Midsize Sedans 2.0

smarty666

I'm sorry my friend, but the new Maxima now, is nothing like what the I30 or I35 were. Those vehicles were just rebadaged Nissan's at that time and as you would not pay for a Maxima now, know one at that time was paying that much more for a guised up Maxima, which those vehicles were.

To be honest, you can get a great deal on the new Maxima, I certainly did when I got a brand new 2010 last Summer. A lot of people I know and online are getting fully loaded ones in the mid 30s, which isn't bad considering its almost 40 fully loaded. Was the primary reason, despite really loving the new body style for getting one. Plus, it was much bigger and much more comfortable, both in the seat and ride then a G37. Plus you got a heated steering wheel, plus many more luxury sedan features, which you still can't get in the G today and normally would have to be in a M price range to get.

The only mistake Nissan made on the new Maxima, was in the marketing department. Nissan thinks that this new Max is a four door sports sedan like a G37 and 3-Series but it is not. While I like the CVT and FWD, those two things preclude the Max from becoming a true four door sports sedan. It drives and rides more on the luxury comfort side and Nissan should have marketed it as a sporty upscale sedan.

dash5

I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time if you're shopping at the very top of the affordable midsize market (all the names you mentioned: Sonata - Accord - Altima - Camry - Fusion - Malibu - Legacy - Mazda 6) you could also be in range of a car like a G37 or A4.

I'm in that situation myself. I want to spend under 35k. For that price I can get a loaded V6 Altima or a loaded turbo Sonata or Optima and still have plenty of room. Or, I could get a halfway decently equipped G37 and spend every penny of that 35k. So it's a trade off. Problem for me is, I dont want a RWD car and I dont like the look of the new TL. I'd have to get AWD/Quattro and that's more money that I cant spend on luxury options like tech packages and such.

temj12

You are correct. You could save on destination charges if buying in Detroit. No more. As you say, they are all the same. In Detroit, there is a Ford dealer across the street from the Mustang Factory. Instead of driving them across the street, they are shipped and the destination charge is the same.

smarty666

Well maybe its different, in different parts of the country, but here in PA, NJ and NY, I have never seen a G37 under $37k on the window and a TL never under $34k for the basic trim level cars. The A4 I have never seen on the window under $35k either, hence based on price, I wouldn't put them in the mainstream mid-size category since the most expensive I've seen any of them get it in the Altima and Camry and that is at about $31-32k.

Now that is here, apparently its different in your neck of the woods.

plekto

Well, you can always get the previous model TL or a 1-2 year old CTS or something like that for 25K. There's no sin in buying a certified car that's only 1-2 years old.

And, really - click on this:
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USC00INC142B0&restor- e=false
(Pasadena, CA as an example)
They've been running that rebate of $1-2K for half a year now. Going into this fall, you might see another 1-2K on top of that.

Let's go down the options list:
- Performance Tires - Skip. Unless you want your chiropractor to get rich.
- Aero Package - Skip. Ugly bling. Bling, unless it's very tastefully done makes it look cheap and not luxury.
- Technology Package - Skip. The normal cruise control works fine. What we're talking about here is AI controlled cruise and so on like the M has. Which costs a fortune to fix when it breaks. Rain sensing wipers are also not worth $1K.
- $1600 for a nav system is usurious. Skip.
- Skip the sport package. In stock trim, it's just where that "Euro" feel is. note - Mercedes also has this problem. The stock suspension is perfect. The Sport ruins it. If you want to shred paper-thin low profile tires all day long, just get the 350Z.
- The premium package is debatable. I don't like terrarium roofs, but YMMV. The seats already have memory functions and so on - this really is all electronic goodies and pricey at that. The stock radio if you look below is the same minus the Bose nonsense.

That's one realistic "maybe" option at $1800 so far. But it does have the wood trim included. That's very nice.

So that's one option, maybe. And of course, the splash guards to keep the paint nice.

$33799 before delivery charge is added. That's right in your 30-35K range.

I'd have added the Lexus ES350 to the list as well, but they make you pay for floor mats and other idiocy like the luxury package requiring nav. 37K is pretty much unavoidable, which is a shame, since it's a nice car otherwise.

m6user

It's been like that for many, many years. Not sure when it changed but probably back in the 60s or 70s. There are legitimate reasons for charging the same destination charge nationwide but there is no reason now to break it out as a separate charge on the maroney label. If it's the same everywhere, just include it in the retail/invoice price and forget about it. It's strictly a marketing tool at this point.

m6user

If you want to pay $5-7K for chrome and excessive bling as well as $2000+ for a navigation system hardly any better than a $200 Garman you can stick in your pocket(let alone use a *map*) - that's your money I guess.

Why do people always like to make other people sound stupid if they like the techno and bling. It's there choice, comments aren't necessary. He was just comparing apples to apples, equip level to equip level which is something that you never like to do. No offense but apples to apples is not comparing a new car to a used one. A used one might be really, really good but it is not the same as a brand new one and never will be.

backy

Apparently a lot of people are cross-shopping the TL and stepping up a level.

They may be cross-shopping, but not cross-buying. Only 14k TLs sold in 2010 through May. That's fewer cars than the Accord, Altima, Camry, Fusion, Sonata etc. sell in one month.

dash5

Nope I'm in NJ. I priced out for example, the Infiniti G37 x with premium package. Edmunds gives me MSRP: 39,065. Invoice: 36,032 and TMV: 35,961. So yeah on the window you wont see it for under 37k but I could get that car, in theory, for about 36k + TTL. Over my budget by more than I'm comfortable with.

So instead of that I'm leaning more towards a loaded Optima Turbo, which I hope to get for around 8k less and fully loaded.

plekto

Ah. I see your problem. I checked just over the border in Pennsylvania and the prices at Cars Direct are over $1000 lower. $33,364. You can get one like that for 33-34K if you shop around.

smarty666

I'm confused now? I was talking about msrp and maybe you were talking about TMV, that could make a difference in what we are talking about.

Quick story, I've used the edmunds TMV along with 1 or 2 other sites dealer invoice and when I've gone to the stealers around here and they caught me with those papers, they always say, "oh you can't go by them, they have no idea what our dealer cost is!"

Oh I just love when they say that. I just laugh and laugh to myself. They might not be exact, but how funny that when we start to crunch numbers they are always pretty damn close when we come out to the sales price on the car!

I meant to say, on the Infiniti lots here in NJ, the msrp's on the all the G37's I've seen are $39k something for AWD plus the premium package or $42k something for AWD, premium package, and nav package!

Same thing with the TL, the lowest I've seen the msrp is like $35k something for the base TL.

midas69

Zip code here is Los Angeles. I think that's pretty "normal"(even if the city itself isn't)

Numbers here are a little different. The Infiniti comes in at $31,900 and the TL actually goes just over $32K. For me, at least, the Infiniti isn't even a consideration since it's RWD. Obviously being in L.A. you'd have a different perspective on this.

I'd have to do more research on the TL to see what else is missing without the technology package. I know on the 2005 TL I owned it was either with or without NAV. But judging by the price of the technology package I would guess there's more to it. I know when I looked at the RDX you didn't even get bluetooth unless you bought it. That's a deal breaker for me. But hey, my last 4 cars have all had factory NAV so really, regardless of the opinion of others such as yourself, that's what I'm buying.

But even without it, that's still just under $7K more than the Sonata. That's a lot of bucks. Even with the extra price of the turbo, it's going to be a big price difference.

Remember the Sonata right now is selling hot and the prices have become inflated. When I got mine back in March I paid the same price for the Limited with NAV as Cars Direct is quoting for one without. A year from now you're going to see the Limited with NAV and turbo going for around $28K and without for around $26K. You're not going to see the TL or Infiniti drop from what you see today. If anything, they will go up.

Basically I disagree that Hyundai or Kia is pricing themselves into the next class of cars. They are going to compete with the Camry and Accord. They are not targeting the Infiniti or Acura.

m6user

A lot of people I know and online are getting fully loaded ones in the mid 30s, which isn't bad considering its almost 40 fully loaded.

If you go on the G37 forums they are routinely getting $5k off of MSRP so you can get a G37x for around $35k for a $40k+ car. I realize the old I35 were pretty much rebadged Maximas but the upcharge wasn't all that much either compared to the Max and you got the service and extra warranty of Infiniti with it so it wasn't a rip off. I think most people who bought them knew what they were getting....it wasn't a big secret.

It's just like my QX4. We were looking at Pathfinders but, on a lark, decided to see what we could get the QX4 for. We were pleased when we got the QX4 for less than Nissan would deal for Pathfinder and we were trading in a Maxima! The Nissan salesman literally threw my keys on the desk when I told him the deal that was offered at Infiniti and told me to go it there then. I did and have loved the vehicle.

Anyway, what do you think of the new Buick Regal? It's only out in a sedate I4 form but it looks very nice and seems solid.

m6user

Check the prices paid forums on the G37. People are routinely getting $5k off MSRP. But I agree, before I buy anything I'm waiting for the Optima turbo to come and check that out. I like the styling better than the Sonata and the equip looks a little different. Something else interesting is the Sportage. It's a new style like the Tucson but it's getting the turbo as well. A little pocket rocket CUV anyone?

dash5

Yeah at the end of the day, I'll see what I can get the Optima/Sonata for and what I can get an A4 Quattro or G37x for and decide that way. Throw in the new Buick Regal to that equation as well.

I like the Optima styling better in pictures, and I like that it has the UVO (Ford Sync like system).

smarty666

Yeah, but each vehicle is selling to a different crowd. Plus, the premium package on the Max comes with 7 or 8 luxury sedan features, that the G still doesn't so you have to choose what driving style you have, if you have a family, and if you want those extra luxury features the Max has that the G doesn't. It really comes down to you what your specifically looking for.

The new regal was nice, definitely a huge step in the right direction for a Buick and I think will be an excellent competitor to the G25, TSX, and IS250 in the performance department but their interior was not quite up to the high quality of the Japanese in my opinion. Too many things on the dash and console felt cheap and the seats, at least for me, were ridiculously too firm on my back, even fully depressed, and I had to get out of the car after 1-2 minutes because of how much pain I had in my back.

Seat comfort is highly subjective though

smarty666

Becareful in the prices paid forums and keep in mind, what some people get off in one part of the country do not get in other parts. I know my local Infiniti dealers are not giving 5k off right now. Around where I live the max has been around 3k if your lucky and haggle a bit.

Also, their is an Infiniti General Manager on those finance and lease threads who routinely reports what his dealership and local dealerships in Texas are giving off and what they give off and have for incentives for Texas are typically very different in other parts of the country.

m6user

Around the Chicago area the dealers are pretty much advertising $5k off any G37x. I read the G37x forums on a daily basis so I know what you're talking...ie sewellgsm and he simply reports on his dealerships...not others in Texas. He gives averages but if you look at them you realize that they gave deals that low as well...nust not as many. It's just how informed the customer is and how hard they are willing to negotiate.

Luckily, here in Chicago there is good competition between dealers so the prices are good. I believe most major metro areas that have 3 or more Infiniti dealers are going to see good prices. In more remote markets...not as good. But that goes for just about any make of car.

In the old days you could play one make against the other across the street but so many dealers now own mutltiple brands they say....go ahead, I own that dealership too. So living in a larger metro area may have it's disadvantages but for car buying it definitely helps.

smarty666

yeah, I should have been more specific, he only reports his dealers, and other edmunds members who live in Texas try and see if they can get numbers for their local dealers from him! usually he plays it pretty cool though :shades:

dash5

Well the current plan, is to wait on at least the Optima/Sonata turbo models to be available. I'll test drive those, price out what it will cost me OTD and then see where I am. If I can get out of the lot for 27-28k+TTL that's gonna be tough to beat. I'd have to go used at that point.

I pass by a black G35x sedan every day on my commute. Not sure of what model year it is but it's beautiful no doubt. 2008 model with 20k ish miles on it would run me about 25,000 or so.

I dont know. It's all a trade off I guess.

ergsum

Sonata Most Shopped

kfdmed

interior is very nice and upscale looking. I thought I wanted the black leather/aluminum but after seeing the the above combo in person I have changed my mind ... which is unfortunate since that combo is hard to find used.

plekto

Yeah, the light interior and wood plus a dark exterior makes it look and feel lot like a Mercedes or maybe close to an Audi. You can only get that on the Journey trim and it is a specific added option. Note - a realer might be able to retrofit it to your stock sedan for a few hundred dollars labor.(plus the parts of course - that's about $500)

sanish

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38030466/ns/business-autos/

bobad

Wow, when it rains it pours over at Toyota.

When people are on top, they feel invincible. I guess car makers are the same way.

I think they'll slow down and get back on track in a year or 2.

acdii

Maybe $1m an hour isnt enough for them. LOL :shades: :lemon:

dash5

K5 beat Sonata in Korean sales last month. There has to be reviews out there on this thing, I assume they're all in Korean though.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/07/02/2010070200796.html

[QUOTE]K5 Dethrones Sonata as Top-Selling Car

The newly-released Kia K5 has outsold the Hyundai Sonata in the domestic market, according to an industry report released on Thursday.

Kia Motors sold 10,673 units of the K5 last month while sister company Hyundai Motor sold 9,957 Sonatas. It is the first time a Kia mid-sized sedan has topped the monthly sales chart since the company was acquired by Hyundai in 1998.

The K5 hit the market in late May and sold 3,552 units within the first week of its debut.

Market watchers are calling the K5's rise above the Sonata an industry landmark. The Sonata was the invincible leader of the mid-sized sedan category for 11 years, and it continually ruled the monthly sales chart except for July 2003 when it was overtaken by the Renault Samsung SM5 due to a Hyundai labor strike.
[/QUOTE]

iluvmysephia1

this news about the new 2011 Kia K5 (Optima's name in SK) outselling Sonata is groundbreaking and really quite refreshing. It is more success coming from new Design Chief Peter Schreyer of Kia (formerly the Design Chief of Audi Motors). You'll see Audi cues on new Kia's, but mostly on the new Kia SUV's.

The new 2011 Kia Optima will face very stiff competition, but backy is right, all the hullabulloo I raised supporting the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi will be thrown out the door when the new '11 Kia Optima comes out. Hard ta argue with that Minnesotan. Competition will be fierce but this new midsize from Kia is great and the new Cadenza (the next Kia slot-size sedan up in size a tad) they are developing will be absolutely gorgeous, too.

But I still love the new 2010 Suzuki Kizashi and I kind of like the Ford Fusion Hybrid, too. Really a decent looking body design and ever since a team of hypermilers got 81.5mpg driving 1445.7 miles on a single tank of gas April 28, 2009, I've been following the Ford Fusion Hybrid from the cheap seats.

cannon3

Well, I have over 63,000 miles on my 06 Fusion SEL V6. No problems with the vehicle. I am very picky on the maintenance side of things. Oil changes every 3- 4,000 miles, transmission flush at 35,000, radiator flush every 2 years. No squeaks or rattles on the interior side of things. Interior holding up well with 2 kids/friends. Carpet a bit dirty in places and looking a little worn in some places. Wind noise is happening around the windshield at speeds above 60MPH. Also noticed a bit of wind noise around the sunroof area. Overall, I would give the car an 8 out of 10 after 5 years of ownership. I would recommend the Fusion be on your shopping list, and deserving of a test drive. :shades:

bobad

The Fusion will definitely be on my short list when I buy a car in a year or 2. I hope the interior looks better than last time I sat in one. Interior design is a consideration, but I won't let it stop me if the car is otherwise top notch. It would have to be butt-ugly to stop me. I hope Fusion is working on their prices. Last time I did a price check, the value wasn't there.