Engine Oil--A slippery subject

igloomaster

I just bought a new 1999 Honda Civic CX.
I asked the dealership if I should flush out the 'new' oil BEFORE the recommended change at 3750 miles. They said NO. I thought that NEW cars had special NEW oils that needed to be changed after about 1,000 miles, to flush out any new metal bits from the engine. What's up?

hoho

Is it worth it to change it? Just the peace of mind it may give you is probally worth it. I used to think that I should change the fluids right away because I wasn't sure of what was in there. I do change my fluids on a regular basis for all my cars. But mostly it is for peace of mind more than any other reason.

As for "is it required"? For me I say "who cares" I have more important things to worry about than that. If it comes to a discussion point, than I say "if I think it needs changing than I will change it".

dmk

Many co. nowdays say to keep their "break in" oil for at least 3,000 mi. if not more. Who knows these days!
Just change it before 7,500 miles!

DMK

igloomaster

Thanks for the tips! I'll just stick to 3,000 mile intervals for my changes; the dealership uses Castrol, and charges around $21 for a change. I can't fit underneath the car - or I'd do it myself like I do with my truck. I fear ramps and jack stands.....
Thanks again

kewldude

This is THE method:

1. Initial oil should be whatever the factory puts in. A non-detergent is best. Detergents are used to keep the engine "clean" and that is not necessary with a new engine.

2. Change the "break in" oil at 250-500 miles. The more city miles the sooner.

3. Refill with the recommended oil type. The recommended oil type is best for the type of wear the engine will be encountering. A small hard working engine requires a different type of oil than a large highway engine. A synthetic IS NOT
a good idea at this point because the reason for the first oil change is to get rid of the small deposits created by wear and the machining processes which cleaning was not able to remove.

4. The thinner the oil the better. Thick oil does not flow as well, and hence causes greater hydraulic friction at wear points, and is more difficult to pump. This is power robbing and performance degrading, and for what? Hydraulic
friction causes no wear, which is the purpose of lubrication. Better hydraulic friction than metal on metal, such as bearing surfaces.

5. Synthetic lubricants prevent wear altogether. This includes the ability for the rings to polish the cylinder walls. The result will be excessive blow by the rings, thus contaminating the oil sooner. Kind of like shooting yourself in the
foot.

6. Use a good filter. The latest offerings from Purolator are good. I have seen cutaways of Fram filters, and they don't as much filter media as the Purolator, which, by becoming "full" sooner causes greater work to filter. Most engines
have a pressure regulator which discontinue filtering when filter contamination creates excessive energy to pump. To save the oil pump from premature failure, and allows it to return to normal when filtering is possible.

7. The most important factors to remember about engine oil is monitoring. It may say to change it every 7500 miles, but if takes years of short city driving trips to make that many miles, the engine will certainly suffer. The best thing
to do is to make time to change the oil when its color changes from a amber color to brownish black. It does not need changing in this condition, but setting aside a time to do it and getting supplies at hand. When the color
approaches a dark amber with black, it is time to change. The black is micro fine contaminants which will produce sludge in time. Removing them is to remove the sludge creating culprit.

Remember: unless the engine is a short lived high performance number, or one which requires a great deal of maintenance due to performance, a standard oil is good. Oil does not wear out, it becomes dirty or burnt.

igloomaster

I asked the dealer about "break-in" oil in my new 99 Civic. He said they don't use break-in oil, just a little thicker grade, and that I didn't have to change it until the car had 3750 miles.
I figure I'll stick with 3,000 intervals, but do you think the dealer is not speaking the truth about the break-in oil? Thanks.

anne4

I bought a 99 Honda Odyssey and was dying to change the oil and filter at 250-500 miles, thinking I would be doing the engine a big favor. I called technical service support at American Honda and asked if this was the right thing to do. The engineer told me in the strongest possible terms that I should NOT change the oil until at least 3750 miles. Honda does ship their cars with breakin oil. He told me that if I wanted the engine to break in properly and last a long time, I should wait to change the oil. So I waited until 3750 for the first oil & filter change. At 7500 miles I switched to Mobil 1 synthetic. It's debateable whether synthetic is really a good idea in the climate I live in (Seattle). Synthetic is a no-brainer in a really hot (like Phoenix) or really cold (like Alaska) climate. In a temperate climate like Seattle, it may be a waste of money. But I want this engine to last a long time, so I went with synthetic anyway. Change both oil and Honda filter at 5000 miles, even tho the manual says to change at 7500 miles.

By the way, there's a website that compares the construction of a number of oil filters like Fram, Purolator, Wix, etc. Very interesting. Makes one want to avoid Fram like the plague. (I use Honda's filters exclusively.) Can't remember the URL. Try doing a search including the word "Mopar" and "oil filters", and you'll probably find it. Or do a search in this forum topic. I think someone posted the URL some messages ago.

igloomaster

thanks.


do you happen to have the # for Honda tech?

thank you again!

igloomaster

I found this on the Honda website:

Q & A

Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?

Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.

American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.

dhoff

The oil filter site was taken down due to
threat of a lawsuit, but has been put back up with
a lot of the "opinionated commentary" removed. For what it's worth, here's a link to the site:

http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html#fram

Very interesting stuff, even without the commentary.

Dave

anne4

I don't still have the phone #. Go to the Honda website and find the number for your regional Honda office. They're usually much more helpful than the national office. They may not let you talk directly to a tech; sometimes they do, but mostly they don't. But the one here in the Northwest (Portland) has VERY helpful customer service reps who will get the info for you and call you back. I also used them when i needed detailed wiring diagrams for the stereo and car electrical systems. They also asked detailed technical questions for me of the mfg that made the stereo head unit (Clarion). I needed this info when I stalled new speakers and amps. I was very surprised at how helpful the Honda reps were.

hoho

Are Chryslers shipped with this breakin oil?

mwikle

Post # 478 refers to # 468 "THE Method" by "kewldude"

hoho

Was your last post (479) supposed to be an answer for my question in #477?
Rick

mwikle

Not certain where #478 went. Guess I cannot operate a web browser...arrgh!

Anyway it was SUPPOSED to be relative to post #468 "THE Method" by "kewldude":

My experience indicates much of this information is, while perhaps well-intentioned, not entirely accurate. I do not have the time to fully address each item now, but this post is rather strongly worded and I feel compelled to chime in with a "proceed cautiously" admonition for much of the advice based on my knowledge.

See some of my previous posts for some info on these subjects with a slightly different perspective. I would note that item #6 is pretty much accurate.

igloomaster

...post 472 contradicts post 468 in some ways too...

cpallen

I have a 95 Infiniti G20T which has had oil changes religiously at 3000 mile intervals since new. It has 50K miles on it now, and at the last dealer service the mech/service writer noted my oil was "sludgey" and recommended a $190 "power flushing" of the engine. I passed (suspicious) and they said my engine warranty might not be honored if I ignored their recommendations. They couldn't satisfactorily explain why the oil was sludgy to begin with. My main use of the car is commuting to work (25 mi freeway). Does anyone have any comments or opinions about this flushing procedure?
Thanks.

igloomaster

It sounds like absolute B.S. to me. Next time you need an oil change, I would go to a different dealer; explain that you had some problems with the other guys and you want to give a different dealership a fair shot. Don't tell them what the other dealership said; let them find it on their own if it truly exists. My take is that they will want to attract you as a customer, so at least on your first visit - they might make an attempt to be somewhat honest.

guitarzan

This is strange, must be a new fad. Click and Clack had a customer report the same thing. That he changes his oil regularly, and the dealer wanted to charge him a lot of money for a flush.

guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference

markbuck

Agree with Igloo - they are just trying to take you for some money. Just tell 'em thanks, but you don't believe in this type of stuff. Probably won't bug you again if you deal with the same folks.

With your driving of 25miles to work on the freeway, that motor should last a good 200,000 miles at least.

markbuck

If you really wanna spend some money, ask the service writer to have the oil analyzed and reported back to you. Suspect you are changing the oil way before it is worn out and 'sludgey'....

ruking1

#483
It is good news and bad news.

The easiest way to see the extent, is to pull the valve covers or get a swab and swab around the inside of the interior of the engine. The oil analysis will certainly give a hint at residuals.
First and foremost the ash content % in conventional oils is much higher than synthetic oils, which is one reason why just more frequent oil changes will not necessarily solve the problem.

At 135k I had asked my dealer for a Borsch system flush, similar to what you had mention. Their action was to use a lower level flush and not only did they not charge me for it, they told me that there was very very little sludge. Before they did the flush, I asked if it would increase performance and they answered it was hit or miss.(By the way the performance increase was noticeable to me) Whether or not it would make a difference in your case is a bit unknown from what you wrote. I think also that is is probably a revenue booster based on half truth or truths.

div2

ruking1 is dead right; you can't truly kow what shape your oil is in without a chemical analysis. Evaluating oil any other way is an educated guess at the very most. A flush is beneficial in some cases, but I betcha that dealer pushes the flush job at certain mileage intervals with no regard for the driving habits or oil change history of the vehicle in question. Look in the jobber mags-the flush machine companies emphasize the high profit angle in the majority of their ads.

cpallen

Thank you all for your input. I am not too concerned with increasing performance, only preserving longevity so I think I'll take igloomaster's suggestion and go to another dealer. Of course, I know I'm changing it too soon also, but it's years of habit and the rationalization that you really CAN"T change oil to much. Those little stickers on the windshield are great guilt trip/marketing tools!

spokane

Ruking1 and Div2, you seem quite familiar with oil system flushing; what is used as the flushing agent and how is it done? Do they simply fill the crankcase or is it a "pressure wash" procedure done with the valve covers and oil pan removed? Is the engine run so that its oil pump flushes the bearings with this flushing agent? I have always been skeptical of anything in the crankcase that has poorer lube characteristics that the specified oil but am eager to know what engine-flush technology is now being used. Thanks, any details will be appreciated.

jwolff

Regarding the 3k oil change. Just change to a quality synthetic oil like Mobil One or Castrol Syntec and extend the drain interval to 5k or 7500mi. I think this would be most beneficial- ie better protection and better economics. Just a suggestion.

ruking1

#491,492
The Borsch system is a hot solvent wash piped under pressure. So in that sense, it is a closed/return system. The dealer can cite the heated solvent used and at what temp.`

In my own case, the crankcase system was used after the dealer determined that the Borsch system was overkill. (No charge vs $140?)
For me to ask for it, was really a belt and suspenders procedure on my part. They did tell me that there was VERY VERY little sludge, and actually could have gone without what they did.
I am actually shooting for 250-300k on this inline 6 cylinder engine. (The vehicle is 13 yrs old.)

In another case, I just recently had a 60k major tune (30k interval) (I change synthetic oil every 15k) They had the valve covers off to check the valve adjustments, and I asked if there was any abnormalities/and or sludge, they said absolutely NONE, and said there was abnormally low wear, based on like vehicles. While they didn't say it, it was a backhanded reference to the 15k oil change doing the job that it was intended to do.

div2

The Bilstein flush system pumps in a light lubricating oil after the flush to coat the friction surfaces prior to adding the fresh oil. I change the synthetic oil in my vehicles at 6K to 9K intervals and the areas under the valve covers are clean as new.

rondori

Could someone tell me after how many miles can I safely switch a 1.8L 16v dohc engine from "dino juice" to synthetic. I have nearly 5000 miles on it now and would like to run full synthetic this winter, but I want to make sure the engine is properly broken in before I do.

Any experts out there?

Also - Mobil 1 regular v.s. tri-synthetic, what's the difference?

Thanks,

-cr

musclecarman

Most dealers say that synthetic can be used after 4,000 miles (although I find it odd that new corvettes supposedly have synthetic in them from the factory).

div2

I think that cars designed for synthetic from the get-go have different honing patterns and cylinder/piston clearances-the reason being that synthetic oil delays the ring seating process in an engine designed to be broken in on conventional oil. For example, BMW advised waiting until the first oil service to switch to synthetic for that very reason-excessive oil usage until the rings seated. Now a proprietary BMW synthetic is the factory fill and there are no problems.

donald41

I have been using synthetic oil for quite a few years. For me it was a painful process converting from dino-oil. Now that I have made the change my fears are gone. I change my oil every 12k with a 6k filter and oil top off. It may seem scary but I have not had any mechanical problems. No oil use or leal at all. 1993 Astro. Bought at 48k now 84.6k and still running strong. I read quite a few articles on synthetics till I was comfortable. I have not opened up the engine HHAA but I believe it be clean as post #493 has stated. Great site. Great reading. Thanks Edmunds.

rickroz

I've been using valvoline 5w30 in my vehicle. Went to NAPA Parts to get more today and the napa guy told my that their Napa Oil is the same as Valvoline. The labels on the back have the same specs and they are made by the same company. Am I wasting about $.80 / qt buying valvoline oil?

blugill

#499: Sometimes. Most companines like NAPA contract out to the best price they can get that meets their specks. Thus if valvoline has low sales one month they will underbid the contract (but still make money) to keep the plant busy, and other months someone else will.

In some cases this affects only the BASE stock used (ie dino juice from the middle east vs TX vs alaska...) and Napa or whoever supplies the additives, in other cases it is pure whatever brand but with a different sticker on the front. There are probably combinations of the above too.

The old guys often know what they are talking about while the young ones will lie as they fell like it. (But I've known old guys to spout information that was true 20 years ago but isn't now) caviet emptor.

ruking1

#499
For me the temptation would be to buy on price. I have standardized on getting Mobil One, for it happens to be one of the middle to lower priced ones. I have seen Pennsoil Performax? synthetic for $1 cheaper, and would have bought it, but they didn't have the vis weight I wanted. While it doesn't seem like much, the savings in my case can buy 1 to 3 new oil filters.

rhinnc

Just picked up 25 quarts of Mobil 1 for 14.96 per 5 quart jug. My local Wal-Mart did not have it in stock a couple of weeks ago. I talked to the service manager in the Wal-Mart auto center and he now has it stocked.

So far this is the cheapest I have found it.

clintonjohn

three bucks a quart is pretty good for mobil 1-think i ususally see it for around 4. re:cheaper oil. I typically go with price-wal mart's tech 2000 for around .80/quart and have 165k on my '92 geo tracker. I thought the important thing to look at is the API service rating and make sure it is current with your car.

rondori

I just bought 8 quarts of Exxon Synthetic (not a blend)for $2.99/qt. Does anyone know anything about the quality of this oil? I usually use Mobil 1 when I use synthetic.

Thanks,

-cr

tonewheel

Gang...I posed this question directly to Mobil last spring, also inquiring about their new 0-30W syn oil. I posted their response at that time, but FYI, here it is again. Take it for what it's worth:

"Dear Mr. -----,

You can start using Mobil 1 in new vehicles at any time. In fact, Mobil 1 is the factory fill in Corvette LS1, LT-1 and LT-5 engines. And Mobil and Porsche just announced a new partnership that will also have all Porsche cars manufactured at the Zuffenhausen plant lubricated with Mobil 1. One of the myths that persists about Mobil 1 is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. Current engine
manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As the decisions by the engineers who design the Corvette and Porsche engines indicate, Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive the car off the show room floor.

The “30” designation identifies that all three grades (0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30) will exhibit the same oil viscosity at normal engine operating
temperatures. The “W” designation identifies the low temperature viscosity. A smaller number indicates an ability to flow at lower temperatures. In summary, Mobil 1 0W-30 will provide the correct viscosity protection at normal engine operating temperatures, and BETTER
protection at low temperature extremes for any vehicle that calls for a 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil.

If you have any additional questions, you may contact us at our E-mail address: lubes@ffx.mobil.com or by phone at 1-800-ASKMOBIL."

magik3

I've read the previous posts (all 505 at last count), and found some partial answers to my questions (listed below), but nothing definite. Any clarification or new advice would be greatly appreciated...

I am a new 2000 Mustang owner. Its a V6/Auto with just over 1000 miles, 99% highway. I plan to do the first oil change (myself) at 1500, but need to know:
The manuf. recommends 5W-30 oil. Is it okay to use 10W-30 oil? Will it void warranty or cause other problems?

I know I'm going to use the non-synth oil, but I'm concerned about going against the manuf. recommendation.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance...

magik3

I've read the previous posts (all 505 at last count), and found some partial answers to my questions (listed below), but nothing definite. Any clarification or new advice would be greatly appreciated...

I am a new 2000 Mustang owner. Its a V6/Auto with just over 1000 miles, 99% highway. I plan to do the first oil change (myself) at 1500, but need to know:
The manuf. recommends 5W-30 oil. Is it okay to use 10W-30 oil? Will it void warranty or cause other problems?

I know I'm going to use the non-synth oil, but I'm concerned about going against the manuf. recommendation.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance...

magik3

Re: Oil change advice needed

Sorry for the duplicate post (hit the reload button by mistake)...

div2

I doubt that 10W-30 would hurt anything, but why not use 5W-30? I've used it for over 122,000 miles in my 93 Pathfinder with no ill effects. Today's engines don't need the thicker oils of yesteryear. Use a brand name 5W-30 and you will be fine.

vac23

Using 10w-30 would not void your warranty. In a way oil is oil. If you live in a warmer climate such as florida I would suggest using the 10w-30 if you're in a cooler climate such I am I suggest using 5w-30. I use it during the winter time and switch to the thick one during the summer. I also change my own oil and use Mobil 1 syn. oil. But bottom line doesn't matter if you use 5w or 10w it doesn't void your warranty. Just use a good quality brand of oil-you're engine will thank you. Hope this helps.

tonewheel

Check your owners manual. While the recommended oil for most driving and climates is 5W-30, there should be a chart that indicates other viscosities that are also acceptable at different ambient temperatures. Personally, I would use the 5W-30. That will provide all the protection you need.

ruking1

#511
Ditto on RTFM. I do use the Mobil 1 in 5-30W and will switch to 0-30W on the next change.

div2

I just picked up the 5W-40 BMW Synthetic for $2.80/qt (3.50 less my BMW CCA discount). The oil is a proprietary blend manufactured by Valvoline to BMW's own specs. Looks like this would be a good deal for any one who wants to use a synthetic- assuming it meets your car's viscosity requirements.

ruking1

#513

That is the cheapest I that I have heard. (non bulk)

magik3

Thanks for all who responded to my request for advice on 5W vs 10W oil. I think I'll be staying with the 5W natural oil, with frequent oil changes.

Thanks again

clintonjohn

re: 5/30 vs 10/30: I agree that some of your choice depends on where you live. Here in chicago, i go 10/30 in summer and 5/30 in winter. 5/30 will flow easier in winter and lube engine faster. many times esp. in winter, i'll also mix 1-2 quarts synthetic with regular oil just for added peace of mind. 165000 miles on my geo tracker with no major complaints. also change oil religously every 3-4k miles. i, though, don't necessarily go with name brand-usu. use wal mart tech 2000, except in winter when i buy a couple quarts of name brand synthetic.