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Engine Oil--A slippery subject
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To add to what this post has said, the syn product has a very low ash content. (ash is the thing that causes sludge) Conv oil has high ash content. (which is one reason why you want to change the conv oil much more frequently.)
Synthetic oils DO NOT have the same chemical properties that parafin-based (conventional) oils do. Hense that synthetic name.
1. Most importantly, they DO NOT make dynamic seals swell- seals such as the rear and front main seals. Conventional seals do this, and as a result, have fewer leaks due to oil related causes. These are the two most likely places for oil leaks in vehicles. Syn oil will not make them swell to seal around the crank thus causing a major leak. Reason being that they are such "slippery" oils that they will flow out of every crevice that they can.
2. Yes, they do flow better at startup and maintain viscosity at high temps. but in comes that damn leak issue again. And besides, you're only going to change your oil @3k miles anyway right? If you do this with any oil- conventional or synthetic- you will have no problems with your oil breaking down.
3. Yes, some cars do specify synthetic oils such as GM's Corvette (the only GM vehicle that specifies this), hi-perf VW cars (Audi, Porcsche), and most BMW and Mercedes vehicles.
To be short- if your car don't specify synthetic, DO NOT USE IT!! Otherwise you will see leaks- big ones!
from what i've read in various car mags and newspaper articles, it's ok to blend your own syn/dino mix so long as they're of the same viscosity. for reasons which i don't know and weren't explained in the articles, you don't want to mix say 5w30 with 10w30. if it were me, i'd just follow the owners manual recommendations as far as what weight to use at what outside temperature. i've blended a quart of synthetic with 3 quarts of regular oil in the winter with no ill effects, but also di not notice any appreciable advantage either. just did it for the peace of mind of having some quick flowing synthetic in the engine in chicago winter.
FYI, I never leaked or burned any oil from the engine mentioned above.
unlike my buddys toyota which we did at about the same time! USE IT DO NOT DISPOSE OF IT IN AN IRRESPONSIBLE MANNER!! ALL OILS POLLUTE IF DUMPED!!
Synthetics may or may not cause leaks, it also has to do with things such as seal/block design.
If the engine is designed so that front/rear main journal seals are so that they do not have to hold back any actual oil pressure applied to them, no, you may not see leaks. But if the engine is designed in such a way that it exerts oil pressure (not just splash lubrication)on the seals, yeah, then it will leak. It also depends wether or not the car was manafactured with the highest quality parts avilable at the time.
How do I know this? These RIDICLOUS facts?
I am a retired Mechanical Engineer for GM truck and Bus, and have seen firsthand what synthetics will do to some cars&trucks. My neighbor for example, he owns a 1997 Chev Blazer w/4.3 V6 CPI.
He used Pennzoil's Performax 100% synthetic for 2.5 yrs and had amassed 25k miles. One day, he started to notice oil leaks on the carpeting in his garage. His rear main seal was starting to leak. I asked what type of oil he was using, he told me, and I recommended to him to switch to a conventional 5W30 oil. He started using Castrol 5W30 and within 250 miles, POOF! The leak magically dissapeared! Not even any residue seeps out past the bellhousing!
Folks, I know what I'm talking about and don't appreciate the cocky attitude, I'm just trying to explain a misconception about different types of oils.
Thank You,
John Dawson
just look in your owner's manual and see what the oil type, viscosity, and change intervals are.
Follow these and you probably won't have any oil realted troubles!
I have not a definite/concrete answer to your question, but I was just trying to make a point to the fact that synthetics may be the underlying cause to some unknown oil related leaks. Some people may not even know that the engine problems that they are having are due to the fact that they aren't using the right kind of oil. I also have known some people that have had cars with small ohc alumnium engines designed for lighter weight oils, such as Hondas, Toyotas, etc. but insisted upon using somwthing like a 20W50. First of all, the engine is not designed for this, needing a strong flow of oil almost instantly to keep parts lubed properly. The 20-50 can't be pumped fast enough, and over time, excessive wear occurs on parts such as cam lobes and cylinder walls ultimately causing breakdown.
One may not know the reason for the failure may be within the type of oil that they used, not just based upon a mechanical problem.
This maybe what I was trying to say moreless; knowing the proper oil for your vehicle is one of those things that you may just have to trust the engineers that designed your car and use the maintence items that they specify.
There are a lot of different types of oils be it synthetic or conventional, but as I have said, the best ones are those recommended by the manufacturer. If your hi-perf car says to use synthetic, by all means, use it! But if it just specifies plian-jane 5-or10W30 or your diesel specifies regular 15W40 that meet requirements SH, SJ, or CG, then those- at least from my personal experiences- are the ones to stick with.
You have to change your oil every 3k mile anyways, right? Why spend 3x more for something you don't really need?
Not trying to badmouth anyone, I'm just trying to share my experiences to maybe be able to help someone understand why things like this are the way they are.
1993 Nissan Pathfinder SE-Switched to Mobil 1 5W-30 in 1994 at 37K miles. Oil changed every 6-7K miles. NO LEAKS at 110K miles.
1987 BMW 535is-Switched to Mobil 1 15W-50 at @90K miles. Oil changed every 4.5K miles. NO LEAKS at 290K miles.
1995 BMW 318ti-Switched to Mobil 1 15W-50 at 4.5K miles. Oil changed every 4.5K miles. Car sees 4-6 track days per year. NO LEAKS at 44K miles.
1998 BMW 318ti-Switched to BMW 5W-40 Synthetic at 9K miles. Oil changed every 9K miles. NO LEAKS at 18.5K miles.
1984 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe-Castrol GTX 10W-40 conventional oil changed every 3.5K miles. A 120K miles, oil leaks at valve cover, rear main seal, and at oil pan.
Sure, this is just my personal experience, but don't you think that at least one of the cars using synthetic would show SOME leakage? Just my $0.02
No leaks TLC 94,96,97, Syn oil. rtfm for proper viscosity.
However, as long as you follow the specifications, and your engine doesn't show any unusual leaks (which very few do), synthetic oil is superior because it offers better protection especially at engine startup.
If most engines leaked oil or had other problems with synthetics, nobody would use them and synthetic oil wouldn't be produced for normal cars.
Also, owners' manuals would clearly and explicitly state "DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL IN THIS CAR BECAUSE IT MAY CAUSE ENGINE DAMAGE AND VOID THE WARRANTY" or some such disclaimer, like they do for oil additives.
So, I'm pretty sure that most people won't have a problem when using synthetic oil.
But, no other product has the capacity to DECREASE the usage of conventional oil by 2 to 3x than synthetic oil.
So dress up the "powerful wolf" in grandpas/grandmas clothing, and announce how good it is (not many will believe it, let alone switch) and you preserve the conventional oil for wide spread use. Some may call this devious, but I would call it marketing correctly to human nature.
What is the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 motor oil?
Chris
1. Blend of synthetic and dino.(by the way, does it matter to use cheap oil i.e. walmart tech2000 and a quart of mobil 1.
2. Synthetic oil all the way.
I live in Florida and drive many highway miles during the week (50-70 a day on weekends I take a break and do normal city driving) and am looking to change about every 4000 miles. I dont want to seem cheap, but the price can really tally up using synthetic.
Can anybody give me some friendly advice? Am I better off just using Dino?
Any info is greatly appreciated.
I prefer to use synthetic and I drive 120 miles/day (highway miles), for the better protection. But, to each his/her own.
Someone above listed this link...it's a little
dated but the basics remain the same:
http://auto.msk.ru:8101/auto/ehoilfaq.htm
Regarding GGOSSELIN the General Motors Man:
I can get Castrol/Pennzoil-Quaker State at Kmart
on sale for 99 cents on sale and Fram filters for
2 bucks when they're on sale. The 99 Dodge is too
new to discuss....the 89 Escort with 1.9L engine
(the weakest thing on the road) no leaks/no oil
consumption. Changed every 3 months regardless of
milage. Cost averages out to 20 dollars per year per car. It doesn't get any cheaper then that.
I too change my own oil and (surprise) buy my supplies @Wal-Mart. You are one of the few people out there that follow maintence schedules religiously and benefits from them. It's cheaper to change your oil than your engine. I stand with the attitude that I have because of past experiences, and just want to let somebody know that certain things just aren't worth the extra expense. Especially when you're only going to drain that thirty bucks worth of oil every 3k miles anyway. Of course, if your car calls for the good stuff, by all means, use it! Otherwise, just use what the owner's/shop manuals call for and you will be fine.
http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html
Paul
and is actually 1,500 miles overdue for an oil
change - it is scheduled (as well as the 60k
service at a private shop) for next wednesday. My
dad does not feel that Mobil 1 is worth the cost,
but I think it is...so I just wanted to gather
opinions on whether I should foot the bill for a
few quarts of Mobil 1? It's not my car, but I
drive it a lot, and given the fact that it's a
5-speed, I tend to rev it up more than once in a
while. so will the car last longer? Run cooler?
More power? Go longer between oil changes? What,
if anything, can I expect? Also, longevity is
priority number 1 in my family, and if Mobil 1
increases this substantially over a standard
conventional oil, I want to know!!
My dad is not convinced - he has talked to a few people at work (knowledgable car guys) about the use of a full synthetic...they say no, but he didn't give them the full scoop.
He didn't tell them we have a 5-speed Maxima (read: it revs, so synthetic is good here)
He probably didn't tell them I had Mobil 1 in mind, not just any synthetic.
I am going to be footing the bill for the oil, that is for sure. But he won't even let me do that! I don't know what his problem is. What can I tell him that will be convincing evidence/convincing argument?
I also told him many of you guys on here say Mobil 1 is good, but he believes the car guys at work over you. he thinks most of you are unknowledgeable and/or don't know what the hell you're talking about (i.e. what you notice is all psychological)
Please help me here! I want our Maxima to last as long as possible.
There is no substantiated proof that synthetic oil makes engines last longer.
Personal belief: We know that when it is cold outside and/or the engine is relatively cold, the oil can take a substantial amount of time to reach all the parts of the engine. We do know that a substantial amount of engine wear occurs at startup. Synthetic does get to the parts significantly faster. I started using it mainly for that reason. Hey, let's face it, these newer overhead cam engines are sophisticated machines, and who wants the cams running dry? This is why I use the oil. Better flow while cold.
During the summer? I use it anyways because of the ol' psychological thing your dad was talking about. I can tell you that when you are revving that engine near redline, a change from 5 to 10w30 will substantially reduce friction. At least I noticed that in my Integra. I could actually feel less vibration through the gas pedal! The effect on other cars, not sure, I leave it up to you to test it. I would never use thicker than that, though.
Something way more important: Get the oil changed promptly. I don't know if it matters anymore if you do 3000 or 4000 mile changes. Just don't ignore it too long.
Oh, hey, this is your dad's car? Don't spend the money. By the time the Maxima is aged and starting to lose power, make noises, etc., you'll have your own set of cool wheels. Save your money for that set of wheels.
So I guess you're right - not my car, so I won't worry about it.
On the subject of synthetic: once a car starts using synthetic oil does it have to stay that way? or synthetic and regular oil can be alternate between oil changes?
will void the warranty if it is determined that
you are using it. First of all 15 weight at engine start-up will not flow fast enough. From what I have read the 40 weight can 'tear' at high RPM thus not properly doing its job. (I imagine this in my mind as it being too thick and thus peels off like Elmers glue drying on your skin.)
This summer has been exceptionally hot where I live so I am running 10W30 but come the fall I
will be back to 5W30.
There is a retired GM engineer who visits this site every now and then but I think he will agree
with what I have posted here. Coming from the "Old days" of V-8's it's difficult to think that
a 30 weight oil is better than something that is
heavier. But I guess the tolerances are much tighter these days than in my old V-8 400 that
got 15 miles per gallon going down hill in neutral with a tail-wind.
I see that you live in New York State. We've been hot here in the northeast but still moderate compared to some parts of the country.
I understand the heavier oil might sound better in that it is thicker but mechanics claim the first seconds are the most important during startup(you can read it 100 times in this discussion group). These same mechanics claim that too thick of an oil film will tear against moving parts as discussed above. These claims also are supported
by companies like Castrol/Pennzoil-Quaker State...etc. I think I believe them moreso than
if it was Ford/GM/Chrysler making those statements. So since there is no perfect world, I suggest using what the manufacturer recommends and changing it often.
3 months unless you go near 3000 miles before that.
Your owners manual probably has a chart that looks
something like this:
Outside temperature range expected:
0 degrees F 100 degrees F
<---------------------------| 5W30
|-----------------------> 10W30
Well, here in PA we seldom go above 100 degrees
although we were pretty close to it this year.
For the last 10 years I have been running 10W30
in the summer and 5W30 the rest of the year.
No leaks no oil consumption on an 89 Ford.
But the 3 month schedule since I do it myself
is probably the reason I have no leaks or oil consumption.
The discussion over dyno-juice over the syn. oil will be debated forever. I don't want to touch that subject.
If you live where temps can go below 0 often, use 0W30 (Mobil 1 makes this, and synthetic oil DOES have a lot of benefit in such extreme conditions).
As far as the syn vs dino oil, I've said my piece: synthetic oil's benefits won't be obvious unless you keep the car past 100,000 miles.
I think Consumer Reports tested taxicabs with synthetic and dino oil and found after 60,000 miles, no difference. However, I don't think taxicabs (which are almost always idling) are a fair comparison to most drivers. It is an interesting comparison though.
Anyway, I am going to attempt to offer a new view and answer any burning questions you may have on lubrication from time to time. So consider this post a solicitation for your queries.
Well, who the heck is mwikle, and why should I believe him...I'm going to stick my "neck" out a bit to the group and let you know that I am a Chemical Engineer, and an S.T.L.E. (Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers) Certified Lubrication Specialist (CLS). I Supervise End-Customer & Distributor Training for a major oil company. I have been involved in lubricant & fuel additive manufacture and sales for over 10 years. Our team members develop advanced lubrication formulations in-house, & license virtually all next-generation base-oil manufacturing technology (i.e. Group II stocks).
My opinions are my own, not my employer's, period. This work is on my time, not theirs. My opinions are *completely biased*, but I believe my biases are based on good science, and sound engineering judgement...you be the judge.
I get kinda teed-off reading some logic & misinformation in the automotive aftermarket, people want their cars to "do better" so badly that,frankly, a lot of useless crap is sold to unsuspecting consumers...I hope help some of you make better judgements about your cars. The FTC cannot catch all of the "small fish", and it is surprisingly easy to get into the automotive chemicals business.
Now onto Lubes 101 topic number 1. Let's have some fun...
The single most important characteristic of lubricating oil is viscosity. Bluemist #348 is correct, always follow OEM recommendations on vis, even with synthetics, unless your operating conditions (or engine age) are such that they were probably not fully considered in the OEM spec.
Only the folks that designed the clearances in an engine, and tested it, can truly say the best vis for a given setup. Anything else is secondguessing without know all of the pieces, it may not hurt to vary vis from OEM rec (probably won't in fact) but, what is the upside for this varying from OEM spec on vis?...not much...perhaps a bit better mileage if you go lower vis/but you risk a too thin of an oil layer under some conditions in the bearings, & some lower vis oils may be more volitle and lead to earlier catalyst poisioning too...on the upside of vis, yeah you might get a thicker film that can handle more "stress", but once moving parts have an oil film between them, more oil film does *not* = less wear. A thicker oil from more vis will handle more loading before film separating the metals breaks down---but clearances may not accomodate adequate flow of heavier oils at startup or even running -- possibly accelerating wear. Gas milage also suffers with heavier oils. The OEM considers these facts in picking the oil.
If it is a choice between having an oil cooler or not, I would get one installed. Mine has an oil cooler installed in front of the radiator.
I think for *many*, probably most, drivers, following reasonable maintenance practices, using a "good" petro-based motor oil, syn-based motor oil is really not beneficial in a *quantifiable* way. If it was *quantifiable* the OEMs would spec it --- the car business is very competitive for one of them not to do so.
Syn base oil itself (not the addpack) provides three (3) properties of interest here: MUCH better flow at low temperatures (lower pour point), better resistance to oxidation (high temperatures), and less volatility (the new ILSAC GF2 spec is very concerned about this due to possibility of catalysts being poisioned by oil --- OEMs must give a long emission warranty & do not want premature catalyst failures)
There are *no* problems or downsides (other than cost, of course) with modern syn formulations by major manufacturers: syns used to have seal swell issues (i.e. caused leaks), and can be bit tricky to formulate as solubilities are different than petro oils. All this stuff has been solved. Some syns use a really good addpack, that may provide other benefits and "safety margin".
If I had any turbo or high performance (hot) engine, I'd use syn or possibly a group 2 conventional oil (another topic). Some OEMs will call for syn for these reasons.
If I lived in a really cold climate, I'd give strong consideration to syn (near or below ~0F). Syn can improve oilflow at startup, helping reduce the potential for wear. This can lead to longer life. We sell a lot of syn in AK, for example...Jets use syn, in part, because it's damn cold at 40,000 ft.
Finally, as long as the oil met the SAE or ILSAC spec, I'm not too concerned about the catalyst poison thing.
With syn, I think most vehicle owners really want their cars to last longer &/or get better milage/performance.
Syn cannot directly help durablity in operation because once any (syn or regular) oil film is established virtually no wear happens (that's why highway only engines, and stationary engines last so long).
Startup wear is mitigated by getting oil in the lubricated surfaces quickly, to do this at a given temp/vis syn is probably not materially faster getting to the lubricated surface a than conventional oil(think about it: why should syn flow any faster at the *same* "thickness" as a comparable conventional oil).
At very low temps, syn is far better. Period.
Again, I would be very suspicious of claims of longer life (because there is no lubrication mechanism improved by syn itself), or better mileage by syn (other than the better milage obtained from using a lower vis of any oil). I *personally* think some small suppliers flat out tell a "Clinton" on this type of claim.
One CAN design a addpack to improve the chances of a long engine life by doing a good job of suspending combustion particles, controlling oil oxidation, having good EP additives that minimize wear when there is no oil film, controlling sludge formation, etc...My point here is that such characteristics are not a property of the syn, but the addpack.
Why would anyone conduct an independent test to potentially sell 2-4x LESS product? (which is what potentially you can go more, between oil changes with synthetic)
Also, the synthetic and conventional oils conform to the same standards (check the standards on the labels of the oil you buy)
Someone independant, not trying to sell you something.
Given the posts in this topic, it is almost genius to place the price of synthetic oil 2-3 x the price of conventional oil.
Engine test (& other tests) costs & complexity are one reason I am always *very* suspicious of the smaller PCMO brands.
If I wanted to make a motor oil, and was willing to "stretch" the truth &/or skimp on trying to do qood Formualtion QC & Development a bit by not fully qualifying the oil in tests, one can buy a decent "off-the-shelf" PCMO addpack from folks like Lubrizol/Paramins/Oronite and just "stir it in" to a given base oil based on simple vis tests and addpack mfr's advice. It will probably be "good enough" in many (if not most)cases.
The big guys can do this too I suppose, but they have a lot more to loose & are watched more closely. People do publish misinformation if not "Clintons" in the automotive aftermarket. Look at past FTC actions. Buyer beware.
Yes, the standards are the real catch 22. As said in other posts, conv and syn meet the same standards. While syn oils are better for 6 reasons, there are no magic bullets. (Not to mention the price premium.)
It is almost a no brainer to say; buy the major syn based on price; just as conv oil.
I have read and re-read most of these posts and I gotta tell ya... WOW!
Let me see if I can sum up what you all basically say and if I am wrong please advise,
Synthetic oil is the best for your engine...
Conventional oil is the best for your engine...
Changing your oil and filter often is best for your engine...
Stay away from a cheap grade of oil...
Stay away form a cheap oil filter...
Don’t mix and match oils and / or viscosity, it is not worth the time or the hassle. Not to mention the unseen repair costs that you may have later...
Read your owners manual often...
Make your choice of oils based on your driving habits / styles and topographical areas...
Understandably we (normal consumer types) do not have access to design features of an engine or it's ability to withhold oil pressure forces at any speed or service. What is missing is the sealing design coverage of certain sealing mediums such as gaskets or cup seals or even orings. Nor does the normal public consumer know the difference between Buna-N, (or any type of seal for that matter) Neoprene or specialty seal. Knowing that how can we make (and thinking deeper, do we really want to find out? Job and economy based questions might arise. Besides we pay enough on welfare and other services. Grain and staple foods are the back bone of our diets! Hence, vehicles are the backbones of our life as well. Take away the auto part industry and where will the economy go? ) choices on the vehicles we buy.
To leave you wondering let me say....
If it works for you do it!!!
Just let me read something that will help us all.
Signed, no one in particular.