Midsize Sedans 2.0

suydam

sda said:

Sad to see the Mazda6 sales drop 21%, they are very nice cars.

I shopped the Mazda 3 recently when we looked for our second car. It's a great car. Ultimately I went with the Chevy Volt. Not only is the gas mileage amazing, the lease deal offered was essentially the same as the lease deal offered by Mazda -- and the Mazda is a much less expensive car. And in our area every single Mazda came with a black interior. That's a deal breaker for me.
I would really like it if they got into the hybrid and plug in game.

ab348

How the heck is the Sentra up while some much better compacts are down?

stickguy

I really like that Camry. Forgot to check when it comes out. Wonder if will be at philly show in a few weeks? Could make the Lexus ES an afterthought to me!

Mr_Shiftright

ab348 said:

How the heck is the Sentra up while some much better compacts are down?

I think the Altima lifts it.

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

sda said:

Sad to see the Mazda6 sales drop 21%, they are very nice cars.

I agree with you @sda. Mazda needs to do something to stand out in this ultra competitive segment. They know how to do exterior styling, driving dynamics, & interior appointments very nicely. To get my very hard earned dollars, they've got to offer some sort of upgraded powertrain (turbo 4) & AWD.

That's why they lost me- abandoning Mazdaspeed editions was not a smart move.

andres3

benjaminh said:

Compact/midsize sales for December:

Civic 31,482

Corolla 31,209

Elantra 19,556

Cruze 17,324

Sentra 17,037

Jetta 13,079

Focus 10,242

Mazda3 8,102

Forte 7,560

Impreza 5,126

Dart 1,525

Lancer 860

To put the Civic's numbers in perspective, it is about equal with the bottom 6 combined.

andres3

suydam said:

sda said:

Sad to see the Mazda6 sales drop 21%, they are very nice cars.

I shopped the Mazda 3 recently when we looked for our second car. It's a great car. Ultimately I went with the Chevy Volt. Not only is the gas mileage amazing, the lease deal offered was essentially the same as the lease deal offered by Mazda -- and the Mazda is a much less expensive car. And in our area every single Mazda came with a black interior. That's a deal breaker for me.
I would really like it if they got into the hybrid and plug in game.

Seems maybe Mazda hired too many former Pontiac Execs.

The Asian Pontiac.

akirby

Mazda is just too small, not enough dealers or products.

Focus fell off a cliff due to no significant updates in almost 6 years and none planned for another 2 plus the transmission problems.

explorerx4

Took my Fusion to the car wash today, so it looks clean for the first time in a while.
Here in the Northeast you should get the underneath washed every month, if possible due to the chemical put down before it is supposed to snow.
It eats rubber seals.

benjaminh

11-minute video showing Honda Associates building the 2017 Civic at Honda's factory in Indiana. Interesting stuff imho:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvAUDP-zgnM

nyccarguy

Taking my Legacy to the dealer later this afternoon. It has developed a whining noise coming from the right rear suspension. The faster I go, the louder it gets.

benjaminh

Similar video showing the building of the 2017 Honda Accord at the Marysville, Ohio plant. My family has purchased 4 Accords made at Marysville—a 2002, a 2008, a 2013, and a 2016, all of which have been very good cars for us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oyJcY6D9n4

andres3

Despite the shenanigans with the '03 Accord V6 transmission, I still consider that car a very reliable car overall, and it definitely had its share of fit/finish/hardware/trim/power seat issues. Nit pick issues, but issues nonetheless. Still, compared to the Dodge experience, it wasn't even playing in the same sport.

Ran like new at 65,000 miles and 50 months old, which made it sell-able for 53% of my out the door expense.

benjaminh

Midsize Chrysler 200 dead, but supplies linger, says an article in The Truth About Cars:

"Want A New Chrysler 200? It’s Dead, But There’s Surely No Shortage of Supply
By Timothy Cain on January 26, 2017

....The 200’s already tarnished name, indelibly linked to its Sebring predecessor, was certainly not helped when FCA boss Sergio Marchionne threw his own employees under the bus, calling those responsible for its design “dummies.” Meanwhile, workers responsible for building the 200 in Sterling Heights were tasked with maintaining morale for nearly a year after their boss had harshly criticized the product.

Combined with an easy-to-criticize nine-speed transmission, a reputation for poor reliability, dreadful Consumer Reports verdicts, and none of the built-in loyalty that helps to spur demand for segment leaders such as the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, FCA’s decision to kill off the automaker’s lone remaining midsize car stifled demand.

Third-quarter sales in 2016 were 44-percent lower than second-quarter volume. Fourth-quarter sales slid 35 percent from third-quarter levels.

Expect a further slowdown despite the high degree of excess supply...."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/01/want-new-chrysler-200-dead-theres-surely-no-shortage-supply/#more-1498289

sda

benjaminh said:

Similar video showing the building of the 2017 Honda Accord at the Marysville, Ohio plant. My family has purchased 4 Accords made at Marysville—a 2002, a 2008, a 2013, and a 2016, all of which have been very good cars for us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oyJcY6D9n4

I enjoyed both films and find a certain amazement of the interaction between humans and robotics as the assembly takes place. I have taken a tour of the BMW plant in Spartanburg, SC, which is about an hour and a half way, a couple of times and am fascinated and impressed by it all.

ab348

benjaminh said:

11-minute video showing Honda Associates building the 2017 Civic at Honda's factory in Indiana. Interesting stuff imho

Watching the robot painters was fun. Found it interesting at the beginning that they haven't been able to use robots to load the frame rails and crossmembers onto the welding jig.

The rear end looks better in its unfinished state than after the taillights and trim is installed.

stickguy

I assume the extra 200s will eventually just become a great buy for the rental companies.

andres3

benjaminh said:

Midsize Chrysler 200 dead, but supplies linger, says an article in The Truth About Cars:

"Want A New Chrysler 200? It’s Dead, But There’s Surely No Shortage of Supply
By Timothy Cain on January 26, 2017

....The 200’s already tarnished name, indelibly linked to its Sebring predecessor, was certainly not helped when FCA boss Sergio Marchionne threw his own employees under the bus, calling those responsible for its design “dummies.” Meanwhile, workers responsible for building the 200 in Sterling Heights were tasked with maintaining morale for nearly a year after their boss had harshly criticized the product.

Combined with an easy-to-criticize nine-speed transmission, a reputation for poor reliability, dreadful Consumer Reports verdicts, and none of the built-in loyalty that helps to spur demand for segment leaders such as the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, FCA’s decision to kill off the automaker’s lone remaining midsize car stifled demand.

Third-quarter sales in 2016 were 44-percent lower than second-quarter volume. Fourth-quarter sales slid 35 percent from third-quarter levels.

Expect a further slowdown despite the high degree of excess supply...."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/01/want-new-chrysler-200-dead-theres-surely-no-shortage-supply/#more-1498289

But it's an IMPORTED from Detroit car! LOL.

Guess maybe there aren't as many suckers left as they thought.

Mr_Shiftright

"Combined with an easy-to-criticize nine-speed transmission, a reputation for poor reliability, dreadful Consumer Reports verdicts......."

Okay, okay, but aside from that..................

andres3

If Chrysler workers have morale then something is wrong with them! They must be on some kind of prescribed "Happy" pill. Or maybe they are just happy to have a job that still pays when they should have been allowed to fail 37 years ago or so.

ab348

andres3 said:

If Chrysler workers have morale then something is wrong with them! They must be on some kind of prescribed "Happy" pill.

Chrysler assembly line workers have been known to require various substances to get through the work day but not all of them are prescribed.

http://jalopnik.com/5753895/chrysler-workers-still-importing-drugs-to-detroit-plant

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

Taking my Legacy to the dealer later this afternoon. It has developed a whining noise coming from the right rear suspension. The faster I go, the louder it gets.

So, don't go fast!

I had a chance to ride in a Honda Accord Touring yesterday, while visiting a vendor. Only a 10 minute ride, but was pretty impressed by how quiet it was.

Ergonomically, it was .... well ... a Honda. The only thing I didn't much care for was the gauge design. That's a personal issue, of course.

sda

I agree that the interior of the Accord is a somewhat plain, it is easy to live with. Quality of materials seems to be decent. No rattles or squeaks. The interior of my 3 year old Accord with 64k still looks new. Actually the entire car is holding up nicely, no complaints.

sda

I certainly can't complain about the gas mileage. This is my typical mpg just running around suburbia. We are having a beautiful spring like day, the car got washed. Still looks nice.

ab348

stickguy said:

I assume the extra 200s will eventually just become a great buy for the rental companies.

Could well become the new Mitsubishi Galant for Thrifty Rent A Car.

Michaell

sda said:

I certainly can't complain about the gas mileage. This is my typical mpg just running around suburbia. We are having a beautiful spring like day, the car got washed. Still looks nice.

Sharp looking car.

berri

Already see plenty of Chrysler 200's on rental lots. Some Hertz locations actually show it as a full sized car on their website.

berri

I like those golds because like silver, they don't show dirt much.

nyccarguy

My Legacy will be getting a new right rear bearing installed. Covered under the factory power train warranty.

backy

What does everyone think of the new Camry? Just read a story about it in MT. I'm not sure what substance the designers of the front end were on when they did their work, but IMO it ruins an otherwise sharp exterior design. Supposedly the new car handles better than the old one, and the new engines are supposed to get 20% better FE than before, which would put the Camry near or at best-in-class there. But my main question is... will anyone care? OK, that's overstated, but in a country where SUVs and compacts rule, a redesigned Camry won't have the same impact as it might have had a few years ago. However, it will probably be enough to keep Camry at the top of the mid-sized sedan sales charts, given Toyota's brand loyalty and the age of some of the other players.

By coincidence, in the same MT issue there's a review of the new CR-V, which the editors gushed over. With excellent small SUVs like that at about the same price as a mid-sized sedan, plus roomy compacts available for thousands less than mid-sizers, I predict continued huge discounts on mid-sized sedans in order to keep the factories busy.

And on that note, a few weeks ago I saw a Kia Niro (new compact hybrid crossover) at my dealer when I took my Forte5 in for an oil change. I was extremely impressed by the design, from tidy exterior to tasteful interior with tons of room, and of course the FE which is supposed to be 50 mpg average per the EPA. And starting list price around $24k. Given the choice of a mid-sized sedan or the Niro, I'd take the Niro in about a half second. Here's a recent review:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/01/27/review-kia-niro-lights-fire-looks-performance/97067414/

berri

I think the new CRV just upped the small crossover market and Toyota better put some money into the RAV-4. As for the '18 Camry, I like the pictures, but will have to see the actual car. My only concern is that it is suppose to be overall lower than its predecessor. That will help it's looks I think, but not its ergonomics necessarily. As the dollar strengthens, gasoline will probably make a jump in price. Also affordability is getting to be an issue for crossovers. I guess we'll have to see how all of that unfolds over the next several years.

stickguy

I saw all 3 yesterday at the car show! The Niro was a real nice, tidy package. would have to see how it drives though. I also liked the Hyundai Ioniq (same platform as the Niro I believe), Definitely going to drive that one later in the year.

The Camry, was on a turntable. Still has a love/hate Toyota front end but overall looked better to me. And the rest of the design was sharp. big improvement, and the road tests did sound positive.

The CRV was really, really nice. If I needed a new family truckster now, it would be high on the list.

benjaminh

The front end is a bit odd, but otherwise the 2018 Camry looks like it's going to be quite impressive.

Honda is going to be coming out with an all-new 2018 Accord at almost the same time (c. 6-8 months from now), and so I think it will be an quite showdown between those two.

stickguy

hopefully both great cars, and they battle hard. In case I want to get one or the other, should lead to great deals!

andres3

Kia Optima in full freeway mode managed to average 34.4 MPG over about 1/3 of a tank used today.

benjaminh

Top compact/midsize sedan sales for January, with comparison with previous January:

Civic 23,095 -13.6%

Camry 20,313 -24.3%

Corolla 20,107 -10.1%

Cruz 19,949 +38.9%

Accord 19,536 -5.9%

Altima 18,931 -14.6

Fusion 15,515 -21.9%

Sentra 13,444 -16.7%

stickguy

that is some serious dropage overall. Though the new Cruz seems to be a much bigger hit.

benjaminh

Top midsize SUVs sales in January, with comparison with previous January

CR-V 29,287 +52.5%

Rogue 28,760 +45.5%

RAV4 22,155 +2.8%

Escape 20,588 +7.1%

stickguy

well, at least we know where all the sedan sales went to!

the new CRV is going to be a huge seller. Book it. Not sure how many they can make, but they are going to sell them all.

sda

benjaminh said:

Top compact/midsize sedan sales for January:

Civic 23,095 -13.6%

Camry 20,313 -24.3%

Corolla 20,107 -10.1%

Cruz 19,949 +38.9%

Accord 19,536 -5.9%

Altima 18,931 -14.6

Fusion 15,515 -21.9%

Sentra 13,444 -16.7%

Thanks, as always, for keeping us informed! Interesting the overall decline and that the Civic outsold the Camry by a significant number.

benjaminh

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/02/january-2017-usa-best-selling-cars-sales-figures.html

Honda Civic 23,095 26,741 -13.6%

Toyota Corolla 21,567 23,612 -8.7%

Toyota Camry 20,313 26,848 -24.3%

Chevrolet Cruze 19,949 14,362 38.9%

Honda Accord 19,536 20,765 -5.9%

Nissan Altima 18,931 22,156 -14.6%

Ford Fusion 15,515 19,877 -21.9%

Nissan Sentra 13,444 16,144 -16.7%

Hyundai Elantra 13,185 9885 33.4%

Ford Focus 9577 12,977 -26.2%

Nissan Versa 8870 8006 10.8%

Chevrolet Malibu 8377 14,746 -43.2%

Hyundai Sonata 7894 15,209 -48.1%

Kia Optima 7849 8413 -6.7%

Kia Soul 7792 9191 -15.2%

Subaru Impreza 7247 6718 7.9%

Dodge Charger 7153 8782 -18.5%

Hyundai Accent 7062 5050 39.8%

Volkswagen Jetta 6846 8177 -16.3%

Mazda 3 6623 7551 -12.3%

benjaminh

The 48% decline in the Sonata is shocking. The 43% decline in the Malibu is also rather steep.

ab348

benjaminh said:

The 48% decline in the Sonata is shocking. The 43% decline in the Malibu is also rather steep.

Hyundai is all about pumping out the volume at any cost. They already fired their USA CEO, now I'd expect huge incentives to follow.

imidazol97

benjaminh said:

The 48% decline in the Sonata is shocking. The 43% decline in the Malibu is also rather steep.

I'm surprised at the Malibu's drop from last January. Was January of last year a really good
sales month for Malibu and Sonata too. Sometimes, data is like mutual funds results, and
the data has to be compared over a longer period to see the true trends.

What were the sales January 2015?
And how were the sales leveled over several months?
I don't have that kind of data. Maybe there weren't
incentives on the hoods from GM/Hyundai for
that month?

sda

I was doing what I do best, browsing car lots the other day. I stopped by a local CarMax. They had a good crowd looking, and it wasn't at sedans or coupes. Everyone was looking at CUVs and SUVs. Stopped by a Honda dealer that was on that side of town, not one where I've done business and a salesman approaches me. I ask him if I could look at a CR-V EX, that one appeals to me. He said the only two they had in stock was an LX and a Touring and then just walked away. I couldn't believe he didn't ask if I wanted to look at either of those. Such arrogance I didn't expect! I did browse the Accords as well as I a midsize car fits me perfectly.

benjaminh

sda said:

I was doing what I do best, browsing car lots the other day. I stopped by a local CarMax. They had a good crowd looking, and it wasn't at sedans or coupes. Everyone was looking at CUVs and SUVs. Stopped by a Honda dealer that was on that side of town, not one where I've done business and a salesman approaches me. I ask him if I could look at a CR-V EX, that one appeals to me. He said the only two they had in stock was an LX and a Touring and then just walked away. I couldn't believe he didn't ask if I wanted to look at either of those. Such arrogance I didn't expect! I did browse the Accords as well as I a midsize car fits me perfectly.

Bizarre reaction from that salesperson....

???

explorerx4

Fusion sales went to F Series

berri

I wonder if the Fusion and Hyundai Sonata greenhouse is starting get stale with buyers?

sda

I like the styling of the VW CC, Fusion, MKZ, Sonata, etc. The good visibility out of the Accord has spoiled me.

stickguy

SDA, I know what you mean. I don't like cars that you can't see out of either. especially backing up.