Midsize Sedans 2.0

[Deleted User]

Michaell said:

A new driver started at the pizza place where I moonlight. Drives a new Sonata Hybrid. She tells me she gets close to 600 miles on a tank - she commutes about 60 miles a day to Denver and back.

It won't last long as a pizza delivery car. Civic or Corolla are the "official" pizza cars that have any chance of making money w/o dumping most of those tips back into repairs. I wish her luck though. BTW, I did pizza delivery so I actually have a little insight... but I think it's kind of common knowledge to us car junkies.

[Deleted User]

cski said:

stickguy said:

Exl was always heated leather seats and XM radio mostly.

The ILX is actually perfectly equipped for me, in premium trim. Even has "real" blind spit monitoring. Just need to add a spare tire, but the well is there!

I had a chance to drive my neighbors new Civic Si, sealing of the ILX....which is a Civic chassis. OMG. The 6 manual was notch and a delight to use, clutch take smooth and easily modulated... and based on feel aster driving my car I would say it does 60 in 6.6 seconds. It's Infotainment system has way more options than mine, and was a bit obtuse until I got used to it. My neighbor needed me to set his hone, time, Bluetooth, etc... and in return we switched cars and he followed me in my Optima. No contest. He could not catch me in his car at all. I was also shocked at how much back seat room there was. So, if the ILX 2.4 is ANYTHING like the Si, buy it.

BTW- My Kia Optima EX has no spare either. Just a well and a compressor with fancy fix-a-flat. A mini spare is available on all models, but is standard on SX and up trims (SX Turbo and Hybrid)

stickguy

It was optional on the sonata too, but my limited came with one.

[Deleted User]

benjaminh said:

20 years ago a Ford T-Bird with the optional V-8 had the stats below. Today some of our 4-cylinder midsize sedans with the standard engines will outperform it:

"The 4.6 L V8 produced 205 horsepower (153 kW) at 4500 rpm and 265 lb·ft (359 N·m) of torque at 3200 rpm and brought with it an updated powertrain control module, the EEC-V (base V6 Thunderbirds and Super Coupes continued to use the older EEC-IV). An electronically controlled 4R70W 4-speed automatic transmission replaced the AOD automatic transmission in all instances where it was previously used in the Thunderbird. Car and Driver reviewed the 4.6 L V8 and it managed a 0 to 60 mph acceleration time of 8.1 seconds and a quarter-mile being completed in 16.3 seconds at 87 mph."

I had a 1979 Mustang 5.0. It had only 140 HP (pronounced five point slow) and it had about 200 lb ft. My father bought it for me on my 18th birthday from some small independent dealer. The second day I had it the heater core blew up and poured coolant out of the vents so I quickly pulled over and shut the car off, fearing the worst. My father built the owner of the dealer's house, so they cut the price $500 which brought it down to $1,000. Then in the morning my car was gone. He said it is getting fixed but it would take a week. A week? That was an eternity back then. Anyway, what actually happened was the dealer knew the auto shop supervisor at Lorton prison. So, two weeks go by, and finally I come home from school, and my dad just handed me the keys. I went out to the garage where I turned on the light..... and was speechless. They totally hooked me up. It had an SVO hood, painted red with two black stripes split around it. The rest of the car was dark metallic red w/ metal flake, double black stripes down the hood and all the way back the new spoiler. They rebuilt the top end of the engine, added dual exhaust, removed the A/C compressor, (too much $ and killed HP). And the piece de resistance- 4 Cragars and Pirelli P-Zero tires. I think the got the power up to 200zxxs and the torque was around 270. To top off, I was handed a bag with chrome 5.0 badges, and an SVO sticker. I put the SVO dead center on the spoiler, along with the 5.0 badges where they were supposed to go. The car had heat again too! Anyway.... to an 18year old kid I was shocked and surprised. Loved it till I was offered a deal I couldn't refuse and sold it before the knocking sound (lower engine problem) got louder. It was sold to a Mechanic and I am sure its still out there on the road....


Also Ben, Do you remember the. 88-92 Lincoln Mark VII? It had the Mustang 5.0 SEFI 225 HP V8, and a whopping (at the time) 300 lb ft. My favorite was the 89 with the digital dash, the LSC performance trim, and by default, the 4speed AOD trans. The car mags loved it.... and so did I.

[Deleted User]

So... how is everyone? I have not received a warm welcome. I apologize for so many posts in the past..... and coming off like a know-it-all. I will slow down and only post relevant topics.

roadburner

My father had a 1987 LSC. It was a very nice car- all it needed was another 200 bhp.

benjaminh

cski: Welcome back. Have enjoyed your posts. No need to apologize. Yes, I remember the Mark VII. Liked that machine! I have a weakness for luxo-sport cars like that. Guess that's why I'm tempted by the Acura TLX.

benjaminh

Motor Trend likes the ILX. Not quite midsize, but....

http://www.motortrend.com/new_cars/04/acura/ilx/

"2016 Acura ILX A-Spec First Test Review
Could This Be Acura's Most Engaging Car?

....The ILX feels more athletic. Even before you turn on the ignition, the seats are noticeably firmer. During spirited driving, the generous thigh support holds you tightly in place, and the stiff suspension and sharp brakes enhance the sensation. Steering has tightened, and corners come pleasurably and effortlessly. It isn't the fastest beast around, but it's still quite fun listening to the engine growl as the sedan slips past other cars on the highway. All 201 hp is routed seamlessly through an eight-speed dual clutch that really had us surprised. This butter-smooth transmission is always eager to move up to a higher gear even if you only lightly press on the gas, and once you hit 25 mph, you're already in fifth. When slowing down, the gearbox downshifts so effortlessly you'd never think it's a dual clutch....

Perhaps the ILX's biggest accomplishment when it comes to refinement is its sound insulation. For 2016, Acura installed thicker front-door side glass and more insulation for the body panels for a quieter ride. We tested the car's active noise control on some of the roughest and noisiest highways in Los Angeles, and although it's not perfectly soundproofed, it keeps the cabin pretty quiet, especially compared to other cars in its class. Overall, expect a smooth ride that won't succumb to road imperfections, but also expect the ILX to feel a bit like a sports car thanks to its firm suspension. We expect the refreshed ILX would be more mature for 2016. But who knew maturity could also be so much fun? ....A fresh new design, buttery dual-clutch transmission, plentiful standard features, and engaging driving dynamics make a strong case for this entry-level luxer."

They measure 0-60 in 6.8 seconds. I think C & D was a bit quicker.

stickguy

I just drove one. I believe the 0-60 number. It does have great seats (one thing I like about Acura is you can really tilt the front way up, which I like). And yes, the trans was very nice.

I think it is a nice size. not cramped, but not a whale.

berri

I find Honda leather seats in general very comfortable for long hauls compared to many of it's popular priced competitors, so your observation doesn't surprise me at all.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

522.7 miles is the furthest I've ever gone on one tank in my Legacy. I also ran out of gas about a mile from the closest gas station on that tankful

Were you hoping for a 525 mile range when that happened?

benjaminh

MotorWeek averages 29 mpg with its long-term Acura TLX:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rvda57Fsqw

ab348

I find Acura's current offerings about as enticing as a bowl of cold oatmeal. Not sure why.

explorerx4

11k miles in 3 months s a lot of driving. I'm getting 28+ in my Fusion just commuting and I have a lot more power. I do use premium octane fuel.

robr2

explorerx4 said:

11k miles in 3 months s a lot of driving. I'm getting 28+ in my Fusion just commuting and I have a lot more power. I do use premium octane fuel.

Does the Fusion require premium fuel? If not, don't bother. Using premium fuel in cars that are set up for 87 octane doesn't do anything.

explorerx4

My Fusion can run on regular or mid grade or premium. It makes more power and runs much smoother on premium, although the fuel mileage is not supposed to be any different.

nyccarguy

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

522.7 miles is the furthest I've ever gone on one tank in my Legacy. I also ran out of gas about a mile from the closest gas station on that tankful

Were you hoping for a 525 mile range when that happened?

It wasn't the smartest thing I've ever done. I left work and the DTE said 30 miles. I was on my way to get gas t Costco which is 10 miles away. I jumped on the highway about a mile away from work, drove about 5 miles and DTE went down to 15, then about 2 miles later just went blank. Now I make sure I fill up at the 1/4 tank mark.

backy

That's weird. I've found the DTE readouts on my Rio and Sonata to be pretty accurate, if maybe a bit conservative. The low gas light comes on at about 2 gallons left on both cars. On the Rio, the DTE readout goes to dashes at about a gallon or a little less; about the same on the Sonata. I know when I see that I'd better fill up pretty soon!

Michaell

On my Elantra GT, the DTE switches to "---" at 30 miles, or approximately 1 gallon.

explorerx4

The DTE on my Fusion is pretty hopeless. I've driven over 30 miles with it on zero. I usually just fill up when the fuel level indicator turns red.

akirby

On Fords you still have approximately 10% fuel when the DTE reads 0. On a Fusion that's around 1.6 gallons.

robr2

Exce

akirby said:

On Fords you still have approximately 10% fuel when the DTE reads 0. On a Fusion that's around 1.6 gallons.

Except on the Explorer which is pretty darn accurate - less than 5 miles. Ask me how I know?

akirby

That's not right, though. It shouldn't drop that fast. Something was wrong with the fuel gauge.

[Deleted User]

Thanks guys. The Si also reminded me of the 1994 Integra (with the double rounds headlights). It rides almost exactly the same. I am starting to wonder if I dated my old girlfriends based on their cars....well, a lot of them do that to us so touché.

akirby said:

On Fords you still have approximately 10% fuel when the DTE reads 0. On a Fusion that's around 1.6 gallons.

Are you sure that is standard on all Fords or just the Fusion? My Kia has almost 2 gallons left on "E" (18.5 G tank)

stickguy

doing the math on my Sonata, I think the DTE is really conservative. either that, or it stops filling 1-2 gallons short! I think the lowest I have ever taken it is about 75 miles to empty.

akirby

I've owned lots of fords and Lincolns and they've all worked that way, not just the Fusion. It's possible they've changed it on some newer models but I doubt it.

explorerx4

5 Mid size sedans comparison
http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-midsize/midsize-madness-2015-mazda6-accord-sonata-camry-legacy-comparison/ar-AAbPgzA?ocid=DELLDHP

suydam

Let me guess. They like the Mazda best.

stickguy

of course. typical that a car magazine/site weighs sporty handling higher than the midsize buying public, and discounts ride/noise.

nyccarguy

Yeah - Let them bring their Mazda 6 Grand Touring and its 19" wheels to CT in the winter & see who comes out on top

suydam

I love Mazdas and have owned a few. But I'm not going to discount wind noise and a stiff ride if another car doesn't have those issues. I think that's a big factor in deciding in this vehicle category. Rather than picking a winner I'd rather focus on strengths and weaknesses. That's what car buyers are doing because none of these are bad cars.

robr2

If one reads the article, they chose the Mazda over the Accord because of the interior and that the transmission was a true automatic rather than a CVT.

As for their choosing a sportier model, well what did you expect? They aren't Consumer Reports or Lounges on Wheels Monthly.

suydam

True. But it also says "Who cares about wind noise or ride?" So it's a great read for those who don't care about such things. it just isn't that useful for me. I think this is why I'm becoming a fan of Alex on Autos.

nyccarguy

suydam said:

I love Mazdas and have owned a few. But I'm not going to discount wind noise and a stiff ride if another car doesn't have those issues. I think that's a big factor in deciding in this vehicle category. Rather than picking a winner I'd rather focus on strengths and weaknesses. That's what car buyers are doing because none of these are bad cars.

The article doesn't exactly give my Legacy a glowing review:

"Plenty of Camry buyers would do well to shop for a Legacy instead"

"It’s not more interesting than the Toyota,"

"The interior feels cheap, with flat seats, plasticky buttons and a generally hollow, budget feel to the cabin"

"the Subie’s center dash screen information/entertainment system looks straight out of the late ’90s"

" flat-four sounds thrashiest"

"the car ends up feeling limp and soft when you push it through the corner"

suydam

We have fans of all of these cars on this forum (maybe the Camry not so much, but all the others!). I thought the word on the new Subies in other reviews was they had emerged from the 90s and are now much nicer inside.

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

suydam said:

I love Mazdas and have owned a few. But I'm not going to discount wind noise and a stiff ride if another car doesn't have those issues. I think that's a big factor in deciding in this vehicle category. Rather than picking a winner I'd rather focus on strengths and weaknesses. That's what car buyers are doing because none of these are bad cars.

The article doesn't exactly give my Legacy a glowing review:

"Plenty of Camry buyers would do well to shop for a Legacy instead"

"It’s not more interesting than the Toyota,"

"The interior feels cheap, with flat seats, plasticky buttons and a generally hollow, budget feel to the cabin"

"the Subie’s center dash screen information/entertainment system looks straight out of the late ’90s"

" flat-four sounds thrashiest"

"the car ends up feeling limp and soft when you push it through the corner"

I'll agree the infotainment is a bit dated looking, but curious to know how you feel about their last comment about it being limp and soft?

stickguy

I'm not sure what to make out of the sonata review. I think they overall sell the whole package short. I do agree about how good the infotainment stuff is. It also has one of the best balances of ride, handling, quiet, etc.

I drove all 4 of the others before my recent purchase. They could have just copied my posts, and saved time!

robr2

suydam said:

We have fans of all of these cars on this forum (maybe the Camry not so much, but all the others!). I thought the word on the new Subies in other reviews was they had emerged from the 90s and are now much nicer inside.

Only the exteriors moved into the 00's but the interiors stayed back for a while longer.

nyccarguy

suydam said:

We have fans of all of these cars on this forum (maybe the Camry not so much, but all the others!). I thought the word on the new Subies in other reviews was they had emerged from the 90s and are now much nicer inside.

The Camry might not be my particular cup of tea, but Toyota definitely has a thing going.  I saw a livery cab last week - 2010 Camry Hybrid - with over 252,000 miles in the odometer.  The driver said she only does regular maintenance - the car has not been out of service one day since she bought it.  These cars are driven hard.

nyccarguy

My major complaint with the Legacy is the somewhat sluggish acceleration.  It has no trouble keeping up with traffic.  The engine itself isn't "weak."  I've got to plan my passing maneuvers further ahead than I do when driving my Prelude.

The suspension is very well calibrated.  The ride is comfortable and well controlled without being isolated and wallowy.  The Legacy isn't a sports car or even a sports sedan.  There is definitely more body roll than in an Accord or a Mazda 6, but that doesn't mean the Legacy doesn't handle well.  Thetorque vectoring AWD system makes sure the car goes where you intend.  If you can get up to speed, it has no problem carrying that speed into a corner.

I like the interior.  Layout is simple and materials are high grade, especially given the car's sub $25K sticker price.  The only thing I don't like is the fake aluminum trim piece (silver plastic) that runs the entire length of the dashboard.

ab348

Online reviewers of cars have bias and play favorites? I'm SHOCKED!!!!

akirby

In other news...water is still wet.

explorerx4

This guy recently reviewed a bunch of mid size sedans.

http://www.examiner.com/autos-in-national/brady-holt

stickguy

well, I'm not expecting much, since he put the Camry 2, and the 200 3 places ahead of the Sonata!

suydam

I thought they were good reviews. He had his preferences but he acknowledged the strengths of other cars in the class. It was very informative. Thanks for the post!

explorerx4

@suydam,
It's not often you find a 10 car comparison even if it's not technical. I find interesting that a different car gets the best fuel mileage in each comparison review I read.

shabadoo25

I read his review of the Sonata first since I drive one, and now I don't have to bother with the rest. The following things are not accurate:

1. The SE model is not mid range, it is entry level.
2. Prices for Camrys and Accords are similar.

[Deleted User]

suydam said:

True. But it also says "Who cares about wind noise or ride?" So it's a great read for those who don't care about such things. it just isn't that useful for me. I think this is why I'm becoming a fan of Alex on Autos.

On noise: My stereo is so loud that noise is a low priority for me when buying. If the stereo is off, then the kids are all blabbing so low noise level is still just not a priority.

On style: The new 2015 Sonata has grown on me, but on the Mazda.... based on my expert exterior stylists, aged 10, 13, and 14- the Mazda looks "just like yours daddy".

Visibility: My car has a high beltline like the Sonata it is cloned from, but it doesn't bother me, except in reverse. Those replacement rear view mirror camera's have come down in price. Maybe a good X-Mas present. I now have 41,960 miles on my 2012 Optima EX.

Reliability: After 3.5 years of service it has not left me stranded once, and my high pressure fuel pump was promptly replaced when it died in one hour with zero hassle. I brought my car in for the recall on it promptly, but two weeks later it died. The car still ran and got me to the dealer, as it has a low pressure fuel pump as well They said mine must have been too far gone and too late to re-calibrate, and it was replaced under warranty. I beat the crap out of the throttle so I totally understand why the 16,000 PSI Direct Injection pump died after 40k. Also,let me repeat that there was the low pressure pump that kept it running until I could get her to the dealer.

Side note on Kia's one step down Forte: My mom (77) has a 2010 EX. Her tires were replaced for free; and they hooked her up with Hankook;s instead of Nexens. No charge. They washed, waxed, and did a great job cleaning it out. All I had to do was add a Mothers Gold Sealer Wax and some Rain-X to help out her new wiper blades-and some tire foam. Looks brand new.

Overall my car still looks like new as well. It drives like new, and even though it's not fast, has frightening brakes and understeers like crazy, there is something fun about winding out a slow car and having fun with the sport shifter on entrance/exit ramps and windy country roads...which are getting harder and harder to find here in the DMV area.

Finally, financials. How much do I owe? $8400. How much is she worth avg trade in good condition? $14200.

I'm very happy with my '12 Optima EX, Mom's happy with the '10 Forte' EX. Just FYI on Kia's sedans: They are not as refined as some competitors, but learning quickly.

andres3

cski said:

suydam said:

True. But it also says "Who cares about wind noise or ride?" So it's a great read for those who don't care about such things. it just isn't that useful for me. I think this is why I'm becoming a fan of Alex on Autos.

On noise: My stereo is so loud that noise is a low priority for me when buying. If the stereo is off, then the kids are all blabbing so low noise level is still just not a priority.

On style: The new 2015 Sonata has grown on me, but on the Mazda.... based on my expert exterior stylists, aged 10, 13, and 14- the Mazda looks "just like yours daddy".

Visibility: My car has a high beltline like the Sonata it is cloned from, but it doesn't bother me, except in reverse. Those replacement rear view mirror camera's have come down in price. Maybe a good X-Mas present. I now have 41,960 miles on my 2012 Optima EX.

Reliability: After 3.5 years of service it has not left me stranded once, and my high pressure fuel pump was promptly replaced when it died in one hour with zero hassle. I brought my car in for the recall on it promptly, but two weeks later it died. The car still ran and got me to the dealer, as it has a low pressure fuel pump as well They said mine must have been too far gone and too late to re-calibrate, and it was replaced under warranty. I beat the crap out of the throttle so I totally understand why the 16,000 PSI Direct Injection pump died after 40k. Also,let me repeat that there was the low pressure pump that kept it running until I could get her to the dealer.

Side note on Kia's one step down Forte: My mom (77) has a 2010 EX. Her tires were replaced for free; and they hooked her up with Hankook;s instead of Nexens. No charge. They washed, waxed, and did a great job cleaning it out. All I had to do was add a Mothers Gold Sealer Wax and some Rain-X to help out her new wiper blades-and some tire foam. Looks brand new.

Overall my car still looks like new as well. It drives like new, and even though it's not fast, has frightening brakes and understeers like crazy, there is something fun about winding out a slow car and having fun with the sport shifter on entrance/exit ramps and windy country roads...which are getting harder and harder to find here in the DMV area.

Finally, financials. How much do I owe? $8400. How much is she worth avg trade in good condition? $14200.

I'm very happy with my '12 Optima EX, Mom's happy with the '10 Forte' EX. Just FYI on Kia's sedans: They are not as refined as some competitors, but learning quickly.

I think you are way too kind to Kia on the failed Fuel Pump! A lot of rationalizing and excuse making for Kia on that one coming from you. Unless you cut a hole in your floor boards so that you could "beat" your throttle past its design range of motion, there is no excuse for that early failure.

That being said, if that's the only part replaced in the first 3 years and 42K miles I would still call that good reliability.

As to the noise issue, it goes up the scale of importance if you care about sound quality when you are playing your stereo loudly. The less noise the better for higher sound quality; regardless of your volume setting.

backy

cski said:

Finally, financials. How much do I owe? $8400. How much is she worth avg trade in good condition? $14200.

I think you might be a bit high on that estimate. I see 2012 Optima EXs with ~40k miles advertised at local Kia dealers for around $14k, retail. That's well below the KBB retail value, but that's not unusual to see used car prices tracking below KBB. KBB has the Optima EX with 42k miles in Good condition at between $12,169-12,876 Trade-In value. But I don't know where you live and don't know what options your car has. But for sure you can trade it in for a lot more than you owe!

The lease is up on my wife's 2013 Sonata GLS in November, and I see prices tracking lower than the buy-out value, even considering the low miles on the car (just 23k now after 32 months). So I wouldn't buy the car after the lease is up, even if we weren't planning on getting an SUV to replace it.