Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Engine Oil--A slippery subject
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Your point is understood, and I, for one, agree with you.
Isell, was than your honda? Shame on you for leting it get in that state if it was : )
I remember there was a discussion somewhere about Jetta's initial "break-in" oil. Now it happens to a Honda. I don't think the dealer would make more profit by being so firm at that point. There might be some reasons that they insist so. Would anyone experienced with such "break-in" oil, please tell me what to do about my break in maintenance? Thanks.
At one time, break-in oil was non-detergent, but that was long ago.
The closest one could come to a high quality low detergent oil is Valvoline's Racing oil. But I'm not sure if they make it in a light enough grade.
1. Has synthetic oil improved your vehicle horse power?
2. Or increased your vehicle gas mileage?
I will say that this is the first time I've ever heard this one, and it is a little unbelievable.
However, I'm always open to learning something new. Any comments? ;-)
I have had Quaker State Ultra Premium Synthetic 5W30 in my 1997 SW2 for the last 10 000 kmiles. Last summer - June - was when I switched from regular motor oil, QS 5W30. On the first tank of gas with synthetic I got 35 miles to the gallon, which I had never gotten in the first 25 000 miles of owning the car, which I bought new. The first trip I made of any distance was from Bozeman to Salt Lake. I was so thrilled with my improved mileage (about 1.5-2 mpg) that I drove about 80 mph all the way to SLC. I even used air conditioning. I rarely drive that fast and I use air only because my dear bride does not think we need to sweat in a car that has air. I am always trying to squeeze every possible mile out of a gallon of petrol. Anyway, on this trip I still got better than 33 mpg. Normally, under those conditions, I would only have expected 31 or 32 mpg. My conclusion is that in the heat, synthetic helped immensely to improve mpg.
However, recently I figured out the long term mileage, pre and post synthetic, and was surprised to discover that during the winter the car has only gotten about 32.7 mpg over about 8000 miles. There are two possibilities that explain that diminished performance:
1. It is cold and synthetic can not do enough to compensate for poor gasoline combustion.
2. I switched to 85.5 Octane this winter to save money, and paid for the switch in decreased mileage. I have since returned to 88 Octane and am hoping to return to better economy. Tonight we leave for a week long two thousand mile round trip to the midwest. I hope not to have to use my Thule roof rack, which reduces mileage to 30 mpg, so that I can see an accurate measurement of fuel consumption. That being the case I will try to remember to post my results in early April.
Now for some of my own questions.
1. I am still uncertain of the worth of synthetic oil. I buy it strictly for the longevity of my car's engine. I hope to pull well over 200 000 miles out of this engine. My dream would be 300 000 miles. (Yes I realize I may be unrealistic. This ain't no Benz) What will synthetic oil do to get me there that regular oil will not do?
2. The Saturn is a 5 speed manual. Owner's manual calls for one transmission change ever in the life of the car at 3000 miles. Does anyone out there change transmission fluid in a stick shift on a regular basis? If so, what oil is recommended?
3. I have read on this site about flushing engines, pulling off valve covers to remove sludge, etcetera. What is the deal? Must I make that a concern?
4. Some people fault synthetic oil for leaving a sludge deposit in the oil pan. Is that true? Remedy?
Hi Pocahontas! For best gas mileage, if it is ok for your car, use 5w30. It really doesn't matter which type, though. Granted, if you live in a cold climate, and make mostly short trips, the synthetic might have a bigger effect, since it stays thinner at cold temperatures.
Clary, no one has proven any correlation between synthetic and longevity, unfortunately. Frequent oil changes are the best thing you could do to make it last.
Synthetic protects better at extreme operating conditions, warms up quicker, and flows at temperatures that turn regular oil into thick ooze. It washes the parts well too. I've heard of people changing their oil, then doing a second change with synthetic, and the oil turned dark immediately. That would be from washing off grime that regular oil left on the parts.
An engine flush is needed for an engine that did NOT get frequent oil changes.
Clary, ref. #4, I'm guessing you're referring to the fact that synthetic will wash the internal engine parts well. So, if the oil/engine is filthy, changing to synthetic will wash all that garbage off the engine, and into the pan, if it doesn't get stuck blocking any of the drain holes.
Remedy: change your oil so this never happens.
If it happens, at your own risk, do an engine flush. If the car has been in this condition for many miles, a flush can cause leaky gaskets, or wash sludge into places that are bad for the engine.
Call Saturn for the recommended oil for that tranny. They will be the best judge.
Pocahontas, experience and an old engineering degree tell me that a 5 MPG increase associated with a switch to synthetic oil is very unlikely. I agree with Markbuck that the mileage improvement would be small; normally not even measurable without very detailed before-and-after fuel usage records. Cold-engine horsepower would be a bit higher but, since the engine should be driven "gently" when cold, the HP difference is of no practical value. (An exception is a vehicle such as a fire-truck which must be driven hard before it can warm up.)
I drive a mini-van, and they don't really get the greatest mileage, so even 1.5-2 mpg improvement, as post 162 claims, is a little motivating. I might just try it one time, or so, to see if it improves anything.... I live in Florida, where it's warm, so I'm not sure how much I'd really benefit; if it makes a noticeable difference I'll post my results here.
One more question: does it make the engine run smoother or quieter? That's another one I heard. Thanks again. ;-)
One should think of these things in terms of percentages. The percentages do range, so 5 mph is possible, but of a gas milege of say 40 mpg, for example. Are the numbers absolute? You can bet your next oil change that they are not. They are not even absolute for regular oil.
In my own case, I experienced 1-2 mpg more for a savings range of between 7 - 13% If you look at a 7-13% savings of over 50-100k miles the savings can be significant. If you will not go the 50k-100k miles in that time, and savings are not important then no: don't switch. Also, because synthetic flows better; it generates less heat in operation. app 25-50 degress in my case. If that is not a concern to you, not switching is a good option. The synthetic is a superior lubricant, what is the real issue is whether or not one wants to pay up to 2.5 times more than regular oil. Once you decide that, then the next decision is whether or not to extend oil changes for economic purposes for you have spent more for the product. And yes it does feel smoother and more powerful, and part of the reason is because the oil doesn't get in its own way as much due to better flow.
I average 7500 miles per year and make a lot of hops under 4 miles each way.
My dealer said I'm better off with more frequent dino changes (say every 4-5 months) than 2 synth changes/yr. Agree/disagree?
Everything I've read says to wait before changing to synthetic. I think I waited 1000 miles. You should be fine with a little wait.
No matter if you decide to use reg/syn, you have the most toxic use environment that an engine and trans has to endure. In the strict sense,the use of syn will be far superior, but may be economically canceled out some. If the choice is 2 syn changes to 3 reg changes, I would opt for one syn change, and once a week or twice a month take the van on a highway miles blowout.
However, I am puzzled by the 25-50 degree oil temperature reduction associated with synthetic oil. Since one function of the crankcase oil is removal of heat, predominately heat from combustion, I would not have expected that much difference. Can you elaborate, please?
On 4 trucks temp gauges, the usual temp using conventional oil (and of course same 5-30W IAW manufacturers recommendation) is precisely at half. In each truck, after change to synthetic, it has been precisely less than half. If this happened on one trucks gauge, one might chalk it up to say a self fulfilling prophesy from a rabid syn advocate...but it is true on a total of 4 trucks. The further thing noticed is that at all operating levels, AC on AC off, up grade down grade, the gauge is virtually the same(precisely less than half). Again for all 4 trucks. So to sum up; the system runs cooler. I buy Mobil 1, 5-30w, but just like reg oil, one can buy on price. I like Mobil One and it happens to usually be middle to cheapest.
That is what a deep winter for 6 months or less is for!!
Also, use the thinnest-recommended oil. Ie, if you can use either 10/30 or 5/30 in your temp range, use 5/30, as it will flow more easily (and hence protect more parts earlier) when 'cold' than the 10/30 will.
RE fuel economy, a controlled test (available at www.ames.net/rboehne/oil/synth.html) indicated that there was no statistically proveable difference between IDENTICAL*-viscosity DD v. synthoil. HOWEVER, because synthoil can be used safely and reliably in a thinner viscosity than DD oil, there's how synthoil gets its fuel-economy advantage.
I don't understand the controversy regarding the economics of using synthoil v. DD oil. The difference in oil costs over, say, the 5 years we own our vehicles (at $15/change times 2 or 3 changes per year) is SWAMPED by the total operating costs. Eg, the gasoline cost for 75K miles could be $3000 to $6000, and depreciation of a new vehicle could be $5000 to $15000--so what's $150 difference in oil costs?
Pls understand that I do NOT believe that DD oil is not GOOD or even very good--it's just that synthoil is BETTER!
* That's measured to be identical, not just the same API viscosity number.
There is also an environmental spin off that most dino folks tend to ignore for the lack of personal downstream cost. If you change your oil 2-3x less.. do you ultimately have less waste that you have to reprocess...???? Do you have to spend up to 3 times less time doing changes....???
Now suppose say in CA that has app 34 million vehicles and if I could wave my magic wand and say instead of 3x or 1.02 billion oil changes in say a yrs time; you use synthetic once a yr or say 34 million oil changes a yr instead of 1.02 billion...???
Perhaps this is why CA schools don't emphasize math. And besides, no one can statistically prove there is a off beat benefit here.(This higher level stuff is just too difficult.)And even if you could prove it, so what??
So just as long as the dino users self esteem is in full bloom, we will continue to do, what we need to do
Of course the filter does become total waste.
Mouse TRAP!!!! I did that to see if anyone was really listening... and glad to see that at least one was. But the problem is really more than right church wrong pew, or right pew wrong church.I am almost willing to bet that while you spotted the apparent math mistake you probably dont use synthetic oil your self..????? And if you dont and spotted the mistake... what about the other non math ers???
Also keep in mind that some of these same folks that want the mathematical proof. And really so what?? The math is in the percentages of syn vs conventional oil users...
I would venture to guess that even though syn oil has been around since 1929?, the thinist of minorities use this oil??????
I used 5W-50 Syntec in my wife's 740 Turbo and it seemed to work fine. I use 15W-50 Mobil 1 in my BMW year round with no ill effects. FWIW, I live in an area which sees -0F at least a couple of times per year.
Yes, syn oil gives more stable performance. I use Mobil One syn. (5-30w in accordance with my vehicles' manuals.) I am glad that the Schaffers 15-40W works well for you. Thanks for the link I will check them out.
I am also concerned about voiding the warranty. Will the engine be covered if I do the oil changes myself? All I will have to document the oil is my oil and oil filter purchase receipts. Even though the frequency may be vaildated, they may claim that I installed it improperly or something like that.
Any comments would be appreciated.
penguinj
Enjoy that 'Stang. I had an '87 that I drove around racetracks in the West for 8 years before I replaced it. Loved it!
Use 5W-30 for new car (1 or 2 years old) and 10W-30 for old car (2+ years). Is this ture?
Is M1 0W-30 good? Does the thicker oil has more protection? like 10w is better than 5w than 0w?
I see a lot of opinion, and little knowledge. Are there any engineers from the SAE who can set us straight on these topics (break in, oil change frequency, synth vs mineral oil etc.)?
Bottom line... I always try to follow the mfr's recommendations for everything. If they say break-in is 'don't accelerate hard for 600 mi.', then I follow these instructions. New car engines are a lot better than they used to be (back when I could rebuild one at home). When I rebuilt, it used to take a long time for a proper break-in, with special oils, a speed regimen etc.
Some auto mfrs (BMW, and M-B, I think), actually measure the state of the engine oil and indicate when a change is necessary. Are their any after-market kits that would do the same?
Drove about 2000 miles - from Bozeman, Montana to eastern South Dakota. Aversge speed was about 72mph on 1500 miles of I90 and 65 mph on all secondary highways. Total fuel consumption average was 34.3mpg, which is at least a mile higher than pre-synthetic consumption.
Since returning from vacation I changed my oil. I had about 5900 miles on the old stuff. For the first time I used a high end filter. I got a $10.61 one from car quest. It is supposed to have some non-paper filtration material in it that makes it substantially better than the average $2.50 filter. My question for those of you who are reading is this: how many of you who use synthetic oil also spend the extra dollars on a premium fiklters? I would like to have gotten a Mobil 1 filter, but none were available.
And, finally, how many of you are putting well over 6000 miles on synthetic before changing?
I used to run non-paper filters by Fram with the prefix of HPH in my diesel. Seemed to keep the oil cleaner, longer, but not sure. I'm gonna run the PureONE filters from Purolater (about $6) with my cheap synthetic blend oil from Walmart.
6000 miles is probably ok on any oil if you do lots of long trips with not much start and stop. Too long on any oil if you are doing lots of cold starts..... Poor combustion contamination from a cold engine will overwhelm any oil in as little as 2,000 miles.
BYPASS oil filters are an excellent idea if you can stand the bother. They'll remove MUCH smaller particles than any fullflow (FF) filter can, because they filter only, say, 1% of oilflow that a FF does. BUT.........engine oil really does wear out chemically before it gets full of particles, so it's probably a waste of time and money.
Marbuck, you're so right about that uncontrolled test of fuel economy.
To ois99 (#196)--that may have been a good idea (and maybe even required) when engines wore out in 50- to 75000 miles, but they sure don't now. I'd use the recommended viscosities 'till it started rattling!
To clary, #199--I use Mobil 1 filters with M1 oil. I drain M1 from 2 vehicles after at least 5000 miles but never over 6500 miles. (All my stuff is still under warranty, but I'd probably do it the same if it were not.)
About your turbocharged engine--high heat wears out DD oil much faster than it does synthoil.
My guess on 'break-in' oil is that it doesn't protect as well as regular oil so the pistonrings can seat faster. I'd drain that stuff SEVERAL times before my car got to 5K-miles! Oil and filters are cheap, the engine is not. I'd really grill VW on that requirement.
Ditto on your comments on synthetic oil. It is the superior lubricant. Most folks who tell you that regular oil is so wonderful have probably never had the pleasure of scraping the innards of a sludged engine run with regular oil. Then, as they criticize one for using synthetic oil longer than regular oil and the higher cost; they practice a form of voodoo economics. (have you ever heard that you should change oil anywhere from 1500-7500 miles?)If you do the math, the range is 1 to 5 times??
Also anywhere from 1000 -2500 miles I would do an oil change... and then get the factory one done at 5000 miles.
- - - - - - - - - -
You can start using Mobil 1 in new vehicles at any time. In fact, Mobil 1 is the factory fill in Corvette LS1, LT-1 and LT-5 engines. And
Mobil and Porsche just announced a new partnership that will also have all Porsche cars manufactured at the Zuffenhausen plant lubricated with Mobil 1. One of the myths that persists about Mobil 1 is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. Current engine
manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As the decisions by the engineers who design the Corvette and Porsche engines indicate, Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive the car off the show room floor.
The “30” designation identifies that all three grades (0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30) will exhibit the same oil viscosity at normal engine operating
temperatures. The “W” designation identifies the low temperature viscosity. A smaller number indicates an ability to flow at lower temperatures. In summary, Mobil 1 0W-30 will provide the correct viscosity protection at normal engine operating temperatures, and BETTER
protection at low temperature extremes for any vehicle that calls for a 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil.
If you have any additional questions, you may contact us at our E-mail address: lubes@ffx.mobil.com or by phone at 1-800-ASKMOBIL.
- - - - - - - - - -
You can start using Mobil 1 in new vehicles at any time. In fact, Mobil 1 is the factory fill in Corvette LS1, LT-1 and LT-5 engines. And
Mobil and Porsche just announced a new partnership that will also have all Porsche cars manufactured at the Zuffenhausen plant lubricated with Mobil 1. One of the myths that persists about Mobil 1 is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. Current engine
manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As the decisions by the engineers who design the Corvette and Porsche engines indicate, Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive the car off the show room floor.
The “30” designation identifies that all three grades (0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30) will exhibit the same oil viscosity at normal engine operating
temperatures. The “W” designation identifies the low temperature viscosity. A smaller number indicates an ability to flow at lower temperatures. In summary, Mobil 1 0W-30 will provide the correct viscosity protection at normal engine operating temperatures, and BETTER
protection at low temperature extremes for any vehicle that calls for a 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil.
If you have any additional questions, you may contact us at our E-mail address: lubes@ffx.mobil.com or by phone at 1-800-ASKMOBIL.