Midsize Sedans 2.0

ab348

I've known two people who have owned VW CCs and they both hated living with them. Visibility was poor and space utilization was another major gripe. Both dumped them fairly early on. An example of style over substance.

sda

I have had my Accord for over 3 years (9/13) and 64k. There are a couple of features and good design elements that I continue to appreciate. Simple audio and climate controls. A good back up camera with a usable display. Lane watch is handy. In addition to its intended use I have found it handy in using it while I wait for my daughter to exit her late school activities. I park ahead of the exit where she comes out and can watch for her to exit and approach the car.

berri

Mechanically, I think it is hard to beat a Honda or Toyota 4 banger for consistent reliability as well.

benjaminh

Comparing the 2017 Accord with the 2017 CR-V, I can begin to see why some people are picking the CR-V.

The msrp on the base 2017 Accord LX CVT is $23,255.
The msrp on the base 2017 CR-V LX FWD is $24,045.

That's theoretically a difference of only about $800. In terms of real world prices, however, I think some people are getting c. $4000 off of msrp for a new Accord (I did when I bought my 2016 Accord), while most people these days are probably paying close to list for the all-new CR-V. And so the "real world" price difference might be as much as $5k.

But setting that aside for a minute, you get as Mr. Shiftright pointed out a while ago some of the advantages of the station wagons from the old days by getting a midsize SUV.

The Accord has a nice sized trunk, with 15.8 cubic feet of room.
But the CR-V, even with the back seats up, has 39.2 cubic feet of space.
And with the back seats down, the CR-V has a huge 75.8 feet of space.

It used to be that getting an SUV would cost you a lot at the gas pump, but check out these ratings....

2017 Accord LX: 30 epa mpg combined
2017 CR-V LX FWD: 28 combined

That's pretty close, and in fact it would only cost you c. $100 a year more in gas to drive a CR-V.

Concerned about global warming? Want all the latest tech?

Well, step up to the EX model of CR-V and you get the new 1.5 Honda turbo, which gives you more power, faster acceleration, and an EPA rating of 30 mpg—exactly the same as the Accord.

And here's where the pricing gets really interesting....

2017 CR-V EX with HondaSensing msrp $26,695
2017 Accord EX w/HondaSensing msrp $27,630

At the EX level for vehicles with similar equipment the Accord lists for about a thousand more. Real world, of course, the Accord is still going to cost less, but they are getting closer. Plus getting the 2017 CR-V gets you the next generation of Sensing, which the Accord doesn't get until 2018. I'm mixed on the whole sensing stuff, but one thing the new generation has is Adaptive Cruise Control with low speed follow—which is a feature that just year or so ago was found only on cars like Lexus, Caddy, etc. that cost 2-3 times as much as the CR-V.

sda

To me the EX trim of both the Accord and CR-V is the sweet spot and best value. My only real nit is the EX doesn't have a leather wrapped steering wheel. I would think the cost difference will equalize and perhaps reverse somewhat when the '18 Accord comes out. However with midsize sedans falling out of favor, who knows?

berri

I've looked at the new CRV, but haven driven it. From initial appearances though, I wonder if it may make some question the extra 10 grand or so for a Pilot or Highlander. I guess time will tell.

stickguy

I wouldn't be getting a pilot instead. No need for the 3rd row, and the CRV has more cargo room than my RDX (which is a bit tight sometimes). Assuming it has roof rails so I can use my racksack bag, really no reason to go bigger!

benjaminh

The 2017 CR-V has grown slightly compared to the 2016 CR-V.

2017 CRV
length: 180.6
width: 73
height: 66.1
max cargo: 75.8

2016 CRV
length: 179.4
width: 71.6
height: 64.7
max cargo: 70.9

2017 Pilot
length: 194.5
width: 78.6
height: 69.8
max cargo: 83.9

sda

The Pilot is a real fatty, I mean wide. Our '10 Pilot I believe is a pinch shorter and narrower and is a slight challenge to guide thru the single wide garage door without whacking one of the side mirrors. Thankfully they are hinged, and sadly have some slight battle scars from driver error.

stickguy

I barely squeeze the RDX in the garage as it is. I want something skinnier, not fatter, next time!

benjaminh

stickguy said:

I barely squeeze the RDX in the garage as it is. I want something skinnier, not fatter, next time!

The current RDX is 73.7 inches wide, and so at 73 flat the new CR-V is very slightly skinnier.

The 2017 CR-V will save about $700 a year in gas compared to an RDX.

benjaminh

As you can see, as the Accord's annual sales have drifted downward the CR-Vs have climbed

Accord sales in the US
2014: 388,374
2015: 355,557
2016: 345,225

CR-V sales in the US
2014: 335,019
2015: 345,647
2016: 357,335

And in 2017 that gap will almost certainly widen, because Honda has increased its capacity to build CRVs, and might be able to make c. 400,000 of them this year, while sales of the Accord along with other midsize cars continues to drift downward.

In January 2017, for instance, Honda sold only 19,536 Accords, but sold 29,287 CRVs.

stickguy

I could replace the RDX with a CRV now. From the reports, it drives nicely, and is not much slower (I can live with 0-60 of 7.5 instead of 6.1 at this point). And the higher end CRV has a lot more goodies on it, and tech that is light years ahead. Pretty sure would not give up anything other than the V6 and the Acura badge. And gain features, tech, cargo capacity, MPG, etc.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

I could replace the RDX with a CRV now. From the reports, it drives nicely, and is not much slower (I can live with 0-60 of 7.5 instead of 6.1 at this point). And the higher end CRV has a lot more goodies on it, and tech that is light years ahead. Pretty sure would not give up anything other than the V6 and the Acura badge. And gain features, tech, cargo capacity, MPG, etc.

Seems reasonable. And would the insurance costs be a little lower too? What's the year of your RDX? Any idea of the trade-in value?

stickguy

2013. Might be slightly cheaper but I doubt it changes much if at all. Have not asked for trade in value. At the earliest a move would be at the end of the year when my Sonata lease is up. Once that happens, one option to consider is upgrading the family truckster (RDX) to something new for the wife, and I will just get a cheaper spare car for 2nd car/around town duty.

benjaminh

This 5-minute video review of the 2017 CR-V even makes me want one lol! But I'm planning on sticking with my 2016 Accord for at least the next 6 years....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8U0-NUZO4M

ab348

I'm not a CUV/SUV guy but that Honda appeals to me. Certainly it would retain its resale value well. The problem is that you would see yourself coming and going everywhere. I wonder too why they are releasing it as a 2017 model so late in the year?

sda

I have to admit that is one of the few things I dislike about having an Accord and Pilot, you do see yourself coming and going everywhere. Hondas are very popular in the Charlotte area.

iluvmysephia1

A workmate just bought a new Honda Accord and raves about it. We're so busy at work and we're night shift, too, that I haven't even had a chance ta take a gander at it.

On the iluv front, Stateline Nissan of Kansas City is selling a graphite grey 2017 Nissan Versa S 5-speed for $9,999. Includes bonus cash of $1,000 from Nissan. Can't think of strong enough reasons ta trade the '11 Kia Soul base white 5-speed in on that car. I spose all I need is one REALLY GOOD REASON, huh? 

benjaminh

ab348 said:

I'm not a CUV/SUV guy but that Honda appeals to me. Certainly it would retain its resale value well. The problem is that you would see yourself coming and going everywhere. I wonder too why they are releasing it as a 2017 model so late in the year?

Like pretty much every other auto maker, Honda has sometimes had trouble over the last 10 years or so maintaining quality as vehicles get ever more complex. A few years ago, as I vaguely recall, it even may have had something to do with the early departure of Honda's last president. Anyway, at that point I think Honda tried to really make sure to triple check every bit of engineering, assembly, etc. to try to get the quality right. In getting the quality control down as much as possible, my guess is they might have had to go through a few deadlines. Just guessing here, but maybe Honda originally planned to launch the new CR-V at a more normal time for new model year, like Sept. or Oct, but then as part of QC they pushed it back to Dec.....? Just speculation. Even if so, it's possible there will still be glitches with an all-new model like this.

sda

It may be fun to be the first one on the block to have a new model. You may pay for that privilege by a higher purchase price and potential bugs associated with a new model.

stickguy

I'm more interested in how it works for me. If it happens to be common because it is good at it, I can live with that! Maybe try to get a less common color though...

berri

I think the '17 CRV seems to offer a lot for the money compared to the next step up like Highlander or Explorer

benjaminh

Toyota's upcoming 2018 Camry seems impressive from what we know so far. Previous Camrys, of which I've driven several as rental cars, suffered from sloppy handling due to overly soft suspensions, muddled and mismatched interior designs, unimpressive engines with back-of-the pack mpg, and exterior styling that took bland to a new level. The reliability, quality, and low price of the Camry has, in spite of all this, kept the car at #1 in sales for about 15 years (although I think Honda still claims that more retail buyers actually buy the Accord, since c. 20% of Camrys end up in rental fleets.)

The new 2018 Camry, in contrast, seems to fix all of these issues, with sleek styling inside and out, all new engines and transmissions that Toyota says will have more power and get best-in-class mpg, and, most surprisingly, handling that Motor Trend described, after driving a prototype, as being better than the current Accord.

But, as we know, Honda is also coming out with an all-new Accord for 2018, and we can guess that it will also have sleeker styling, Honda's new 1.5 turbo engine, higher mpg, and more features.

The CR-V actually gives us some clues about some of the little things we can expect in the 2018 Accord, including the probable elimination of Honda's LaneWatch side camera, which is not on the new CR-V. Also, we can expect the volume knob to make a return, which Honda unwisely removed in 2016. Finally, I think the Accord's criticized two screen set-up, which I actually think works ok, will be gone in 2018.

In any case, for both the 2018 Camry and 2018 Accord, even with the billions of dollars Toyota and Honda are clearly spending on them, we aren't likely to have significant price increases, because clearly the market simply will not bear that as the midsize segment continues to shrink. In, fact, I think as it's been for many years now that midsize cars will even more than before offer arguably the most bang for the buck in the whole car market.

nyccarguy

sda said:

I have to admit that is one of the few things I dislike about having an Accord and Pilot, you do see yourself coming and going everywhere. Hondas are very popular in the Charlotte area.

+1

besides the fact that our Pilot doesn't have a power liftgate, my wife's major complaint is the fact that she can literally walk out to a parking lot and see 4 or 5 Pilots in the same row.

ab348

I went and looked at Honda Canada's web site last night to get more info on the CR-V. Often, manufacturers limit choices compared to the same model in the US because of our smaller market here. For example VW only offered a black interior for years in certain cars here whereas you could get other choices in the USA.

I would want the EX-L model to get leather and a roof. The only one that is available with something other than black inside is a dark metallic blue, which is OK I guess though not my first choice. The biggest disappointment is that Honda shows a very conservative residual on a lease which makes it actually more expensive on a monthly payment basis than what I drive now. Ugh.

benjaminh

iluvmysephia1 said:

A workmate just bought a new Honda Accord and raves about it. We're so busy at work and we're night shift, too, that I haven't even had a chance ta take a gander at it.

On the iluv front, Stateline Nissan of Kansas City is selling a graphite grey 2017 Nissan Versa S 5-speed for $9,999. Includes bonus cash of $1,000 from Nissan. Can't think of strong enough reasons ta trade the '11 Kia Soul base white 5-speed in on that car. I spose all I need is one REALLY GOOD REASON, huh? 

Amazing that Nissan makes a car that's that cheap! But isn't the Soul a better car?

benjaminh

Pilots must be very popular where you live. Here in Louisville I don't see all that many. But tons of Accords, Civics, and CR-Vs.

explorerx4

One of my kids and I bucked the trend buy buying 2017 Fusions. Now we are gown to 1, although my wife moved up to an MKC.
The start/stop works pretty well. I don't drive it every day, so it takes me forever to go through a tank of gas.

iluvmysephia1

benjaminh -  the Nissan Versa is reliable and the lowest-cost car in America. Plus, I love how it looks. 109hp - I do love my Kia Soul and you can't go wrong with buying a new Kia. Honestly, it's between these two cars duking it out to see who's my next winner.

Funny but true story here...when we have our Akita Chow and our Pomeranian with us on road trips we always stay at Motel 6's. Last year, while living in Dodge City, KS, we decided to go visit a small city in Arkansas called Hot Springs. On the way home we stayed in Russellville AR, at...a Motel 6 . Took the Chow on a leash in the morning ...for one of her potty walks. There was a fight the night before.. came out of a nightclub across the street... apparently it was over a girl.

The window right by the Motel 6 office got smashed in in this scuffle between two rowdy guys who were no doubt drunk. Anyhoo, I looked over and what caught my eye? You got it! A 2015 Nissan Versa SV in that "Ford Blue" of theirs. That glimpse of the "little Versa that could" started me studying it's lines. I'm now hooked. 

Stateline Nissan, here in Kansas City, is now offering a gun metal grey 2017 Nissan Versa S for only $9,999. $1,000 of Nissan bonus cash helps bring that grey metallic baby's price down. Wouldn't need ta drive 388 miles to Denver ta pick her up, like that 2016 Scion iA in Pulse color (Scion-ese for black) last year. Word is out that if you buy the stick shift Versa's their powertrains are very reliable.

I am studying hard for an Allied Healthcare Board exam that I am taking in another week. I am thinking of using the idea of buying the Versa S as a reward for passing the test...as sort of a carrot ta get me ta study smarter...not harder!

Wife doesn't know it yet, but...well...I'll get back ta you guys on that. Sounds extremely reasonable ta me.

suydam

I love the Versa Note but when I found out you can't get Blind Spot Warning and rear cross traffic alert that knocked it off my list. Otherwise a great little hatchback.

benjaminh

That's an amazing deal on that Nissan Versa! If it works to get you past that test maybe you should go for it. If you're looking for a new car for that price I don't think anything else comes close. Keep us updated on what you decide to do. Have you taken a test drive? In terms of price per pound of car, I think that's the lowest I've seen in a long time....And Nissan imho builds good cars. I think their engineering is usually solid.

Michaell

benjaminh said:

That's an amazing deal on that Nissan Versa! If it works to get you past that test maybe you should go for it. If you're looking for a new car for that price I don't think anything else comes close. Keep us updated on what you decide to do. Have you taken a test drive? In terms of price per pound of car, I think that's the lowest I've seen in a long time....And Nissan imho builds good cars. I think their engineering is usually solid.

The S trim is pretty minimally equipped - no cruise, no USB port, no fold down rear seats, front headrests not height adjustable.

Just wanted everyone to be aware.

iluvmysephia1

The lack of a USB port is the biggest down part of the car. It has steering wheel audio controls and bluetooth and a CD player. Plus, it reads MP3. What format of MP3 player does it read ? But you're right, benjaminh - I will be so overjoyed after passing this test that I will slaphappily insist on celebrating with a new, cheap car. I'll draw a line and not cross over it. Make mean, concerning, demanding stares. Stomp my feet and insist that ...this happens.

All of the above. Letter D) All of the above. The Exam is 200 questions of which 150 count. 50 of the test questions get thrown out and don't count against our score. They're "expiramental" questions that testwriters throw in to guage how many people miss . We get 4 full hours to finish the test and it costs $450.

Michaell

iluvmysephia1 said:

The lack of a USB port is the biggest down part of the car. It has steering wheel audio controls and bluetooth and a CD player. Plus, it reads MP3. What format of MP3 player does it read ? But you're right, benjaminh - I will be so overjoyed after passing this test that I will slaphappily insist on celebrating with a new, cheap car. I'll draw a line and not cross over it. Make mean, concerning, demanding stares. Stomp my feet and insist that ...this happens.

All of the above. Letter D) All of the above. The Exam is 200 questions of which 150 count. 50 of the test questions get thrown out and don't count against our score. They're "expiramental" questions that testwriters throw in to guage how many people miss . We get 4 full hours to finish the test and it costs $450.

Best of luck on your exam, iluv!

I have a friend who has a Versa SV sedan - I've ridden in it a few times. Not the penalty box you would imagine.

iluvmysephia1

Thanks for the well-wishes, Michaell!

I have watched several YouTube videos from people reviewing various Nissan Versa sedan models. Most are fairly complimentary of the small Japanese car. 109 hp and 107 lbs. of ft. torque, so not a powerful engine, of course. Really good ghastly mileage. As usual, and especially since we don't need a new car, getting Mrs. iluv on board will be a challenge similar to passing this big Exam.

sda

iluvmysephia1 said:

Thanks for the well-wishes, Michaell!

I have watched several YouTube videos from people reviewing various Nissan Versa sedan models. Most are fairly complimentary of the small Japanese car. 109 hp and 107 lbs. of ft. torque, so not a powerful engine, of course. Really good ghastly mileage. As usual, and especially since we don't need a new car, getting Mrs. iluv on board will be a challenge similar to passing this big Exam.

Good luck on both fronts iluvmy, especially with the exam!

akirby

Hard to believe anyone is excited over a Versa. I'd prefer a slightly used Focus, Fusion or similar vehicle.

nyccarguy

Pilots & Highlanders are all over the place here.  They are for the "anti-minivan crowd," yet are just as ubiquitous as mid-sized sedans

benjaminh

The shocking 48% decline in Sonata sales is difficult for me to understand. In most comparison tests of midsize sedans, the Sonata rates very highly. And although most competitors have increased their level of standard equipment significantly in the last 5-6 years, the Sonata still has overall the highest level of standard stuff in the base model. The quality and reliability of the Sonata is, I think, pretty much equal at this point to a Nissan or maybe even a Honda.

So why the collapse of Sonata sales? My guess is that one big factor is the styling. The last generation had rather radical or even strange styling for a midsize sedan, but it had the virtue that it looked different from other cars on the road. Starting in 2015, this generation of Sonata really looks quite bland.

Does anyone else have a guess as to why the Sonata sales have fallen faster than any other major midsize car?

But whatever the reason, there are now some amazing deals on the Sonata. One of my local Hyundai dealers has one leftover 2016 Sonata that is discounted more than $6000 from the already fairly reasonable msrp. For just $16,021 you can get this brand new white Sonata:

http://www.hyundaioflouisville.com/inventory/2016-hyundai-sonata-fwd-4d-sedan-5npe24af0gh418937

At the Honda dealer a few miles away, the lowest priced Honda Accord LX is $22,500 (1500 off msrp, although you could probably get 3k off if you tried), the lowest-priced Civic is $19,000 (1400 off msrp), and the lowest priced Fit is $16,500 (500 off msrp).

Basically for the same money as a manual transmission base Fit at the Honda dealer, you could drive off with a nicely-equipped Sonata. I'm a Honda fan, but if you really only have 16k to spend that's a tough call. I think I'd probably pick the Sonata,

andres3

benjaminh said:

The shocking 48% decline in Sonata sales is difficult for me to understand. In most comparison tests of midsize sedans, the Sonata rates very highly. And although most competitors have increased their level of standard equipment significantly in the last 5-6 years, the Sonata still has overall the highest level of standard stuff in the base model. The quality and reliability of the Sonata is, I think, pretty much equal at this point to a Nissan or maybe even a Honda.

So why the collapse of Sonata sales? My guess is that one big factor is the styling. The last generation had rather radical or even strange styling for a midsize sedan, but it had the virtue that it looked different from other cars on the road. Starting in 2015, this generation of Sonata really looks quite bland.

Does anyone else have a guess as to why the Sonata sales have fallen faster than any other major midsize car?

But whatever the reason, there are now some amazing deals on the Sonata. One of my local Hyundai dealers has one leftover 2016 Sonata that is discounted more than $6000 from the already fairly reasonable msrp. For just $16,021 you can get this brand new white Sonata:

http://www.hyundaioflouisville.com/inventory/2016-hyundai-sonata-fwd-4d-sedan-5npe24af0gh418937

At the Honda dealer a few miles away, the lowest priced Honda Accord LX is $22,500 (1500 off msrp, although you could probably get 3k off if you tried), the lowest-priced Civic is $19,000 (1400 off msrp), and the lowest priced Fit is $16,500 (500 off msrp).

Basically for the same money as a manual transmission Fit at the Honda dealer you could drive off with a nicely equipped Sonata. I'm a Honda fan, but if you really only have 16k to spend that's a tough call. I think I'd probably pick the Sonata,

Incentives maybe crazy a year ago and now non-existent? Not sure why the 48% decline, but I think you have to look at Optima and Sonata sales as one unit to get the big picture. Doesn't that change things?

benjaminh

And for just $1300 more you can get a brand-new 2017 Sonata, which now has AdroidAuto/Carplay standard. It also has heated folding side mirrors with turn signals, auto headlights, XM stereo with 6 speakers, lighted vanity mirrors, etc., etc., plus that 10 year warranty. It's a heck of a lot of car for $17,300. And that's still less than the discounted price of a base Civic without AndroidAuto or any of that other stuff.

andres3

the base Hyundai.Kia midsize sedan motor isn't competitive in my opinion. You have to step up to the 1.6 T-Eco drive train. That might have something to do with it.

akirby

Big sales swings like that are usually due to fleet sales.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

the base Hyundai.Kia midsize sedan motor isn't competitive in my opinion. You have to step up to the 1.6 T-Eco drive train. That might have something to do with it.

The standard 2.4 liter engine on the Sonata is direct-injected and has 185 horsepower. The power is pretty much identical to what you get in the 2.4 in the Accord, or the standard 2.5s in the Camry, Altima, and Fusion.

I've driven all of these cars with these engines, and although the Accord's imho is smoother and more refined than the others, I think the rest of them are pretty similar....

andres3

benjaminh said:

andres3 said:

the base Hyundai.Kia midsize sedan motor isn't competitive in my opinion. You have to step up to the 1.6 T-Eco drive train. That might have something to do with it.

The standard 2.4 liter engine on the Sonata is direct-injected and has 185 horsepower. The power is pretty much identical to what you get in the 2.4 in the Accord, or the standard 2.5s in the Camry, Altima, and Fusion.

I've driven all of these cars with these engines, and although the Accord's imho is smoother and more refined than the others, I think the rest of them are pretty similar....

Not to argue, but I test drove the Optima base engine 2.4, and it was sluggish with the 6-speed auto. What gave it away was going up a fairly large hill. It's not particularly steep, but it's a nice long hill. I think if it wasn't for the hill I wouldn't have noticed the huffing and puffing vs. the Accord's 2.4 CVT combo. Certainly, on paper, 185 HP looks good.

However, car companies have been known to fudge numbers, whether it be emissions, HP, or MPG.

Just reporting my personal opinion based on my personal test drive.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

benjaminh said:

andres3 said:

the base Hyundai.Kia midsize sedan motor isn't competitive in my opinion. You have to step up to the 1.6 T-Eco drive train. That might have something to do with it.

The standard 2.4 liter engine on the Sonata is direct-injected and has 185 horsepower. The power is pretty much identical to what you get in the 2.4 in the Accord, or the standard 2.5s in the Camry, Altima, and Fusion.

I've driven all of these cars with these engines, and although the Accord's imho is smoother and more refined than the others, I think the rest of them are pretty similar....

Not to argue, but I test drove the Optima base engine 2.4, and it was sluggish with the 6-speed auto. What gave it away was going up a fairly large hill. It's not particularly steep, but it's a nice long hill. I think if it wasn't for the hill I wouldn't have noticed the huffing and puffing vs. the Accord's 2.4 CVT combo. Certainly, on paper, 185 HP looks good.

However, car companies have been known to fudge numbers, whether it be emissions, HP, or MPG.

Just reporting my personal opinion based on my personal test drive.

Good point. And come to think of it, I think that's also something we've heard here from someone about the engine in the Mazda6. On paper, it looks competitive, but in the real world, iirc, someone said that it lacks some of the power of its competitors.

ab348

And for just a few dollars more you can get a 2017 Sonata. Remarkable.

I actually like this generation of the Sonata better than the swoopy one. I'm not crazy about the dashboard design but at those prices I could live with it. It has tons of room and from all reports drives as well as anything comparable in its class.

I expected that Hyundai would be offering huge incentives to move the metal and it looks like they are.

sda

benjaminh said:

The shocking 48% decline in Sonata sales is difficult for me to understand. In most comparison tests of midsize sedans, the Sonata rates very highly. And although most competitors have increased their level of standard equipment significantly in the last 5-6 years, the Sonata still has overall the highest level of standard stuff in the base model. The quality and reliability of the Sonata is, I think, pretty much equal at this point to a Nissan or maybe even a Honda.

So why the collapse of Sonata sales? My guess is that one big factor is the styling. The last generation had rather radical or even strange styling for a midsize sedan, but it had the virtue that it looked different from other cars on the road. Starting in 2015, this generation of Sonata really looks quite bland.

Does anyone else have a guess as to why the Sonata sales have fallen faster than any other major midsize car?

But whatever the reason, there are now some amazing deals on the Sonata. One of my local Hyundai dealers has one leftover 2016 Sonata that is discounted more than $6000 from the already fairly reasonable msrp. For just $16,021 you can get this brand new white Sonata:

http://www.hyundaioflouisville.com/inventory/2016-hyundai-sonata-fwd-4d-sedan-5npe24af0gh418937

At the Honda dealer a few miles away, the lowest priced Honda Accord LX is $22,500 (1500 off msrp, although you could probably get 3k off if you tried), the lowest-priced Civic is $19,000 (1400 off msrp), and the lowest priced Fit is $16,500 (500 off msrp).

Basically for the same money as a manual transmission base Fit at the Honda dealer, you could drive off with a nicely-equipped Sonata. I'm a Honda fan, but if you really only have 16k to spend that's a tough call. I think I'd probably pick the Sonata,

I am seeing similar pricing and agree the Sonata, a solid choice, would be a financially logical purchase.

stickguy

I was looking at the "swoopy" styled model, but after seeing side by side, I spent extra for the new style. Much cleaner looking IMO (and more expensive looking!). And vastly better interior. but, as always, YMMV.

the engine? It actually has plenty of oomph. Especially when up at running speed. But at lower speed, the issue is that, as seems typical today, the trans wants to get into top gears ASAP and stay there as long as possible. But, it has manumatic option (not that I ever use it) so can always drop down a few gears and get back into the meat of the power band.