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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I wonder if finding the dealer asking price for a comparable used model and subtracting 3 grand or so is a more realistic estimating tool for your trade ins? I think an awful lot of the website estimates are higher than real experiences.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2015
    I am just repeating what the Sheehy Ford Appraiser said to me directly. You should note that there is all Kia branded aftermarket equipment I added that does actually count. They don't have to remove some boy racer crap/intake system, it has great condition tires, new brakes, all work done at dealer, and 1 owner who already had the notoriously fail prone fuel pump replaced. Plus it still has 2.5 years and 20k of warranty left (not sure if my B2B 10/100 warranty will transfer). You may have seen lots of 2012 Kia Optima LX models for $14,990, but not an EX with a lot of Kia produced goodies. I have the rubber tray in the trunk, 2 sets of floor mats.....one type weather tech with "optima" on them and one regular set of carpeted ones I have never used. Then there is the legal tinted windows and the Spicy red color with lots of tlc with mothers gold. There is a small ding-ent which is almost invisible....but I filled the scrapes with scratch remover and re-applied mothers gold...still, they found it and that is the only reason it didn't get "Excellent" rating

    I hope folks understand that DI fuel pumps are under 16,000 PSI of pressure.This is not some fuel pump off an 86 Cavalier that should last 150k. My car does have one of those type though....it is for cruising and THAT is part of how it gets over 30mpg. It is also how I was able to finish my repair jobs, a trip to Walmart, and then to the dealer for repair of the high pressure Fuel pump. So, it technically never left me stranded.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2015
    backy said:

    cski said:



    Finally, financials. How much do I owe? $8400. How much is she worth avg trade in good condition? $14200.

    I think you might be a bit high on that estimate. I see 2012 Optima EXs with ~40k miles advertised at local Kia dealers for around $14k, retail. That's well below the KBB retail value, but that's not unusual to see used car prices tracking below KBB. KBB has the Optima EX with 42k miles in Good condition at between $12,169-12,876 Trade-In value. But I don't know where you live and don't know what options your car has. But for sure you can trade it in for a lot more than you owe!

    The lease is up on my wife's 2013 Sonata GLS in November, and I see prices tracking lower than the buy-out value, even considering the low miles on the car (just 23k now after 32 months). So I wouldn't buy the car after the lease is up, even if we weren't planning on getting an SUV to replace it.
    The Sonata GLS is like an LX Optima. You have to move to a Sonata SE to get to the equipment levels equivalent in the Optima EX..although some come with heated seats and other goodies as part of a premium package. You might be right though, as I was interested in the 2015 Mustang with the 2.3 Ecoboost Premium Package with 320 HP and 320 lb ft. All for $26,999, and there were no incentives, rebates, or any interest in dickering...so thats why the high trade in) I found out though for 2016 they are going to tweak the Ecoboost (turbo 4) motor and the V6 will be the base model, the Ecoboost 2.3 Premium will be the everyman's weekend barnstorming version, and the GT the ultimate 2 door rear drive full on sports car that the rest of us can't afford the price and insurance on. I drove the V6 Mustang....don't even think about buying one. the 3.7 was gritty and unsatisfying. I bet Ford drops it or it will be put out to rental car pasture. I drove the 2.3 Ecoboost. OMG. No need for the 5.0 or the insurance and cost to go with it. Too bad my kids have legs.

    Since I just made a $500 payment, I am down to $7,900 or so. I am SO EXCITED to pay it off!!!>
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Is the 5.0 really that much more costly to insure than the 2.3?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    edited July 2015
    High insurance? I had my agent run some numbers on a few cars, and a new GT is a whopping $39 more per year than a new Mini Cooper S- and $126 less than a 2012 135is. If I land on the Mustang I'm going with six speed GT Performance Package or not at all; I'm not buying a car that's significantly slower than my current DD. As I see it, the GT is ludicrously cheap- a screaming performance bargain.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Well all Mustangs are 6 speeds so that doesn't mean anything. I assume you meant manual?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,184

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?

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    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Michaell said:

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?
    I'd say the CVT is zero, for no gears. Also, CVT's should be outlawed. I've tried a few, and they all take away from the vehicles they are put in, drastically, except for the Honda Accords which have the only CVT I've tried that I might be able to live with.

    My wife who doesn't know anything about cars said that one reason for her choosing the VW Golf Sportwagen over the Subaru Forester was the transmission, the other reason being the interior quality. For her to notice that the drive train on one is superior (despite Subaru's very good 2.0T) says a lot; it says a ton!!! Yes, I had her test drive the Forester XT (with the better 2.0T) vs. the lethargic 2.5, and even with the very nice engine, the CVT zaps it a bit. Granted, it's not a fair comparison as CVT is the worst kind of transmission vs. the TDI's dual clutch DSG which I believe to pretty much be the best transmission money can buy. VW doesn't always use the DSG in all their models though, I don't even think the exact same car with the 1.8T uses the DSG. I guess they figure if you skimp on the engine you'll be OK with skimping on the slush box; whereas with their TDI's it's all about efficiency.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,184
    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?
    I'd say the CVT is zero, for no gears. Also, CVT's should be outlawed. I've tried a few, and they all take away from the vehicles they are put in, drastically, except for the Honda Accords which have the only CVT I've tried that I might be able to live with.

    My wife who doesn't know anything about cars said that one reason for her choosing the VW Golf Sportwagen over the Subaru Forester was the transmission, the other reason being the interior quality. For her to notice that the drive train on one is superior (despite Subaru's very good 2.0T) says a lot; it says a ton!!! Yes, I had her test drive the Forester XT (with the better 2.0T) vs. the lethargic 2.5, and even with the very nice engine, the CVT zaps it a bit. Granted, it's not a fair comparison as CVT is the worst kind of transmission vs. the TDI's dual clutch DSG which I believe to pretty much be the best transmission money can buy. VW doesn't always use the DSG in all their models though, I don't even think the exact same car with the 1.8T uses the DSG. I guess they figure if you skimp on the engine you'll be OK with skimping on the slush box; whereas with their TDI's it's all about efficiency.
    I will respectfully disagree with you about modern CVTs. Wife and I bought a 2015 Outback 3.6R in February that is equipped with a CVT. Through the miracle of modern computers, it "feels" like a regular transmission; that is, you feel the gear changes as you accelerate. What I find really nice is that when you are on cruise and encounter a hill, there is no downshifting necessary to maintain your speed; the tach increases a few hundred RPMs and all is well.

    Paddle shifters allow for manual control through 6 pre-set "gears", which is great for bad weather here in Colorado. Downshifting rather than using the brakes when going down steep hills allows you to maintain control.

    We averaged about 28MPG on a recent 1700 mile road trip, where we were doing 80-85 on the interstate.

    The car has only 6000 miles on it so far, so I can't speak to longevity or maintenance costs just yet.

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    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Actually a CVT has almost infinite gear ratios so it would be an Infinity speed rather than a zero speed. If you start considering fuel economy rather than driving feel you'll get a much different opinion of the CVTs.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    akirby said:

    Actually a CVT has almost infinite gear ratios so it would be an Infinity speed rather than a zero speed. If you start considering fuel economy rather than driving feel you'll get a much different opinion of the CVTs.

    I think the CVT is efficient when considering just fuel economy, if, and this is a BIG IF, you are light footed on the accelerator. In my real world more than a week long rental experience with a recent model Altima, I had to be so heavy footed to move out of my own way that my real world gas mileage fell way below the EPA estimates. It fell significantly more below EPA estimates than I would traditionally fall below EPA estimates in a rental with my typical driving style.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,184
    andres3 said:

    akirby said:

    Actually a CVT has almost infinite gear ratios so it would be an Infinity speed rather than a zero speed. If you start considering fuel economy rather than driving feel you'll get a much different opinion of the CVTs.

    I think the CVT is efficient when considering just fuel economy, if, and this is a BIG IF, you are light footed on the accelerator. In my real world more than a week long rental experience with a recent model Altima, I had to be so heavy footed to move out of my own way that my real world gas mileage fell way below the EPA estimates. It fell significantly more below EPA estimates than I would traditionally fall below EPA estimates in a rental with my typical driving style.
    That I might agree with .. not sure I'd like the CVT with the 2.5i 4 banger in the Outback. Fortunately, the wife has a lead foot and likes lots of power underfoot.

    Edmunds Price Checker
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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Michaell said:

    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?
    I'd say the CVT is zero, for no gears. Also, CVT's should be outlawed. I've tried a few, and they all take away from the vehicles they are put in, drastically, except for the Honda Accords which have the only CVT I've tried that I might be able to live with.

    My wife who doesn't know anything about cars said that one reason for her choosing the VW Golf Sportwagen over the Subaru Forester was the transmission, the other reason being the interior quality. For her to notice that the drive train on one is superior (despite Subaru's very good 2.0T) says a lot; it says a ton!!! Yes, I had her test drive the Forester XT (with the better 2.0T) vs. the lethargic 2.5, and even with the very nice engine, the CVT zaps it a bit. Granted, it's not a fair comparison as CVT is the worst kind of transmission vs. the TDI's dual clutch DSG which I believe to pretty much be the best transmission money can buy. VW doesn't always use the DSG in all their models though, I don't even think the exact same car with the 1.8T uses the DSG. I guess they figure if you skimp on the engine you'll be OK with skimping on the slush box; whereas with their TDI's it's all about efficiency.
    I will respectfully disagree with you about modern CVTs. Wife and I bought a 2015 Outback 3.6R in February that is equipped with a CVT. Through the miracle of modern computers, it "feels" like a regular transmission; that is, you feel the gear changes as you accelerate. What I find really nice is that when you are on cruise and encounter a hill, there is no downshifting necessary to maintain your speed; the tach increases a few hundred RPMs and all is well.

    Paddle shifters allow for manual control through 6 pre-set "gears", which is great for bad weather here in Colorado. Downshifting rather than using the brakes when going down steep hills allows you to maintain control.

    We averaged about 28MPG on a recent 1700 mile road trip, where we were doing 80-85 on the interstate.

    The car has only 6000 miles on it so far, so I can't speak to longevity or maintenance costs just yet.
    I think the Subaru CVT is superior to most other CVT's out there, other than maybe Honda's in my opinion. It is borderline for me, I would consider a Forester with it, which means I'm not outright outlawing it. Audi's and Nissans versions didn't do anything for me.

    I think your mileage is very impressive given the Outback is a fairly large vehicle and you have the big V6 engine. I believe your 3.6R helps the CVT work better than the 2.5. I think your 3.6 has similar output to Subaru's new 2.0T as in the new Forester XT. That engine might be even better than you think, but you just don't realize it with the CVT.

    However, I would find it very interesting to hear you opinion if Subaru would make you a custom vehicle exactly the same as you recently purchased, but with VW's DSG transmission unit in it instead of the CVT. I think the differences might surprise you, and you just might change your mind. I think Subaru needs to pay VW/Audi to license that DSG unit; they could still make and try to sell their CVT at a lower cost point. It would certainly make the STI more appealing to me as a daily driver.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,184
    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?
    I'd say the CVT is zero, for no gears. Also, CVT's should be outlawed. I've tried a few, and they all take away from the vehicles they are put in, drastically, except for the Honda Accords which have the only CVT I've tried that I might be able to live with.

    My wife who doesn't know anything about cars said that one reason for her choosing the VW Golf Sportwagen over the Subaru Forester was the transmission, the other reason being the interior quality. For her to notice that the drive train on one is superior (despite Subaru's very good 2.0T) says a lot; it says a ton!!! Yes, I had her test drive the Forester XT (with the better 2.0T) vs. the lethargic 2.5, and even with the very nice engine, the CVT zaps it a bit. Granted, it's not a fair comparison as CVT is the worst kind of transmission vs. the TDI's dual clutch DSG which I believe to pretty much be the best transmission money can buy. VW doesn't always use the DSG in all their models though, I don't even think the exact same car with the 1.8T uses the DSG. I guess they figure if you skimp on the engine you'll be OK with skimping on the slush box; whereas with their TDI's it's all about efficiency.
    I will respectfully disagree with you about modern CVTs. Wife and I bought a 2015 Outback 3.6R in February that is equipped with a CVT. Through the miracle of modern computers, it "feels" like a regular transmission; that is, you feel the gear changes as you accelerate. What I find really nice is that when you are on cruise and encounter a hill, there is no downshifting necessary to maintain your speed; the tach increases a few hundred RPMs and all is well.

    Paddle shifters allow for manual control through 6 pre-set "gears", which is great for bad weather here in Colorado. Downshifting rather than using the brakes when going down steep hills allows you to maintain control.

    We averaged about 28MPG on a recent 1700 mile road trip, where we were doing 80-85 on the interstate.

    The car has only 6000 miles on it so far, so I can't speak to longevity or maintenance costs just yet.
    I think the Subaru CVT is superior to most other CVT's out there, other than maybe Honda's in my opinion. It is borderline for me, I would consider a Forester with it, which means I'm not outright outlawing it. Audi's and Nissans versions didn't do anything for me.

    I think your mileage is very impressive given the Outback is a fairly large vehicle and you have the big V6 engine. I believe your 3.6R helps the CVT work better than the 2.5. I think your 3.6 has similar output to Subaru's new 2.0T as in the new Forester XT. That engine might be even better than you think, but you just don't realize it with the CVT.

    However, I would find it very interesting to hear you opinion if Subaru would make you a custom vehicle exactly the same as you recently purchased, but with VW's DSG transmission unit in it instead of the CVT. I think the differences might surprise you, and you just might change your mind. I think Subaru needs to pay VW/Audi to license that DSG unit; they could still make and try to sell their CVT at a lower cost point. It would certainly make the STI more appealing to me as a daily driver.
    The 3.6 H-6 engine in our Outback makes 253HP, so very similar to the 2.0T found in the Forester XT.

    I, too, was surprised at the mileage we achieved on our road trip last month. EPA lists the car at 20/27, so we got the highway number pretty much on the nose.

    I have test driven a VW CC with the DSG transmission; I wasn't terribly impressed with it, especially in around town driving. Felt jerky when moving away from a stop. Perhaps with more time and experience, I might feel differently. If I were ever to get a GTI, it would be equipped with a stick shift.

    Edmunds Price Checker
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    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


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    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Michaell said:

    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?
    I'd say the CVT is zero, for no gears. Also, CVT's should be outlawed. I've tried a few, and they all take away from the vehicles they are put in, drastically, except for the Honda Accords which have the only CVT I've tried that I might be able to live with.

    My wife who doesn't know anything about cars said that one reason for her choosing the VW Golf Sportwagen over the Subaru Forester was the transmission, the other reason being the interior quality. For her to notice that the drive train on one is superior (despite Subaru's very good 2.0T) says a lot; it says a ton!!! Yes, I had her test drive the Forester XT (with the better 2.0T) vs. the lethargic 2.5, and even with the very nice engine, the CVT zaps it a bit. Granted, it's not a fair comparison as CVT is the worst kind of transmission vs. the TDI's dual clutch DSG which I believe to pretty much be the best transmission money can buy. VW doesn't always use the DSG in all their models though, I don't even think the exact same car with the 1.8T uses the DSG. I guess they figure if you skimp on the engine you'll be OK with skimping on the slush box; whereas with their TDI's it's all about efficiency.
    I will respectfully disagree with you about modern CVTs. Wife and I bought a 2015 Outback 3.6R in February that is equipped with a CVT. Through the miracle of modern computers, it "feels" like a regular transmission; that is, you feel the gear changes as you accelerate. What I find really nice is that when you are on cruise and encounter a hill, there is no downshifting necessary to maintain your speed; the tach increases a few hundred RPMs and all is well.

    Paddle shifters allow for manual control through 6 pre-set "gears", which is great for bad weather here in Colorado. Downshifting rather than using the brakes when going down steep hills allows you to maintain control.

    We averaged about 28MPG on a recent 1700 mile road trip, where we were doing 80-85 on the interstate.

    The car has only 6000 miles on it so far, so I can't speak to longevity or maintenance costs just yet.
    I think the Subaru CVT is superior to most other CVT's out there, other than maybe Honda's in my opinion. It is borderline for me, I would consider a Forester with it, which means I'm not outright outlawing it. Audi's and Nissans versions didn't do anything for me.

    I think your mileage is very impressive given the Outback is a fairly large vehicle and you have the big V6 engine. I believe your 3.6R helps the CVT work better than the 2.5. I think your 3.6 has similar output to Subaru's new 2.0T as in the new Forester XT. That engine might be even better than you think, but you just don't realize it with the CVT.

    However, I would find it very interesting to hear you opinion if Subaru would make you a custom vehicle exactly the same as you recently purchased, but with VW's DSG transmission unit in it instead of the CVT. I think the differences might surprise you, and you just might change your mind. I think Subaru needs to pay VW/Audi to license that DSG unit; they could still make and try to sell their CVT at a lower cost point. It would certainly make the STI more appealing to me as a daily driver.
    The 3.6 H-6 engine in our Outback makes 253HP, so very similar to the 2.0T found in the Forester XT.

    I, too, was surprised at the mileage we achieved on our road trip last month. EPA lists the car at 20/27, so we got the highway number pretty much on the nose.

    I have test driven a VW CC with the DSG transmission; I wasn't terribly impressed with it, especially in around town driving. Felt jerky when moving away from a stop. Perhaps with more time and experience, I might feel differently. If I were ever to get a GTI, it would be equipped with a stick shift.
    How long ago did you test drive that VW CC? I know in recent years it seems the DSG thinks it's a regular smooth slushbox in D mode. S mode is another animal. I suppose it comes down to tastes, your complaint about smoothness isn't the first I've heard regarding DSG, To me, I like the direct mechanical immediate feel (that some might find jerky). I prefer that to lag and delay.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,068
    I've had a Honda Accord CVT for 2 years. It drives no differently than any other car I've owned. Plenty of power. Gets nearly 40 mpg on my trips across the Pennsylvania turnpike and a breeze going up and down those steep hills. That said, I found the Nissan CVT to be significantly different -- extremely noisy when first accelerating especially. I was a passenger in the new Corolla a friend was looking at, and that CVT seemed more similar to the Honda. I haven't driven the Subaru. So I don't think you can generalize about CVTs as a group.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,184
    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    andres3 said:

    Michaell said:

    Yes- my mistake. The only slushbox I could see owning is the ZF 8HP70 found in the Challenger R?T and SRT8.

    I don't think many people (heck, anybody) refers to an automatic by the number of speeds it has. What would the number be for a CVT?
    I'd say the CVT is zero, for no gears. Also, CVT's should be outlawed. I've tried a few, and they all take away from the vehicles they are put in, drastically, except for the Honda Accords which have the only CVT I've tried that I might be able to live with.

    My wife who doesn't know anything about cars said that one reason for her choosing the VW Golf Sportwagen over the Subaru Forester was the transmission, the other reason being the interior quality. For her to notice that the drive train on one is superior (despite Subaru's very good 2.0T) says a lot; it says a ton!!! Yes, I had her test drive the Forester XT (with the better 2.0T) vs. the lethargic 2.5, and even with the very nice engine, the CVT zaps it a bit. Granted, it's not a fair comparison as CVT is the worst kind of transmission vs. the TDI's dual clutch DSG which I believe to pretty much be the best transmission money can buy. VW doesn't always use the DSG in all their models though, I don't even think the exact same car with the 1.8T uses the DSG. I guess they figure if you skimp on the engine you'll be OK with skimping on the slush box; whereas with their TDI's it's all about efficiency.
    I will respectfully disagree with you about modern CVTs. Wife and I bought a 2015 Outback 3.6R in February that is equipped with a CVT. Through the miracle of modern computers, it "feels" like a regular transmission; that is, you feel the gear changes as you accelerate. What I find really nice is that when you are on cruise and encounter a hill, there is no downshifting necessary to maintain your speed; the tach increases a few hundred RPMs and all is well.

    Paddle shifters allow for manual control through 6 pre-set "gears", which is great for bad weather here in Colorado. Downshifting rather than using the brakes when going down steep hills allows you to maintain control.

    We averaged about 28MPG on a recent 1700 mile road trip, where we were doing 80-85 on the interstate.

    The car has only 6000 miles on it so far, so I can't speak to longevity or maintenance costs just yet.
    I think the Subaru CVT is superior to most other CVT's out there, other than maybe Honda's in my opinion. It is borderline for me, I would consider a Forester with it, which means I'm not outright outlawing it. Audi's and Nissans versions didn't do anything for me.

    I think your mileage is very impressive given the Outback is a fairly large vehicle and you have the big V6 engine. I believe your 3.6R helps the CVT work better than the 2.5. I think your 3.6 has similar output to Subaru's new 2.0T as in the new Forester XT. That engine might be even better than you think, but you just don't realize it with the CVT.

    However, I would find it very interesting to hear you opinion if Subaru would make you a custom vehicle exactly the same as you recently purchased, but with VW's DSG transmission unit in it instead of the CVT. I think the differences might surprise you, and you just might change your mind. I think Subaru needs to pay VW/Audi to license that DSG unit; they could still make and try to sell their CVT at a lower cost point. It would certainly make the STI more appealing to me as a daily driver.
    The 3.6 H-6 engine in our Outback makes 253HP, so very similar to the 2.0T found in the Forester XT.

    I, too, was surprised at the mileage we achieved on our road trip last month. EPA lists the car at 20/27, so we got the highway number pretty much on the nose.

    I have test driven a VW CC with the DSG transmission; I wasn't terribly impressed with it, especially in around town driving. Felt jerky when moving away from a stop. Perhaps with more time and experience, I might feel differently. If I were ever to get a GTI, it would be equipped with a stick shift.
    How long ago did you test drive that VW CC? I know in recent years it seems the DSG thinks it's a regular smooth slushbox in D mode. S mode is another animal. I suppose it comes down to tastes, your complaint about smoothness isn't the first I've heard regarding DSG, To me, I like the direct mechanical immediate feel (that some might find jerky). I prefer that to lag and delay.
    Can't remember exactly, but probably 2 or 3 years ago. It's entirely possible that the software that controls it has been upgraded since then.

    When I'm ready to lease my next car towards the end of next year, I plan to test drive a whole lot of different offerings. I'll see if I can include a newer model VW with the DSG among them.

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    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    DSGs can be jerky although the current ones are light years ahead of the first ones. The weirdest thing on my daughter's 2012 Focus is when you're backing up and let off the accelerator it freewheels with no engine braking. Just feels strange.

    I also found that you need to drive them hard every once in a while to keep the clutches cleaned off.

    Now the ones in the Ferrari 458 Italia and the Porsche 911 GT3 that I drove on a racetrack - absolute perfection. Then again they probably cost as much as a Focus.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    Honda Accord gets styling update, new features:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2016-honda-accord-photos-and-info-news

    2015 Accord EX vs. 2016 Accord EX

    Looks like a lot of added features at this level compared to the current model: HD radio, split folding rear seat, restyle/aluminum hood/new wheels, better smart phone integration/larger screen, XM, remote start, Homelink, LED fogs/DRLs/ tail lights, etc.

    Probably the biggest thing is the capability for Apple iPhone CarPlay and Android Auto to work on the new software with bigger screen.

    I'm getting used to the new styling and beginning to like it.

    Some very nice upgrades for me, at least in terms of how much I would would pay for these things, but I'm hoping for an increase of only $500 or so. We'll see.

    Anyway, here's how I'd value these thing, in just a very subjective "what they're worth to me" way.

    HD radio: $100
    split folding seat: $200
    new styling/wheels: $300
    larger screen/CarPlay: $300
    XM: $100
    remote start: $300 (we have a one car garage, and my wife gets it)
    Homelink: $100
    LEDs: $200

    For me, anyway, it seems to add up to a c. $1600 upgrade. Even though great discounts are available on the 2015s, for me personally I think it's worth waiting.

    But my current ride, a 2008 Accord with 75k miles, is completely paid off, and has been since I bought it. Don't have the money now to buy a new car like that, although my credit is still excellent and I could do a downpayment in addition to the trade. But my current Accord has relatively new tires and nothing really wrong with, and so I'll probably keep it for another year or two.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,280
    Looks like they want to use up all the unsold Acura beak-noses.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,068
    I think it looks nice. But I like the current one too. It's the extras that are really enticing to an already great package.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2015
    ab348 said:

    Looks like they want to use up all the unsold Acura beak-noses.

    Now thats a sentiment after my own heart. ACURA HAS TO LOSE THE BEAK on all of its vehicles. They have been doing this styling for 7 years.It is not working.

    Also. instead of a new Integra...we get the conservatively styled ILX? I can see the Civic lines in it like they didn't even try to at least make it sportier. The Integra was their highest selling car of all time. Why can't the bean-counter's get it? The need an entry model, racy looking civic based car that doesn't look exactly like a Civic. Are you guys following? Such good technology in boring, Beak nose bolted on a standard boxy body. I WANT TO SEE AN INTEGRA IF YOUR LISTENING ACURA.THE PUBLIC IS ASKING FOR IT.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    edited July 2015
    I think the Subaru CVT is superior to most other CVT's out there, other than maybe Honda's in my opinion. It is borderline for me, I would consider a Forester with it, which means I'm not outright outlawing it. Audi's and Nissans versions didn't do anything for me.

    I think your mileage is very impressive given the Outback is a fairly large vehicle and you have the big V6 engine. I believe your 3.6R helps the CVT work better than the 2.5. I think your 3.6 has similar output to Subaru's new 2.0T as in the new Forester XT. That engine might be even better than you think, but you just don't realize it with the CVT.

    However, I would find it very interesting to hear you opinion if Subaru would make you a custom vehicle exactly the same as you recently purchased, but with VW's DSG transmission unit in it instead of the CVT. I think the differences might surprise you, and you just might change your mind. I think Subaru needs to pay VW/Audi to license that DSG unit; they could still make and try to sell their CVT at a lower cost point. It would certainly make the STI more appealing to me as a daily driver.


    One vehicle with a great CVT is the Ford Fusion Hybrid. I took many test drives in the Legacy and one in the Accord. Both were 4 cylinders. Loved the Legacy. Hated the Accord. It came down to the vehicle with the best ride for me. I thought that I would never own a CVT, but now I don't notice it. Sure I miss the power of the V6 I had in my 2009 Fusion, but I'm loving the increased mileage and just a great all around vehicle.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    cski said:

    ab348 said:

    Looks like they want to use up all the unsold Acura beak-noses.

    Now thats a sentiment after my own heart. ACURA HAS TO LOSE THE BEAK on all of its vehicles. They have been doing this styling for 7 years.It is not working.

    Also. instead of a new Integra...we get the conservatively styled ILX? I can see the Civic lines in it like they didn't even try to at least make it sportier. The Integra was their highest selling car of all time. Why can't the bean-counter's get it? The need an entry model, racy looking civic based car that doesn't look exactly like a Civic. Are you guys following? Such good technology in boring, Beak nose bolted on a standard boxy body. I WANT TO SEE AN INTEGRA IF YOUR LISTENING ACURA.THE PUBLIC IS ASKING FOR IT.
    Actually, Acura is doing pretty well these days. In June they sold 17,000 vehicles, which was ahead of Cadillac. Cadillac is moving upmarket, and has its own issues, but still, who would have thought Acura would beat Caddy?

    The Acura beak has been toned down so much that it's not really an issue imho. Although, apparently Acura is going to introduce a new "design language," as they say, in the next couple of years.

    As to why we are discussing Acura in the midsize thread, the base Acura TLX (msrp 31,445) actually lists for only about $3k more than an Accord EXL (28,420). For that three grand you actually get a lot of stuff, including a longer warranty. I've been tempted by the TLX for my next car.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    https://twitter.com/TempleofVTEC

    More details on the significant upgrades for the 2016 Honda Accord. In addition to the restyle, and adding the 7" touchscreen with ability to do Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, Honda has also strengthened the structure of the Accord (which was already best-in-class), as well as improved the steering and suspension.

    The 19" wheels for the Sport still look a bit freaky to me, but for younger buyers esp. there's almost certainly a market for such extreme stuff.

    The 2016 Accord is supposed to go on sale by the end of August. In other words, they being made at Marysville, Ohio, already....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    Here's the web page for Android Auto. As you can see, most cars are going to get this in the next few years. The Accord is just one of the first. Iirc the latest Sonata can do Android Auto too:

    https://www.android.com/intl/en_us/auto/

    And here's the 2 minute video about how you can use Google maps, set reminders, etc.:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht8yzpIV9M0
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    Hey, guys, great topic - a lot of exciting stuff! Me, I've always been a fan of Toyota's brands - Camry and Corolla. Something tells me that the newest editons are gonna be even better - can't wait to get myself a 2016 Camry. Couldn't find any good info about it (besides edmonds) - anybody got some reliable sources? I'd really appreciate that. Happened upon this italkaboutcars.com blog - seems decent enough,learned a lot about the 2015-16 + hybrid versions, but still, not a lot of new details, Holla if you've got some new, reliable information.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    Welcome, nocho.

    The 2015 Camry was substantially revised and updated (see review from Edmunds below), and so it's unlikely there will be many (or even any) changes for 2016. The Camry is considered reliable, safe, and a good value, but in most comparison tests with other midsize cars the Camry ranks toward the bottom. Would you consider alternatives, or are you settled on Toyota?

    http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/camry/2015/#/leaderboard-reviews-3-anchor

    "Full Expert Review: 2015 Toyota Camry

    What's New for 2015

    The Toyota Camry receives a thorough overhaul for 2015, a mere three years after a complete redesign. Highlights include all-new exterior styling, improved handling and a revised interior with more equipment and better materials...."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    Car and Driver each year has a famous 10 Best Cars. For 2015, two midsize mid-priced sedans made the list—the Mazda6 and the Honda Accord:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-10best-cars-of-2015-feature
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    benjaminh said:

    Car and Driver each year has a famous 10 Best Cars. For 2015, two midsize mid-priced sedans made the list—the Mazda6 and the Honda Accord:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-10best-cars-of-2015-feature

    Hey, thanks for the info, benjaminh - appreciate it! I guess i'm a bit old-fashioned with my love for Toyota, huh? Actually, a lot of my friends talked about the Accord. Mazda6? Never really payed that much attention to it. Gotta start now! Thanks again, food for thought.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    Sure. The Camry is good, but you might want to do some research and do a few test drives to see if there's anything you like better. Are you buying or leasing? Do you have a rough price target? Any features you're particularly looking for? 4 cylinder or 6? Turbo?

    PS By the way, why do you have a pic of Putin as your avatar? Just wondering.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    Most of the people here tend to be fans of "their" car. Since I'm a long time Accord owner (my wife drives one too), I'm going to take the liberty of pointing out some small advantages the Accord has over the Camry. They are both good cars, and to most people these aren't big differences, but....

    In terms of list prices, the Accord and Camry are virtually the same for the base models. The LX auto Accord has an msrp of 22,905, while the Camry lists for 22,970.

    But the Accord has a more advanced engine (VTEC with direct injection) and imho a more advanced transmission. That means the Accord accelerates to 60 a little faster, and is rated by the EPA to get 3 more mpg than the Camry (31 mpg combined for Accord vs. 28 for Camry). That's only going to save you maybe a couple hundred bucks a year in gas, but...every little bit helps.

    The Accord has slightly higher crash test ratings than the Camry.

    The Accord has standard dual zone climate control, while on the Camry that costs extra. This just lets the person in the passenger seat have a different temp than the driver, in case that's wanted. We use this feature a fair amount.

    The Accord has slightly better rear visibility than the Camry. The Camry isn't bad, compared to some cars, but the Accord has slightly thinner rear roof pillars.

    The Accord has a slightly larger trunk, 15.8 cubic feet, vs. 15.4 for the Camry.

    The Accord comes standard with nice-looking alloy wheels, while I think the base Camry has plastic wheel covers.

    The Accord has slightly higher resale value than the Camry.

    Most people also think the interior controls of the Accord are a little nicer and slightly higher in quality than a Camry.

    But, perhaps balancing some of that out, the Camry tends to cost a little less in the "real world," because Toyota sometimes has bigger rebates and incentives.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    I'm buying. Got about 30K, was thinking between Camry, Accord (my friends mentioned it a lot), Altima, and even RAV4 (toyota). That climate control you mentioned - I was CRAVING for that, really need that feature. Been driving a pre-owned Camry 2013 for a while. And now, after talking to you, I'm thinking maybe it's time for a change. My muddy owns an Altima - gotta check that out, take it for a spin tomorrow. Thanks again for the useful info. By the way, you ever experienced the Altima?

    As for Putin, i just love and respect him a lot - he's an amazing guy. Don't pay attention to what they're saying on American TV. He's a true visionary, a man with a big heart and a bright mind.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    I like the Camry better than the Altima. I've had some Altimas as rental cars and they are ok, but....The CVT on the Altima sometimes has an unpleasant performance and a kind of "whine." It has only so-so rear visibility, which is a pet peeve of mine. Like the Camry, however, it often is a "bargain" with lots of rebates.

    The Altima is not a bad car at all, but to some degree you get what you pay for.

    For $30k you should be able to get a really nice car. Discounts are big right now, even on Accords. For instance, here's a loaded Accord EXL V-6 with Navigation that has a list price of $33k, but this dealer in Nashville, Crest Honda, has marked it down almost 4k to 29k:

    http://www.cresthonda.com/new/Honda/2015-Honda-Accord-92ea1d6d0a0a00646c10d3e1918ddd6a.htm

    Also, consider trying Edmund's Price Promise, which should help you negotiate a price.

    And, just my 2 cents, here's the midsize car that I'm considering when I replace my 2008 Accord: The Acura TLX. The base model has a list price of $32k, but in some markets, with a lot of negotiation, it can sometimes be had for c. $29k or so. Here's a video review of it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EqHTKpabs
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    The other car I'm considering for myself is the 2016 Accord, which has some substantial upgrades over the current model, including a snazzy restyle, integration of Apple CarPlay for iphone or AndroidAuto. This will be on the lots in about a month. Discounts won't be nearly as much for a while, however....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    Got me a lot of food for thought, my friend. I was kinda not feeling the Altima too (from a distance - never been inside or behind the wheel before), still gonna test drive it tomorrow though. The Accord seems like the best choice for me right now. Never heard about the Acura - will give it a try. Any info on the 2016 Accord price tag? I couldn't find any with a quick google search. Guess a bit more than 30K, no?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    When Honda does an upgrade they usually don't raise the list price that much. Competition in the midsize segment is brutal, and so they can't! My guess is that list prices will only go up c. $500 or so. But "real world" prices will go up by a maybe a couple of thousand for a month or so. Since dealers are selling out the last of the 2015s, discounts are huge at the moment. You can often get $3000 off the list of a 2015, but you might only be able to get $1000 off of a 2016 in the first month or so.

    The list prices for the 2015 Accords go from the LX at c. 22k to all the way up to the top of the line Touring at c. 34.

    In other words, you should still be able to get a nicely equipped midlevel 2016 EX Accord for c. 26k or so, which seems well within your budget. You could probably even make it to the EXL. If you wait even a couple of months for them to ramp up production, my guess is that some discounts will be available.

    Other cars to consider for midsize include the Kia Optima, the Ford Fusion, and the Hyundai Sonata.

    As you can tell, I'm a Honda/Acura guy, but all of the midsize cars are pretty good these days.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    Side note: This guy's life was saved by his TLX today. Kid driving a van hit him at c. 60mph, and he was able to walk away.....

    http://acurazine.com/forums/fifth-generation-tlx-2015-415/tlx-totaled-rip-934321/
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,068
    One thing to consider if you like the Camry is that many Camry drivers find the Honda suspension a little stiff for their tastes. If you prefer a more softly sprung car you might like the Camry better. You'll just have to drive them and see which you prefer.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think that the Camry, Accord and Mazda 6 are all good cars. But like Suydam indicated, they are different cars geared to different buyer preferences. C&D is more geared to sporty vehicles, so I can see how they left the Camry out. We happen to own a Honda and a Toyota. Like them both, but personally I'll take the Toyota on a long freeway trip, but prefer the Honda around town or in the mountains. My advice, test drive all three of them and rank them, throw out any you don't care for and then consider the preferences versus any sale price and resale value differences. You might also test a Fusion and a Malibu while you're at it. Whatever you do, don't let peer pressure or perceived status dominate your decision. If looks play into your decision process, make sure you check each one out in white. That color tends to divulge styling cues and issues that might affect how you'll like it's looks regardless of color you buy a few years down the road.
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    berri said:

    I think that the Camry, Accord and Mazda 6 are all good cars. But like Suydam indicated, they are different cars geared to different buyer preferences. C&D is more geared to sporty vehicles, so I can see how they left the Camry out. We happen to own a Honda and a Toyota. Like them both, but personally I'll take the Toyota on a long freeway trip, but prefer the Honda around town or in the mountains. My advice, test drive all three of them and rank them, throw out any you don't care for and then consider the preferences versus any sale price and resale value differences. You might also test a Fusion and a Malibu while you're at it. Whatever you do, don't let peer pressure or perceived status dominate your decision. If looks play into your decision process, make sure you check each one out in white. That color tends to divulge styling cues and issues that might affect how you'll like it's looks regardless of color you buy a few years down the road.

    You speak the truth, my friend - thanks for the heads up! That's pretty much my thoughts on the matter. As a current owner of a Camry 2013, I'm kinda "warm" to the brand, but, after this discussion, I'ma pay extra attention to the Accord.

    benjaminh:

    I have checked out the Kia Optima, the Ford Fusion, and the Hyundai Sonata (i mean, looked them up and made some comparisons), still, it's between Camry and Accord for me.And thank you all for being so helpful, informative and on point - made my day!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    Hi nocho,

    Glad we could be of some help. Hope you'll keep us updated on your shop, and let us know what you buy.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    Of course I'll keep you updated! I actually wanna go ahead and finally buy my car in the first-second week of August, so, I'll think on everything we've discussed here, and make my pick - Camry, or the Honda Accord (I'm beginning to favor this one more and more).
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited July 2015
    If you decide to shop for an Accord, look at the price negotiation advice on this thread:

    http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/30932/honda/accord/2015-honda-accord-prices-paid-and-buying-experience/p32

    The guru or Yoda for the Accord buying and price thread is a guy named Brian125. Maybe read a few pages and look at his advice. You might save thousands....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    Thanks a lot for the link! And for trying to get me a better deal - I really appreciate it!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    None of the current crop of midsized sedans is really a bad choice. It's really up to your personal preferences and cost. I would look at all of them online and go drive the ones that fit your price range and styling preferences.
  • nochonocho Member Posts: 13
    akirby said:

    None of the current crop of midsized sedans is really a bad choice. It's really up to your personal preferences and cost. I would look at all of them online and go drive the ones that fit your price range and styling preferences.

    True, couldn't have said it better myself. What do you mean "go drive the ones that fit your price range and styling preferences"? Test drive?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    benjaminh said:

    Side note: This guy's life was saved by his TLX today. Kid driving a van hit him at c. 60mph, and he was able to walk away.....

    http://acurazine.com/forums/fifth-generation-tlx-2015-415/tlx-totaled-rip-934321/

    There is no way this Acura was hit by a vehicle going about 60 mph. Even 25mph at time of impact is highly questionable.
  • thebeanthebean Member Posts: 1,266
    bhmr59 said:
    Side note: This guy's life was saved by his TLX today. Kid driving a van hit him at c. 60mph, and he was able to walk away..... http://acurazine.com/forums/fifth-generation-tlx-2015-415/tlx-totaled-rip-934321/
    There is no way this Acura was hit by a vehicle going about 60 mph. Even 25mph at time of impact is highly questionable.
    How can you be so certain?  Are you an employee of IIHS or NHTSA?  
    2015 Honda Accord EX, 2019 Honda HR-V EX
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