Midsize Sedans 2.0

Michaell

explorerx4 said:

@Michaell,
For some reason, I need to have an extra car around.
I think it goes back to the 70's gas crisis when you could only get fuel every other day.
Back then, I had a 75 mile per day round trip commute.
It did help me get through the worst of the very high prices we had in '08.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I was a kid when we had the gas crises. I remember my folks being able to get gas based on the last digit of their plate number

stickguy

odd and even days. The memories.

Michaell

stickguy said:

odd and even days. The memories.

Exactly. Though we had the '73 Corona as the family car. Dad has his '70 pickup, but it didn't get driven all that much.

Mr_Shiftright

Every time we heard a siren back then my dad used to say "That's the ambulance going to the Cadillac dealer"

He had an odd sense of humor.

berri

I dunno - I think it sounds kind of funny

akirby

Commute? What is a commute? Wife and I both work from home (her full time, I go in the office once or twice per month).

explorerx4

Nice new feature in the Fusion. Return to Park.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/ford-rotary-shifter-helps-prevent-103618212.html

akirby

Lincolns with the push button shifter shift into park automatically as soon as you hit the stop button to turn off the engine. So convenient and safe.

explorerx4

Got a nice compliment on my Fusion form one of my BIL's who drives a 5 series BMW. After riding in the back seat for an hour with 2 other people, he said the car rode very comfortably and smooth.

backy

I returned on New Year's Eve from a 3500 mile holiday trip with my family. I rented a 2016 Sonata SE (base model) from Hertz as I got a great deal on it. I was hoping to get the Sonata because I thought it would have a good combination of interior room, trunk space, smooth ride, and fuel economy--and I was right!

The car performed admirably during our 10-day trip, hauling up to 5 adults with a trunk full of luggage and gifts over a mix of roads that were in poor to excellent shape. Speeds were generally between 65-75+ on highways, with a lot of in-town driving. We needed the AC on about half the time as temps got into the low 80s some days in Texas, then dropped to the 40s and into the 20s before we got back home. We weren't lucky on headwinds, they seemed to follow us, but we did have one jaunt from Oklahoma City to Wichita with a stiff tailwind and temps in the 50s and got 45.5 mpg on that leg. Overall we got 35.2 mpg (measured by actual gallons used) on the trip, which I was very happy with given how loaded the car was, our over-75 mph speeds on much of the trip (usually with a headwind), and the in-town driving we did.

Other likes about the car: The driving position was very comfortable, even with the base SE and up to 9 hours behind the wheel per day. The cruise control stuck to the set speed very well, even up hills. The fuel gauge, mpg meter, and miles-to-empty were very accurate. The high beams really lit up the road in rural areas, where we did a lot of driving. The Sonata had a generally quiet and smooth ride, except on roads with worn surfaces, and then there was a loud hum. It handled well for a large car, allowing me to spare a cat that was strolling down the middle of my driving lane late one night on a dark road. The car has plenty of power, the few times I needed it, and at cruise the engine purrs along at just over 2000 rpm at 75 mph. The audio system was good for a base car, and we appreciated having a CD player (many new cars don't have that any more) and XM radio (for music and football games). And my long-legged boys (both over 6') appreciated the copious leg room in the back seat.

I talked with a friend yesterday whose wife will need to get a new car soon as they're giving back her Passat TDI to VW. I recommended that they look at the Sonata, if they want a car about the same size as the Passat. The other great thing about cars like the Sonata these days is, they're a steal due to mid-sized cars not selling well in general. But for road trips like the one I took, they're good options. A minivan would have provided more comfortable seating in back, perhaps, and more sheer cargo room, but it wouldn't have delivered over 35 mpg.

Michaell

Thanks for the write up!

How can head winds follow you? Wouldn't they be tail winds?

I considered a Sonata when my Elantra lease ended this past summer. Ended up with a Jetta, just because I wanted a different brand. Still, these are nice cars with a lot of features on them.

nyccarguy

@backy - nice write up!

stickguy

I don't think I get quite that good mileage in that type of driving. And I don't drive that fast! Around town, in real short hop stuff, mileage is no where near that good.

akirby

Short trips and stop and go traffic will absolutely kill mpg on any vehicle.

Michaell

akirby said:

Short trips and stop and go traffic will absolutely kill mpg on any vehicle.

Agreed. I struggled to get 27MPG on my 2013 Elantra GT, which I used for pizza delivery.

imidazol97

Uphill and downhill driving also lowers mileage. If I drive level highways I do much better than driving I75 through Kentucky with the large hills. Despite the downhill portions regaining the potential energy and saving fuel, the uphill portions use proportionately more fuel.

akirby

That's because most people accelerate briskly to maintain speed while going uphill which uses proportionately more fuel than you save going downhill on the other side. You can do a lot better if you let your speed drop a little going uphill, but the people behind you won't like it.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

I don't think I get quite that good mileage in that type of driving. And I don't drive that fast! Around town, in real short hop stuff, mileage is no where near that good.

Maybe if I was towing my Legacy with my Dad's Tahoe, then the Legacy would get great mileage like @backy did with the Sonata.

suydam

We rented a base Sonata a few years ago. I don't recall spectacular mpg but it was typical for a midsizer.

andres3

akirby said:

That's because most people accelerate briskly to maintain speed while going uphill which uses proportionately more fuel than you save going downhill on the other side. You can do a lot better if you let your speed drop a little going uphill, but the people behind you won't like it.

Not only will people not like it, they will get mad at you for failing to remember to hit the gas going uphill. Especially if you didn't move right to slow down.

Just read about a road rage incident in which someone that was taking too long at a stop sign honked back at the honker, and got shot at.

akirby

I have to admit, I would be one of the unhappy people. I hate it when people drive under the speed limit. But I wouldn't shoot at you.

andres3

akirby said:

I have to admit, I would be one of the unhappy people. I hate it when people drive under the speed limit. But I wouldn't shoot at you.

Well, I wouldn't shoot either, because you can kill someone doing that, and it does happen unfortunately.

However, it's not just people going under the speed limit, it causes a chain reaction of congestion that leads to ever slower cars behind them. Happens pretty much every day on the 52 W grade near Santee heading towards I15 in San Diego.

berri

When you are in places like SoCal or Chicago, all you really can do is go with the flow. Otherwise you are in for a white knuckle terror ride.

andres3

berri said:

When you are in places like SoCal or Chicago, all you really can do is go with the flow. Otherwise you are in for a white knuckle terror ride.

I heard Texas has an interesting driving body. Also, since everyone in Texas is packing heat, road rage stories ending in flying bullets seem to originate from that State more often.

Mr_Shiftright

andres3 said:

akirby said:

I have to admit, I would be one of the unhappy people. I hate it when people drive under the speed limit. But I wouldn't shoot at you.

Well, I wouldn't shoot either, because you can kill someone doing that, and it does happen unfortunately.

However, it's not just people going under the speed limit, it causes a chain reaction of congestion that leads to ever slower cars behind them. Happens pretty much every day on the 52 W grade near Santee heading towards I15 in San Diego.

Yep, the old "accordion effect". Maddening.

brian125

2017 Kia Optima are starting to flow into dealerships . The top SXL model has a $5000 lease cash incentive.
2k to 3k on leased 2yr / 3 yr. $1500 cash incentive on all financed models. Not sure if I like the front lower bumper design. Looks similar to the Camry bumper.

brian125

Andres3 / berri

You wanna see white knuckle Traffic jams come to NYC. Getting in and out of Manhattan, or trying to drive thru Brooklyn on The BQE to Staten Island at rush hour takes 2 hours. That's only 25 miles. Then rolling over missile bombed pot holes is not fun..... $16 bucks to go over the VZ bridge, $6.50 each way to go thru the Brooklyn battery tunnel. Ofcoarse there's always a accident at rush hour , one lane closed, one level on the VZ bridge closed making matters worse. Thank God I'm retired and don't have to commute like all these poor bastards everyday. Hate to see NY become Gun carrying friendly especially at rush hour.

Our Traffic and Roads Makes SoCal / Chicago look like a walk in the park.

backy

Michaell said:

Thanks for the write up!

How can head winds follow you? Wouldn't they be tail winds?

I considered a Sonata when my Elantra lease ended this past summer. Ended up with a Jetta, just because I wanted a different brand. Still, these are nice cars with a lot of features on them.

I meant that the winds changed direction during our trip, so no matter what direction we drove we almost always wound up with headwinds, except on a couple of stretches (and the FE was markedly better on those stretches).

backy

akirby said:

Short trips and stop and go traffic will absolutely kill mpg on any vehicle.

That, and cold weather. For example, I got a 2016 Forte5 last March and didn't face any cold weather with it until recent weeks. I was averaging 36-38 mpg in mixed driving (mainly urban freeway, vs. EPA 33 hwy) until the cold weather hit (by cold I mean below zero F), now I'm doing well to average low 30s, and current tank is just over 30 mpg right now.

backy

suydam said:

We rented a base Sonata a few years ago. I don't recall spectacular mpg but it was typical for a midsizer.

The 2016+ Sonata is rated 36 mpg highway with the 2.4L engine, a bit better than the previous generation. However, we drove my wife's 2013 Sonata 2.4L on a similar trip two years ago and it too returned 35 mpg overall, but we had less weight (~200 lbs less) and I think we had a tailwind on a lot of the trip.

berri

Backy, you're in the Midwest where winds just add to the challenge and fun!

nyccarguy

brian125 said:

Andres3 / berri

You wanna see white knuckle Traffic jams come to NYC. Getting in and out of Manhattan, or trying to drive thru Brooklyn on The BQE to Staten Island at rush hour takes 2 hours. That's only 25 miles. Then rolling over missile bombed pot holes is not fun..... $16 bucks to go over the VZ bridge, $6.50 each way to go thru the Brooklyn battery tunnel. Ofcoarse there's always a accident at rush hour , one lane closed, one level on the VZ bridge closed making matters worse. Thank God I'm retired and don't have to commute like all these poor bastards everyday. Hate to see NY become Gun carrying friendly especially at rush hour.

Our Traffic and Roads Makes SoCal / Chicago look like a walk in the park.

California & Washington DC Metro area make us look like amateurs @brian125.

akirby

Atlanta is just as bad.

stickguy

NYC ups the ante by having truly decrepit roads too. Not just bad designs and too much traffic. Plus they win the worst tolls catagory too.

brian125

stickguy said:

NYC ups the ante by having truly decrepit roads too. Not just bad designs and too much traffic. Plus they win the worst tolls catagory too.

Stick........... sad but true . Fortune mag showed a survey done out of University of Michigan College in 2015 and NYC was rated #1 for worse commute . Here is another survey done in 2016. See where your state or city is rated with worse commuter times .

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-50-worst-commutes-in-america/ss-AAakiJv

benjaminh

midsize/large sales for December:

Accord 33,873

Camry 33,412

Altima 24,763

Malibu 22,764

Fusion 19,132

Sonata 13,802

Optima 12,572

Passat 7,241

Legacy 5,960

Mazda6 3,688

200 2,643

benjaminh

Compact/midsize sales for December:

Civic 31,482

Corolla 31,209

Elantra 19,556

Cruze 17,324

Sentra 17,037

Jetta 13,079

Focus 10,242

Mazda3 8,102

Forte 7,560

Impreza 5,126

Dart 1,525

Lancer 860

benjaminh

Having now owned my 2016 Accord for more than 6 months, I really like it so far. Got 41 mpg on a recent 70 mile highway trip (no ac, c. 65-75 mph), which is about 10 mpg higher than I would have gotten in my 2008 Accord for the same trip.

My favorite new features: 1st remote start. Since my wife gets our one-car garage, I love being able to defrost the car when I'm warm inside and sipping my coffee. It automatically warms the car up to 72 and defrosts the front and rear, and then shuts itself off after 10 minutes. 2nd AndroidAuto. Works well. Better navigation than previous built-in systems by Honda. 3rd Better handling than my 2008 Accord, with less wallow and less tire squeal when going around tight corners with a bit of pep. 4th More power and faster acceleration than my 08.

Once in a while, I miss shifting a manual, which I had on my 08, but much less than I thought I would. Mainly I'm just enjoying the higher mpg, the quieter ride, and the new features.

benjaminh

Revolutionary all-new Camry due for 2018. The Camry has been the bestselling car in America for at least the past 15 years, although it's been slipping a little lately. But Toyota has clearly put a massive amount of engineering and styling effort into the next all-new Camry, which is due out late this summer.

Believe it or not, it looks like they've made the 2018 Camry fun to drive, according to Motor Trend:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/camry/2018/2018-toyota-camry-prototype-drive-review/

"Shedding speed approaching the first real corner feels automatic. And arcing into the curve, the seat’s lateral bolsters quickly cup my ribcage. Exiting the bend, the upshifts are not only finger snaps but are the subtle, cool jazz ones where your fingers barely brush each other. The car feels vastly more sophisticated. But if there’s one thing that most symbolizes its transformation from seven tedious generations of Tofu Camry driving dynamics, it’s the brake pedal’s crispness....Through a double lane change, the previous Camry and Accord lolled with noticeable roll and weight transfer; this car deftly snakes right through it. Right, straight, left. Bam, bam, bam. The steering responds with sensible loads. Its balance and coordination are so improved it feels like an Audi sensibility might have snuck into the Toyota R & D center."

And check out the pix. Imho it's maybe a bit overwrought in the rear with the melting taillights, but overall I think the 2018 Camry actually looks better than any other midsize sedan out there, including, gulp, my 2016 Accord.

Toyota is also promising class-leading mpg from new engines and a new 8-speed transmission.

I've looked down on the Camry for so long, even though it's built in my home state of Kentucky, that this is a bit of a shock.

Honda and the other midsize cars have a battle on their hands. Honda esp. prided itself on being the sporty and fun-to-drive midsize car, thus winning Car and Driver's 10 best for 30 years in a row, or however long it's been, but now I think Toyota is trying to take that away. They just might with this 2018 Camry!

nyccarguy

benjaminh said:

Having now owned my 2016 Accord for more than 6 months, I really like it so far. Got 41 mpg on a recent 70 mile highway trip (no ac, c. 65-75 mph), which is about 10 mpg higher than I would have gotten in my 2008 Accord for the same trip.

My favorite new features: 1st remote start. Since my wife gets our one-car garage, I love being able to defrost the car when I'm warm inside and sipping my coffee. It automatically warms the car up to 72 and defrosts the front and rear, and then shuts itself off after 10 minutes. 2nd AndroidAuto. Works well. Better navigation than previous built-in systems by Honda. 3rd Better handling than my 2008 Accord, with less wallow and less tire squeal when going around tight corners with a bit of pep. 4th More power and faster acceleration than my 08.

Once in a while, I miss shifting a manual, which I had on my 08, but much less than I thought I would. Mainly I'm just enjoying the higher mpg, the quieter ride, and the new features.

I had a remote start installed in my Legacy last spring. It's great! I use it almost every day the temperature falls under 45 degrees here. Yesterday AM it was 5 degrees when I left at 6:30.

sda

I had remote start in the past and found it useful. Luckily I park in the garage so that wasn't an issue. What I found handy is when the car would be parked outside in the heat while I was doing errands and being able to get a head start on cooling the car down before I got in.

2018 Camry looks interesting and I am hopeful that the ride and handling are much improved. It will be interesting to see what Honda does with the new 2018 Accord. Could be real competition (other than how many sold) between the two. Camry keeps a V6 offering, will Honda?

benjaminh

Interesting that Toyota is promising "class-leading mpg" with its new Camry with the standard engine and transmission—because right now the Camry lags behind.

Here are the combined mpg rankings for 2017 for midsize sedans with the base engine and auto trans. Remember that for 2017 the EPA is trying to make the window sticker mpg match the real world a bit more closely, and so most midsize cars have lost 1-3 mpg on their window sticker compared to 2016.

Altima: 31
Accord: 30
Malibu: 30
Mazda6: 29
Sonata: 29
Camry: 27
Passat: 27
Fusion: 25

As you can see, the current Camry is almost last for mpg. The Fusion with the optional 1.5turbo is rated 27 mpg combined, but I'm trying to compare the "base" or standard engine. Likewise the Sonata with the 1.6 turbo is rated 31, but it costs extra to get that.

Anyway, for the 2018 Camry to go from 27 to "class leading" seems to mean that it's going to be rated at least 32 mpg, which is a big improvement.

But meanwhile an all-new Accord is also due for 2018, and it will also have all-new body architecture, probably Honda's new 1.5 turbo, etc. Since the current Accord is rated 30, I assume that they are planning for a c. 10% improvement for the new car, which would also put it at 32 or 33. The 2017 Civic 4-door 1.5T is rated 36 combined.

An equally important question is acceleration, torque, and power. Will the Camry's naturally-aspirated 2.5 be able to equal the 1.5 turbo expected on the new Accord? Time will tell.

I think there's at least a chance that the new 2018 Camry might dethrone the Accord from Car and Driver's Top Ten list. I hope not, but it seems possible....

sda

30 mpg is spot on for what I am experiencing. Since I no longer have my long commute where my avg was around 35 mpg, my driving is more suburban. I rarely see an overall average below 29. On longer trips I easily average 36-37, and have seen 40+ mpg multiple times. Most recently got 41.7 on a 90 mile trip.

nyccarguy

@benjaminh - do you have the 2016 mid sized sedan totals yet?

benjaminh

nyccarguy said:

@benjaminh - do you have the 2016 mid sized sedan totals yet?

Yes, thanks to tsx at vtec.net. Camry is, as always, first, but a lot of those are rental cars. I think the Accord might still be first with retail buyers....

Anyway, calendar year 2016 sales for midsize cars:

Camry 388,618 -9.2%

Accord 345,225 -2.6%;

Altima 307,380 -7.8%

Fusion 265,840 -11.4%

Malibu 227,881 +16.9%

Sonata 199,416

Optima 124,203

Passat 73,002 -6.7%

Legacy 65,306 +8%

200 57,294 -66%

Mazda6 45,520 -21.4%

benjaminh

Compact/midsize calendar year sales for 2016:

Corolla 378,210 +3%

Civic 366,927 +9.8%

Sentra 214,709 +5.5%

Elantra 208,319

Cruze 188,876 -16.6%

Focus 168,789 -16.6%

Jetta 121,102 -5.7%

Forte 103,292

Mazda3 95,567 -11.4%

Impreza 55,238 -17.3%

Dart 43,402 -51%

Lancer 14,304

benjaminh

Mazda's continuing sales slump is a surprise to me. And it seems too bad, since I've really liked the Mazdas I've owned.

But with the Camry becoming more performance oriented, that will potentially hurt Mazda more in the future. Although really the Mazda6, as good as it is, is already suffering from weak sales.

sda

Sad to see the Mazda6 sales drop 21%, they are very nice cars.

benjaminh

As we know, many are trading in their midsize sedans for midsize SUVs. For the first time ever, the annual sales of the Honda CR-V were higher than the Accord. The Civic also passed the Accord in sales for the first time in 30+ years. And Honda was capacity-constrained on sales of the CR-V. Honda is now expanding production of the CR-V, and so they might be able to make and sell c. 400k of them in 2017. Nissan is also increasing production of the Rogue, as is Toyota with the RAV4. It's going to be a real sales battle between those three.

2016 sales of the top compact SUVs:

CR-V 357,335 +3.7%

Rav4 352,154 +12%

Rogue 329,904 +14.9%

Escape 307,069 +.2%

Equinox 242,195 -12.8%

Cherokee 199,736 -10%

Forester 178,593 +1.9%

Patriot 121,926 +1%

CX-5 112,235 +.7%

Journey 106,759 -1%

Compass 94,061 +32%

nyccarguy

sda said:

Sad to see the Mazda6 sales drop 21%, they are very nice cars.

I agree with you @sda. Mazda needs to do something to stand out in this ultra competitive segment. They know how to do exterior styling, driving dynamics, & interior appointments very nicely. To get my very hard earned dollars, they've got to offer some sort of upgraded powertrain (turbo 4) & AWD.