Midsize Sedans 2.0

tjc78

Saw a new Sonata today. Looked like a base model. I like it, different but not too wild.

benjaminh

Yeah, I like the looks of the new Sonata too, and when it comes to value it's a great deal. My rankings just for looks in a midsize cars available for less than $30k would probably be....

1. Mazda6
2. Sonata
3. Accord
4. Optima
5. Camry

But because the lease deals push the base TLX down below 30k, you won't be surprised to hear that that one would be my favorite if it could be included.

Sandman6472

Have seen a few on the roads down here and they do look pretty sweet to be honest. Only have seen a pic of the interior and dash but there to, Hyundai did a great job. Must hand it to Hyundai and Kia, they are building attractive, economical and affordable vehicles that the public seem to love. Have driven many of their products over the years, and the majority of tem I'd have no issue owning as my personal vehicle.

nyccarguy

I dig the Camry TRD

stickguy

that seems like a good deal with the V6.

benjaminh

Alex on Auto likes the Subaru Legacy with standard AWD....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Shcr0fgm4&t=1600s

andres3

Consumer Reports really likes the new Legacy too. As well as the A4. Interestingly, Acura in general does poorly on the consumer satisfaction scoreboard, including the TLX model.

On the other hand, I hear that trick all-wheel steering thing is used on the new RS6 (as an option), so it isn't just an Acura thing anymore.

ab348

Subaru plays to CR's reader base the way Volvos and Saabs used to back in the '60s and '70s.

suydam

I’m not so sure about that. Subaru has never been known for fuel efficiency, a concern of many CR readers.

andres3

suydam said:

I’m not so sure about that. Subaru has never been known for fuel efficiency, a concern of many CR readers.

It's the relatively cushy ride, the safety (especially having all the latest nannies), and reliability that makes Subaru score well with CR. They get a slight pass on fuel efficiency since they are all AWD; though the fuel economy isn't helping their scores.

Take the Audi TT. It scores very high DESPITE being criticized for not having the latest safety nannies (which it gets penalized for in the score). If you ask me, a sport oriented car doesn't need all the safety nannies, but that's CR for ya.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

Consumer Reports really likes the new Legacy too. As well as the A4. Interestingly, Acura in general does poorly on the consumer satisfaction scoreboard, including the TLX model.

On the other hand, I hear that trick all-wheel steering thing is used on the new RS6 (as an option), so it isn't just an Acura thing anymore.

I think many consumers, like many car reviewers, dislike and are confused by the TLX's 2-screen system for audio/navi/AndroidAuto, etc. It does take some getting used to, but overall I like it better than my wife's touchscreen on her CR-V. The CR-V is much easier to use at first, but over time it has some drawbacks. For instance, on the TLX I can have audio on the lower screen while my AndroidAuto Google map is above, showing both at the same time. On the CR-V's one screen you get to choose one or the other.

But yeah, hate for the TLX system often runs high, even though I think it's misguided.

In terms of 4-wheel steering, I imagine the Audi you mention costs over $70,000 with that option. I'm sure it's awesome, but I don't think I'll ever be able to afford something like that, and so it's nice to have this useful and exotic technology standard on the Acura, and at a price more people can afford.

benjaminh

suydam said:

I’m not so sure about that. Subaru has never been known for fuel efficiency, a concern of many CR readers.

The current AWD Subaru Legacy gets higher combined epa mpg (30) than the Mazda6 (29).

andres3

benjaminh said:

andres3 said:

Consumer Reports really likes the new Legacy too. As well as the A4. Interestingly, Acura in general does poorly on the consumer satisfaction scoreboard, including the TLX model.

On the other hand, I hear that trick all-wheel steering thing is used on the new RS6 (as an option), so it isn't just an Acura thing anymore.

I think many consumers, like many car reviewers, dislike and are confused by the TLX's 2-screen system for audio/navi/AndroidAuto, etc. It does take some getting used to, but overall I like it better than my wife's touchscreen on her CR-V. The CR-V is much easier to use at first, but over time it has some drawbacks. For instance, on the TLX I can have audio on the lower screen while my AndroidAuto Google map is above, showing both at the same time. On the CR-V's one screen you get to choose one or the other.

But yeah, hate for the TLX system often runs high, even though I think it's misguided.

In terms of 4-wheel steering, I imagine the Audi you mention costs over $70,000 with that option. I'm sure it's awesome, but I don't think I'll ever be able to afford something like that, and so it's nice to have this useful and exotic technology standard on the Acura, and at a price more people can afford.

Hopefully the technology trickles down to other models. You are one of the few that raved about the feature, and it looks like Acura was ahead of the curve in this regard if other automakers are now adopting it.

That's a good thing for Acura, they need more of that. It is like Audi coming out with a $30,000 A3 with a dual clutch in 2006. Way ahead of the curve, and it had direct injection with a turbo too.

In the 90's, those VTEC engines were a marvel of power and efficiency.

explorerx4

My vehicles can display Nav, Phone and Audio on the same screen at the same time.

ab348

suydam said:

I’m not so sure about that. Subaru has never been known for fuel efficiency, a concern of many CR readers.

Neither were Volvo or Saab back in the day. It has nothing to do with that. It is an self-image/lifestyle matter.

tjc78

explorerx4 said:

My vehicles can display Nav, Phone and Audio on the same screen at the same time.

I like having the Nav between the gauges and then that frees up the center screen for audio, etc

The Enclave can't do that, but the center screen can show both Nav and audio in several different configuartions.

andres3

ab348 said:

suydam said:

I’m not so sure about that. Subaru has never been known for fuel efficiency, a concern of many CR readers.

Neither were Volvo or Saab back in the day. It has nothing to do with that. It is an self-image/lifestyle matter.

We're Volvo's or Saab's ever reliable? I know since Ford and GM (former and latter respectively) got involved with them; I can't recall a year where they did very well in the reliability rankings. I could be wrong.

stickguy

funny thing though, it seems that the new Chinese owners have been good for quality and reliability. Lots of money helped.

benjaminh

Yeah. The new Volvos are probably the best that have ever been made.

roadburner

I really liked my wife's 1991 740 Turbo- a real Q-Ship that humiliated more than a few contemporary V8s at the Stoplight Grand Prix. Volvo lost me almost completely when they went to FWD and FWD based AWD. Kissing up to the Safety [non-permissible content removed] with the ridiculous 112 mph speed governor ensured I will never consider one.

tjc78

Kissing up to the Safety [non-permissible content removed] with the ridiculous 112 mph speed governor ensured I will never consider one.

Pretty sure my car is not limited to 112. Not that I would have any hard evidence or experience with that.

tjc78

tjc78

151 MPH

tjc78

EDIT... the speed limiter doesn't take effect until MY 2021

andres3

tjc78 said:

EDIT... the speed limiter doesn't take effect until MY 2021

That's a good sales pitch, buy NOW! The future is bleak! Pretty sure my Neon could break 112 MPH though I'm not sure I ever tested that.

tjc78

andres3 said:

tjc78 said:

EDIT... the speed limiter doesn't take effect until MY 2021

That's a good sales pitch, buy NOW! The future is bleak! Pretty sure my Neon could break 112 MPH though I'm not sure I ever tested that.

My stepdads 95 was governed at 107. So I was told.

On another note. Saw another new Sonata. I really like it. If sedans actually sold it would be a hit.

andres3

tjc78 said:

andres3 said:

tjc78 said:

EDIT... the speed limiter doesn't take effect until MY 2021

That's a good sales pitch, buy NOW! The future is bleak! Pretty sure my Neon could break 112 MPH though I'm not sure I ever tested that.

My stepdads 95 was governed at 107. So I was told.

On another note. Saw another new Sonata. I really like it. If sedans actually sold it would be a hit.

Are they still offering a high horsepower Sonata? I think I noticed on the Optima it appears they are only offering the weak and weaker engine options, unless I read a marketing thing that was misleading.

nyccarguy

andres3 said:

tjc78 said:

andres3 said:

tjc78 said:

EDIT... the speed limiter doesn't take effect until MY 2021

That's a good sales pitch, buy NOW! The future is bleak! Pretty sure my Neon could break 112 MPH though I'm not sure I ever tested that.

My stepdads 95 was governed at 107. So I was told.

On another note. Saw another new Sonata. I really like it. If sedans actually sold it would be a hit.

Are they still offering a high horsepower Sonata? I think I noticed on the Optima it appears they are only offering the weak and weaker engine options, unless I read a marketing thing that was misleading.

Doesn't matter. Even if they came out with a car in every class that crushes the benchmark, I'm pretty sure you have been black balled from all Hyundai/Kia dealerships at this point.

benjaminh

Edmunds compares the Accord with the new Sonata....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Jnw576zW0

explorerx4

Taking my Lincoln on its' first road trip next Thursday.
Had it about 5 months and only have put on about 2500 miles.

ab348

That video was nicely done. The presenters are quite good, especially Elana. They much preferred the Accord, no surprise really, but it’s surprising how much quicker it is and how much better it rides.

stickguy

quicker makes sense since it is the 2.0t motor. which costs more. Pretty close if you get the 1.5t engine. The ride difference did surprise me. But in the end, both are good cars with lots of features, and it is going to be personal opinion.

would also be interesting to see how the Camry would have fared in this comparison.

benjaminh

The wheels and tires on an TLX base model compared with an Accord EXL....

stickguy

I saw a TLX PMC version today in the showroom (the "hand built" one). Gorgeous red paint on that one. They had an NSX next to it in the same color. that was a cool car. Should have asked for a test drive.

benjaminh

Here's a small but perhaps interesting factoid about the tires Honda has put on the Accord for the last 25 years or so. Back in the 1990s Honda started putting "V" rated tires on the Accord. As probably all of you know, V-rated tires are designed to hold up at very high speeds, even up to 140+ mph. This is strange, because the Accord—like almost all other cars —is electronically limited so that it can't go over c. 125 mph. Plus it's a family sedan, and so probably 99% of people driving an Accord will never even go over 90.

https://www.ntb.com/info/a20022/what-is-a-tire-speed-rating

For the 4-cylinder models of the TLX (except for the A-spec models), in contrast, Acura uses nice Goodyear tires (as opposed to the no-doubt good but lesser known Hankook tires on the Accord), but they use the next step down in terms of speed rating—H-rated tires designed for up to 130 mph. That's plenty, because the Acura TLX like the Accord is electronically limited to 126 mph. (Only once, in an extreme passing situation, have I ever even hit 95 in my TLX. But it felt very steady and confidence inspiring, and quite capable of cruising an autobahn at 100 or more.)

Here are the stats on the Accord's tires vs the TLX:

AccordEXL: P225/50VR17 BSW All-Season Tires. TLX 2.4: P225/55HR17 BSW All-Season Tires

Slightly more comfort with the sidewall height at 55mm on the TLX compared to 50 for the Accord.

Another little factoid is that once Honda started putting "overkill" V-rated tires on the
Accord, Toyota for the Camry a few years later started to do that too....

Toyota Camry LE: P215/55VR17 BSW All-Season Tires

The Toyota tire, however, is slightly narrower, and so less of a performance tire.

But for the A-spec trim, like stickguy has, Acura puts some serious tires on the TLX....

P245/40VR19 BSW Performance All-Season Tires

Wow, that's a lot of width on a very low profile tire—and now it is V-rated. This is now a Michelin tire, which I think is a very good brand, and imho probably better than even Goodyear.

As a side note, I don't care for the aluminum wheels on the Accord, but I do like the standard Acura wheels. But the wheels on the A-spec are really good imho, with a very sleek and minimalist design.

stickguy

They are good tires. Sidewalk is same height as a 225/45, so just slightly skinnier than the accord 225/50

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Wow, that's a lot of width on a very low profile tire—and now it is V-rated. This is now a Michelin tire, which I think is a very good brand, and imho probably better than even Goodyear.

Michelin probably better than Goodyear?
I don't think there's ANY doubt.

andres3

Continental is #2 , Michelin is #1.

benjaminh

Here's a nice short review of the Michelin Pilot Sport....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZpE7XRNlro

sda

I find it curious that Honda puts Michelins on the Accord EX and Hankooks on the EXL. I thought it would be the opposite as the EXL is more expensive. Both use the same size tire.

benjaminh

For your generation of Accord I think Honda often used Michelins starting at the EX level, but with this generation I think they now use Hankooks for all levels.

benjaminh

Overall, I think this generation of Accord has been a bit of a letdown for Honda in terms of sales, especially compared to this generation of Civic. Functionally the new Accord is a solid vehicle, and continues to be part of C&D's Ten Best, but the styling is mixed imho from the front, from the side, and from the rear. The 2016-2020 Civic is a great looking car, and has been a big sales but the Accord has struggled in what admittedly is a very difficult market when it comes to the sales of sedans. Overall it might have been a mistake to veer away from the "BMW on a budget" look into a car that as C&D itself says has "large blind spots" in the back. Of course, most cars these days have that same issue.

sda

benjaminh said:

For your generation of Accord I think Honda often used Michelins starting at the EX level, but with this generation I think they now use Hankooks for all levels.

It is the 2018- present that has this configuration. When I bought my 13 EX most came with GoodYear Assurance FuelMax, which came on my car and were good tires. The EXL came with Michelins.

benjaminh

A 4-minute video about changing the spark plugs at 100k on a TLX 2.4. The original spark plugs are iridium-tipped, and they still look pretty good after all those miles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ6NbCM-N1Y

roadburner

I replaced the plugs on the Mini at 114k miles after I realized that the PO hadn't changed them at 100k. It was a dead easy 30 minute job, and-no surprise-it cured an intermittent misfire issue.

Sandman6472

I have Goodyear Eagle GT's on my VW Golf and like them, a lot. A nice tread pattern and they drive so much better than the Conti's that came on it. I was going to go with their Assurance fuel saver tire but the sales guy has a GTI and has the GT's on his and loves them. So I took his word and put them on also. Have had them on since mid September and no issues what so ever. Unfortunately, my commute went from 58 miles/days that I work to 6.6/day, a big difference, and my total weekly driving is only about 50 miles if I'm lucky. But, super happy with my Goodyear GT's!

stickguy

that was pretty easy. much easier than dealing with the rear bank of a transverse V6! Makes me question why the the dealer wants to charge $300 for it. Even though the plugs are probably $25 each.

Another good reason to buy a 4 cyl! Especially a non-turbo. Easier to get to everything.

benjaminh

Looks like the NGK laser iridium spark plugs are somewhere around $10 each or so....

https://www.pepboys.com/search/?text=ngk+laser+iridium

Apparently even Honda uses these top of the line spark plugs. Here's a 2-minute video of a guy saying he's saving money by using $3 platinum spark plugs instead of the laser iridium ones in his CR-V....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnW60nmMLu4

stickguy

if they are $10 at Pep Boys or Amazon, I bet they are $20-25 at the dealer service department.

benjaminh

Apparently some Toyotas (and no doubt other cars) also use these laser iridium sparks. This 3-minute video shows some more of these after 100k seemingly in fairly good shape. In the comments section of this video someone with a Prius says he has been running on the same set of laser iridium spark plugs for 190,000 miles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anjiSFjOGAU