Midsize Sedans 2.0

thegraduate

I've heard so many 3800 and 4300 GM engines whining like a toddler wanting his toy that I just associate them with transmission failure. Maybe they don't fail, but rather make the noise.

I trust the 4-cyl Honda transmission, but I wouldn't want a V6 Honda, after personal experiences with them and stories I've read. They made strides in "making it right" with the customers but still, a problem's a problem.

tlong

I trust the 4-cyl Honda transmission, but I wouldn't want a V6 Honda, after personal experiences with them and stories I've read. They made strides in "making it right" with the customers but still, a problem's a problem.

Well, I just turned 100K on my 2005 Acura TL and no tranny problems yet! Also no repairs (other than battery, tires, brakes) at all during the first 100K, other than a door handle cap and the exterior temp sensor recall.

plekto

I test drove both the Regal and the Sonata and I prefer the Regal because it has a solid feel, more than the Sonata, it's very quiet car, a lot quieter than the Sonata.

Well, it IS a better vehicle. You would expect a Mercedes to be engineered a little better than a Mazda. Of course, that doesn't keep either from making turds from time to time.

You're very negative. The Enclave has been praised and has/is doing very well. The LaCrosse is also doing well and now the Regal. Buick has been near the top of JD Powers quality surveys for several years. There has been duds too but all in all they are showing a fair amount of promise.

True, GM is doing better all the time. But go drive a BMW 3 series or the G25. There's a world of difference between proven long-term success that nobody is talking about in the press as it's just old news versus GM making an above average car and not falling on its face again. Well, the lack of a turbo right off is a major "oops" - by the time it gets here, 90% of the novelty will have worn off.

The G25 is a radial game-changer, though. It crushes the entire marketplace. A Regal or a G25. Go drive both and honestly tell me if you don't feel like something is wrong that you can't quite put your finger on with the Buick.

mz6greyghost

That turbo engine that the Sonata will have and still be fuel efficent (22 MPG) is going to be a huge deal maker for a lot of people. That's will be the sweet spot for a lot of enthusiasts.

Not if the enthusiast like to turn a corner, apparently.

IL just road-tested a Sonata SE 2.0T (the SE having a sportier suspension than the GLS), and despite being impressed with the turbo 4 and braking, body roll was "noticeable", and the steering felt "artificial" and provided minimal feedback. The author suggested offering a "sport package" to better match the suspension to the engine.

Considering that most enthusiasts I know (if not all of them) like to cut a few tight apexes when driving on a windy stretch of two-lane highway, they'd probably want a little more than the 2.0T can offer.

I wonder if the new Optima will do better in the handling department, since it already spanks the Sonata in looks alone...

mz6greyghost

A Regal or a G25. Go drive both and honestly tell me if you don't feel like something is wrong that you can't quite put your finger on with the Buick.

Not a fair comparison, since the G25 is in an entirely different class as well as RWD (not to mention the not-so-small price difference a semi-loaded G25 will cost compared to the Regal). I've heard the Regal matches well to the Acura TSX, although I haven't driven a Regal yet to find out for myself...

As stated before, it seems to be a good "in-between" sedan, comparing well to the more-expensive midsize offerings, while saving a few $$$ compared to Acura and Audi. Does it compare to a G25? No way. But then again, I'm not expecting it to.

plekto

People wanting luxury aren't wed to FWD or RWD, so that's not a huge factor. (if anything, RWD is preferred these days). They are roughly the same size and cost.

The thing is, they ARE in the same segment because there is considerable price overlap.(as with the TSX) Even without the turbo added, which will cost considerably more, your options are stripped out rental or properly optioned at 30-32K. It's just GM missing the mark again.

The TSX and G25 come standard with the equivalent of GM's 2nd to top trim level, with nearly every option added as their *base* models, which forces the issue, since GM's cars optioned out to match them are the same price. Nobody who buys a Regal wants a stripped-down rental, either. So the dealers are all only ordering ones that are in the 28-30K range as a minimum. Then charging full MSRP.

Shoot, a properly optioned-out Chevy Cruze is 27K. Something is just simply wrong with GM's pricing.

daneel

Agree with you, tlong. My 2004 Accord EX V6 with automatic transmission has been superb over the past 58,000 miles, no problems, never "gear hunting", and as smooth as the day I bought the car. I will buy another V6 Accord without hesitation.

backy

And then there are those millions of drivers who spend their driving lives motoring across the flat prairies of the middle US, or schlepping through rush-hour traffic on urban highways, and will never get close to using the full handling capability of even the most mundane mid-sized sedans.

You might try actually driving the 2.0T before saying that the car will leave all enthusiasts wanting. Of course, it's possible all enthusiasts would rather be driving a Porsche than a mid-sized family sedan...

mz6greyghost

And then there are those millions of drivers who spend their driving lives motoring across the flat prairies of the middle US, or schlepping through rush-hour traffic on urban highways, and will never get close to using the full handling capability of even the most mundane mid-sized sedans.

You're right, but the vast majority of those millions don't consider themselves "enthusiasts".

You might try actually driving the 2.0T before saying that the car will leave all enthusiasts wanting.

I don't remember saying anything of the sort, I do recall stating that apparently, the 2.0T isn't geared toward enthusiasts that may also put a premium on handling. I will most likely take a 2.0T out for a test-drive soon, but it doesn't mean I can't read what other people have said about it.

Of course, it's possible all enthusiasts would rather be driving a Porsche than a mid-sized family sedan...

True, but it's also possible most enthusiasts can't afford a Porsche as a second (or third) car, and they also don't want to be stuck driving an "appliance" just because they need a reasonably-priced 4-door.

mz6greyghost

So the dealers are all only ordering ones that are in the 28-30K range as a minimum. Then charging full MSRP.

Well there's your problem. :P Anyone that pays full MSRP on a GM vehicle isn't really dealing with a full deck anyway.

I'll bet that you'll be able to bargain a better price on a Regal easier than an Infiniti or Acura...

cannon3

Lets bring VW into this thread. The new 2011 Jetta is going to be larger and may compete now with the larger sedans. Do you like the styling? Pricing is supposed to be very competitive. VW has very ambitious goals here in the U.S. over the next 5-10 years. What do you think? is the new Jetta good start for VW?

tlong

Lets bring VW into this thread. The new 2011 Jetta is going to be larger and may compete now with the larger sedans. Do you like the styling? Pricing is supposed to be very competitive. VW has very ambitious goals here in the U.S. over the next 5-10 years. What do you think? is the new Jetta good start for VW?

VW's uniqueness was germanic vehicles that drove great. They are now trying to become Toyota -- bigger, blander, cheaper. Why buy the new VW when I can get a Toyota and it is actually reliable?

VW is scr*wing themselves IMHO.

tenpin288

VW is scr*wing themselves IMHO.

Seems like some others feel that way too...

A Mediocre Jetta

m6user

The G25 is a radial game-changer, though

I'm sure you meant radical above. I don't think it's a game changer at all. In fact, in less they discount it heavily from the present MSRP it is way too close the G37. Now if it got better MPG it might be different but you can't get NAV or other premium upgrades. It's really a joke at just a couple of thou less than the G37. Now the G37 is a great bargain at the prices they are getting and what you get for those prices.

I own an Infiniti and love it so I don't have to go drive one to notice the difference. I said the Regal was kind of in-between and that's exactly what I meant. It sits in between the average price sedans we talk about here and the Infiniti and other luxury brands. So of course I would notice a difference. Buick is attempting(key word) to compete in both classes and, like I also said, I don't know if they will be successful. Personally, I think they should go after one market or the other but that's just me.

A decked out Civic will be priced higher than the base Accord so does than mean they are in the same segment? If we looked at things that way we would have just one great big huge segment with decked out Civics, modest midsize sedans and base luxury cars all in the same segment because their extreme prices overlap. That would be stupid.

And please, before it starts, let's not get into "the best deal is a two year old Beemer cause that is also priced within this general area". We've already been there and done that.

tlong

Thanks tenpin, that's a good article. Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

stephen987

Nobody who buys a Regal wants a stripped-down rental, either.

The Regal CXL is by no stretch of the imagination a "stripped out rental." Its equipment level is comparable to that of the Accord EXL, which has virtually the same MSRP, $28k.

Do some homework.

acdii

I have a 2010 Fusion Sport, my coworker has a Regal, she paid more and got less. Basically same size car inside and out, but I cant see paying more for less. A fully optioned Fusion Hybrid has more for less than the Regal does and gets 40MPG.

dash5

I own a 2001 Jetta now, dont like the new styling at all. I just dont get what they're going for. Reviews have been harsh too.

dash5

I'm in between both of you on the G25. To me it's exactly what it's supposed to be, a BMW 328 fighter. Most people who buy a 3 series get the 328. Infiniti was conceding that market and just going for the 335 buyers. Now they are competing and offering the G25 for less (thousands less). I think it's significantly cheaper than a comparably equipped G37.

As far as radical game changer though, nah.

plekto

Cars Direct is quoting a base price of $29,495 for the Regal with the turbo.
- No sunroof
- No Side airbags
- No Audio worth mentioning
- No Nav, no options at all.
If you add so much as a sunroof or side airbags, it's at $32K instantly.

I get $31,959 with option TO5 (which I'd consider the bare minimum to bring it to the level of the competition's base models) and front license plate bracket(required almost everywhere and the scumbags make you PAY for it?)

G25: $32,638 for the Journey model with sunroof. That's it/loaded - pretty much no other options are available. Note: none of these cars have NAV to keep it fair, since GM charges 2x what the other two do for the feature.

TSX: 32,099 Note - this is for the 3.5 V6. Again, every option except for NAV to keep it fair. (GM charges almost 3100 for NAV while the TSX is closer to $1600, which makes it even more silly)

So $32K for a Regal, $32K for a G25, or $32K for the TSX. Unless you're a GM loyalist, you'll cross shop these three almost guaranteed. Sure, you might be able to get a discount next *fall* on the Regal, but by then, the market will have simply moved on. The non-turbo is so massively disappointing to most people that they just buy an Accord EX with the 4 cylinder engine instead.

Three vehicles with the same price, four doors, and leather/etc. It's going to be a cold winter in Detroit.

thegraduate

I thought of the G37 as the 335i for people who didn't want to spend $50k on a subcompact BMW. 300+ hp for 328i prices.

jeffyscott

"your options are stripped out rental or properly optioned at 30-32K."

"Properly optioned" depends on the buyer. I doubt I would want all that fluff that puts the price up over $30K. The base Regal already probably has all I would want and more, but requires at least one thing that makes it unacceptable to me...leather seating. At a selling price of $26,170 (from truecar or overstock) it would at least be in my ballpark in that regard.

stickguy

Just out of curiousity, I compared the Cruze dimensions to some cars I used to have. And it confirmed, to me, that this is really a "mid sizer", at least by my standards!

One of my favorite cars that I owned was a 1991 Mazda 626. At the time, a mid size car, sompeting with camry, accord, etc. And plenty roomy, big trunk, and suitable for family duty.

It was also 3" shorter than a Cruze (179 vs. 182) And of course wasy lighter at 2600 #s. And somehow, it performed just fine with a scarey low HP total of 110. Cruze also has almost exactly the same trunk and gas tank volume.

a 1991 Accord was only about 184" long, so just slightly bigger.

Now that Accords are all bloated up (wide bodies, up over 190"s), they should be (and in some cases by EPA volume standards are) considered full size! And stuff like a Cruze and Jetta (almost exactly the same dimensions) as a mid size family car.

And if my perspective on full vs. mid size seem off for an American, back in the late 60s/early 70s my family (with 3 kids) car (and our only car) was a 1969 Volvo, not an LTD!

jeffyscott

I believe the 626 was, like the similar Contour was considered to be a compact...a larger compact, kind of like the Jetta, a larger compact with a large truck. The other side of that compact/midsize line was the prior version of the Mazda6...a small midsize.

These compact/midsize bordeline cars seem to be the ones that appeal to me and my wife. I had a Contour before my Mazda6 and my wife has a Jetta.

To me one thing that makes a car mid size is room for three sets of adult hips in the back seat. At a minimum standard of 18 inches per set of hips, this translates to 54 inches of rear hip room to meet that part of my personal definition . My 2007 Mazda6 just makes it at 54.1".

m6user

It certainly can be looked both ways. My take is that Infiniti had to be the super deal to combat the long reputation of BMW as the one to beat in sport sedans. They brought the G35, now G37, to beat the BMW "32." I don't think they were shooting for the 335 buyers.

I also believe that for Infiniti to have a legitmate 328 fighter in the G25 it has to be a another super deal. More HP/torque, better MPG for less money. If they are close in price and they are very close the BMW is going to win because of reputation, lots more low rev torque and more hp. They are similar in size, actually the BMW is wider but the G25 is much longer.

It just seems to me that Infiniti is more intent on getting potential customers into an Infiniti at a lower price point than really trying to beat the 328 at it's own game.

However, we should take this conversation back to the cars on the right. We could continue this discussion on the G25 thread if you'd like.

plekto

- The Turbo or a V6 is a must for this segment. 180hp and a nearly 4000 lb car (wet weight) is horrendously unimpressive. Absolutely non negotiable in 90% of the public's minds, as sales have shown. Everyone is stalling and waiting for the turbo models to show up on the showroom floors in "the next few weeks".

- The single option package I added wasn't even $1600. It includes sunroof, side airbags, and premium audio. No nav, no handling upgrades, no tires, and no frills. Just the basics. I'm certainly not getting a car without side airbags when the competition has them included just to save $400 or so. And they offer a sun/moon roof as standard(or it's ordered on every last car for sale in most cities), so that has to be added for a fair comparison. And of course, better speakers and a 6 CD changer to compete with their standard audio kit.

- That price includes a nearly $800 delivery charge as well.

- GM has nav and all the sport suspension goodies and so on in a $5600 option pack if you want. Sane people wont pay that, though. It never ceases to amaze me how GM always makes you pay for better handling instead of making that default. And it always comes in the most expensive trim/package.

Truecar backs me up on this as well. Average price for the Regal Turbo is coming in at $31,715. $32,316 for the TSX, and $32,375 for the G25. Almost the exact same price range (Cars Direct has a $697 spread and Truecar has a $690 one)

- If we're comparing base models we have a huge problem as well. The TSX with the 4 cylinder engine is $27,526. Yet it comes with sunroof, a 6 CD changer, side airbags, fog lamps, and so on. GM once again failed to listen to anyone online or elsewhere when it came to getting rid of options and just pricing the car as-is in its best couple of trims. Buying a $25K car with $6K in options is 1980s insanity. It should be three questions: What color, What transmission, and Do you want NAV with that? Honda, Nissan, and Toyota have this down to a science, and even Mercedes and Ford are figuring it out pretty quickly. GM is still stuck in the 80s mentally.

So you're stuck - Go sportier and with the turbo and you bump into the G25. Go more basic and you get hit upside the head by the TSX.

EDIT - The reason this hits home for me is that my mother is looking for a new car. She's always been loyal to GM but now is faced with the impossible task of trying to justify anything in the 25-30K range that GM makes versus the competition. Those three are just driving her brain in circles because as much as she wants the Regal to be the best option against the competition, it just simply isn't. The gap between the TSX and the Regal is especially large. One feels like a nice family sedan with some luxury added and the other feels like a luxury car that's been shrunk down in size. It's just far more polished and refined and better thought-out from beginning to end. Buick feels like they've been taking cues from Honda and Toyota and Accura feels like it's been taking cues from Mercedes.

jeffyscott

So are the reviews praising the handling on the Regal based on driving one with that $5000 option package? The base one doesn't handle and ride like...well, a Buick, does it?

"The Turbo or a V6 is a must for this segment."

They sell the TSX in the $28-32K price range with a 4 cyl. having the same torque as the Buick (max HP is a bit higher on the TSX, but who's hitting 7000 rpm?).

I think the "gotta have it now" people would tend to be the ones that want the Turbo, etc. Not many are thinking "I just gotta get the brand new base model of X, now!".

tlong

As these sedans have all grown, I long for a premium smaller one. The TSX is too big vs. the older model.

Jetta? Nope - now decontented and bloated.

Are there any premium 178-184" long sedans out there that aren't going to cost nearly $40K?

googonabike

Tlong, how about Suzuki Kizashi? In any trim. Except for the calipers on the hood it beats TSX (4cyl.) hands down in every department for thousands $$$ less.

backy

Check out the new G25.