someone did during the recent press event. In a couple of months discounts should be readily available, and so I'd say this is a good amount of car for the money. Maybe too much bling for me, but still an appealing package:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AzX4T9FWUo

shabadoo25

The Accord option packages annoy me. I'd take a sport if I could get leather, push button start and SiriusXM, but I can't. I have to go EX-L for those things.

stickguy

I consider the 19" wheels and 40 series tires a major downgrade. Darned thing isn't a corvette.

benjaminh

shabadoo25 said:

The Accord option packages annoy me. I'd take a sport if I could get leather, push button start and SiriusXM, but I can't. I have to go EX-L for those things.

Starting about 40 years ago, Honda decided to go with trim levels instead of stand-alone options. This was to simplify manufacturing, increase quality, and control costs. When the Accord was first introduced in 1976, iirc, there were just two trim levels—base and LX. Now, of course, things are a lot more complicated. Still, I think for a Ford Fusion you probably have millions of combinations when you include the options, colors, etc. Even with all the trim levels on today's Accord, there are a fraction of the Fusion's number of combos for the Accord.

In Edmunds True Cost to Own feature, I think over 5 years the Accord costs about $2000 less than a comparable Fusion, because there's less depreciation, there are fewer repairs, and lower maintenance costs.

Part of that, arguably, is because Honda has trim levels instead of stand-alone options. But yes, for some people it's frustrating because you can't get the exact combo you want. But for many people it's worth it.

suydam

Aren't those optional? 

stickguy

Not stand alone options. Need to get a different model, but you lose the sport features.

Gotta pick what you really want!

benjaminh

That Accord Sport model is really popular, especially with younger buyers. But I think there's another reason that Honda builds it, and that's this: it's aimed at the editors and writers of Car and Driver. They love the Accord Sport for the manual transmission (one of the last available on a midsize sedan), the handling, the looks, the relatively affordable price, etc.

And the 2016 Sport adds even more pizzazz, and also addresses one of the less strong spots of the Accord—the braking distance. Honda knows C & D is likely to have one of these in their long-term fleet. And by having brake pads a full inch larger than the rest of the line-up, I assume the Sport will have a shorter stopping distance. And those huge tires will probably provide good handling. The new custom Sport seats with bolsters, etc. should go down well too.

I think Honda is trying to do absolutely everything they can to stay on the C & D top 10 list with this model of the 2016 Accord.

robr2

The manual is still available on the LX and EX models as well. I believe the EX is the volume seller.

nyccarguy

Kudos to Honda for continuing to offer an Accord with a manual transmission.  19s with 40 series sidewalls?  I'm with @stickguy - no thank-you.

benjaminh

As car dealers sell the last of the 2015 midsize cars, there are some amazing deals to be had out there. For instance, at Crest Honda in Nashville they are selling a few Honda Accord sedans for as much as $4,900 off of list, which means you can get a brand new 2015 Accord LX for $18,800:

http://www.cresthonda.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=Accord&&&&

MSRP:$23,725
DEALER DISCOUNT:$4,933
TRUE PRICE:$18,792
Bodystyle:SedanTransmission:continuously variable automaticDrive Line:Front-wheel Drive
Engine:2.4L I-4 cylStock #:FA183865


Similar prices are available for entry-level Sonatas, Fusions, Altimas, etc.

20 years ago the base Accord, which was a DX, didn't even have air conditioning or a stereo iirc, and only 2 airbags, plus plastic wheel covers. Today, the "base" LX has dual zone climate control, nice alloy wheels, Bluetooth, stereo, cruise, 6 airbags, all sorts of other safety stuff, etc.

[Deleted User]

You couldn't get a new Civic EX - top of the line, for many many years, with aloys. Heck you couldn't get an accord with them until 1991....starting with the Si, then they put those beautiful aluminum platters on the 1992-4 Accord, making it one of the most desirable cars on the ,market. My girlfriend's parents had to drive to Winchester...85 miles away, to get the gold EX with the platters. Her dad loved them.I loved them. And...I kinda loved him a little more for waiting for them. It's a guy thing ya know.

[Deleted User]

Ok. I owe $8124.60 on my 2012 Optima EX base. I put a lot of non-base items on the car, with are worth exactly zero to a dealer. I think a fair price for an immaculate EX, Spicy Red, It has an SX OEM spoiler, the OEM mud flaps, way too much Kicker products. 4, 60 watt Kickers in the doors, a separate amp under the passenger seat, then another Kicker 396 watt mono amp running the 2 10" subs.

I have both sets of floor mats, and the cloth ones are barely used. I think $15,500 is a fair price. It has 42k, a new high pressure fuel pump after the recall did not perform favorably to the pump and it popped a big leak.

All service records, no accidents, and the most OCD Meguiar's wax job ever. Anyway, I want to sell it. What do you guys think it is worth.

nyccarguy

Post over on Real World Trade In Values. @qbrozen will give you an idea of what cars like yours are crossing the auction block for and what the perfect trade in value would be.

benjaminh

cski: Edmunds has an "Appraise Your Car" program:

http://www.edmunds.com/appraisal/

What are you thinking of getting as a replacement? $15.5k sounds fair to me, but what do I know?