Midsize Sedans 2.0

explorerx4

I guess winter gas is gone.
Finally the Fusion had a pretty good tank of gas.
Been averaging 27. last tank was 29.4.
I like to get over 400 miles per tank and got 441, so I'm happy with that.

Sandman6472

Think on any vehicle, most would like to see the 400 or above mark when filled up. Something about that number seems to make me at least feel very happy. And with my Golf, have gotten up to 430 on a couple occasions! Silly I know, but the mind is an interesting thing! I now when the kids were small, the wife would never ever consider a minivan, even though we had 3 kids withing 40 months. She kept saying she would only drive a 4 door sedan so she had an Olds Cutlass Supreme and then a couple of Toyota Camry's. ANd she's been downsizing ever since the last kid left the nest!

The Sandman

backy

It should be possible to get 400+ miles per tank on most new mid-sized sedans today, unless they're driven only in the city. Most of them have at least 16 gallon tanks or thereabouts, so you only need upper 20s MPG--easily achievable in mixed driving. My wife never seemed to get over low 20s MPG when she had a mid-sized sedan (last one was a 2013 Sonata), and now she does well to break 20 on her CX-7 but she drives almost all short trips in town, with a lead foot. I'm averaging mid-to-upper 30s MPG now with my Forte5, even though the EPA highway rating is only 33, so I can get over 400 miles to a tank (13.2 gallons) but I usually don't push it that far before I fill up. I did last week though, and put in about 12.5 gallons.

stickguy

last time I filled my Sonata, after doing a highway run, the range estimate reset to about 550 miles. And about 2 years ago I got a rental passat (the old 2.5L engine) and when I got it, DTE was in the upper 5s, and as I got on the highway, it actually went up to 600 miles.

pretty impressive. I think both cars are toting 18.5 or so gallon tanks.

nyccarguy

I would get 400 mile tankfuls easily when i had the Legacy.  

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

I would get 400 mile tankfuls easily when i had the Legacy.  

I've had a couple of 400 mile tanks with the Jetta.

suydam

In the Accord 4 cyl CVT any road trip gets you 500+ miles for sure. Over 400 in mixed driving. I imagine most 4 cyl sedans will do that well. The Volt has a total range of about 400 miles too, in line with most compact vehicles.

sda

I typically get 37+mpg and have exceeded 40mpg multiple times while using the a/c and driving 65-75 mph. Though the range to empty exceeds 500 miles, I stop and refresh and refuel before that, generally at 1/2-3/8 full.

sda

BTW, in the 44 months I've had the Accord, other than regular maintenance such as oil changes and filters, it has only needed a new battery, tires and its first alignment at 60k. My commute is considerably shorter than it was in the past so the miles driven have been cut by more than half to about 1k/mo. It is at 66.7k and is the best car overall that I've owned.

suydam

It's a pretty great car. We had the '13 EX-L. Only reason we sold it was because it got to be a little too big for us, and we are no longer making those giant road trips we used to do.

nyccarguy

sda said:

I typically get 37+mpg and have exceeded 40mpg multiple times while using the a/c and driving 65-75 mph. Though the range to empty exceeds 500 miles, I stop and refresh and refuel before that, generally at 1/2-3/8 full.

I'm averaging about 20.5 mpg in my Infiniti.  Did about 26 mpg in the Legacy.  The mileage figures you get with your Accord are fantatstic.

sda

The 37-40mpg is primarily highway driving. It averages a consistent 29-31 mpg in my day to day driving. Still not bad, and I don't think the car lacks for power, though more is better!

explorerx4

If you own a new Fusion, especially in Minnesota, you better check the spare tire area.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/junk-in-the-trunk-new-ford-fusions-used-to-smuggle-mexican-marijuana/ar-BBAX91V?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=DELLDHP

berri

So it was a low rider

kevinl8888

i like the accord too... does pretty well against the rest. ranked #1 here https://typeofcars.com/category/midsize

benjaminh

I've owned my 2016 Accord EX for about 8 months, and have gone about 8k miles in that time. Highway mpg has been a pleasing c. 35-42. Love the AndroidAuto navigation.

benjaminh

For those who want a sporty sedan, there's a new option going on sale today—the 2017 Honda Civic Si. This model only comes with a 6-speed manual transmission, and so it will obviously be a very low volume model.

The styling is a bit over-the-top imho, but it seems like a nice car for the money for anyone out there who still wants a manual.

Since the Civic Si hasn't been available for about 2 years, the closest you could get recently was the Civic EX-T with the manual, which lists for $21,500. The Civic Si lists for 23,900, and here's what you get for that $2400:

More power (205 hp compared to 174 for the EX-T)
Upgraded suspension with two settings (Normal and Sport)
Bigger brakes
Upgraded manual transmission
Performance tires (V-Rated 235s compared to H-rated 215s for the EXT)
Red-stitched bolstered sport seats, metal pedals, special exhaust, etc
Limited slip differential
450-watt 10-speaker premium stereo from the Touring model

Otherwise the equipment is about the same as the EX-T, including AndroidAuto/CarPlay, Moonroof, dual-zone climate control, heated seats, pushbutton start/smart entry, etc.

This costs less than the VW GTI by a almost a couple of thousand dollars, and the Si has some things standard that are optional on the GTI, such as a moonroof, AndroidAuto, etc. The Honda engineer interviewed about it seemed happy to point out that it had a "natural" engine sound, compared with the synthetic sound generator that VW uses for their GTI.

Anyway, seems like a nice package for the price. The upgrades to the engine, suspension, brakes, transmission, and tires seem worth at least 2k, and then the styling stuff inside and out plus the much better stereo overall make it seem like a good deal for someone who want an low-priced sporty sedan. It's about the size of a BMW 320i, about as fast, and costs about $20,000 less when comparably equipped.

But, I'm one of the traitors to the manual cause, and am now quite happy with the smooth acceleration and excellent mpg of my Accord CVT....

benjaminh

For those few who might want a sporty sedan with a manual transmission, the new Honda Civic Si sedan goes on sale today for $23,900. Good package for the price. Compared to the Civic EX-T the Civic Si gets....

More powerful 205 hp engine (compared to 174 for the EXT)
Upgraded suspension with Normal and Sport settings
Bigger brakes
Upgraded tires (V-rated 235s on 18 inchers compared to 215 H-rated on 17" for the EXT)
Red-stitched bolstered seats, metal pedals, and other styling stuff inside and out
Limited slip differential
450-watt 10 speaker sound system from the Touring model

Otherwise, it's the same as the equipment on the EXT ($21,500), and so has a moonroof, pushbutton start, AndroidAuto/CarPlay, dual-zone climate, etc.

It's about $3000 less than a comparably equipped VW GTI.

ab348

The Si is likely not a bad car. Not really in the same class as a GTI though in terms of driving dynamics. VW and Honda are pretty much diametrically opposed in that department. People who like one don't like the other. And then there is the matter of the Honda's size and styling.

stickguy

benjaminh said:

For those few who might want a sporty sedan with a manual transmission, the new Honda Civic Si sedan goes on sale today for $23,900. Good package for the price. Compared to the Civic EX-T the Civic Si gets....

More powerful 205 hp engine (compared to 174 for the EXT)
Upgraded suspension with Normal and Sport settings
Bigger brakes
Upgraded tires (V-rated 235s on 18 inchers compared to 215 H-rated on 17" for the EXT)
Red-stitched bolstered seats, metal pedals, and other styling stuff inside and out
Limited slip differential
450-watt 10 speaker sound system from the Touring model

Otherwise, it's the same as the equipment on the EXT ($21,500), and so has a moonroof, pushbutton start, AndroidAuto/CarPlay, dual-zone climate, etc.

It's about $3000 less than a comparably equipped VW GTI.

thanks for the updates. I am really interested in seeing it. Could serve the same purpose as the GLI. For likely less money, with just as much equipment, and being a Honda, my wife won't complain! Just have to see what the styling and color options look like on this one.

value wise, it is a deal. Surprised it came in so low. Probably only missing some blind spot monitoring (wonder if it still has that goofy lane watch deal on the passenger side?)

stickguy

read through. 2 things that really bug me. The tiny (12 gallon? Really?) gas tank. And no spare tire or place for one thanks to the center exhaust (style over function). Just a mobility kit and toll free #. Yeah, don't think that is going to fly.

I would hate to have to eliminate a car I really like over something as silly as no spare (and not even run flats, not that I want them either). But the bombed out roads around here, just make me gun shy!

imidazol97

I had a chance to test mileage on the 2014 Malibu with 2.5 NA yesterday on relatively flat Indiana/Ohio interstate coming home from a car show 70 miles away. 43.5 mpg at 65 mph. No wind for once. No tailgating of semis to raise mileage as some folks have done that I've seen. I don't like the little stone chips kicked up and nicking the paint.

I've found the mileage from the computer closer than my earlier Buick and Cobalt on this Malibu. On the way over at 75-80 moving with left lane traffic, it showed 34.

These are not instantaneous readings: these are press the button to reset the average and drive 20 or more miles to see what it's averaging.

stickguy

pretty impressive. living in the flatlands certainly helps.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

read through. 2 things that really bug me. The tiny (12 gallon? Really?) gas tank. And no spare tire or place for one thanks to the center exhaust (style over function). Just a mobility kit and toll free #. Yeah, don't think that is going to fly.

I would hate to have to eliminate a car I really like over something as silly as no spare (and not even run flats, not that I want them either). But the bombed out roads around here, just make me gun shy!

The epa city mpg on the Civic Si is 28 x 12.3 gal = 344 mi range.

The epa city mpg on the VW GTI is 24 x 13.2 gal = 316 mi range

I myself would much rather call AAA or the Honda-included roadside service rather than change my own tire by the side of the road. Did that a couple of times in my life, and I basically decided never again.

benjaminh

My local Hyundai dealer now has brand-new 2017 Sonatas for less than $16,000. Heck of a lot of car for the money....

explorerx4

I only measure fuel mileage tank to tank.
Never really bothered with the instantaneous numbers.

Mr_Shiftright

344 mile range is certainly livable. Under 300 and it gets annoying for a daily driver.

benjaminh

I think the VW GTI is an impressive car, but with options the price climbs. We all can live without a sunroof, but most of us think it's a nice feature. But it's optional on the GTI. Same with smart entry/pushbutton start. And AndroidAuto/CarPlay, as far as I can see, isn't even available on the GTI. I personally wouldn't buy a new car without this feature at this point.

I'm not sure, but I don't think the GTI has a true limited-slip differential. I think it has an electronic simulation of one. Not sure how much of a difference that makes. Perhaps none at all? I certainly don't drive fast enough to appreciate something like that.

But the GTI obviously beats the Civic Si in terms of cargo room.

In terms of handling, I haven't seen a comparison test yet, but perhaps the GTI would have the edge there as well.

For mpg the Si is 4 mpg higher. I doubt Honda will sell many Civic Si's, because they are manual only. My guess is that half of GTI's sold are autos, and most seem to be autos at my local dealer.

I'm one of the traitors to the manual cause, and feel quite happy with the fast and smooth acceleration of the CVT in my Accord, and I love the great mpg.

But if I were buying a manual, I think I'd get the Civic EX-T 6-speed, which is said to be just as fast as the last generation Si, which seemed plenty fast to me. Plus the regular Civic doesn't have some of the "out-there" styling touches of the Si. I think a few people have even said that the EX-T is a almost like a somewhat soft and less expensive Si.

stickguy

that range number is misleading. at least to me, because I don't drive until the DTE is single digits. Normally I fill up at 1/4 tank, so effectively that is a 9 gallon tank, so maybe on the highway 350. Livable I guess for a car that won't be a long road trip one. actually better than our RDX (that has dismal range if I get stuck with some local driving or stop and go highway).

Not sure what it will get around town, real world. Hopefully the highway does push 40.

the EX-T 6 speed, isn't that coupe only? Or maybe it was EXT-L only stick in the coupe, and that is the model I would want (for the seats), but AT only in the sedan.

stickguy

As to the spare, I want one. If it is late, out in the boonies, etc. at least you can move. A tow truck does no good on a sunday night, if all it can do is dump you at some tire place in the middle of nowhere, to sleep in your car, waiting for it to open at some point. Only to find out they don't have the right tire in stock.

benjaminh

A Civic sedan EX-T 6-speed manual is made, but it's rare. My local dealer, for instance, only has the auto Civic EX-T in stock.

But if you can find one, the Civic EX Turbo 6MT not only has a spare, but gets considerably higher mpg: 31 in the city, 42 on the highway, and 35 combined. With the combined number and 2 gallons to spare you'd have a range of 350 miles.

The Civic EX-T 6-speed is a good deal at just $21.5 msrp. And discounts should be available, although nothing like what Hyundai is doing these days. Here's a video review of the manual:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPst8g0U1c8

stickguy

I did like that car. just have to see if I can live with the base manual seats. the Si has much nicer ones.

benjaminh

Here's another video review of the EX-T 6-speed turbo. He calls it "almost an Si" about 6 minutes in, and then at 7 minutes says "it's about as fast as the last generation Si."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeQbcuoZmWI

stickguy

I would definitely be all over the EXL version. But will attempt to find one of these to try out. still not sure I am going to look at a stick this time or not, but have seen good reviews of the CVT with this engine.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

I would definitely be all over the EXL version. But will attempt to find one of these to try out. still not sure I am going to look at a stick this time or not, but have seen good reviews of the CVT with this engine.

Honda's CVTs are very good imho. The Civic Turbo models actually get an upgraded Accord CVT to handle the extra power, and some people over at civicx.com have reported high 40s on the highway with that combo. If you don't have to have a manual, then you could go for leather, or even the Touring model. The Touring model seems to be kinda hard to find. I think a lot of people who would otherwise buy Acura or something else snatch those up. My local dealer doesn't even have any in stock right now, although they had a few a couple of months ago. Maybe they're keeping production limited on the Touring to make it "special"?? Maybe Acura told them to stop stealing their customers?

The Civic Touring even has heated rear seats. It also has the 450-watt sound system with 10-speakers, which I sometimes wish I had. The 6-speaker 150-watt stereo on my Accord EX is good enough, but....Anyway, the Touring has Honda Sensing standard, and honestly I feel mixed about that stuff.

A warning about all Accords and Civics right now is that only the base models of the new ones have a volume knob. That was obviously a mistake by Honda, although I'm living with it fine with the steering wheel control and dash panel slider. Honda knows they made a mistake, and are in the process of bringing the volume knob back. It's expected on the all-new Accord in a few months, and then on the Civic in maybe a year. It's already back on the new CR-V.

stickguy

the knob is not a biggie to me. I use the steering wheel controls.

Honda should have a lot of new sedans out soon. Accord in the fall, TLX next month, and I assume a new ILX (if they are keeping it around) by early next year.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Here's another video review of the EX-T 6-speed turbo. He calls it "almost an Si" about 6 minutes in, and then at 7 minutes says "it's about as fast as the last generation Si."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeQbcuoZmWI

Kind of like saying "Almost as skinny as Amy Schumer."

benjaminh

Top car sales for January-April:

Camry 114,887 -11.8%

Civic 112,865 -8.0%

Corolla 112,539 -7.9%

Accord 96,753 -10.9%

Altima 94,248 -17.2%

Cruze 75,240 +46.4%

Sentra 71,669 -12.7%

Elantra 70,548 +36.4%

Fusion 67,483 -29.5%

Sonata 54,163 -29.4%

Malibu 52,369 -34.5%

Focus 49,902 -24.6%

Optima 37,676 -8.1%

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/05/america-20-best-selling-cars-april-2017-sales-figures.html

benjaminh

midsize SUV sales for April:

CR-V 32,671 +17.3%

Rav4 31,757 +9.4%

Rogue 27,386 +18.2%

Escape 25,637 -.2%

Equinox 20,655 +.2%

Cherokee 14,083 -17%

CX5 11,334 +28.4%

ab348

Geez, the only sedans showing an increase are the Cruze and the Elantra.

benjaminh

Midsize only car sales for just April:

Camry 31,428 -4.1%

Accord 26,938 -11.3%

Altima 20,263 -28.9%

Malibu 17,364 -20.2%

Fusion 16,697 -19.5%

Sonata 16,294 +7.1%

Optima 10,731 -4.4%

Passat 6,148 +9.2%

Legacy 4,399 -21.3%

Mazda6 2,249 -42.8%

200 2,857 -54%

Stunning decline for the top-rated Mazda6. Toyota now sells in two days about the same number of 6s that Mazda sells in a month.

stickguy

Passat and sonata only 2 up. Interesting. Especially about the passsat.

benjaminh

Compact/midsize car sales for April:

Civic 31,211 -8.3%

Corolla 31,104 -4%

Cruze 21,317 +50.6%

Sentra 20,255 +5.8%

Elantra 16,346 +32.2

Focus 13,197 -17.4%

Forte 10,496 +7.8%

Jetta 9,398 -12.1%

Mazda3 5,980 -44.2%

Dart 1,286 -70%

Another massive decline for the top-rated Mazda3. What's going on there?

berri

I wonder if some are starting to get orphan fear about buying Mazda?

suydam

I think it has more to do with the limited styling options. It can be hard to find one without a black interior, which is a deal breaker for me. They also haven't been offering no the deals that their competitors have. It's always been a niche market. The CUV versions are probably eating into the sedan sales too.

Michaell

suydam said:

The CUV versions are probably eating into the sedan sales too.

The CX-5 and CX-9 are doing really well in the marketplace.

I guess the question is - if you aren't in the top 3 (or top 5) of the volume sellers for a particular body style, should you offer it?

Could Mazda, for example, get away with just SUV's and the Miata, dropping the 3 and 6 altogether?

akirby

Michaell said:

suydam said:

The CUV versions are probably eating into the sedan sales too.

The CX-5 and CX-9 are doing really well in the marketplace.

I guess the question is - if you aren't in the top 3 (or top 5) of the volume sellers for a particular body style, should you offer it?

Could Mazda, for example, get away with just SUV's and the Miata, dropping the 3 and 6 altogether?

Don't forget most vehicles are sold in other countries, not just the U.S. That changes the financial equation somewhat and can make lower volumes profitable.

Michaell

akirby said:

Michaell said:

suydam said:

The CUV versions are probably eating into the sedan sales too.

The CX-5 and CX-9 are doing really well in the marketplace.

I guess the question is - if you aren't in the top 3 (or top 5) of the volume sellers for a particular body style, should you offer it?

Could Mazda, for example, get away with just SUV's and the Miata, dropping the 3 and 6 altogether?

Don't forget most vehicles are sold in other countries, not just the U.S. That changes the financial equation somewhat and can make lower volumes profitable.

True - there are no domestically sourced Mazdas, is that correct?

akirby

Michaell said:

True - there are no domestically sourced Mazdas, is that correct?

Not since Ford kicked the Mazda6 out of Flat Rock a few years ago.

stickguy

I don't think Mazda could survive with no sedans at all. Not would they try. They already cut it down from 3 models to 2. I suppose it is possible they could combine the 3 and 6 into one model (like when Acura merged the TSX and TL into the TLX). My guess, however, is they keep both the 3 and 6.