Midsize Sedans 2.0

andres3

cski said:

nyccarguy said:

cski said:

fushigi said:

We've become a sedan / SUV household. Wife likes smaller cars (currently driving a '12 Elantra) but I really like the CUV/SUV category. Easier entry/exit and higher driving seating position are, for me, much nicer than lowering myself to get in and having to basically climb out of a sedan. I've a bum knee so it takes substantially more effort - and some pain - to deal with a car v. something that rides at CUV height. I don't care much that fuel economy is worse as I average only 8K or so miles a year.

Even with a CVT my QX60 is plenty fast; C&D clocked it at 7.1 seconds to 60. For '17, Infiniti/Nissan bumped the 3.5 to 295HP/270ft-lb so there's power to spare. It's only turning around 2100 RPMs at 80MPH and 2400 at 90. With the 3rd row in use.

I am sorry, but I have become confused by Infiniti's naming system. I swore I saw a Q60 on the highway and it was a slinky sports sedan.

Your eyes are playing tricks on you (or some dope re-badged his sedan), but the Q60 is a coupe. The dealer where I bought my CPO 2015 Q40 has this helpful guide posted on their website: http://www.pepeinfiniti.com/infiniti-model-name-changes.htm

If you take a look at my signature line, it says 2015 Infiniti G37X Q40 AWD.

Hey, thanks for the clear-up without being mean or defensive. A Infinity Q-car used to stand for their top end model, I am familiar with the value and performance of the G37 and the x moniker being AWD.

However, I am getting older and so are my kids. One has left the nest since I have been posting, and now the old 2012 Optima looks, and feels,,,,,tired. I can tell you that the A/C has blown the high pressure hose 3 times in 59,000 miles, and it is MY fault. There is too much traffic here in DC/VA and once we break free, 50% of the male drivers go for broke until their common sense kicks in and 98% slow down. I have little use for common sense. I learn the hard way. It is how I am built. But I am 46 now, so I wear my belt, and I have a GPS based head up display app on my phone with a giant digital speedometer (if you so choose that view). The problem with the Optima I/P is the deep tunnel electronic gauges and too many hash marks on the speedo. So, by the time I get my speed I have taken my eyes off the road for 2 to 4 seconds. That is insane here or anywhere.

I am proud to say that since I set up the display, I have had no tickets. 4 years have gone by. No tickets. I never exceed 69mph....going for broke breaks my car and my wallet. I am not insane, so I am going to pass on the Mustang and buy a 4cyl Accord Sport. Automatic. In the hands of a person with my personality, a Mustang would be a 2600lb weapon, and I always think about my daughters every time I see a pedestrian, or get egged on by some spoiled teenager in an 89 vette. I am done taking chances, blowing high pressure hoses, and killing engines.
Easier said than done. But it must be done.

If driving your car past 69 MPH breaks it, it's time to find a properly engineered car for you

andres3

akirby said:

I think Camry will continue to lead due to fleet sales and probably a lower cost than Accord.

While I think the current Fusion still looks better than either the new Camry or Accord it's going on 7 years with no visual changes to speak of which isn't going to help dwindling sales. People like new and different things.

In the mid-size market, I don't believe "looks" are much of a factor in sales. I think valule is #1 (mind you, value is different than cheapest). This means MPG, durability, and reliability are all huge sales factors.

benjaminh

cski wrote: "However, I am getting older and so are my kids. One has left the nest since I have been posting, and now the old 2012 Optima looks, and feels,,,,,tired. I can tell you that the A/C has blown the high pressure hose 3 times in 59,000 miles..."

It broke 3 times? Hmmm.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Michael, yes, different back east. My outer limit now is driving from philly area to NC for daughter's college. That is about 445 miles. Jetta can do it, and so can my car. The Acura, not even close. But, only 1 more year of that, then our next longest usual trip is up to NY at 270 miles, or Boston at maybe 320. And I doubt I ever get more than 5 miles from a gas station!

445 miles and 5 states (NJ, DE, MD, VA, NC)

445 miles in any direction here and you're only in the next state over (UT, WY, NE, KS or NM)

andres3

pensfan83 said:

benjaminh said:

Just looked it up, and the base 2017 Fusion without any options weighs 3431—more than 300 pounds more than a 2018 Accord LX.

Another area in the Mark Fields era where Ford has fallen behind its rivals.

To be fair, the Domestic makes have trailed as far back as I can remember on key performance statistics, measurements, metrics, and specifications. A Ford being heavier than a Honda is nothing new.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

pensfan83 said:

benjaminh said:

Just looked it up, and the base 2017 Fusion without any options weighs 3431—more than 300 pounds more than a 2018 Accord LX.

Another area in the Mark Fields era where Ford has fallen behind its rivals.

To be fair, the Domestic makes have trailed as far back as I can remember on key performance statistics, measurements, metrics, and specifications. A Ford being heavier than a Honda is nothing new.

Yeah, but the gap is getting larger rather than smaller. Ford is falling even further behind. 5 years ago the Fusion was more or less competitive. Today not so much.

andres3

stickguy said:

The 1.8t engine in the Jetta is a hoot. Love the torque. Civic 1.5t also felt plenty strong. The accord is only going to be a few hundred pounds heavier, but they dialed up the HP so should also be enjoyable to drive.

The mini had serious scoot. Did not even need a downshift to pull hard.

My impressions for the 1.8T come from the heavy Passat, and the only slightly lighter Golf Sportwagen Alltrack, with AWD. I think AWD kills the power and torque of the 1.8T. Something to be said for the efficiency of a FWD configuration. Noticed it in the de-tuned A4 Ultra test drive (rated at 190 HP); felt not that far off the 252 HP Quattro A4.

stickguy

I had a Passat loaner with the 1.8t. felt fine to me. Just a roomier jetta.

andres3

stickguy said:

I had a Passat loaner with the 1.8t. felt fine to me. Just a roomier jetta.

But would you describe it as a "hoot" in the Passat? my main point was I think that AWD saps more power (partially due to weight) than the extra weight itself.

stickguy

AWD might. In the passat, I was just putting around town, but it felt the same as in the Jetta when I needed to get moving. Probably slightly slower, but felt the same in terms of response, etc.

suydam

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Michael, yes, different back east. My outer limit now is driving from philly area to NC for daughter's college. That is about 445 miles. Jetta can do it, and so can my car. The Acura, not even close. But, only 1 more year of that, then our next longest usual trip is up to NY at 270 miles, or Boston at maybe 320. And I doubt I ever get more than 5 miles from a gas station!

445 miles and 5 states (NJ, DE, MD, VA, NC)

445 miles in any direction here and you're only in the next state over (UT, WY, NE, KS or NM)

Not always. It was 500 miles from my part of Ohio to Philly -- 2 states. Actually most of the trip was traveling the width of Pennsylvania.

Michaell

suydam said:

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Michael, yes, different back east. My outer limit now is driving from philly area to NC for daughter's college. That is about 445 miles. Jetta can do it, and so can my car. The Acura, not even close. But, only 1 more year of that, then our next longest usual trip is up to NY at 270 miles, or Boston at maybe 320. And I doubt I ever get more than 5 miles from a gas station!

445 miles and 5 states (NJ, DE, MD, VA, NC)

445 miles in any direction here and you're only in the next state over (UT, WY, NE, KS or NM)

Not always. It was 500 miles from my part of Ohio to Philly -- 2 states. Actually most of the trip was traveling the width of Pennsylvania.

I was only quoting @stickguy's drive to his daughter's college. There are plenty of larger states east of the Mississippi where that amount of mileage will only traverse two states - one if you drive from Memphis to Bristol, TN (502 miles)

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Michael, yes, different back east. My outer limit now is driving from philly area to NC for daughter's college. That is about 445 miles. Jetta can do it, and so can my car. The Acura, not even close. But, only 1 more year of that, then our next longest usual trip is up to NY at 270 miles, or Boston at maybe 320. And I doubt I ever get more than 5 miles from a gas station!

445 miles and 5 states (NJ, DE, MD, VA, NC)

445 miles in any direction here and you're only in the next state over (UT, WY, NE, KS or NM)

In California you could drive 445 miles north or south at a certain point and still be in California.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Michael, yes, different back east. My outer limit now is driving from philly area to NC for daughter's college. That is about 445 miles. Jetta can do it, and so can my car. The Acura, not even close. But, only 1 more year of that, then our next longest usual trip is up to NY at 270 miles, or Boston at maybe 320. And I doubt I ever get more than 5 miles from a gas station!

445 miles and 5 states (NJ, DE, MD, VA, NC)

445 miles in any direction here and you're only in the next state over (UT, WY, NE, KS or NM)

In California you could drive 445 miles north or south at a certain point and still be in California.

I've done that - my home town to Arcata is 637 miles.

Philadelphia to Charleston, SC is 678 miles.

explorerx4

Fusion was first sold in Europe as the Mondeo in 2012.
It's a good design, so the major issue with it, at this point, is perception.
2013 was a tough first year launch.
Considering sedans are out of favor and it is the most configurable in it's segment, why put the money into a redesign and it's your number 3 or 4 seller?

berri

I think Ford should be putting some money into the Explorer. It seems very long in the tooth and mostly a cop car these days. As for cars, Ford probably should bring updated European stuff here since in the US their operations are geared to trucks.

roadburner

As I said, I like the Fiesta ST, the Focus RS, and the Mustang GT and GT350, but that's it for the Ford lineup. Lincolns bore me to tears. I'm cautiously optimistic about the upcoming Bronco; if it has true off-road capability equivalent to a Wrangler I might just buy one on A Plan...

stickguy

stopped at the Ford dealer tonight while we were out. They had a nice Laguna Blue Mustang convertible in the showroom. Stick shift ecoboost. And yes, I would buy that configuration.

also a bright blue Focus RS. Sticker on that one was 45K. Ouch.

[Deleted User]

stickguy said:

I work range differently. I hate to get gas when on the road, even if I have to make bio and stretch the leg breaks. Would rather get where I am going. Plus, I always leave a cushion, so I work off of about 1/4 tank (or 3 gallons minimum) before refueling. So cut it a little, and the Accord is a 12 gallon in reality capacity. Fine if pulling a legit 40. If getting low 30s, or mid 20s around town, it will have range maybe as good as our RDX, which stinks!

I hear ya brother. Welcome to the club.

[Deleted User]

benjaminh said:

cski wrote: "However, I am getting older and so are my kids. One has left the nest since I have been posting, and now the old 2012 Optima looks, and feels,,,,,tired. I can tell you that the A/C has blown the high pressure hose 3 times in 59,000 miles..."

It broke 3 times? Hmmm.

Well Ben, when I drive it by pounding the gas, downshifting and upshifting to redline through the mixing bowl maze of tunnels, overheads, massive bridges leading folks up and down the east coast, 5 miles of it in fact, something is going to break. I think the A/C clutch may be too slow to keep up. DC roads are also lethal to the suspension of almost anything short of a tank. As soon as I cross into DC it feels like their roads are graded by dumping rocks out of a truck and simultaneously covering them with Gorilla Glue. A fully weaponized Hummer is recommended in order to "negotiate" with obscene and violent drivers, all curiously sporting at least one mini-spare.

[Deleted User]

benjaminh said:

andres3 said:

pensfan83 said:

benjaminh said:

Just looked it up, and the base 2017 Fusion without any options weighs 3431—more than 300 pounds more than a 2018 Accord LX.

Another area in the Mark Fields era where Ford has fallen behind its rivals.

To be fair, the Domestic makes have trailed as far back as I can remember on key performance statistics, measurements, metrics, and specifications. A Ford being heavier than a Honda is nothing new.

Yeah, but the gap is getting larger rather than smaller. Ford is falling even further behind. 5 years ago the Fusion was more or less competitive. Today not so much.

Wow. I thought everyone was still able to tear apart each others cars and basically plagiarized each others systems. I remember everyone wow'ed over the Fusion just a short time ago. It seems like hit or miss...but it isn't at Honda or Toyota or the driving feel of VW's after 17 years of better and better quality control. Passat looks OLD. Drives like a dream.
Turbo's and downsized engines:
Still, my normally aspirated 2.4 liter puts out 200 hp and 186lb-ft in a 2400 lb car. I don't need a turbo.

benjaminh

Your Optima weighs more like 3300 pounds, but as you say, normally aspirated can work fine.

benjaminh

Continuing on with 2018 Camry vs. 2018 Accord....

The 2018 Camry is better, as has been mentioned, for rear visibility from the driver's seat, but the 2018 Accord is superior for cargo volume/trunk space and interior room.

For cargo volume, the 2018 Accord has a class-leading 16.7 cubic feet of space in the trunk. That's huge. It's bigger than my old Oldsmobile 98 from the 1980s. As a comparison, my 2008 Accord had about a 15 foot trunk. My 2016 Accord measures in at 15.8.

The 2018 Camry has good enough cargo room, but at 15.1 feet it'll seem on the small side compared to the 2018 Accord. On big trips the extra room is likely to be useful.

For overall interior room, the 2018 Accord measures in at 105.7 cubic feet in models without the moonroof, while the 2018 Camry comes in at 100.4. The place where this might make the most difference is the rear seat. The 2018 Accord has a Lincoln-like 40.5 inches of rear legroom, while the 2018 Camry has a comfortable but more average 38 inches. For front headroom the Accord also comes out ahead at 39.1 compared to the Camry's 38.3.

benjaminh

cski said:

....

I think the 2018 Camry is the only attractive Camry I have ever seen. I think the "L" will stand for "leased" and probably will be the new rental fleet choice, along with the Malibu as a more conservative rental. The Camry is a spaceship in comparison. Love the new Civic Touring. Never have loved a Civic either. I am trying to keep an open mind on the whole array of choices as my cars 5th birthday is up in December.

So, the new Civic is on your shopping list? I'm shocked. Is KIA on your shopping list too?

sda

While I am not that keen on the massive grille opening and boomer rang style tail lights, I like the looks of the Accord better than the Camry. I will be interested to see final pricing, equipment and reviews on both. The size of both cars is perfect for me and I will be needing to find a replacement as my daughter will need a car in the next year or so. Wife says she will not part with her Pilot.

benjaminh

So, for keeping score so far on 2018 Camry vs. 2018 Accord

Style: Very subjective and seemingly a tie to me when looking at the 2018 Camry LE compared to the 2018 Accord. Both look somewhat strange. Maybe a slight edge to the Accord, which is growing on me as I study the details. But the non-LE models of the 2018 Camry look freakish and awful to me. Again, very subjective, obviously.

Features: 2018 Accord LX for the win with standard AndroidAuto, low-speed adaptive cruise control, standard push-button start/smart entry, and standard dual-zone climate control. None of these things are standard on the Camry LE, although everything except AndroidAuto is available on higher trims or as an option.. The only advantage for the 2018 Camry LE that I can find seems to be a standard power seat on the LE, although down at the truly entry L level that's eliminated.

Rear visibility from driver's seat: 2018 Camry for the win with Hofmeister kink

Interior room and trunk space: 2018 Accord wins

MPG: Almost certainly a tie here. The 2018 Camry currently has a class-leading 32 mpg combined, but it seems certain the 2018 Accord is going to match that.

akirby

explorerx4 said:

Fusion was first sold in Europe as the Mondeo in 2012.
It's a good design, so the major issue with it, at this point, is perception.
2013 was a tough first year launch.
Considering sedans are out of favor and it is the most configurable in it's segment, why put the money into a redesign and it's your number 3 or 4 seller?

The new Mondeo didn't launch until 2014 - a year after the Fusion.

They did put money into a mid cycle refresh for 2017 - they even changed all the front end panels. The problem is they look exactly like the previous ones so they spent the money but got nothing for it.

Fusion sales dropped way more the last year than the sedan market or as much as Accord/Camry. They could still be selling 20k-25K units per month instead of the 15K they're selling now if they had done more updates. And considering the factory is now underutilized that makes it worse.

akirby

berri said:

I think Ford should be putting some money into the Explorer. It seems very long in the tooth and mostly a cop car these days. As for cars, Ford probably should bring updated European stuff here since in the US their operations are geared to trucks.

They already brought all the European stuff here - Escape, Focus, Fiesta, C-Max, Fusion, Edge, Transit and Transit Connect are all on European based platforms now.

Explorer was greenlighted 2 years ago to go on the new CD6 platform (RWD) along with a new Aviator. Apparently Mark Fields delayed or tried to kill that program outright and had planned to keep the current explorer a few more years. The new management has reversed that and is trying to speed up the new Explorer/Aviator program again but I suspect it will still take another 18 - 24 months.

ab348

I appreciate @benjaminh 's synopsis of the new versions of the 2 bestselling midsize sedans, Camry & Accord. But really, it will all come down to driving experience in most cases, at least for those of us in this group. If one of them is a slug, or wallowy in the bends, or noisy, feels cheap inside, or has other major issues, we will likely hear of it here first and pass the word.

ab348

Just after posting the above I checked my email and found this link from Cnet's Roadshow that compares the specs of the Accord, Camry and Sonata. Interesting summary:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2018-by-the-numbers-honda-accord-vs-toyota-camry-vs-hyundai-sonata/?ftag=CAD13782fc&bhid=25416315718523622077081880631938

benjaminh

This is seemingly the first Camry that's actually somewhat fun to drive, even in LE trim. Here's a report from the NY Daily News:

"I was pleasantly surprised by the Camry LE’s driving dynamics. The 4-cylinder engine is remarkably strong, the transmission shifts quickly and intuitively, the steering has good weight to it, the brakes are responsive and easy to modulate, and the ride is compliant yet composed. Bumps and sharper dips have no impact on the car’s equilibrium, and the suspension expertly manages dive, squat, and roll."

But the reviewer also is mixed about the rear seat:

"....it feels low and a bit lacking in terms of support. The backrest remains reclined at too great an angle, promoting a slouched seating position, and it simply isn’t as easy to gracefully enter and exit the car.

After spending half an hour riding in the Camry’s back seat, I was ready to ride up front. It’s not torturous by any means, but neither does it feel like a place you’re willing to spend more time than is absolutely necessary. Materials used for the rear of the cabin appear to get a downgrade, too, most noticeably in the hard rather than soft material on the upper portions of the door panels."

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/first-drive-2018-toyota-camry-review-article-1.3263007

benjaminh

Motor Trend also likes the handling of the 2018 Camry:

"Camrys have been known for comfortable rides, but nimble handling typically has been way down the engineers’ kaizen wish list. Yet it’s the eighth-gen Camry’s biggest improvement. This might be the best-riding and -handling Camry to date, thanks to its lower body, 1.9-inch wheelbase stretch, almost inch-broader rear track, and new control-arm and toe-link rear suspension. (Those who cut and paste the press kit will call them “double wishbones,” but technically they are not.)

Cornering is flat and unflappable with good neutral balance in all variants. Mild efforts at hooning the rear loose with late braking and steering wheel flicks are stonewalled, and careful steering into turns evinces no plowing understeer. I occasionally had to remind myself that I was, indeed, driving a Toyota product."

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/camry/2018/2018-toyota-camry-first-drive-review/

stickguy

Nice. I have heard that before from early previews. I plan to drive both. Hard to justify spending $10k more for a premium nameplate, based on how good these models are now. After driving some civics, I expect the accord will be a very nice drive.

[Deleted User]

stickguy said:

stopped at the Ford dealer tonight while we were out. They had a nice Laguna Blue Mustang convertible in the showroom. Stick shift ecoboost. And yes, I would buy that configuration.

also a bright blue Focus RS. Sticker on that one was 45K. Ouch.

I drove that car. Minus the convertible. It goes like stink and the 6 speed has fantastic feel and the clutch engagement so smooth that you cant really screw it up. Salesman was SCARED on just a one-2 shift and I cruised the rest of the time for his benefit. I hate chaperoned test drives. I am NOT going to buy any car unless I at least spend an hour in it....at least.

[Deleted User]

I really love fords 2.3 ecoboost manual trans drivetrain.....fantastic in a stang, wish it was in the Fusion. Is it? I have not posted much in a year.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

Nice. I have heard that before from early previews. I plan to drive both. Hard to justify spending $10k more for a premium nameplate, based on how good these models are now. After driving some civics, I expect the accord will be a very nice drive.

And Acura, Lexus, etc. is definitely nicer, but the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 10 years.

The loaded Civic Touring in some ways is as good as an Acura.

[Deleted User]

benjaminh said:

Your Optima weighs more like 3300 pounds, but as you say, normally aspirated can work fine.

I am a little rusty and yes it indeed says 3297 on the doorplate. Thanks for the correction.

Also, it IS curious that KIA replaces the high pressure A/C hose and never says a word. If I was indeed breaking it by my driving it like a rally car, and no one else had multiple breaks; they would question it.

[Deleted User]

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

Nice. I have heard that before from early previews. I plan to drive both. Hard to justify spending $10k more for a premium nameplate, based on how good these models are now. After driving some civics, I expect the accord will be a very nice drive.

And Acura, Lexus, etc. is definitely nicer, but the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 10 years.

The loaded Civic Touring in some ways is as good as an Acura.

The Civic Touring with dual pipes tucked under the gorgeous bodywork looks like Darth Vader's empire cruiser. Instant hit on styling. Proud of Honda.

akirby

cski said:

I really love fords 2.3 ecoboost manual trans drivetrain.....fantastic in a stang, wish it was in the Fusion. Is it? I have not posted much in a year.

No, it's not available in a Fusion, but the 2.7L V6 ecoboost with 325 hp and 380 lb/ft is available in the Fusion sport (AWD).

pensfan83

explorerx4 said:

Fusion was first sold in Europe as the Mondeo in 2012.
It's a good design, so the major issue with it, at this point, is perception.
2013 was a tough first year launch.
Considering sedans are out of favor and it is the most configurable in it's segment, why put the money into a redesign and it's your number 3 or 4 seller?

I think the Fusion has very good bones and does most everything well, it's also a good value.. If they addressed some of what I feel are its shortcomings, at least in the Sport trim, I would be more interested.

benjaminh

Test Driven gives a video preview of the 2018 Accord....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0XxJWeZgIo

benjaminh

Test Driven drives the 2018 Camry....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_V9pePmC2g&t=3s

benjaminh

Auto Guide test drives and reviews the revised 2018 Sonata....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd7u2lBNcLw

roadburner

cski said:

benjaminh said:

Your Optima weighs more like 3300 pounds, but as you say, normally aspirated can work fine.

I am a little rusty and yes it indeed says 3297 on the doorplate. Thanks for the correction.

Also, it IS curious that KIA replaces the high pressure A/C hose and never says a word. If I was indeed breaking it by my driving it like a rally car, and no one else had multiple breaks; they would question it.

I've replaced brakes and tires on my track rats but never an A/C hose- and that goes for my BMWs as well as my Mazdaspeed. My X3 needed .25 pounds of refrigerant after 13 years, but that's it. I beat on my E36/5 like a red-headed stepchild and after 22.5 years of ownership the A/C has never been touched. Which is pretty much true about the rest of the car for that matter...

stickguy

Impressive review on the Camry updated ride and handling. Certainly worth a look

benjaminh

cski said:

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

Nice. I have heard that before from early previews. I plan to drive both. Hard to justify spending $10k more for a premium nameplate, based on how good these models are now. After driving some civics, I expect the accord will be a very nice drive.

And Acura, Lexus, etc. is definitely nicer, but the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 10 years.

The loaded Civic Touring in some ways is as good as an Acura.

The Civic Touring with dual pipes tucked under the gorgeous bodywork looks like Darth Vader's empire cruiser. Instant hit on styling. Proud of Honda.

Never thought of it that way, but maybe lol!

stickguy

Civic def looks better in a darker color IMO.

Michaell

benjaminh said:

cski said:

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

Nice. I have heard that before from early previews. I plan to drive both. Hard to justify spending $10k more for a premium nameplate, based on how good these models are now. After driving some civics, I expect the accord will be a very nice drive.

And Acura, Lexus, etc. is definitely nicer, but the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 10 years.

The loaded Civic Touring in some ways is as good as an Acura.

The Civic Touring with dual pipes tucked under the gorgeous bodywork looks like Darth Vader's empire cruiser. Instant hit on styling. Proud of Honda.

Never thought of it that way, but maybe lol!

I think this is what @cski was referring to:

andres3

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

Nice. I have heard that before from early previews. I plan to drive both. Hard to justify spending $10k more for a premium nameplate, based on how good these models are now. After driving some civics, I expect the accord will be a very nice drive.

And Acura, Lexus, etc. is definitely nicer, but the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 10 years.

The loaded Civic Touring in some ways is as good as an Acura.

I didn't look at the new Civic's interior, but the Accord interior (2017 model) is very "commoner" status compared to Acura's TLX interior, which is quite nice. Certainly a pretty big step up when it comes to materials used to fill the cabin.

andres3

roadburner said:

cski said:

benjaminh said:

Your Optima weighs more like 3300 pounds, but as you say, normally aspirated can work fine.

I am a little rusty and yes it indeed says 3297 on the doorplate. Thanks for the correction.

Also, it IS curious that KIA replaces the high pressure A/C hose and never says a word. If I was indeed breaking it by my driving it like a rally car, and no one else had multiple breaks; they would question it.

I've replaced brakes and tires on my track rats but never an A/C hose- and that goes for my BMWs as well as my Mazdaspeed. My X3 needed .25 pounds of refrigerant after 13 years, but that's it. I beat on my E36/5 like a red-headed stepchild and after 22.5 years of ownership the A/C has never been touched. Which is pretty much true about the rest of the car for that matter...

I think some older unreliable cars of the past may have fared better with very delicate gentle drivers. I can't see that being true with today's modern automobiles.