My father, who in his youth had had a good understanding of things mechanical, in his old age became an STP convert. He'd pour it into the carb, I think, and thought that the resultant white cloud out the tailpipe was proof that something good had happened in the engine.
Re. Blends: I called Castrol a while back and seem to recall they said their blend was 30% synthetic but I could be wrong. I do remember them saying that their blend has the highest % of synthetic of any blend on the market. Call Castrol's cust. serv. and ask them.
I use synthetic oil for couple reasons, if anybody cares, 1)My wife's Chevy Caprice doing 3 - 6 K during the cold season which is 6 - 7 month long, and I don't like to change oil during the cold weather and synthetic, I think, deteriorate with time much slower then usual oil, also I pour in 1 - 1.5 qt during those month. 2) I using synthetic in my trusty Chevy Corsica (bought used, mileage unknown) just to keep worn out engine running. I add 1 qt every 2 weeks or so and use store brand cheapest synthetic oil. This way I wouldn't blame myself if engine dyes. Oil changes on this car is only relevant because of filter change, otherwise it's oil changed every 7 - 8 weeks anyway. Also to things to keep this car running is Chevron Fuel Injector Cleaner - concentrate, and removal of the gas tank cap in the morning to relive vacuum and help week fuel pump.
Please help. Just last friday my girlfriend made 30.000 miles service to her 96 Honda Civic hatch. The guy at service dept. told her that her car needs engine flush (30.200 miles on odometer). They did flushing, put new oil filter and filled engine with new oil. Today is Saturday and Civic can't start. Cranks up fine, but some strange metalic noise comes up. Also, at the display panel I see highlighted Park and D4 positions at gears display. After 7-8 starts, engine came up, but some metallic noise and some sort of clicking came out from running engine. I checked dipstick and it showed oil level above high mark. I think some #$$@&%e screwed up something. We are both afraid of moving that car around. If someone has any opinion, please post. Thank you.
It is *possible* they didn't drain the flush. Of course, the stick can show a high level from the cranking. But go to the cold car, and pull the stick. Is it over-filled? Call dealer immediately. If you can't wait, see if you can pull the plug, drain the entire thing, and keep a record of how much (in quarts) was in there. Don't forget to fill with fresh oil. Keep us informed.
Thank you for your input. I was't aware that they *could not drain engine after the flush*. The dipstick shows oil level almost 1/8-3/16 above high mark, when engine is cold. I just opened the hood and checked it up. Got some oil between my finger and it has some strange feel. In *my* words it is not too slipery. More likely like tranie oil. Will make comparison with oil from another car. I am just plain scared, that engine got killed, because someone did't pay attention while performing his job. I 'll got some new info monday, after visit in the service dept. I think, best thing is to tow that poor car to the dealer. c ya l8er
Maybe it's only a spark-plug wire hanging loose. That would account for the difficulty in starting and the metallic or clicking noise would be the spark jumping to ground. I doubt if 1/8-to-3/16" extra on the dipstick is a serious overfill.
In the "worst case", they filled with flush, and didn't drain it, that is what I was thinking.
Krzys, smell the oil. I didn't think of this until you mentioned the feel: It would smell like diesel if they left the flush in it, and would be watered down.
I just recently bought a 99 civic ex coupe. For this car the power comes at 5000+rpm and rev limits at 8000rpm. So the engine mostly live in the redline where the vtec is working. Ever since new I used 15w-50 Mobil 1. I use this car as a weekend Scca and import drag racer. I was wondering if this motor oil is right for my car.
The question is, is there a noticeable difference in engine protection between 15-50 and 10-30 synthetic? I know 10-30 reduces vibration in the Honda 4-cylinders significantly at high rpm's over 5-30. Friction rises exponentially with rpm, and I could feel the difference in my Integra. Now, will 15-30 protect any better than 10-30? I think this is a question for an experienced racer. My gut feeling is you'd be better off getting a little extra power by going back down to 10-30. One other factor could be if this engine is stock or not, which you didn't mention. And, you don't run 15 weight colder weather I hope? Mobil 1 is my choice too
A few years back I took my car (then a Z28) to one of those drive-in oil change places. As soon as I drove out of the place, I noticed the engine sounded odd and the car had no pickup. I drove back to the place and asked the Manager to take a look at it. The attendants never drained the old oil before adding the new! Of course, they performed the service over again and handed my money back. As far as the metallic clanking sound you refer to, I can relate a similar sound that was caused by a loose bolt in the transmission of that Z28 (I drove it VERY hard). Another similar sound occurred when I blew the clutch on my Wrangler.
Flushing a crankcase is not normally needed, even after 150,000 miles if the engine has had reasonable care (oil/filter changes and no significant overheating). Even in case of neglect, such as a great many cold starts or 10,000+ miles since that last oil change, the best clean-up procedure would normally be to change oil & filter (using the grade specified by the manufacturer), drive about 100 miles and change oil and filter again.
You surely had something out of the ordinary for a reputable shop to have suggested a crankcase flush; suggest that you first learn why they suggested flushing.
If the shop used a solvent such as diesel fuel or varsol, you could indeed have significant engine damage. These are not lubricants and should never be used in a crankcase; not even for a few seconds.
An overfill of 3/16" on the dipstick is about 0.25 quart; not really a problem...assuming it's the correct oil of course.
Is it possible that the shop performed a routine oil change and flushed the cooling system? That would correspond better to a routine maintenance schedule.
Your noise and starting problems may be serious; don't drive until you get better information.
The P & D4 shift indicator problem is likely a lamp-switch stuck or broken. Is is possible that the linkage is loose or broken. Neither problem will be expensive to fix but it should be done.
I have '95 Saturn SL with 40k. Recently I discovered that it was burning oil at a rate of 1 quart per 2,000 miles.
I called 3 Saturn dealerships and they all said the same thing, as if they were reading off the same paper," Saturns are supposed to burn oil. Because of the aluminum engines, it's normal for your car to burn 1 quart every 1500 miles"
One guy explained that the cylinder is a little bit oversized for the piston because the aluminum engine has a low temperature tolerance. Therefore a little oil gets burned in the combustion.
Does this sound right?! A car expected to burn oil?! I wished they told me this before I bought it.
Spokane, I mentioned the smell of diesel because I believed all major engine flushes to be diesel fuel. You suggest diesel is a dangerous flush. As a follow up, I'd like to know what the major flushes really consist of if I am wrong.
hummbaby, my understanding is that it is acceptable for even new cars to burn up to a quart of oil every 1000 miles. ususally i have heard this in the context of fords, but i suppose it's something that could be found across all makes. I don't know about a car that's 'supposed' to burn oil, but like i said, i've heard that oil consuption is an acceptable fact of life with some cars and it does not indicate worn seals.
Guitarzan, sorry I don't know what is currently being marketed as engine flush solutions. Someone indicated they may be lube oil with an extra amount of detergent; in which case they may be OK. The use of a solvent such as diesel fuel will remove some sludge but more significantly, it washes the oil from the bearings thus increasing the likelihood of metal-to-metal contact. Perhaps I overdo it a bit, but I find it to be low-cost engine insurance to avoid flushing and change oil and filters at 2000 to 3000 miles. I share your interest in learning the chemistry of engine flushes.
As to oil change frequency, as explained in some of the trade magazines, the primary need to replace engine oil is not its loss of lubricity but is due to deterioration of the detergents, emulsifiers, and other additives. There are the occasional stories of infrequent oil changes and "the engine still runs good." However, the far more common scenario is that of having saved $100 on oil changes....followed by major engine damage at 50,000 miles or less.
Well "spokane." (Pun intended) And if there is sludge you are trying to bust, instead of it being compartmentalized in the oil pan/oil pump intake strainer, you dissolve it and pump the garbage throughout the engine when you flush. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I would rather just drain the pan and clean the strainer than do the flush, if it was that essential. But by changing the oil and filter more frequently, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I have been told that Pennzoil (purbase) with Z-7 is better than Castrol oil. I, however, read on another website that Castrol has better viscosity ratings, burn rates, etc. But, I often wonder if some of these ratings and additives are unnecessary just as long the oil is API certified. I would appreciate any recommendations on which oil is better or if it doesn't matter what name brand it is as long it is certified.
RichllTF, thirty years ago there were significant additive differences from brand to brand...and therefore quality differences. When the oil companies began formulating the "energy conserving" oils in the early 1970's, I believe some mistakes were made that led to excessive fouling. However, about two years ago, Consumer's Reports did a pretty thorough evaluation of six or more of the major oil brands (all certified API service SG, I believe) in a fleet of NY City taxis, all with carefully rebuilt GM V6 engines. CU concluded that there were no major differences in quality; all were very good. Another study found that some oil brands had measurable batch to batch viscosity variation, but when you note that a 10W-30 oil changes from a viscosity of 5000 SUS to 65 SUS as it warms from 20*F to 210*F, these differences really were not important. It is my opinion that CU overlooked only one criteria; how does each oil tolerate the acid contamination that results from stopping and engine before it warms up completely? That's an important point...it's a major factor in determining the frequency of oil changes needed.
Nevertheless, it was a good study and I would be comfortable with any of the major oil brands. I don't know of current evidence to support the old adage that you should not mix brands, but why open that possibility? It is suggested that you pick one of the major brands in the viscosity recommended by the automaker, keep a quart or two in the trunk "just in case" and change oil and filter somewhat more often than the automaker requires for warranty compliance.
You seem to know a lot about oil. I haven't read the actual CU study, but I believe it also addressed the topic of synthetic oil. If I remember right, their conclusion was that there is no real value to using synthetic.
What do you think of synthetic? Know of any other good, objective written studies on it? I just bought a new car and am still debating whether to use synthetic. Will have this vehicle a long time, so want the engine to last. Have been told that I should wait until engine has 10K before using it, if at all. Haven't decided yet if it's worth it, given my driving habits. I don't drive like an old lady, but i don't drive like a NASCAR-driver-wannabe, either.
BTW, do you actually live in Spokane, Wa? I live in Seattle....in the "other" Wa.
Anne4, I did do any research on synthetic oil, but just by trying it on my '89 Maxima and '83 Celica for the last 3 yrs, I could tell that it worked so well( I used Castrol synthetic). You can feel the difference when you step on the gas. The paddle is very smooth and light. I changed oil about 4K interval, and the synthetic still thin and is not so black as the regular oil. Maybe you should try it once to find out the difference. By the way, I think the difference is more easily observed on old cars. Tung
Anne4 I am certainly no expert on synthetic oil but I recall some of the evolution of this technology.
Mobil-1 was the first big player in synthetic lube for automobile engines. Early 1970's, I think. Three key points came to light.
* Engine gasketing was such that many engines would leak the synthetic oil but did not leak conventional motor oil. With time, I believe oil reformulations, and probably the improved gasket compositions, have essentially overcome this problem.
* Synthetic oil viscosity changes very little with temperature. This was, and continues to be, a major advantage in minimizing engine wear during cold starts. The question becomes a little tricky as regards "how cold" and "how many cold starts per season." My impression is that if you expect several starts at less than 0*F (engine temp, not garage temp), synthetic oil is justified. If almost all starts will be at 25+*F, conventional oil is essentially as good. Between these two conditions; I must defer to other authority.
* Synthetic oils were originally touted for their long life; 15,000 miles or more. This conflicted with auto manufacturer's warranties, and for good reason. Background: As a lubricant, synthetic is more stable and probably is good for many miles. But, any engine oil becomes contaminated, primarily from combustion products. For this reason both types of oils need to be changed .... at essentially the same frequency. There are many opinions on change-frequency (and I have my own) but please don't exceed 5000 miles on a car you plan to keep for some time.
I believe the only disadvantage to synthetic oil is cost. With the objective of having a good engine at 150,000+ miles, the oil price difference can be viewed as insurance. If you are in a warm climate, it becomes like flood insurance for a house on a hilltop.
I, too, have heard the suggestion that a new engine should not be converted to synthetic oil until ~10,000 miles; but I would like to hear more on this. For example, if I park my new car where it's likely to be -20*F, why should I wait to put in synthetic oil?
Anne, I am afraid my Washington ties are weak. I am a Spokane native but left for southeastern US at a very young age in 1945.
Thanks for your info. Tung, you say that you can feel the difference when you step on the gas pedal. Can you explain a bit more what you mean? Do you think the engine is more responsive and powerful, or you feel less vibration and laboring?
Spokane: I, too, have wondered about the magicalness of waiting until 10K miles to switch to synthetic. No one has explained to me yet why 10K and not 5K, or 3K, or 20K for that matter is the "best" time to switch.
Since I live in Seattle, the car doesn't have to start at temps below 25 degrees F very often. I do, however, like the idea of the more stable viscosity, higher flash point, and stronger film strenth of synthetic oil. Also, in the summer I'll be driving to Colorado and will encounter temps in the 90's along the way. It would be nice to have synthetic in the engine for prolonged 75-80 mph driving in hot ambient temps. Doesn't seem like it's a good idea to switch back an forth between synthetic and dino oil, which is another argument for synthetic. Haven't yet decided to use it, though.
Spokane, do you use Castrol's 5-30 or 5-50? The discount store i go to stocks only 5-50. That seems like too wide viscosity range.
By that I mean you will see the RPM going up fast and much less noise from the engine, and I think that is due to less friction in the engine block. To my simple mind, my engine probably wears slowlier. Tung
Spokane, Thank you for your input and the research you did. I am trying to determine what type of oil that would give my '94 Honda Accord (with vtec engine) the best performance and the best chance for longevity. What type of oil (standard or synthetic/brand) would you recommend? Also, are there any brands that you tend to like the best?
I agree, Anne, that 5W-50 is a wide range. You may have noticed that auto manufacturers in many cases have narrowed the multi-viscosity range spec for their recommended oil. For example, they now often specify 10W-30 whereas 10W-40 was more common in the past. I don't recall my information source, but this reportedly is a compromise. To achieve the wide range (i. e. 10W-40) a large dose of viscosity-extender additives is required....but this dosage reduces the proportion of lubricant in the mix. In this example, while Detroit continues to prefer the SAE 40 capability rather than SAE 30 for high temp operation, they don't find it to be worth the trade-off in lubricity. (The trade-off may have been in film strength rather than lubricity; I'm not certain.) I do recall the crux of the article was that Detroit is moving away from high proportions of viscosity extenders. I don't know of any vehicle spec that calls for 10W-50 but perhaps there are some. Otherwise, I am a little puzzled that reputable companies such as Castrol produce the 5W-50. You might ask Castrol.
I am most comfortable staying with the manufacturer's suggested viscosity range.
I don't know that all the major oil companies produce a 5W-30; but Castrol does indeed make it. It should be fairly common; you might check other stores.
You asked about any formal comparison testing of synthetic versus conventional oils. It certainly exists but I can't put my hands on it and therefore can't quantify the engine longevity advantage for synthetic oil in mild temperatures. I have no doubt of the improved power during cold operation. This is important for emergency vehicles but of limited practical value for the rest of us..... We really should drive "gently" for the first few miles regardless of oil type. With your knowledge of flash point, viscosity stability, and film strength; you seem better poised than most of us to make the decision on synthetic oil. I will offer one observation: The cost difference for synthetic over conventional oil is about $2.50 per qt. If the crankcase holds four qts, and you change oil at 3K intervals, your added cost is $500 for 150K miles. Well worth it if you encounter extreme heat or cold. With your climate and you obvious "compassion for your engine", it seems the economics of synthetic oil become a tough call.
CU study. One reservation I have with this study is the relative infrequency of cold-starts these vehicles had. THAT is the single, biggest reason for me using synthetics in the winter; as the oil will have lower viscosity at low temperatures than a conventional, multi-grade oil. I'm sure a similar rationale would apply to people who live in very hot climates of the U.S. NorthWest. Many cabbies I have known leave their car idling and just lock the door behind them. For the number of miles driven, that's optimal in the winter.
Good point, rdeschene, I agree that CU's evaluation did not address the cold-start variable.
I find it also of interest to note the "cold-stop" phenomena. Consider the driver who parks his car in the driveway at 5 PM and and at 9 PM moves the car into the garage for the night. He has thus shut down a cold engine which has a higher-than-normal concentration of combustion products in the crankcase due to the rich fuel mixture associated with cold starting. This contamination condenses and ultimately mixes with the oil. This practice thus increases engine wear/contamination from the extra cold starts and further increases the rate of oil contamination from the extra "cold stops."
If you truely care about your car, pay equal attention to all aspects of maintenance, not just the engine oil. Too many folks take pride in never missing an oil changes in 5 years and yet never change the brake fluid once. The 3 month/3000 miles oil change interval is like the 3 month salary rule for diamond rings and the four food groups: hyped by the industry that make money on people following *rules* THEY created. Afterall, who implanted the fear of "thermal viscosity breakdown" in every person on earth? :-) If you're unsure, follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule on all items. Don't second guess their oil-change recommendation and then ignore the rest of the items on their list.
I think the only original fluid left in my truck is power steering fluid. After 34 months and 45K miles, all the others have been changed, most several times - transmission fluid, transfer case fluid, front and rear diffs, coolant, brake fluid.
Here's my take on some of this, for whatever it's worth. (I DO take pride in maintaining properly whatever I have, I'm willing to spend the money for the best, I've been doin this for 40 years, I read technical info about this, and I do my own work.) 1. All name-brand engine oils are equally very good at protecting engines even tho some are better (and worse) at particular things as a result of a particular company's philosophy. However, these differences are probably quite invisible (and meaningless) to us consumers. 2. Synthetic oil is better at virtually everything (ie oxidizes more slowly = longer life or better protection, higher film strength, etc.). Particularly, it has inherently higher viscosity index (= resistance to thinning with higher temperature) so it requires less VI improver. IMO, synthetic oil is well worth the money if you love your vehicle. 4. Buy NAME-BRAND filters. I've used Fram, MotorCraft (Ford), and currently Mobil 1 filters. 4. I use synthetic oils EVERYWHERE in my vehicles--engine, trans, diffs, powersteering systems--and Mobil 1 synthetic grease in my gun and for wheel bearings. I prefer M1 engine oil and Red Line gear and trans oils--why I'm not sure, except that RL makes an EXCELLENT mechanical-trans lube called MTL (for Mechanical Transmission Lubricant) that works MUCH better than the ATF specified for some manual transmissions. I change oil in brand-new engines the same way they vote in Cook County--early and often. I've changed the engine oil (and filter) in my new Grand Cherokee 4.7L twice in 500 miles. I'll drain this Valvoline (nothing magic about the brand--it was the only 5-30 I could find) probably around 2K miles and start using M1 5-30 (or 10-30 in the one summer-season change; it gets REALLY hot in Phoenix).
To C13 (post #97)--if it's a Chrysler product using that short filter, switch to a MotorCraft FL-1A (or name-brand equivalent) IF THERE's ROOM. I've done that on both my Jeeps.
To gchernyal (# 139)--my (now-sold) Cherokee required transfer-case and differential oil changing at something like 18,000-mile and 12,000-mile intervals, so it's not just the Troopers!
Interesting tidbit--engine oils and gear oils (and aircraft oils and industrial oils, also) are rated on a different viscosity scale, so that at 40 degrees C., SAE 30 engine oil is about the same viscosity as 85W SAE gear oil. (Source for this info is an EXCELLENT summary of lubes by 'Four Wheeler' magazine. E-mail me including your mailing address if you want a copy.)
jeffrey, Unlike most owners who are advocating using cheap oil and waiting 5000-7000 miles before changes, your vehicles sound like ones that might actually be worth owning when you trade them in!
You've made the point that the Civic is a very fine car. That's fine, but personally, I'm much more interested in the answer to the question about what was used to flush the engine. Could you, would you please ask and let us know?
Also, is that all your shop did? Flush the engine? I presume the valve cover was cleaned while it was off. Was the oil pan taken down also and cleaned? I would think that's the proper procedure a first-class mechanic might follow. Running some engine-cleaning solvent though it seems like a bush-league approach, especially since you claim no one had ever before seen an engine this sludged up. If you didn't drop the pan, how do you know there isn't still a lot of sludge still there?
quadrunner500--thx. Sometimes I think that no one appreciates my fetish.
isellhondas--if you, too, take exceptional care of your vehicles, on what do you thing I'm going WAY (your emphasis) overboard?
My next lube-related porjects will be to determine that Red Line's ATF and diff lubes meet Chrysler's requirements for the new 4(5)-speed auto trans, QT2 transfercase and gerotor-equipped diffs. We'll see.
Note on auto-trans oil changing--Chrysler indicates specifically that the torgue converter in this new 4(5)-speed trans does NOT have a drain plug and that NO attempt should be made to drain it. Of course, this isn't the only AT not having a drain plug. I always felt that one was changing only half of the oil without draining the converter. Oh well...
Nah, I really don't have much brand loyalty. I just like to ridicule Chrysler, or now Kreisler.
My car's a Honda, and it's true that they seem to go to a smaller replacement filter every year. Hard to imagine that that surface area could be adequate. Seems like a dumb move. They might have larger sizes. I never thought to ask for them.
What do you think of those kits for relocating your oil filter to a more convenient location? Actually it's not the location that bothers me, but I'd love to have the thing installed threaded side up, so that when you unscrew it, it doesn't spill. Side mounting is silly.
I, too, have wondered about Honda's oil filter sizes. My '93 Accord had a 2.0 liter engine and a 4 qt. oil capacity. My '99 Odyssey has a 3.5 liter engine with a 5 qt. oil capacity. They use the exact same Honda oil filter! Can't believe the filter has enough interior surface area to do an adequate job for the Ody engine. Seems like they're cutting corners here so they can maintain fewer items in inventory.
Jeffrey, I have found that Fram filters in some horizontal applications do not spill when they are changed if the old filter is allowed to cool sufficiently. You want to drain the crankcase while hot, of course, and waiting 2+ hours to go back and remove the filter may be inconvenient for some people. I presume the "shell-side" of the filter is able to hold it's contents because the rubber inlet check valve is stronger at the lower temp, the oil viscosity is higher and therefore less likely to ooze through the filter media, leak-down characteristics of the pump and engine bearings and/or thermal contraction of the retained oil. Anyone else have an explanation?
This does not work on some cars ...and perhaps works with only a few brands/sizes of filters.
But, Anne, it does work on the smaller Honda engines so maybe it's worth a try on your cars.
They just used an engine flush. I don't know what brand it was but they are all pretty much the same.
Of, course, they pulled the pan, cleaned it along with the valve cover and looked things over.
My point was not to sing the praises of Honda engines but to express my dismay of people who can pay a lot of money for something and neglect it in such a fashion.
Comments
I called Castrol a while back and seem to recall they said their blend was 30% synthetic but I could be wrong. I do remember them saying that their blend has the highest % of synthetic of any blend on the market. Call Castrol's cust. serv. and ask them.
Please help. Just last friday my girlfriend made 30.000 miles service to her 96 Honda Civic hatch.
The guy at service dept. told her that her car needs engine flush (30.200 miles on odometer).
They did flushing, put new oil filter and filled
engine with new oil. Today is Saturday and Civic can't start. Cranks up fine, but some strange metalic noise comes up. Also, at the display panel I see highlighted Park and D4 positions at gears display. After 7-8 starts, engine came up, but some metallic noise and some sort of clicking came out from running engine. I checked dipstick and it showed oil level above high mark. I think some #$$@&%e screwed up something. We are both afraid of moving that car around. If someone has any opinion, please post. Thank you.
Thank you for your input. I was't aware that they *could not drain engine after the flush*. The dipstick shows oil level almost 1/8-3/16 above high mark, when engine is cold. I just opened the hood and checked it up. Got some oil between my finger and it has some strange feel. In *my* words it is not too slipery. More likely like tranie oil. Will make comparison with oil from another car.
I am just plain scared, that engine got killed, because someone did't pay attention while performing his job.
I 'll got some new info monday, after visit in the service dept. I think, best thing is to tow that poor car to the dealer.
c ya l8er
Krzys, smell the oil. I didn't think of this until you mentioned the feel: It would smell like diesel if they left the flush in it, and would be watered down.
As far as the metallic clanking sound you refer to, I can relate a similar sound that was caused by a loose bolt in the transmission of that Z28 (I drove it VERY hard). Another similar sound occurred when I blew the clutch on my Wrangler.
You surely had something out of the ordinary for a reputable shop to have suggested a crankcase flush; suggest that you first learn why they suggested flushing.
If the shop used a solvent such as diesel fuel or varsol, you could indeed have significant engine damage. These are not lubricants and should never be used in a crankcase; not even for a few seconds.
An overfill of 3/16" on the dipstick is about 0.25 quart; not really a problem...assuming it's the correct oil of course.
Is it possible that the shop performed a routine oil change and flushed the cooling system? That would correspond better to a routine maintenance schedule.
Your noise and starting problems may be serious; don't drive until you get better information.
The P & D4 shift indicator problem is likely a lamp-switch stuck or broken. Is is possible that the linkage is loose or broken. Neither problem will be expensive to fix but it should be done.
I have '95 Saturn SL with 40k. Recently I discovered that it was burning oil at a rate of 1 quart per 2,000 miles.
I called 3 Saturn dealerships and they all said the same thing, as if they were reading off the same paper," Saturns are supposed to burn oil. Because of the aluminum engines, it's normal for your car to burn 1 quart every 1500 miles"
One guy explained that the cylinder is a little bit oversized for the piston because the aluminum engine has a low temperature tolerance. Therefore a little oil gets burned in the combustion.
Does this sound right?! A car expected to burn oil?! I wished they told me this before I bought it.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
As to oil change frequency, as explained in some of the trade magazines, the primary need to replace engine oil is not its loss of lubricity but is due to deterioration of the detergents, emulsifiers, and other additives. There are the occasional stories of infrequent oil changes and "the engine still runs good." However, the far more common scenario is that of having saved $100 on oil changes....followed by major engine damage at 50,000 miles or less.
And if there is sludge you are trying to bust, instead of it being compartmentalized in the oil pan/oil pump intake strainer, you dissolve it and pump the garbage throughout the engine when you flush. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I would rather just drain the pan and clean the strainer than do the flush, if it was that essential. But by changing the oil and filter more frequently, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Nevertheless, it was a good study and I would be comfortable with any of the major oil brands. I don't know of current evidence to support the old adage that you should not mix brands, but why open that possibility? It is suggested that you pick one of the major brands in the viscosity recommended by the automaker, keep a quart or two in the trunk "just in case" and change oil and filter somewhat more often than the automaker requires for warranty compliance.
What do you think of synthetic? Know of any other good, objective written studies on it? I just bought a new car and am still debating whether to use synthetic. Will have this vehicle a long time, so want the engine to last. Have been told that I should wait until engine has 10K before using it, if at all. Haven't decided yet if it's worth it, given my driving habits. I don't drive like an old lady, but i don't drive like a NASCAR-driver-wannabe, either.
BTW, do you actually live in Spokane, Wa? I live in Seattle....in the "other" Wa.
I did do any research on synthetic oil, but just
by trying it on my '89 Maxima and '83 Celica for the last 3 yrs, I could tell that it worked so well( I used Castrol synthetic). You can feel the difference when you step on the gas. The paddle is very smooth and light. I changed oil about 4K interval, and the synthetic still thin and is not so black as the regular oil. Maybe you should try it once to find out the difference. By the way, I think the difference is more easily observed on old cars.
Tung
I am certainly no expert on synthetic oil but I recall some of the evolution of this technology.
Mobil-1 was the first big player in synthetic lube for automobile engines. Early 1970's, I think. Three key points came to light.
* Engine gasketing was such that many engines would leak the synthetic oil but did not leak conventional motor oil. With time, I believe oil reformulations, and probably the improved gasket compositions, have essentially overcome this problem.
* Synthetic oil viscosity changes very little with temperature. This was, and continues to be, a major advantage in minimizing engine wear during cold starts. The question becomes a little tricky as regards "how cold" and "how many cold starts per season." My impression is that if you expect several starts at less than 0*F (engine temp, not garage temp), synthetic oil is justified. If almost all starts will be at 25+*F, conventional oil is essentially as good. Between these two conditions; I must defer to other authority.
* Synthetic oils were originally touted for their long life; 15,000 miles or more. This conflicted with auto manufacturer's warranties, and for good reason. Background: As a lubricant, synthetic is more stable and probably is good for many miles. But, any engine oil becomes contaminated, primarily from combustion products. For this reason both types of oils need to be changed .... at essentially the same frequency. There are many opinions on change-frequency (and I have my own) but please don't exceed 5000 miles on a car you plan to keep for some time.
I believe the only disadvantage to synthetic oil is cost. With the objective of having a good engine at 150,000+ miles, the oil price difference can be viewed as insurance. If you are in a warm climate, it becomes like flood insurance for a house on a hilltop.
I, too, have heard the suggestion that a new engine should not be converted to synthetic oil until ~10,000 miles; but I would like to hear more on this. For example, if I park my new car where it's likely to be -20*F, why should I wait to put in synthetic oil?
Anne, I am afraid my Washington ties are weak. I am a Spokane native but left for southeastern US at a very young age in 1945.
Spokane: I, too, have wondered about the magicalness of waiting until 10K miles to switch to synthetic. No one has explained to me yet why 10K and not 5K, or 3K, or 20K for that matter is the "best" time to switch.
Since I live in Seattle, the car doesn't have to start at temps below 25 degrees F very often. I do, however, like the idea of the more stable viscosity, higher flash point, and stronger film strenth of synthetic oil. Also, in the summer I'll be driving to Colorado and will encounter temps in the 90's along the way. It would be nice to have synthetic in the engine for prolonged 75-80 mph driving in hot ambient temps. Doesn't seem like it's a good idea to switch back an forth between synthetic and dino oil, which is another argument for synthetic. Haven't yet decided to use it, though.
Spokane, do you use Castrol's 5-30 or 5-50? The discount store i go to stocks only 5-50. That seems like too wide viscosity range.
and much less noise from the engine, and I think
that is due to less friction in the engine block.
To my simple mind, my engine probably wears slowlier.
Tung
Thank you for your input and the research you did. I am trying to determine what type of oil that would give my '94 Honda Accord (with vtec engine) the best performance and the best chance for longevity. What type of oil (standard or synthetic/brand) would you recommend? Also, are there any brands that you tend to like the best?
I am most comfortable staying with the manufacturer's suggested viscosity range.
I don't know that all the major oil companies produce a 5W-30; but Castrol does indeed make it. It should be fairly common; you might check other stores.
You asked about any formal comparison testing of synthetic versus conventional oils. It certainly exists but I can't put my hands on it and therefore can't quantify the engine longevity advantage for synthetic oil in mild temperatures. I have no doubt of the improved power during cold operation. This is important for emergency vehicles but of limited practical value for the rest of us..... We really should drive "gently" for the first few miles regardless of oil type. With your knowledge of flash point, viscosity stability, and film strength; you seem better poised than most of us to make the decision on synthetic oil. I will offer one observation: The cost difference for synthetic over conventional oil is about $2.50 per qt. If the crankcase holds four qts, and you change oil at 3K intervals, your added cost is $500 for 150K miles. Well worth it if you encounter extreme heat or cold. With your climate and you obvious "compassion for your engine", it seems the economics of synthetic oil become a tough call.
I find it also of interest to note the "cold-stop" phenomena. Consider the driver who parks his car in the driveway at 5 PM and and at 9 PM moves the car into the garage for the night. He has thus shut down a cold engine which has a higher-than-normal concentration of combustion products in the crankcase due to the rich fuel mixture associated with cold starting. This contamination condenses and ultimately mixes with the oil. This practice thus increases engine wear/contamination from the extra cold starts and further increases the rate of oil contamination from the extra "cold stops."
Interior design was nice though....
The car then attracted a large crowd of people who couldn't believe their eyes.
Under the valve cover was a solid mass of sludge! The valve cover itself had at least an inch of sludge inside of it.
The (K-Mart brand) oil filter must have weighed five pounds!
The technicians in the shop had NEVER seen worse!
What a miserable case of neglect!
However...after THREE engine flushes and oil changes, this tough little car perked right up.
The cylinder leakdown test was about the same as a new car.
Amazing how much abuse some cars can take.
What did your technicians use to flush the engine? Did they just use oil or something else?
Dave
To C13 (post #97)--if it's a Chrysler product using that short filter, switch to a MotorCraft FL-1A (or name-brand equivalent) IF THERE's ROOM. I've done that on both my Jeeps.
To gchernyal (# 139)--my (now-sold) Cherokee required transfer-case and differential oil changing at something like 18,000-mile and 12,000-mile intervals, so it's not just the Troopers!
Interesting tidbit--engine oils and gear oils (and aircraft oils and industrial oils, also) are rated on a different viscosity scale, so that at 40 degrees C., SAE 30 engine oil is about the same viscosity as 85W SAE gear oil. (Source for this info is an EXCELLENT summary of lubes by 'Four Wheeler' magazine. E-mail me including your mailing address if you want a copy.)
A Chrysler product indeed!
Unlike most owners who are advocating using cheap oil and waiting 5000-7000 miles before changes, your vehicles sound like ones that might actually be worth owning when you trade them in!
Jeffrey,
I think it's great when a person takes exceptional care of their vehicles. I do the too.
I do think, however, that you go WAY overboard. But, hey, if it makes you happy...:)
You've made the point that the Civic is a very fine car. That's fine, but personally, I'm much more interested in the answer to the question about what was used to flush the engine. Could you, would you please ask and let us know?
Also, is that all your shop did? Flush the engine? I presume the valve cover was cleaned while it was off. Was the oil pan taken down also and cleaned? I would think that's the proper procedure a first-class mechanic might follow. Running some engine-cleaning solvent though it seems like a bush-league approach, especially since you claim no one had ever before seen an engine this sludged up. If you didn't drop the pan, how do you know there isn't still a lot of sludge still there?
isellhondas--if you, too, take exceptional care of your vehicles, on what do you thing I'm going WAY (your emphasis) overboard?
My next lube-related porjects will be to determine that Red Line's ATF and diff lubes meet Chrysler's requirements for the new 4(5)-speed auto trans, QT2 transfercase and gerotor-equipped diffs. We'll see.
Note on auto-trans oil changing--Chrysler indicates specifically that the torgue converter in this new 4(5)-speed trans does NOT have a drain plug and that NO attempt should be made to drain it. Of course, this isn't the only AT not having a drain plug. I always felt that one was changing only half of the oil without draining the converter. Oh well...
Nah, I really don't have much brand loyalty. I just like to ridicule Chrysler, or now Kreisler.
My car's a Honda, and it's true that they seem to go to a smaller replacement filter every year. Hard to imagine that that surface area could be adequate. Seems like a dumb move. They might have larger sizes. I never thought to ask for them.
What do you think of those kits for relocating your oil filter to a more convenient location? Actually it's not the location that bothers me, but I'd love to have the thing installed threaded side up, so that when you unscrew it, it doesn't spill. Side mounting is silly.
This does not work on some cars ...and perhaps works with only a few brands/sizes of filters.
But, Anne, it does work on the smaller Honda engines so maybe it's worth a try on your cars.
Of, course, they pulled the pan, cleaned it along with the valve cover and looked things over.
My point was not to sing the praises of Honda engines but to express my dismay of people who can pay a lot of money for something and neglect it in such a fashion.