Midsize Sedans 2.0

berri

Had my 09 Camry in for an oil change the other day. While I was waiting, I looked at a new one. Man has it been cheapened up inside. I probably should have replaced mine while the '14's were still out. The '16 has that cheap looking black plastic all over the dash and center console/armrest. In all fairness, I think this is happening to almost all new cars. Sure takes away any desire or urgency to buy a new car right now.

stickguy

look at the Accord and Mazda and Subaru. heck, Sonata too.

Toyota IMO is the big offender. the others are nicer (some significantly)

suydam

I think Mazda and Honda's interiors are way nicer than they used to be.

berri

That may well be true. I have to admit though, that even if it's nicer quality, I still am not that fond of a standard black dash and steering wheel regardless of the interior color. Cost cutting at it's worst inside. Thank you BMW and Ford for popularizing it. I'm not buying that this look makes a car European like.

I have been in a Fusion and it seemed like the black dash material was nicer than the Camry, but I have to wonder about the rest of the car, like the mechanicals. The last time I was in a Subaru was several years ago as a rental. That one wasn't very nice inside, but I'm sure things have changed. I'm assuming that Mazda is no longer the chintzy stuff of the past either. Honda's issue is too many small controls on the dash. Man, I' getting to sound like a real b.... aren't I

stickguy

the latest Legacy IMO was a big step up interior speaking. Nice look, feel, quality.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

the latest Legacy IMO was a big step up interior speaking. Nice look, feel, quality.

Thank-you

benjaminh

berri said:

That may well be true. I have to admit though, that even if it's nicer quality, I still am not that fond of a standard black dash and steering wheel regardless of the interior color....

I feel mixed about this trend too. Black is functional, but it can also seem a bit stark. The blue 2002 Accord I used to own had a blue dash. That was the last year for that whimsical dash color. My 2008 Accord has a blond dash with "wood" accents. But the current Accord dash, like the model T, now comes in any color you like as long as it's black.

benjaminh

Interior volume of various "midsize" cars (without moonroof):

2016 Civic: 97.8 cubic feet

2015 Mazda6: 99.7

2015 Passat: 102.0

2015 Fusion: 102.8

2015 Accord: 103.2

2015 Legacy: 104.6

2015 Sonata: 106.1

The Sonata actually counts by EPA's standards as a "full-size" car, because its large interior, combined with its class-leading 16.3 cubic foot trunk, totals more than 122, easily passing the 120 total needed for this size classification.

akirby

Light colored dashes tend to reflect in the windshield. Big problem on the 2007/08 Ford Edge. And I don't find black to be cheap at all if the material is good quality. Tan looks cheap to me for some reason.

The worst is GM rental car grey.

carboy21

akirby said:

Light colored dashes tend to reflect in the windshield. Big problem on the 2007/08 Ford Edge. And I don't find black to be cheap at all if the material is good quality. Tan looks cheap to me for some reason.

The worst is GM rental car grey.

Cannot agree with you more. Tan when it gets dirty looks ugly and poopy. The black when shined periodically with the detailing liquid looks more elegant and classy.

suydam

Our '13 Accord is dash is tan as are the leather seats. The steering wheel is black which I think is a good thing.

stickguy

I knew my sonata was huge.

benjaminh

suydam said:

Our '13 Accord is dash is tan as are the leather seats. The steering wheel is black which I think is a good thing.

Do you have a V-6?

Forgot the Nissan Altima interior volume: 101.9

One thing interesting about the Sonata is that although it's a bit "bigger on the inside" it's actually the same length (at c. 191 inches) as the Accord, Altima, etc. The Sonata is about an inch wider than most other midsize cars, which is part of the difference.

suydam

Oops! I guess the top of the dash is black. Shows you how observant I am. But the rest of it is tan.

imidazol97

benjaminh said:

Interior volume of various "midsize" cars (without moonroof):
...combined with its class-leading 16.3 cubic foot trunk,

The Malibu's trunk is 16.3 cu. ft. as well.

benjaminh

I know some don't consider the 2016 Civic a midsize car, but if like the EPA you do, I think it is now the lowest-priced midsize car for sale in America, since the msrp starts at $18,640 (before dest) for the 6-speed manual. Here's the base LX tested by Car & Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-honda-civic-20l-first-drive-review

"2016 Honda Civic 2.0L Sedan
Linear power and an available six-speed stick give the base model its own appeal.

Oct 2015 By STEVE SILER Photography By STEVE SILER

....The all-new 2.0-liter engine is offered only in the entry-level LX model and in the one-rung-up EX. It is said by Honda to both weigh less and have reduced internal friction compared with last year’s 1.8-liter, while kicking out an additional 15 horsepower and 9 lb-ft of torque. The totals are now 158 horsepower at 6500 rpm and 138 lb-ft at 4200 rpm. In true Honda i-VTEC fashion, power builds in a linear crescendo, with no lumpiness or lag. Just as sweet is the 2.0-liter’s rorty Honda sound—that’s pure sound, without synthesizing or amplification—which permeates the Civic’s well-insulated cabin with every full-tilt run up to the engine’s 6700-rpm redline.

....The cabin environs seem simultaneously more modern and more intimate, thanks to the wide dashboard design, one-inch-lower front hip point, and taller two-tiered center console that cossets the front passengers. An old Honda trait has returned in the form of the remarkably low windshield cowl, which has dropped 1.6 inches and allows an expansive view of the road ahead.

....even at the LX level, the Civic is no stripper, with its standard digital speedometer, automatic climate control, comfortable cloth seats, electronic parking brake, automatic headlamps, and more."

m6user

I know it's hard to be open minded when you are infactuated with one brand but there are many cars that everyone considers to be compacts that the EPA considers midsize.  These include the Corolla, Forte, Elantra, Sentra, Dart, Cruze and others.  If you cared to check I'm pretty sure many of them have lower starting MSRPs than the Civic.  
There are also some cars that most consider midsize or even fullsize that EPA considers compact such as TLX, CC, S60, Benley, M550, BMW640.  Most look at the exterior dimensions of a car as well as interior room when considering a car class.  EPA is just looking at interior which is a combo of seating space and trunk space.  A big trunk or a high roofline can impact that number greatly so you have to dig into the numbers to really compare.  I use cars.com comparison tool to get a comprehensive picture.  I never have used EPA.

m6user

Disclaimer, I have a RDX and love it so I'm not a Honda basher by any means.  But I do find it boring when a person pushes a brand to the point where one has to wonder what the motivation is.  I also have a Mazda and a Tundra and love them too

stickguy

ah, headroom. that is my gripe with the measurements. Basically that it is "wasted" space largely. so taking a car and moving it from midsize to compact say just because they added a moonroof makes no sense to me. especially if there is still head clearance. having 2" instead of 4" does not IMO chance the roominess or size class of the car. Legroom and hiproom, now that is what counts!

benjaminh

m6user said:

I know it's hard to be open minded when you are infactuated with one brand but there are many cars that everyone considers to be compacts that the EPA considers midsize.  These include the Corolla, Forte, Elantra, Sentra, Dart, Cruze and others.  If you cared to check I'm pretty sure many of them have lower starting MSRPs than the Civic.  
There are also some cars that most consider midsize or even fullsize that EPA considers compact such as TLX, CC, S60, Benley, M550, BMW640.  Most look at the exterior dimensions of a car as well as interior room when considering a car class.  EPA is just looking at interior which is a combo of seating space and trunk space.  A big trunk or a high roofline can impact that number greatly so you have to dig into the numbers to really compare.  I use cars.com comparison tool to get a comprehensive picture.  I never have used EPA.

Hey, you're right. I stand corrected and apologize. Didn't know that some other "compact" cars are also now "midsize" by the EPA measure. And, as you say, some of them cost less than the new Civic, so I'm doubly corrected. I've had some bad experiences with some brands, like Ford, VW, and GM. But I do like other brands like Mazda, which I've also owned. And speaking of genuine midsize cars, the Mazda6 has been rated higher than the Honda Accord in every comparison test that I've read. And if every magazine says that the 6 handles better than the Accord, I believe that it's true....I've owned three Mazdas going back to the 1980s, and every one of them has been more fun to drive than the three Hondas I've owned.

carboy21

stickguy said:

ah, headroom. that is my gripe with the measurements. Basically that it is "wasted" space largely. so taking a car and moving it from midsize to compact say just because they added a moonroof makes no sense to me. especially if there is still head clearance. having 2" instead of 4" does not IMO chance the roominess or size class of the car. Legroom and hiproom, now that is what counts!

I recently bought a 2015 Hyundai Elantra Limited with the express request to have one without a moon roof. They had only one on the lot and it was built in Ulsan plant in Korea . The absence of moon roof creates 2 inches of extra space verticaly and makes the car very roomy. I never used Moon roof in my previous cars and they were a wasted option.

m6user

Didn't have any idea that was possible.  I would love to have that kind of option as well but I doubt it would be available in most makes and models.  I think some German luxury cars can be ordered almost item by item but I'm not into those.  I usually like everything else in a top package but would love to skip the stupid hole in the roof.

carboy21

m6user said:

Didn't have any idea that was possible.  I would love to have that kind of option as well but I doubt it would be available in most makes and models.  I think some German luxury cars can be ordered almost item by item but I'm not into those.  I usually like everything else in a top package but would love to skip the stupid hole in the roof.

If you like Hyundai, talk to the dealer. I also prefer top of the line Limited/Touring/Elite versions but without the stupid moon roof .
That combination is so rare in all brands or non-existent

I would rather drive a convertible if I wanted the Sun and the Moon on my head then the stupid window on the roof

akirby

Moonroofs are optional on all Ford vehicles. If you can't find one that way on the lot somewhere you can always factory order one without it even on most higher end models.

roadburner

I hate moonroofs as well; I had to fight to get my 3er built without a hole in the roof- even though it was listed as an option.

ral2167

roadburner said:

I hate moonroofs as well; I had to fight to get my 3er built without a hole in the roof- even though it was listed as an option.

Whats a 3er

stickguy

3 series BMW. In this case and older 318Ti.

I love Moon roofs. Don't really want a car without one. But, to each his own.

explorerx4

I'm with you stickguy, I really like having a moonroof.
Some guy in a parking lot pointed at my Fusion and said 'Nice car'.
Did the airbag recall today. The diver's seat seemed to be in the same position, but the passenger seat was moved back.
I assumed the air bag in the steering wheel was being replaced, but maybe not.

carboy21

services.edmunds-media.com/image-service/media-ed/ximm/?quality=85&image=/kia/k900/2015/lt/2015_kia_k900_det_lt_61215_717.jpg

stickguy said:

3 series BMW. In this case and older 318Ti.

I love Moon roofs. Don't really want a car without one. But, to each his own.

The new KIA has the whole roof as Moon roof

You would love it !

stickguy

My Sonota has the panoramic glass roof. I like it.

m6user

Moonroof or no moonroof?  One is not better than the other.......other than in the eye of the beholder.  I just wish I always had a choice no matter what option or option package I want.

suydam

I won't buy a car without one.

ab348

After having my last few cars with a moonroof, I think it would feel odd for awhile to be without one. But when I drive my '68 I don't really notice the absence of one, so maybe not.

stickguy

I notice it on the odd time I drive the VW (not that I have seen that car since August). Seems strange, but can certainly get used to anything.

roadburner

ab348 said:

After having my last few cars with a moonroof, I think it would feel odd for awhile to be without one. But when I drive my '68 I don't really notice the absence of one, so maybe not.

We've had my wife's 328i for a couple of years and I'll bet we haven't opened the sunroof 6 times.

stickguy

99% of the time the shade is open, for extra light. Makes a big difference. And I open the roof as much as possible. More so when my wife is not in car! Winter, summer, on the highway. doesn't matter. I like the air and sun.

I hate AC though. would rather have windows or roof open than AC on if I can.

zigster38

Here's a comparo chart I made for my own info with my previous car (Saab) current car (Accord) and possible future car (Civic), but you can see that cars are getting longer, more efficient, and lighter...but we knew that

carboy21

stickguy said:

99% of the time the shade is open, for extra light. Makes a big difference. And I open the roof as much as possible. More so when my wife is not in car! Winter, summer, on the highway. doesn't matter. I like the air and sun.

I hate AC though. would rather have windows or roof open than AC on if I can.

So you drive with the window open and all that wind noise racket at highway speed

stickguy

yup. turn the radio up. Hey, don't have to worry about road noise that way!

actually, just the roof open on the highway is not particularly loud.

berri

Want the sun, get a convertible

suydam

I like the light but not the wind.

berri

Well, I won't call you lightweight - just kidding. I think the answer to sunroofs is to make them optional so either side of the preference is happy. Personally, sunroofs don't do too much for me either way. It's just that some companies, particularly Toyota, are very tight in headroom on many models which means a tall guy either has to settle for driving it like a banger with the seat reclined way back, or move on to something else. Just seems dumb that a manufacturer in that position would force sunroofs on everyone. But I guess Toyota and other manufacturers aren't really hurting for business right now.

roadburner

berri said:

It's just that some companies, particularly Toyota, are very tight in headroom on many models which means a tall guy either has to settle for driving it like a banger with the seat reclined way back, or move on to something else.

I checked out a 2015 1LE with a sunroof- and headroom was pretty tight; I'm 5'9" and I don't think that I could have worn a helmet in the car. That and the overall size pretty much killed my interest in that particular car.

berri

The big Avalon is as bad, if not worse, than the Camry that way. Actually, that's why we ended up switching to a Honda the last time we bought a car. They are generally roomier for tall guys. We didn't want a lower optioned Toyota LE, but the XLE models all had sunroofs and lacked headspace. The Honda sunroof has not been a problem, but as I said, for us we don't care one way or another about sunroofs, just comfortable driving positions. Having said all that, the Toyota and Honda have both been very reliable vehicles. If the upcoming 16 Malibu is reliable over the next couple of years, might try one of those next, although I'm hearing you may get stuck with a turbo and stop/start which are deal breakers for me right now.

explorerx4

I'm over 6ft and fit in my Fusion with a moonroof, front or back. Back is pretty close, but once I sit there for a bit I don't notice.

brian125

@Explorer

I know from sitting in the 2015 Fusion its plenty big and is almost close if not equal in interior size to my R-spec Genesis sedan. Headroom Genesis = 40.4 Fusion 39.2.... Ft leg in both 44.3 Shoulder rm 58.3 Gen. Fusion 57.8
I have plenty of headroom with sunroof at almost 6'2. My 2013 Accord was not as big inside and that was a big part of me giving to my daughter a year and half ago. I remember the trips up to Boston to see her. After 4 hrs my side hip would be killing me from rubbing against seat belt buckle, chair, and console.

The 2013 Accord has 58.6 ft shoulder and 55.6 ft hip. Where it lacks is headroom at 37.6. Leg 42.5.

brian125

@benjaminh , @suydam

How do you guys like Accords Ft leather seat??

benjaminh

brian125 said:

@benjaminh , @suydam

How do you guys like Accords Ft leather seat??

Seems very comfortable to me. Although I once sat in a BMW, and not surprisingly they seem more comfortable.

suydam

They are very good seats. Appreciate them on a long drive. 

Sandman6472

I personally like a sun/moon roof and while we both have them now, only I use mine when the weather gets nicer down here, starting next week through mid April. South Florida gets pretty hot those other months so a/c is a must have but soon, I'll be able to open up my roof...yay! Had an aftermarket one done in my old '70 Datsun 210 and what a nightmare that was! Since then, never looked for a vehicle with one but seems VW/Audi include them in most of their vehicles and since we both made the switch, I was a happy camper. Not sure I'd like a drop top to be honest though I almost bought a 2001 BMW 325ic a few years back. Think if I could've got my first choice color and it drove a bit better, I'd have one now plus my '06 Honda Civic. The plan was to have both and switch off depending on the weather or where I was going but things just didn't quite work out on this plan though looking back, I should've pushed a bit harder for it!! In high school down here, we had a 1070 Caddy convertible and I would put the top down whenever I drove the thing...now that was a classy looking vehicle in the light blue with a white top. My dad and his three friends got a great deal on these vehicles from a dealer in Orlando and they drove three down to the country club for them. The folks liked the blue/white top the best and the deal was done.

The Sandman