Midsize Sedans 2.0

iluvmysephia1

Michaell - I'll make sure any more of my blather about wanting ta buy a 2017 Nissan Versa 5-speed sedan carries on over at the Cars and Conversations board instead of this Midsize Sedans one. I just get myself all excited at times over certain rigs I'm researching and want ta share 'em on whichever thread I'm perusing. It's all really impulsive. Perhaps that should warn me against doing anything trade-wise.

Something about the new car for under $10,000 thing that just gets me, though. Man. One YouTuber that posted his review of a dark blue 2017 Nissan Versa S 5-speed says that he loves his, he disagrees that the 2,400-lb. car gets inordinately blown about in heavy freeway winds, and won't listen to all the dorky things written about the car on the net. He briefly considered a used Lexus sedan or a BMW sedan used, but went with this Versa S 5-speed instead and loves it.

I think Nissan has done a good job with this pup and I have a lot of respect for Nissan as a competent carriage builder. Now and back with the cube, I still love the cube of theirs, and I really adore the '68 era Datsun 411 Bluebird 4-dr. sedan and their 510 4-dr. sedan as well. They're wid it, man.

We were at the Country Club Plaza in downtown KC today, Mrs. iluv and I, and walked into a Barnes & Noble. Correct, iluv went right upstairs to the car magazines. One of the latest American car mags took a 2017 Nissan Maxima 1 (the exact name eludes me) and races it against a 2016 BMW 435i RWD. So it's a RWD vs. a FWD car. Yep, the German's numbers for speed were better, but, and it is a big but, the Nissan Maxima delivered decidedly better in the fun to drive and handling  department. Go check the read out for a lot more details if you're interested. For Japanese cars, Nissan is my favorite, Kia comes in first from Korea.

American cars? Ford. But lately, Chevy's Malibu and Cruze are lookin' pretty good ta this small car lover. Chevy's done a great job on the bodies of those two 4-dr. sedans.

benjaminh

iluvmysephia: Feel free to talk here about your future Versa if you want. That's fine.

iluvmysephia1

iluvmysephia: Feel free to talk here about your future Versa if you want. That's fine.

With me it usually ends up being a sort of "battle of financial reason" with my wife. This one, though, assuming Stateline Nissan gives a fair amount on the trade-in of the Soul, would just start a new note, probably of 5 years. I'd like to work full-time another 4 1/2 years. Payments for the '17 Versa S would be around the same as they are on the Soul - maybe $15-$20 more a month, no big deal. If I can't go '0' down, though, that will halt the deal. They might, too, and I can come up with that but don't want to. My big pitch to the Mrs. will be "It's the last new car I'll buy", being careful ta leave out the word "ever" before buy. Ehh, ya never know, eh?

Here's one of those YouTube reviews of the Versa S with no AUX port:

https://youtu.be/JBN_uaR_yIc

sda

I learned the hard way many times never to say 'never' because then I do it, say it, buy it or regret it!!

iluvmysephia1

Exactly, sda. I say that already knowing that this bunch of guys on Edmund's will understand! It's not too hard ta find a rig you'd like ta plop in your driveway, huh?

andres3

iluvmysephia1 said:

Michaell - I'll make sure any more of my blather about wanting ta buy a 2017 Nissan Versa 5-speed sedan carries on over at the Cars and Conversations board instead of this Midsize Sedans one. I just get myself all excited at times over certain rigs I'm researching and want ta share 'em on whichever thread I'm perusing. It's all really impulsive. Perhaps that should warn me against doing anything trade-wise.

Something about the new car for under $10,000 thing that just gets me, though. Man. One YouTuber that posted his review of a dark blue 2017 Nissan Versa S 5-speed says that he loves his, he disagrees that the 2,400-lb. car gets inordinately blown about in heavy freeway winds, and won't listen to all the dorky things written about the car on the net. He briefly considered a used Lexus sedan or a BMW sedan used, but went with this Versa S 5-speed instead and loves it.

I think Nissan has done a good job with this pup and I have a lot of respect for Nissan as a competent carriage builder. Now and back with the cube, I still love the cube of theirs, and I really adore the '68 era Datsun 411 Bluebird 4-dr. sedan and their 510 4-dr. sedan as well. They're wid it, man.

We were at the Country Club Plaza in downtown KC today, Mrs. iluv and I, and walked into a Barnes & Noble. Correct, iluv went right upstairs to the car magazines. One of the latest American car mags took a 2017 Nissan Maxima 1 (the exact name eludes me) and races it against a 2016 BMW 435i RWD. So it's a RWD vs. a FWD car. Yep, the German's numbers for speed were better, but, and it is a big but, the Nissan Maxima delivered decidedly better in the fun to drive and handling  department. Go check the read out for a lot more details if you're interested. For Japanese cars, Nissan is my favorite, Kia comes in first from Korea.

American cars? Ford. But lately, Chevy's Malibu and Cruze are lookin' pretty good ta this small car lover. Chevy's done a great job on the bodies of those two 4-dr. sedans.

For me, the pinnacle of Nissan was when the '92 Maxima with 190 powerful horses came out.

I thank Nissan for helping fan the flames of a HP war that seemed to last up until about 2015, with the power of cars seemingly stalling, or going downhill since then.

I mean you have 4-banger BMW's and Mercedes now. You have 4-banger muscle cars from Ford and Chevy. And then you have VW selling the same power numbers in the GTI that they were selling 11 years ago.

akirby

andres3 said:

I mean you have 4-banger BMW's and Mercedes now. You have 4-banger muscle cars from Ford and Chevy. And then you have VW selling the same power numbers in the GTI that they were selling 11 years ago.

You even have 4 banger Porsche Boxsters and Caymans now that are faster than the old NA flat 6.

stickguy

I've never really cared about cylinder count. Just production.

sda

May be its just me but I have yet to hear a four cylinder that sounds as good as a 6 or V8. Modern 4 cylinders do perform well and are quite powerful, no question there.

andres3

I'm happy with a powerful 4-cylinder, but that doesn't mean there hasn't been a downward trend in power as of late with just a few exceptions.

320i vs. 328i

Audi appears to have done away with the lowly 1.8T on the A3 at least.

Mercedes has always had a tiny base engine option it seems.

Acura TL downsized and down in power to TLX.

explorerx4

My 89 SHO would chew up those 90's Maxima's.

sda

explorerx4 said:

My 89 SHO would chew up those 90's Maxima's.

I test drove one and tried to buy it only the dealer really low balled my trade.

explorerx4

@sda,
Too bad you missed out. I had an 89 and a 92. My wife had a 96.

Michaell

explorerx4 said:

@sda,
Too bad you missed out. I had an 89 and a 92. My wife had a 96.

I had an SHO as a rental once, in Minneapolis. Drove it into Wisconsin, where my customer was. Great fun!

andres3

SHO..... I have an inkling this is some type of Ford, either a super Taurus or Mustang?

Michaell

andres3 said:

SHO..... I have an inkling this is some type of Ford, either a super Taurus or Mustang?

Super High Output Taurus.

1st gen had a Yamaha sourced V6 with 225 HP; 2nd gen had a 3.4L V8, also from Yamaha.

Current gen has the 3.5L EcoBoost with 375 HP (same as the Fusion Sport, I think).

andres3

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

SHO..... I have an inkling this is some type of Ford, either a super Taurus or Mustang?

Super High Output Taurus.

1st gen had a Yamaha sourced V6 with 225 HP; 2nd gen had a 3.4L V8, also from Yamaha.

Current gen has the 3.5L EcoBoost with 375 HP (same as the Fusion Sport, I think).

this was back when the Taurus wasn't a barge. I can see how it would win, in a straight line, how did it handle though?

Question for people with Mustangs, is the insurance through the roof? The internet is littered with driver's over-confident in their ability to drive a powerful Mustang RWD car running into stationary objects.

Michaell

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

SHO..... I have an inkling this is some type of Ford, either a super Taurus or Mustang?

Super High Output Taurus.

1st gen had a Yamaha sourced V6 with 225 HP; 2nd gen had a 3.4L V8, also from Yamaha.

Current gen has the 3.5L EcoBoost with 375 HP (same as the Fusion Sport, I think).

this was back when the Taurus wasn't a barge. I can see how it would win, in a straight line, how did it handle though?

Question for people with Mustangs, is the insurance through the roof? The internet is littered with driver's over-confident in their ability to drive a powerful Mustang RWD car running into stationary objects.

Yep, gen 1 was the original Taurus from 1985. Gen 2 was the "ovoid" Taurus from the mid 90's.

Both of which competed with the Camry and Accord for the title of best selling car.

akirby

Michaell said:

Both of which competed with the Camry and Accord for the title of best selling car.

And didn't generate a dime of profit in the process because they had to give them away both in retail and fleet form. Right before the Atlanta factory was shut down (and later replaced by the Porsche Driving Experience) they were building 400K Tauruses a year and they were 100% fleet sales.

roadburner

andres3 said:

Question for people with Mustangs, is the insurance through the roof? The internet is littered with driver's over-confident in their ability to drive a powerful Mustang RWD car running into stationary objects.

Before I bought the 2er I was also looking at Mustang GTs, Boss 302s, and SRT8 Challengers- all cars that run the quarter in 13 seconds or less(I wanted a car that I could call "fast" with a relatively straight face). The annual quotes for the ponycars as well as the 2er were all within about $400 of each other. The Mustangs were at the lower end IIRC. For me, $1.10 per day isn't worth obsessing over and it had no bearing on my ultimate decision.

fushigi

Since others brought up the Mustang, how about a $10 raffle ticket for a chance at a 460 HP restored '71 Mach 1? Need not be present to win or buy tickets; proceeds to JDRF. There's a pic in the Eventbrite link in the article. http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/1971-ford-mustang-mach-1-to-be-raffled-off-to-benefit-jdrf/

Mr_Shiftright

I checked that charity on Charity Navigator and it is rated as meeting most industry standards but "underperforming" relative to other charities of its type and focus. Just an FYI.

akirby

JDRF is the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation and is a long time favorite charity for Ford and the Ford family.

Mr_Shiftright

Interesting. I wonder if they've checked on it lately.

explorerx4

Motorweek chose 2017 Fusion as best family sedan.
Of course, they also chose Titan as best pickup.

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/ford-fusion-named-best-family-sedan-2017-motorweek-drivers-choice-awards/

ab348

Yeah, they have a long list.

2017 Drivers’ Choice Winners:

Best Small Car Honda Civic*

Best Family Sedan Ford Fusion

Best Convertible Mini Cooper Convertible

Best Luxury Sedan Mercedes-Benz E300

Best Sport Sedan Audi A4

Best Sport Coupe Chevrolet Camaro*

Best Performance Car BMW M2

Best Small Utility Honda CR-V

Best Large Utility Mazda CX-9

Best Luxury Utility Jaguar F-Pace

Best Minivan Chrysler Pacifica

Best Pickup Truck Nissan Titan*

Best Eco-Friendly Chevrolet Bolt EV

Best Dream Machine Acura NSX

McLaren 570GT

Porsche 911 Turbo S

roadburner

Those are all very solid choices; I can't find much fault with them.

benjaminh

If Trump does his 20% tax on vehicles imported from Mexico, will the Mexican-made Ford Fusion be priced out of the market? Are there any other midsize sedans made in Mexico?

sda

Lincoln MKZ, though it is a luxury midsize. As a whole there are a lot of vehicles produced by the major manufacturers that will be subject to the tax and passed onto the consumer. Almost too many to list. Ouch!

Mr_Shiftright

benjaminh said:

If Trump does his 20% tax on vehicles imported from Mexico, will the Mexican-made Ford Fusion be priced out of the market? Are there any other midsize sedans made in Mexico?

It would be illegal to single out a manufacturer for a tariff, so that's not going to happen.

fushigi

It appears Mexico does $25 billion a year in parts. http://www.worldstopexports.com/automotive-parts-exports-country/ (I've never used this site before but the data seems reasonable.)

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

benjaminh said:

If Trump does his 20% tax on vehicles imported from Mexico, will the Mexican-made Ford Fusion be priced out of the market? Are there any other midsize sedans made in Mexico?

It would be illegal to single out a manufacturer for a tariff, so that's not going to happen.

Yes, but I think Trump has threatened not one but all car factories in Mexico with this tax.

Mr_Shiftright

Still probably illegal, and also not within his executive powers. He'd lose in court.

benjaminh

Regardless of what happens with the border tax, it seems likely the Trump Administration will kill some or all the Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules. These rules have brought about all sorts of improvements to the engineering of cars and trucks over the past 8 years. My 2016 Accord, for instance, gets about 20-25% better mpg than my old 2008 Accord. The 2008 Accord was rated by the EPA at 25 mpg combined city/highway, while the current Accord is rated at an even 30. The plan was to move that number to c. 36 mpg by 2025, which is an additional 20% improvement. But, as I've said, I think that's now likely dead. It's possible the rules will be frozen at the 2021 level, which would be c. 33 mpg combined for midsize cars.

The next all-new Accord, due in c. 6 months as a 2018 model, will probably be rated at c. 33 combined.

In other words, if the new rules are killed, then it's basically give up, and say we've got the mpg improvements that we can, and let the market decide mpg going forward....

What about the 54 mpg? That was never in the cards, but the car companies endlessly keep using that number to kill CAFE. 54 represents the way the epa measured mpg back in 1975 when the CAFE began. It's more or less the same as going a steady 55 mph without AC on a level road. In other words, near-impossible conditions almost never found by any driver. Translating 54 mpg CAFE to today's EPA window sticker would give you c. 36 mpg combined or so.

In other words, the car companies are about to kill 36 mpg for a midsize car 8 years from now. Oh well....I guess 33 will have to be good enough.

benjaminh

from auto news:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170212/OEM/170219966/automakers-press-trump-to-review-2025-mpg-targets

Automakers press Trump to review 2025 mpg targets
February 12, 2017 @ 12:44 pm
David Shepardson
Reuters

....Trump EPA nominee Scott Pruitt told a Senate panel he will review the Obama administration's decision.

In 2011, Obama announced an agreement with automakers to raise fuel efficiency standards to 54.5 miles per gallon. The target, the administration said, would save motorists $1.7 trillion in fuel costs over the life of the vehicles, but cost the auto industry about $200 billion over 13 years.

The EPA said in July that because Americans were buying fewer cars and more crossovers, SUVs and trucks, it estimated the fleet will average 50.8 mpg to 52.6 mpg in 2025.

benjaminh

https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/good-and-bad-news-emerges-from-cafes-fine-print.html

A useful article that gives CAFE numbers for various vehicles up until 2025. To convert a CAFE mpg number to the actual number on the EPA window sticker multiply by .7. And so 54 x .7 = 37.8, but then there are various credits manufacturers get that make it so that actual number on the window sticker would be more like 36.

ab348

I never quite understood the point of CAFE. If fuel was taxed like it is elsewhere, the market would drive automakers towards fuel efficiency.

akirby

Because it's easier to regulate the mfrs than it is to incentivize consumers. And theoretically the mfrs just change the way they build vehicles so there isn't a big financial impact on consumers as there would be with a tax. I think hybrids and EVs are providing more than enough competition to keep improving MPG without added regulations or taxes.

Mr_Shiftright

ab348 said:

I never quite understood the point of CAFE. If fuel was taxed like it is elsewhere, the market would drive automakers towards fuel efficiency.

The problem with heavily taxing fuel is that it sucks huge amounts of money out of the economy. It might produce more efficient cars, but no doubt would drive up the cost of everything transported.

iluvmysephia1

Stateline Nissan in Kansas City raised the price of that 2017 Nissan Versa 5-speed my wife wouldn't let me buy anyway to $12,230. It was selling for $9,699. Incentives lapsing early? There is $1,000 Nissan incentive cash that would come off that, too.

berri

The Mexico import tax will just push Mexico toward Asia and Europe. Wouldn't be surprised to see Chinese military visiting there in a few years if it happens. It will also likely jack up car prices in the US, but not jobs so much. Most will be done by automation in the States if they have to expand plants here.

Mr_Shiftright

The Great Depression of 1929 is a good example of what happens in a global tariff war.

berri

Also, during that timeframe there was a huge disparity between the wealthy and everyone else. It is kind of scary, but I think we do have some better financial controls these days (until Congress dismantles it all at least).

[Deleted User]

berri said:

While this new CEO trained under Mullaly, got to think he is more old school Detroit or another Jacques Nasser with focus too broad. It seems FOMOCO has been going downhill since he took over. Kind of sad really!

HEY GUYS! am glad to be back! Still have the 2012 Optima EX. I have an appointment Weds to fix the A/C Like the FOMOCO, things seem to be going downhill. What I didn't say is that the A/C has failed 3 times in 56,340 miles. They said they would put dye in the Freon and to please come back in 60 days for a diagnosis. I did that...twice.Fortunately it is a slow leak . This time I want a loaner. I don't care what kind of car it is, but they said they needed two days at the shop to really diagnose it. Oh, BTW, has anyone seen the higher end Kia's on the road??? Like Cadenza or the K900?? Me neither.

Also, Hyundai nixed their whole name on high end cars, and now just calls them "Genesis"

Where have I been? I have been through two horrific surgeries. So here it goes. First surgery due to infection from a Fox bite. The 3 month old pup was biting my cat...and my Siamese attacked and I had to pry them apart. Bad idea. What I couldn't understand was after I begged and begged and begged again........
SHE REFUSED to give antibiotics to a patient with a 12" long and 2" deep incision to an Immuno-suppressed patient and sure enough it got massively infected and she cut me open right in the exam room and I remember them pushing gunk down and out of my upper arm and it was spraying out of the bite. Sorry for that TMI so anyway she had to do a revision surgery and the wound was now 15" long and she had to cut 3 tendons on my right hand. This time the wound had to heal with only 3 stitches and I was put on massive antibiotics that were infused daily, and then after that, I had pill antibiotics.I had to visit the office daily to have the wound packed. It sucked.

Back to the Optima, Kia has quietly extended the powertrain warranty on the 2.4 liter models to 10 year, 125 miles.

berri

What an ordeal man! I guess we could say you were in the body shop I know, that was bad. Hope you keep getting better.

suydam

I don't believe the selling of toll roads ever came about, although there was talk of it several years ago.

Michaell

Glad you noted that. Those last few posts had nothing to do with mid sized sedans.

Let's stay between the lines, shall we?

Mr_Shiftright

All political posts were removed for being off-topic. If you want to talk in general terms about how the price of particular cars might be affected by things like tariffs, that might be okay as it could be information that a car buyer might be interested in.

Leasing toll roads is an interesting topic, but not for here. Thank you all for staying on course in the future.

thebean

@cski, that's quite a wound.  I think I would find another doctor since she wouldn't give you antibiotics.  Bad news on the Kia's AC.  Hope you can get it resolved.  

benjaminh

Hang in there cski!