Midsize Sedans 2.0

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Poor Mazda. Somebody needs a re-do.

I wonder how much heavier the Mazda 6 is over the 3? The 2.5 motor had just enough at 185 HP to convince my brother-in-law to buy one in a Mazda 3 when he was cross-shopping a GTI with 35 HP more than the Mazda. Now I know 35 HP isn't a ton, but when your talking cars under 200 HP, it is quite significant.

m6user

Mazda6 is about 200 lbs heavier than the Mazda3. Funny, same engine and transmission but better mpg in the 6. Add in the much larger gas tank and the 6 has a ton more range between fill ups. I'm sure the 3 is punchier. The 2.5T would be great for both the 6 and the CX-5. I would guess the 6 will get it first since they are going to bring diesel in the CX-5. Plus putting the turbo in CX-5 may hurt CX-9 sales imo. Mazda is a very small car company and can't do a lot of changes at once.

stickguy

I test drove the 6 a few times. It was plenty perky IMO. Certainly comparable or better with the rest of the 4 cyl mid size sedan class, which is the vast bulk of sales. No, they did not have a hot rod model, but as I recall, the take rate on the V6 Camry or Accord is quite low. As is the turbo Sonata.

Mazda purposely went all in on the sky activ theme, so lightweight efficiency. So definitely no room for a V6. But dropping the turbo from the 9 in there to make a sports model, sure, go for it!

m6user

We have the 6 and it is very adequate for my wife. I like driving it too but I would pop for the turbo any day if the price was right and it was my daily driver. I drive the RDX daily and like the v-6.

Michaell

stickguy said:

I test drove the 6 a few times. It was plenty perky IMO. Certainly comparable or better with the rest of the 4 cyl mid size sedan class, which is the vast bulk of sales. No, they did not have a hot rod model, but as I recall, the take rate on the V6 Camry or Accord is quite low. As is the turbo Sonata.

Mazda purposely went all in on the sky activ theme, so lightweight efficiency. So definitely no room for a V6. But dropping the turbo from the 9 in there to make a sports model, sure, go for it!

I'm a big fan of the Mazda 6 - quite handsome, pretty well equipped and available with a stick!

benjaminh

Mazda3 6,775 -32.9%

benjaminh

With sales declines for most sedans, the winners for now are the midsize SUVs:

RAV4 38,356 +18.9%

Rogue 32,533 +18.6%

CR-V 32,186 +9.6%

stickguy

Seeing a ton of new CRVs these days. They are nice. Smaller footprint than a mid size sedan, but just about as roomy. And more useful when you need to carry bulky stuff.

The automotive world is always evolving. Fine by me. I always preferred hatchbacks anyway!

roadburner

The X3 was handy when we needed to haul larger items, but so far one or the other of the three small hatches has been able to do the job.

benjaminh

In just a couple of months the all-new 2018 Toyota Camry is coming out—or should we call it the Lexus Camry? Toyota apparently was tired of cars like the Accord outperforming and beating the Camry in comparison tests, and maybe especially annoyed that the Accord has been on Car and Driver's 10-best list for decades, while I don't think the Camry has won that even once.

And so Toyota—the richest car company in the world—seemingly decided to spend as many billions as were needed to try to beat the Accord in almost every way, even though the Camry has already been winning the sales race by a small margin (when you include rental car sales) for more than a dozen years.

Although CAFE regs seemingly are about to be gutted, the new Camry was designed before that, and is going for a c. 20% improvement in mpg, while still having faster acceleration and better performance.

Right now the Camry gets 27 mpg combined, while the Accord gets 30 combined, and so we can guess that the next Camry will get c. 33 mpg combined. From having lower than average mpg for a midsize car, the next Camry is going for "best-in-class mpg."

Anyway, here's some stuff from Toyota's press release on the all-new Camry:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5868

"....The 2018 Camry has a sleeker profile than the current model. By lowering the hip points of the occupants (nearly 1.0-inch in the front and 1.2-inches at the rear), and therefore their seating positions, the design team was able to reduce the car’s overall vehicle height by approximately one inch from the current model and incorporate a lower roofline, without sacrificing interior space. This invited the designers to pursue a wind-cutting shape and improve aerodynamics. Striking character lines around and along the body augment the aggressive front and rear fenders, giving the reimagined Camry a sportiness that’s never before been perceived on this model. The lower hip point, shoulder line, roof line and hood height gives the new Camry the appearance that it has a low center of gravity, which it does....

The completely redesigned interior is a fusion of functionality, futuristic styling, and a high degree of personal space and craftsmanship. While the driver is situated in a sporty cockpit-type environment having gauges angled toward his or her direction, the front passenger is treated to a sense of openness and freedom that results from the innovative dashboard design. A key visual element of this driver-focused design concept is a sweeping yet elegant new character line that flows down from the instrument cluster and bisects the center console waterfall. The design of the entire front console strikes a smooth connection between the ease of use of all controls/systems and a handsome and modern sculptural look that is pleasing to the eye. All surfaces throughout the cabin—dashboard, instrument panel, center console, door trim, etc.—employ the highest grade of soft touch and premium materials....

The driver and front passenger will experience an unprecedented sense of outward visibility, thanks to a more compact design for the instrument panel and a lowered beltline. The reimagined position of the A-pillar and side mirror sections results in enhanced lateral visibility and creates a noticeable sense of openness when the driver sits behind the wheel....

To match the chassis’ increased handling and performance capability, Toyota engineers have developed the TNGA-inspired all-new 2.5-liter 4-cylinder Dynamic Force Engine to make the most of the platform’s enhanced designs, packaging and rigidity. This new generation engine focuses on higher torque, higher power and lower fuel consumption in total use range. This is accomplished by achieving rapid combustion due to higher tumble air flow. With its long-stroke and high compression ratio, multi-hole direct fuel injectors, variable cooling system and the latest version of Toyota’s Variable Valve-Timing-intelligent Electric (VVT-iE), this high-output powerplant takes the gasoline-powered internal combustion engine to a new level with world-leading thermal efficiency of 40 percent. Along with enhanced performance characteristics, the new engine is also expected to be extremely fuel efficient, and is anticipated to achieve best-in-class fuel economy. It comes mated to the newly developed Direct Shift-8AT transmission that provides direct-lock up from gears two through eight to eliminate power loss from the torque converter, executing shifts like a high-performance automated manual gearbox....

At the foundation of the Camry’s sporty handling and enhanced ride quality is its high-strength body/platform structure. Through the increased use of ultra-high-tensile steel and the application of a new molding technology it delivers enhanced structural rigidity.

Further aiding performance is an innovative new double wishbone rear suspension system that imbues the chassis with responsive handling and precise steering control while simultaneously delivering ride quality on par with premium luxury vehicles. A new four-point engine mounting system adds to the vehicle’s civil road manners as it greatly reduces unwanted noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) from permeating into the passenger compartment.

The biggest challenge for the Camry engineering team was to figure out how to convey the driving dynamics of a soul-stirring sedan. Driving dynamics were always at the forefront of the engineering philosophy for the new Camry. They wanted a new Camry in which the driver will be highly impressed with the handling capability and composure of the new design. So much so, that drivers will notice the dramatic improvements within the first few seconds of driving."

benjaminh

Here's Toyota's pdf of 2018 pre-launch brochure for the Camry. As with all current Toyotas, I think the front styling is overdone in an attempt to be "aggressive," but I think the side profile, rear, and stance of the new Camry all look very good:

https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/2018/camry_digital_promo.pdf

sda

I eagerly wait for pictures and description of the upcoming Accord. I understand it will have 2 turbo 4s available and no V6. That may push some sales to the Camry.

benjaminh

sda said:

I eagerly wait for pictures and description of the upcoming Accord. I understand it will have 2 turbo 4s available and no V6. That may push some sales to the Camry.

Surprisingly the next-gen Accord, which comes out just a couple of months after the new Camry, is still going to have 6-speed manuals available—which my guess is might still give the Accord an edge when it comes to the C&D 10-best list.

My guess also is that the new turbo Accord with the CVT (or the manual) will have slightly faster acceleration than the NA Camry with the 8-speed, but we will see....

nyccarguy

@sda - I read somewhere that the take rate on the V6 is 14%.

The 2 Turbo 4 approach sounds interesting (1.5L & 2.0L).  It will give the internet something to complain about.  

"The Civic Type R is too expensive!"
"Dealers are going to mark the Type R up by $10K!"
"The Si doesn't have enough power!"

ab348

The new Camry styling falls into the category of "it could have been worse" for me, when you look at what Toyota and Honda have been putting out recently. I find the existing model's styling looks pretty good so it will be interesting to ee one of these in the flesh. I do like the option of color inside.

The whole C&D Accord/20-Best list thing strikes me as a bit absurd. For several of those years the Accord should never have made that list but it strikes me that C&D now looks for a reason to include it since it has been there so long.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

The whole C&D Accord/20-Best list thing strikes me as a bit absurd. For several of those years the Accord should never have made that list but it strikes me that C&D now looks for a reason to include it since it has been there so long.

I really agree. The tenet that people are more comfortable with a car that they are already familar with applies here too. In the old days, the layout of Chevrolet and Ford interiors made people feel better about the brand they currently have because the interior was similar, if not identical, to the car they have at home. I feel this still applies for many people.

And because the MSM likes the sporty car driving aspect, the retention of the manual transmission in the Honda may be a big feather in its cap.

As for the camry and lexus becoming even more similar, toyota should just make it one car brand without the overlap.

benjaminh

Having driven most of the Accord's competition as rental cars over the last 20 years—including the Camry, Fusion, Altima, and Sonata—imho the Accord has been somewhat superior in most ways during that time. The Camry, Altima, and Sonata all have mushy suspensions, unimpressive steering, and inferior ergonomics/controls. Also, Honda's engines are more refined—you can hear that for sure, esp. compared to the base engine on the Fusion.

It's not that the Accord has always been so stellar in all of these areas areas—it's that the competition has been relatively mediocre in comparison.

For instance, when I'm taking a corner with just a bit of speed with one of those rental sedans, the tires squeal almost like a Ford LTD from the 1970s in a cop show. My 2016 Accord, in contrast, can take a corner like that fast without that kind of sloppy and even embarrassing kind of stuff happening.

Starting in 2014 the new Mazda6 has had arguably slightly better handling and steering than the Accord, but it has less interior room than the competition, and maybe slower acceleration than some.

When C&D is picking the best midsize sedan they are picking the one high-volume midsize sedan that does everything well, and the Accord fits that a little better than the others. And it also has very good reliability. My family has owned 4 Accords, and have never had to do more the scheduled maintenance on all of them, and we own them for typically 8 years and 90,000 miles. Compared to the nightmare experiences we had with other brands, that's something that keeps us coming back.

All that having been said, however, I think the new Camry seems like it is superior to the current Accord in several ways. If a new Accord wasn't coming out too a few months later, I'd say that the 2018 Camry would be almost a slam dunk to get on the 10 best list for C&D.

stickguy

The 6 is actually one of the quicker sedans in the class. Certainly on the upper end. For the majority of sales (base 4).

And Toyota may regret lowering the hip point. Buyers, especially the aging demographic that buys camrys quite often, want higher "slide in" hip points, and not cars they have to fall into and climb out of. One reason imo small CUVs are so popular.

At least I picked a good time (this November) to be back in market. Competition will be fierce, and major deals to be had on any leftover 2017s!

Michaell

stickguy said:

And Toyota may regret lowering the hip point. Buyers, especially the aging demographic that buys camrys quite often, want higher "slide in" hip points, and not cars they have to fall into and climb out of. One reason imo small CUVs are so popular.

Concur.

My mom owns a 2003 Hyundai Sonata. Competent car, but I wonder how she would do with something like an HR-V for ease of entry / exit.

Not that she's in the market or anything. I think the Sonata still has less that 40,000 miles on it.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Here's Toyota's pdf of 2018 pre-launch brochure for the Camry. As with all current Toyotas, I think the front styling is overdone in an attempt to be "aggressive," but I think the side profile, rear, and stance of the new Camry all look very good:

https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/2018/camry_digital_promo.pdf

I hope the new Camry isn't more exciting than its predecessor; the current car is already so "bold" that it gives me heart palpitations...

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure all potential Camry buyers are just squealing with delight at the prospect of kickin' out the jams....

explorerx4

Seems like a bad strategy to design a car with lower seating, when the market is selling those that seat higher.
I'll give them credit for finally putting some effort into the functional design.

pensfan83

Test driving a Fusion Sport on Friday...first step in determining whether I bail on a sedan and join the SUV crowd

fushigi

We've become a sedan / SUV household. Wife likes smaller cars (currently driving a '12 Elantra) but I really like the CUV/SUV category. Easier entry/exit and higher driving seating position are, for me, much nicer than lowering myself to get in and having to basically climb out of a sedan. I've a bum knee so it takes substantially more effort - and some pain - to deal with a car v. something that rides at CUV height. I don't care much that fuel economy is worse as I average only 8K or so miles a year.

Even with a CVT my QX60 is plenty fast; C&D clocked it at 7.1 seconds to 60. For '17, Infiniti/Nissan bumped the 3.5 to 295HP/270ft-lb so there's power to spare. It's only turning around 2100 RPMs at 80MPH and 2400 at 90. With the 3rd row in use.

stickguy

My RDX is like that. Easy to get in and out of, being up higher, and is pretty much a little hot rod with the big motor.

Michaell

Same here; the Outback, for all intents and purposes, is an SUV, even though the wife thinks of it as a wagon. Then we (well, I) have my Jetta for around town stuff.

The Outback turns right around 2K at 80 MPH.

ab348

I must be an old fossil who is too used to dropping down to get into vehicles. I find my brother's Ranger pickup difficult to climb into, and my buddy's Canyon is even worse. Both seem too high to me.

m6user

Think the ride/seat height in a 4wd truck is higher than most CUVs. Notice I said CUV vs. SUV as the former are built on car frames which usually sit lower and handle better. We too are a midsize sedan/CUV family. I don't have any physical problems but do like the ride height and ability to throw the lawn mower in the back if need be. Just bought a power washer that would have been a real chore pulling out a trunk(if it would have fit). It's nice to have both available.

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm sure all potential Camry buyers are just squealing with delight at the prospect of kickin' out the jams....

Yeah. It seems like Toyota is potentially misjudging the market.

On the other hand, when Hyundai went bland like the Camry for this generation of Sonata, sales went into a slow downward spiral.

And, when Honda shifted the Civic from bland and practical to almost a performance sedan with edgy style (while still being practical), sales soared.

Honda has had success making the Accord the slightly more sporty of all the high-volume midsize sedans, but in part it's been successful because Toyota completely gave them that territory.

Can the top two midsize sedans both be on the slightly sporty side? We'll see. My guess is that it'll work out ok for Toyota. Most people who buy a new car, even a midsize sedan, would like it to be a bit special, and not just bland. But Toyota seems to be taking this idea to an extreme for this segment. Car buyers who would like to buy a midsize car with more than a bit of Lexus in it for about half the price are likely going to be happy imho. As a loyal Accord owner, this is the first Camry I've ever even considered cross-shopping.

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm sure all potential Camry buyers are just squealing with delight at the prospect of kickin' out the jams....

Toyota may well be misjudging the market. On the other hand, when Hyundai went bland like the Camry sales went into a downward spiral. And when Honda spiced up the Civic's style and performance, sales soared. We'll see what happens. But my guess is that there might be a lot of people who want to buy a car with a large dash of Lexus in it for half the price.

fushigi

m6user said:

Think the ride/seat height in a 4wd truck is higher than most CUVs. Notice I said CUV vs. SUV as the former are built on car frames which usually sit lower and handle better. We too are a midsize sedan/CUV family. I don't have any physical problems but do like the ride height and ability to throw the lawn mower in the back if need be. Just bought a power washer that would have been a real chore pulling out a trunk(if it would have fit). It's nice to have both available.

Yeah, the cargo handling is nice (though admittedly a minivan would be better). I drove from our suburban office to our downtown Chicago office today. Carpooled; had 2 coworkers with so the back seat was part-occupied. One of them wanted to bring back a replacement office chair to the suburban office.

So when we left I grabbed it, tilted it sideways, and placed it in the back. Didn't have to recline the 2nd row. Didn't have to separate the base from the seat. Basically just tossed it in. Still had tons of space around it. Used the tie-down loops to secure it from shifting and off we went. Even if volume-wise it would fit in my wife's trunk, the opening is too small for that to work without disassembly.

stickguy

I was stopped next to a Ram PU a few days ago, and pointed it out to the wife as something we were going to test drive. She mentioned it looked way too high for her to comfortably get into, I did realize that it was lifted a bit. So showed her a normal ride height one later, that only needed a little bit of running board action to manage!

benjaminh

The new 2018 Camry is getting good reviews. And the combined mpg of the popular LE model is now 32, which I think is best-in-class.

backy

That beats the Sonata Eco by 1 mpg. But here's the thing... if I were in the market for a car that can hold 4 full-sized adults, 5 in a pinch, have plenty of cargo room, and gets good fuel economy, I wouldn't look at a sedan like the Camry or Sonata or Accord at all. I'd go for something like the Ioniq, which not only has the utility of a hatch but gets up to 58 mpg overall per the EPA. Or maybe the Niro, if I wanted a higher seating position than a sedan (which is important for my wife).

I can see why mid-sized sedan sales are plummeting. Today's "compact" cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, and Ioniq offer the interior room of a mid-sized car from just a few years ago with a smaller, handier size and lower price. Then there's the small SUVs that offer decent FE but much more utility than a sedan, and are easier for baby boomers to get in and out of.

andres3

backy said:

That beats the Sonata Eco by 1 mpg. But here's the thing... if I were in the market for a car that can hold 4 full-sized adults, 5 in a pinch, have plenty of cargo room, and gets good fuel economy, I wouldn't look at a sedan like the Camry or Sonata or Accord at all. I'd go for something like the Ioniq, which not only has the utility of a hatch but gets up to 58 mpg overall per the EPA. Or maybe the Niro, if I wanted a higher seating position than a sedan (which is important for my wife).

I can see why mid-sized sedan sales are plummeting. Today's "compact" cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, and Ioniq offer the interior room of a mid-sized car from just a few years ago with a smaller, handier size and lower price. Then there's the small SUVs that offer decent FE but much more utility than a sedan, and are easier for baby boomers to get in and out of.

My parents will be looking for a new ride soon. They want something comfortable, quiet, safe, good FE, and "nicer" than a Prius. My mother is pushing my Dad's budget upward from Prius territory, maybe even entering @graphicguy early 2017 territory of demanding to spend less than $40K out the door (about $36,500 of car) maximum. Of course, that self-imposed budget didn't last that long for GG. The right car will make someone stretch if need be. I think I could find them a fantastic automobile for 40K before fees, but 40K out the door is a bit tougher as GG recently found out. Sure, there are very good cars for less, but if your looking for both "new" and "luxury" that makes it a tall order. Now CPO opens up a can of possibilities.

Mid-Size sedans are great right now because of the incentives and deals going on, they don't cost that much more than the more compact (now mid-size) offerings. If you don't need the extra leg room and cargo space, then sure, a Civic will do instead of an Accord, but there is something to be said for the ride of a longer wheel base car.

Michaell

andres3 said:

backy said:

That beats the Sonata Eco by 1 mpg. But here's the thing... if I were in the market for a car that can hold 4 full-sized adults, 5 in a pinch, have plenty of cargo room, and gets good fuel economy, I wouldn't look at a sedan like the Camry or Sonata or Accord at all. I'd go for something like the Ioniq, which not only has the utility of a hatch but gets up to 58 mpg overall per the EPA. Or maybe the Niro, if I wanted a higher seating position than a sedan (which is important for my wife).

I can see why mid-sized sedan sales are plummeting. Today's "compact" cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, and Ioniq offer the interior room of a mid-sized car from just a few years ago with a smaller, handier size and lower price. Then there's the small SUVs that offer decent FE but much more utility than a sedan, and are easier for baby boomers to get in and out of.

My parents will be looking for a new ride soon. They want something comfortable, quiet, safe, good FE, and "nicer" than a Prius. My mother is pushing my Dad's budget upward from Prius territory, maybe even entering @graphicguy early 2017 territory of demanding to spend less than $40K out the door (about $36,500 of car) maximum. Of course, that self-imposed budget didn't last that long for GG. The right car will make someone stretch if need be. I think I could find them a fantastic automobile for 40K before fees, but 40K out the door is a bit tougher as GG recently found out. Sure, there are very good cars for less, but if your looking for both "new" and "luxury" that makes it a tall order. Now CPO opens up a can of possibilities.

Mid-Size sedans are great right now because of the incentives and deals going on, they don't cost that much more than the more compact (now mid-size) offerings. If you don't need the extra leg room and cargo space, then sure, a Civic will do instead of an Accord, but there is something to be said for the ride of a longer wheel base car.

Some pretty amazing deals on the 2017 Camry, as dealers try to blow out inventory in prep for the new 2018.

Same is true with the Accord - you could get a Touring level trim for around $30K before TTL.

suydam

andres3 said:

backy said:

That beats the Sonata Eco by 1 mpg. But here's the thing... if I were in the market for a car that can hold 4 full-sized adults, 5 in a pinch, have plenty of cargo room, and gets good fuel economy, I wouldn't look at a sedan like the Camry or Sonata or Accord at all. I'd go for something like the Ioniq, which not only has the utility of a hatch but gets up to 58 mpg overall per the EPA. Or maybe the Niro, if I wanted a higher seating position than a sedan (which is important for my wife).

I can see why mid-sized sedan sales are plummeting. Today's "compact" cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, and Ioniq offer the interior room of a mid-sized car from just a few years ago with a smaller, handier size and lower price. Then there's the small SUVs that offer decent FE but much more utility than a sedan, and are easier for baby boomers to get in and out of.

My parents will be looking for a new ride soon. They want something comfortable, quiet, safe, good FE, and "nicer" than a Prius. My mother is pushing my Dad's budget upward from Prius territory, maybe even entering @graphicguy early 2017 territory of demanding to spend less than $40K out the door (about $36,500 of car) maximum. Of course, that self-imposed budget didn't last that long for GG. The right car will make someone stretch if need be. I think I could find them a fantastic automobile for 40K before fees, but 40K out the door is a bit tougher as GG recently found out. Sure, there are very good cars for less, but if your looking for both "new" and "luxury" that makes it a tall order. Now CPO opens up a can of possibilities.

Mid-Size sedans are great right now because of the incentives and deals going on, they don't cost that much more than the more compact (now mid-size) offerings. If you don't need the extra leg room and cargo space, then sure, a Civic will do instead of an Accord, but there is something to be said for the ride of a longer wheel base car.

They might consider a Volt. Compact yet roomy. WAAY nicer than a Prius, yet terrific FE.

nyccarguy

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

andres3

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

backy said:

That beats the Sonata Eco by 1 mpg. But here's the thing... if I were in the market for a car that can hold 4 full-sized adults, 5 in a pinch, have plenty of cargo room, and gets good fuel economy, I wouldn't look at a sedan like the Camry or Sonata or Accord at all. I'd go for something like the Ioniq, which not only has the utility of a hatch but gets up to 58 mpg overall per the EPA. Or maybe the Niro, if I wanted a higher seating position than a sedan (which is important for my wife).

I can see why mid-sized sedan sales are plummeting. Today's "compact" cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, and Ioniq offer the interior room of a mid-sized car from just a few years ago with a smaller, handier size and lower price. Then there's the small SUVs that offer decent FE but much more utility than a sedan, and are easier for baby boomers to get in and out of.

My parents will be looking for a new ride soon. They want something comfortable, quiet, safe, good FE, and "nicer" than a Prius. My mother is pushing my Dad's budget upward from Prius territory, maybe even entering @graphicguy early 2017 territory of demanding to spend less than $40K out the door (about $36,500 of car) maximum. Of course, that self-imposed budget didn't last that long for GG. The right car will make someone stretch if need be. I think I could find them a fantastic automobile for 40K before fees, but 40K out the door is a bit tougher as GG recently found out. Sure, there are very good cars for less, but if your looking for both "new" and "luxury" that makes it a tall order. Now CPO opens up a can of possibilities.

Mid-Size sedans are great right now because of the incentives and deals going on, they don't cost that much more than the more compact (now mid-size) offerings. If you don't need the extra leg room and cargo space, then sure, a Civic will do instead of an Accord, but there is something to be said for the ride of a longer wheel base car.

Some pretty amazing deals on the 2017 Camry, as dealers try to blow out inventory in prep for the new 2018.

Same is true with the Accord - you could get a Touring level trim for around $30K before TTL.

My parents are visiting me for a bit over a week starting on Friday! Grandma/Grandpa - granddaughter bonding time, and Car Shopping are both on the itinerary which I'm excited about! They said it would have to indeed be the "perfect" car for them to buy it in San Diego though.

They are driving down from Sacramento, and not trading anything in, so that would mean 2 people driving 2 cars back up for a very long haul. I mentioned how if they are going higher end, it may be worth it if they like the option and color package a lot, because Sacramento may not have it (it's not like an Accord or Camry appliance where every dealer has almost every combo).

They said they had looked at the Camry, and they thought it was "nice," but that my mother would probably like something nicer than the Camry (like Lexus, Acura, and of course, I'll talk them into looking at Audi). Although not my cup of tea, a 37 MPG de-tuned new A4 with FWD might be good for them. Of course I'd go for the quattro A4 with the quick 2.0T (didn't Edmunds get 5.3 0-60 and 99' braking on one?)

Although I think they'd like the Avalon/ES350, they might just be too big. As for the Volt, I'll tell them to look if they are interested, but I have a feeling Chevy will be nixed by reputation/perception alone. For most people, I think it is faster to earn a first impression than it is to change it. Same with trust, faster to lose it then earn it.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

Michaell

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

I think the A4 "Ultra" might be a good fit for the folks - FWD, peppy but not overly powerful engine, all the bells and whistles they could imagine.

fushigi

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

My local Infiniti dealer (Chicago suburbs) has web pricing posted that reflects about 14% off MSRP without haggling. 2017 Q50 3.0t Premiums with MSRP over $49K have web pricing around $42K.

andres3

fushigi said:

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

My local Infiniti dealer (Chicago suburbs) has web pricing posted that reflects about 14% off MSRP without haggling. 2017 Q50 3.0t Premiums with MSRP over $49K have web pricing around $42K.

Yeah, that's still going to be too much. Would have to be a leftover '16 or lightly used CPO. I have to say, I think Audi is going to sell a lot of these detuned 190 HP 37 MPG Highway 2.0T FWD A4's. Better to de-tune a fine 2.0T engine than put in a cheaper 1.8T VW unit! Of course, I saw a Mexican plate Audi with the 1.8, but in the US, that engine is not allowed in Audi's anymore My Audi snobbery is on display

And for the people that want a fast A4, the 252 HP 272 lb/ft of torque tuning on the 2.0T will satisfy many, and if that doesn't do the trick, then the 350+HP S4 is for you.

Michaell

andres3 said:

fushigi said:

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

My local Infiniti dealer (Chicago suburbs) has web pricing posted that reflects about 14% off MSRP without haggling. 2017 Q50 3.0t Premiums with MSRP over $49K have web pricing around $42K.

Yeah, that's still going to be too much. Would have to be a leftover '16 or lightly used CPO. I have to say, I think Audi is going to sell a lot of these detuned 190 HP 37 MPG Highway 2.0T FWD A4's. Better to de-tune a fine 2.0T engine than put in a cheaper 1.8T VW unit! Of course, I saw a Mexican plate Audi with the 1.8, but in the US, that engine is not allowed in Audi's anymore My Audi snobbery is on display

And for the people that want a fast A4, the 252 HP 272 lb/ft of torque tuning on the 2.0T will satisfy many, and if that doesn't do the trick, then the 350+HP S4 is for you.

You do know that VW is introducing a new 2.0T engine for the Golf and Passat - 180HP and 2xx lb/ft of torque. Will replace the 1.8T going forward

andres3

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

fushigi said:

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

My local Infiniti dealer (Chicago suburbs) has web pricing posted that reflects about 14% off MSRP without haggling. 2017 Q50 3.0t Premiums with MSRP over $49K have web pricing around $42K.

Yeah, that's still going to be too much. Would have to be a leftover '16 or lightly used CPO. I have to say, I think Audi is going to sell a lot of these detuned 190 HP 37 MPG Highway 2.0T FWD A4's. Better to de-tune a fine 2.0T engine than put in a cheaper 1.8T VW unit! Of course, I saw a Mexican plate Audi with the 1.8, but in the US, that engine is not allowed in Audi's anymore My Audi snobbery is on display

And for the people that want a fast A4, the 252 HP 272 lb/ft of torque tuning on the 2.0T will satisfy many, and if that doesn't do the trick, then the 350+HP S4 is for you.

You do know that VW is introducing a new 2.0T engine for the Golf and Passat - 180HP and 2xx lb/ft of torque. Will replace the 1.8T going forward

A good decision. I'm no engine engineer or expert, but I have a good seat of the pants dyno, and the 1.8T isn't a star, and furthermore, it doesn't have the MPG's to justify its also-ran status. It isn't a "bad" engine, but it isn't a modern day marvel either. Never was this clearer than when the new A3 sedan came out where the base model 1.8 FWD A3 couldn't get better miles per gallon than the 220 HP 2.0T w/quattro A3 upgrade. The 2.0 is simply a superior power plant, but it does cost more.

stickguy

I have a lot of time in a 1,8t Jetta. I find it to move along quite nicely. And gets great mpg (have done highway runs in the 39 range). The Passat loaner I had with the same engine also did not feel under powered.

Though the 2.0T upgrade is certainly a nice thing to have, if the MPG doesn't take a hit. Will have to check that out in the fall when I am looking (I guess in a Passat, don't think the wife will want to go for a Golf, and not sure what the upcoming Jetta will have for a motor, or when it shows up).

stickguy

by coincidence, while reading this thread, got an email pop up from local Hyundai dealer, touting 20% off on Sonatas. Good time to be shopping mid size sedans (well, FS to me), especially if just interested in cheap. With the camry and Accord about to be redesigned, and Sonata getting a major refresh, the 2017 deals this summer are likely to be insane.

andres3

stickguy said:

I have a lot of time in a 1,8t Jetta. I find it to move along quite nicely. And gets great mpg (have done highway runs in the 39 range). The Passat loaner I had with the same engine also did not feel under powered.

Though the 2.0T upgrade is certainly a nice thing to have, if the MPG doesn't take a hit. Will have to check that out in the fall when I am looking (I guess in a Passat, don't think the wife will want to go for a Golf, and not sure what the upcoming Jetta will have for a motor, or when it shows up).

That is great mileage. As I said, not a "bad" engine, and heck, good enough we plunked down $30K for an AWD Golf Alltrack that has the 1.8 (helped by DSG).

What are the Jetta's 1.8T EPA figures for gas mileage? The '17 A4 Ultra 2.0T is posting 27 City/37 Highway, and this is the B9 A4 which is a larger luxury car. Am I the only one impressed by these figures? While the 1.8T is adequate, this impressive mileage in the 2.0T is done at 190 HP and 236 Ft-Lbs of torque.

fushigi

andres3 said:

fushigi said:

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - have em take a test drive in an Infiniti Q50 3.0t Premium.  They won't be dissapointed.

I think it's worth a test drive! What kind of OTD cost do you think would be a good deal on a new '17? (doubt any leftover '16 remain). They probably do want and could use the safety nanny bells & whistles, so figure a loaded trim-line but they have no need for "sport" options.

My local Infiniti dealer (Chicago suburbs) has web pricing posted that reflects about 14% off MSRP without haggling. 2017 Q50 3.0t Premiums with MSRP over $49K have web pricing around $42K.

Yeah, that's still going to be too much. Would have to be a leftover '16 or lightly used CPO. I have to say, I think Audi is going to sell a lot of these detuned 190 HP 37 MPG Highway 2.0T FWD A4's. Better to de-tune a fine 2.0T engine than put in a cheaper 1.8T VW unit! Of course, I saw a Mexican plate Audi with the 1.8, but in the US, that engine is not allowed in Audi's anymore My Audi snobbery is on display

And for the people that want a fast A4, the 252 HP 272 lb/ft of torque tuning on the 2.0T will satisfy many, and if that doesn't do the trick, then the 350+HP S4 is for you.

Well, if a 2.0t is fine, the Q50's 208HP/258lb-ft 2.0t is around $36-38K. That's with AWD; FWD should be less, of course, but my dealer doesn't have any stocked.

stickguy

Rear wheel drive. Probably easier to find in California.