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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    I didn't see anything where he specifically referred to just styling but if you can read his mind I'll take your word for it. I'll still consider the Flex a crossover or CUV, just as Ford says it is and is marketing it as.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    Why else would someone "hate" minivans and SUVs but like the Flex other than styling?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Maybe utitilty, the way a vehicle rides and handles, gas mileage and the actual use one has for it. If you call all those things style then we just see things differently which is fine. It's more interesting than totally seeing everything the same way.

    I just find the Flex so close in "style" to both of those type of vehicles that to say you hate one but love the other doesn'nt make sense to me.
    But that's what makes the world go around, I'm not putting anybody down for it....just disagreeing. I don't hate any vehicle, they all have their good points and bad.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    There isn't much difference in ride and handling, fuel mileage, etc. between a Flex, an Explorer and a minivan.

    I just find the Flex so close in "style" to both of those type of vehicles that to say you hate one but love the other doesn'nt make sense to me.

    Have you actually seen a Flex? It's a totally unique vehicle. It doesn't look like anything else and that's part of the appeal - a big part. There are people who would kill for a Flex who would never consider an Explorer or a minivan. I don't know why that's so hard to understand unless you're only considering the number of passengers and not how the vehicles actually look inside and outside.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    It's funny how you say there isn't much difference in these vehicles but find it justified to hate two of them and love the other. So you're saying there isn't much difference in these vehicles besides looks.

    I just rode in a Flex the other day. The body shop gave me a ride home and picked me up in one. It was nice, rode well, seemed peppy enough, etc. Nothing wrong with it. As far as people that would kill for it? You must run with a rough crowd.

    To me it just looks like an XB on steroids and that's not a pretty thought. Like I said, we just see this vehicle differently and you're not going to convince me that it's really a thing of beauty and I'm not going to convince you that it's ugly. We just disagree on something that there is no final answer because looks are just a matter of personal taste.

    Take care.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    You're confused. acdii said he hated minivans and SUVs but liked the Flex. You said the Flex was "basically" the same as a minivan and that with the Explorer here there was no need for a Flex.

    What I was trying to point out is that the Flex is totally different than a minivan and it's different than the Explorer.

    There are people who hate minivans but love the Flex like acdii. There are people like my wife who love the new Explorer but absolutely hates the Flex AND minivans. And there are people who love minivans but hate the Flex. Because they LOOK like totally different vehicles even if they perform the same function. People are paying almost $50K for a loaded Flex because it's unique and it offers a 365 hp engine. Nobody buys a minivan because it's unique or because it offers 365 hp. People who buy a Flex don't take them camping or buy them to tow a small boat - but they do buy Explorers for that.

    If you think they're the same then good for you but that opinion doesn't apply to everyone else.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    edited September 2010
    If you think they're the same then good for you but that opinion doesn't apply to everyone else.

    Gee, you're finally getting it. I don't need to have everyone agree with me. I'm just offering my personal opinion.. I didn't say they were the same but I still think that the Flex is a CUV and acdii said he hated CUVs along with SUVs and Minivans. If you want to make the Flex out to be some one-of-a-kind wondercar that is different than anything else on the planet that's up to you.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    acdii said he hated CUVs along with SUVs and Minivans.

    Absolutely wrong. What he said was.......

    So now our choices are, ick, dreaded minivan, SUV, or a CUV. I have 3 kids, and hate minivans and SUV's, but found that the Flex is a good alternative to those

    You started the argument saying you couldn't understand how he could possibly like one but hate the other two because they were basically the same thing. To most people they're not the same at all.

    I didn't say they were the same


    The Flex is nothing more than a squared off minivan with regular doors instead of sliders. At best most people would think it's a CUV(SUV shaped body on a car frame, at least that my definition). You can continue to believe it is somehow different because it has a little different style and decent power but it's basically the same thing.

    I give up. No point arguing with someone who can't keep a conversation or facts straight.
  • Anyone? Anyone? Bueler?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    edited September 2010
    Ok, you're right he said "dreaded minivan, SUV or a CUV". Are we
    getting very anal here or what? I'm not saying they are all physically exactly the same. I said they are basically the same. Big square body type vehicle that sits a lot of people and can haul a lot of stuff to put it simply. Let's use some common sense here. IMO the Flex is a SUV body on a car frame which is a CUV which is what Ford says it is. If someone says they dread a CUV but then goes on about how much he loves one what is one to think. acdii said dreaded minivans, suvs and cuvs. If someone dreads something I assume they don't like it. So let's keep the facts straight on both sides.

    To most people they're not the same at all.

    Have you taken a scientific survey on this or is this just your opinion? If you have some facts please spit them out. Unless you have some facts it ends up being just your WAG. Personally, I think the average person looking at the Flex, at least those not worshiping cars like we do, would probably say it's some kind of SUV for lack of better description. That's what my wife thought when I got dropped off by the bodyshop. But that is simply an opinion so I'm not going to say that most people think that. I'll leave that to you.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    What? The Flex is not a midsize car with a high rear roof. My mistake. Back to topic.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,025
    Heads-ups are best handled by email. If I see your "heads up," I've already seen and elminated the spam. The "heads up" post doesn't, surprisingly, send an alert to my bedside and wake me up. :)

    Also, let's get back to midsize sedans. I don't think we can legitimately call the Flex a midsize sedan... even if we cut the top off, it's still more like a full-size sedan, and I don't have a torch handy anyway.


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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    If my opinion is just a WAG, then that would also make your opinion a WAG, so let's call it a draw and get back to midsize sedans.
  • But waking you up would be rude. :)

    Thanks kirstie!
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 421
    For anyone in the market for a car in the next 3-6 months, or even anyone following the midsize market, what cars are on your test drive list?

    1. Kia Optima SX Turbo: Cant wait for this car. Lots of tech, great FE, looks fantastic and a ton of power and torque. Downside is that it's a first year model and while Kia/Hyundai is making fantastic strides and getting great reviews on the new models, they're still not quite as established as some other car makers.

    2. Ford Fusion Sport: So well reviewed and would love to have the SYNC system in a car. Power and performance make it sound like a fun car to drive. Downside would be the exterior look that I like but dont love and the FE on the V6 model isnt fantastic.

    3. Honda Accord EX-L: I've had a lot of experience with Accords and I trust them. Solid car and nice interior. Downside is I really dont like a lot of the design elements they've gone with lately and the car is so ubiquitous. It's everywhere.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    I would agree with your first two, dash5. Kia is now rolling out a system very similar to SYNC, so that's an additional point in their favor. My third would be the turbo Regal, when it appears. For that matter, since I found a normal four-cylinder Fusion perfectly acceptable for my driving style, the non-turbo versions of the new Optima and Regal would be cars I would seriously consider.

    I'd be interested in the Sonata, but my local Hyundai/Chrysler/Jeep/Mazda dealer is slimy. One other to consider for me would be the Altima--it's about due for a refresh, but it still looks fresh and rates among the class leaders.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    edited September 2010
    I would add the Altima. I like the tech, powerful V6(RUG for 2010+ and gets decent mpg, has great range which is nice in the winter(20 gal tank that fills on the driver side which I like) and the decked out models have every bell and whistle I like including mirror blinkers, Homelink, back-up camera, etc. The interior with the leather is very nice and approaches Infiniti in materials. Even the I4 has good power as it gets to it's peak hp/torque at lower rpms than just about all the competitors. Check out the prices at Fitzmall. They are around $5k+ off list which I think is a great deal.

    Downsides: CVT. However they have a 10 year warranty on that and seem to have worked out the bugs in the latest iteration. Every once in awhile when I park near someone with an Altima and see the owner I ask them how they like their Altima and not one has ever said they didn't like the tranny so maybe it grows on you. Others may not like the styling but I like it, IMO it kind of squats and looks like a road hugger even if it's not.

    I feel the exactly the same way about the Fusions Sport as you do. In addition, I don't like the interior that well either. Doesn't have Homelink which I really like. Agree totally on the Sync system...would love it but won't buy a certain car to get it.


    Accord= just can't stand the recent designs, otherwise it seems like a good car.

    Another I would add is the tubo Regal possibly. One of the few things that most reviewers cite is the lack of grunt and engine when pushed with the current I4. The turbo version could be very tempting as I loved the quality feel and sense of luxury when I drove one but it did feel a little anemic. If the price is right and it feels powerful and still gets decent mpg I would be very interested in it.

    I have other vehicles on my list but they aren't midsize cars so I won't go there.
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 421
    Yeah I suppose I would swap out the Accord for the new Regal. Accord is kind of my go to car if nothing else out there appeals to me for whatever reason. My Dad and sister in law have one so I know exactly what I'd be getting.

    The Regal though, I've been kinda down on it lately. At first I was loving it but then ... what's it going to run me? Load it up now on Buick's site and it's almost 32k. With turbo what am I looking at? And color... it's either black, white, silver or beige?

    Having said all that, I can totally see myself test driving one and loving it.

    I really hope Kia comes through with that UVO/SYNC by the time the SX models hit the floor by the way. Does Buick have anything like that?
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 421
    I do like the Altima, it was actually one of my top contenders before I became aware of the Sonata/Optima and Regal. It's another car I'd revisit should I be disappointed in the others. Another good example of a styling i like but don't love, and a solid well reviewed car.
  • Click me!

    It's too bad it sounds like not much more than a refresh, since the platform hasn't had any significant changes in 9 years...

    The preview photos don't show much, other than the now-familiar C-pillar that seems to be untouched from the current version, The tail lights look good (although very similar to other restyled sedans), but the projector headlights and grille don't look very promising. What does, though, is the Pentastar V6 with a 6-speed auto (283 HP, 260 lb-ft). No stats on the I-4 yet...

    If the interior is as improved as promised, it just may get back on the radar of midsize sedan buyers. I'll still wait for the Fiat-based replacement, since just about every other sedan has been redone or refreshed since '01, and IMO Chrysler wasn't at the top of their game then either...
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 421
    edited September 2010
    Supposedly based on this concept, which looks sweet, but yeah a Seabring refresh from what I have read:

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    I think I saw something like that at the Chicago auto show but then again it could have a Fiat model rebranded as a Chrysler that I saw. Anway, it looked pretty nice and that new engine sounds very promising. It will be interesting to see if Chrysler can be viable going forward.

    Although I only have had one Chrysler in my life I rather enjoyed it. It was a 1964 Polara with the pushbutton transmission if I remember correctly.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,721
    Ford Fusion Sport: So well reviewed and would love to have the SYNC system in a car. Power and performance make it sound like a fun car to drive. Downside would be the exterior look that I like but dont love and the FE on the V6 model isnt fantastic.

    My brother recently traded in his '08 Altima on a '10 Fusion Sport. I got a tell ya, it's a hell of a good car. I was quite impressed at how well it drove. Quiet, refined, quick, and handling is impressive (the 3.5 v6 impressed me with it's smoothness and high end punch). Definitely a fun car to drive. Sync is very slick. It also says something, that the Fusion is my brother's first domestic car ever. Before the Altima he had an '06 Maxima.

    The exterior of the Fusion Sport has grown on me (I prefer it over the lower trim models). So has the interior. While it may not be the most exciting design, everything feels fairly substantial and quality of materials are better than the Altima and my dad's 09 Accord Ex-L v6 which feels a little on the rough side compared to the Fusion (particularly road noise is much more pronounced in the Accord).

    And what is it with the brakes on the Accords? My dad had to have his rear brake shoes replaced at 28k miles and apparently two other people he knows with '09 Accord's have had similar premature brake wear.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    edited September 2010
    Click me!

    As good as the current Fusion is, this'll only make it better.

    Don't know why it won't be available until '13, seems kinda long just to create a US version of a current car.
  • It took these guys a month to find it. I passed the same car on I-75 in August coming back to Detroit from vacation in Boone NC. I figured it was the Mondero in the USA for testing. If they are not going to base the new Fusion on the Mazda 6 architecture then this is what the current Fusion should be. Do it now Ford! :shades:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    They had to merge the development schedules of both vehicles - the U.S. Fusion and the European Mondeo. Even thought it might be a 2013 model it will probably debut around March of 2012 which is only 18 months away.

    This is all part of Ford's global platform campaign - build one vehicle and sell it everywhere just like the Fiesta and the upcoming 2012 Focus due in March.

    Don't expect the new Fusion to look exactly like that. These are Mondeo testing mules. They wouldn't be showing the new body style now. Given what they were able to do with the Fiesta and Focus I expect a similarly stunning design.

    It's also very likely that the next Taurus will be built on this platform (stretched and/or widened). And the new Fusion will likely only offer 4 cylinder engines including at least one ecoboost (direct injection turbo) model.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Manson, WAPosts: 6,919
    edited September 2010
    than this Mondeo-influenced new Fusion. I think that this is just a Mondeo-mule like was already stated, and Ford will change the bodystyle to something new. Ford is really going great guns right now, and Alan Mulally deserves much credit for it. You know there's lots of great people behind the scenes there with Alan, but man, this would be the American car company I would buy from if I was so inclined to buy American.

    Which I am not. :)

    2013 Toyota "FT-86" which may be named Celica

    I want one of these RWD babies in 6-speed manual transmission form. Proposed pricing is right around $20,000 for the base model. It may get a boxer motor from Subaru with 190hp. 4 cylinders of course and with the proposed idea of keeping the body light that would be more than enough torque and power ta the wheels for this NE Nevada padre to spiddle out. But starting with a great bodystyle like that they can tweak and fiddle and fit all they want and further refine this beauty for production and delivery should be in late 2012 sometime.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    This may be on the edge of our topic but I'm wondering what others may think.

    It seems to me that a big drawback for many buyers to considering a Prius is it's looks. I fully realize the aerodynamics involved in the body styling to achieve that avg 50mpg, but what if it had good looking midsize sedan(interior is already EPA midsize I believe) or hatch metalwork on it and averaged say 45mpg?

    I don't think the aerodynamic change would affect the city mpg that much but the hwy mpg would probably be substantially reduced.. I still believe the avg mpg would be really high.

    I think it could be a very good seller.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,126
    You can get a Camry hybrid or a Fusion hybrid. But for some reason the hybrid sedans don't seem to sell as well. People WANT that weird styling.
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