Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Engine Oil--A slippery subject
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I called Castrol a while back and seem to recall they said their blend was 30% synthetic but I could be wrong. I do remember them saying that their blend has the highest % of synthetic of any blend on the market. Call Castrol's cust. serv. and ask them.
Please help. Just last friday my girlfriend made 30.000 miles service to her 96 Honda Civic hatch.
The guy at service dept. told her that her car needs engine flush (30.200 miles on odometer).
They did flushing, put new oil filter and filled
engine with new oil. Today is Saturday and Civic can't start. Cranks up fine, but some strange metalic noise comes up. Also, at the display panel I see highlighted Park and D4 positions at gears display. After 7-8 starts, engine came up, but some metallic noise and some sort of clicking came out from running engine. I checked dipstick and it showed oil level above high mark. I think some #$$@&%e screwed up something. We are both afraid of moving that car around. If someone has any opinion, please post. Thank you.
Thank you for your input. I was't aware that they *could not drain engine after the flush*. The dipstick shows oil level almost 1/8-3/16 above high mark, when engine is cold. I just opened the hood and checked it up. Got some oil between my finger and it has some strange feel. In *my* words it is not too slipery. More likely like tranie oil. Will make comparison with oil from another car.
I am just plain scared, that engine got killed, because someone did't pay attention while performing his job.
I 'll got some new info monday, after visit in the service dept. I think, best thing is to tow that poor car to the dealer.
c ya l8er
Krzys, smell the oil. I didn't think of this until you mentioned the feel: It would smell like diesel if they left the flush in it, and would be watered down.
As far as the metallic clanking sound you refer to, I can relate a similar sound that was caused by a loose bolt in the transmission of that Z28 (I drove it VERY hard). Another similar sound occurred when I blew the clutch on my Wrangler.
You surely had something out of the ordinary for a reputable shop to have suggested a crankcase flush; suggest that you first learn why they suggested flushing.
If the shop used a solvent such as diesel fuel or varsol, you could indeed have significant engine damage. These are not lubricants and should never be used in a crankcase; not even for a few seconds.
An overfill of 3/16" on the dipstick is about 0.25 quart; not really a problem...assuming it's the correct oil of course.
Is it possible that the shop performed a routine oil change and flushed the cooling system? That would correspond better to a routine maintenance schedule.
Your noise and starting problems may be serious; don't drive until you get better information.
The P & D4 shift indicator problem is likely a lamp-switch stuck or broken. Is is possible that the linkage is loose or broken. Neither problem will be expensive to fix but it should be done.
I have '95 Saturn SL with 40k. Recently I discovered that it was burning oil at a rate of 1 quart per 2,000 miles.
I called 3 Saturn dealerships and they all said the same thing, as if they were reading off the same paper," Saturns are supposed to burn oil. Because of the aluminum engines, it's normal for your car to burn 1 quart every 1500 miles"
One guy explained that the cylinder is a little bit oversized for the piston because the aluminum engine has a low temperature tolerance. Therefore a little oil gets burned in the combustion.
Does this sound right?! A car expected to burn oil?! I wished they told me this before I bought it.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
As to oil change frequency, as explained in some of the trade magazines, the primary need to replace engine oil is not its loss of lubricity but is due to deterioration of the detergents, emulsifiers, and other additives. There are the occasional stories of infrequent oil changes and "the engine still runs good." However, the far more common scenario is that of having saved $100 on oil changes....followed by major engine damage at 50,000 miles or less.
And if there is sludge you are trying to bust, instead of it being compartmentalized in the oil pan/oil pump intake strainer, you dissolve it and pump the garbage throughout the engine when you flush. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I would rather just drain the pan and clean the strainer than do the flush, if it was that essential. But by changing the oil and filter more frequently, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Nevertheless, it was a good study and I would be comfortable with any of the major oil brands. I don't know of current evidence to support the old adage that you should not mix brands, but why open that possibility? It is suggested that you pick one of the major brands in the viscosity recommended by the automaker, keep a quart or two in the trunk "just in case" and change oil and filter somewhat more often than the automaker requires for warranty compliance.
What do you think of synthetic? Know of any other good, objective written studies on it? I just bought a new car and am still debating whether to use synthetic. Will have this vehicle a long time, so want the engine to last. Have been told that I should wait until engine has 10K before using it, if at all. Haven't decided yet if it's worth it, given my driving habits. I don't drive like an old lady, but i don't drive like a NASCAR-driver-wannabe, either.
BTW, do you actually live in Spokane, Wa? I live in Seattle....in the "other" Wa.
I did do any research on synthetic oil, but just
by trying it on my '89 Maxima and '83 Celica for the last 3 yrs, I could tell that it worked so well( I used Castrol synthetic). You can feel the difference when you step on the gas. The paddle is very smooth and light. I changed oil about 4K interval, and the synthetic still thin and is not so black as the regular oil. Maybe you should try it once to find out the difference. By the way, I think the difference is more easily observed on old cars.
Tung
I am certainly no expert on synthetic oil but I recall some of the evolution of this technology.
Mobil-1 was the first big player in synthetic lube for automobile engines. Early 1970's, I think. Three key points came to light.
* Engine gasketing was such that many engines would leak the synthetic oil but did not leak conventional motor oil. With time, I believe oil reformulations, and probably the improved gasket compositions, have essentially overcome this problem.
* Synthetic oil viscosity changes very little with temperature. This was, and continues to be, a major advantage in minimizing engine wear during cold starts. The question becomes a little tricky as regards "how cold" and "how many cold starts per season." My impression is that if you expect several starts at less than 0*F (engine temp, not garage temp), synthetic oil is justified. If almost all starts will be at 25+*F, conventional oil is essentially as good. Between these two conditions; I must defer to other authority.
* Synthetic oils were originally touted for their long life; 15,000 miles or more. This conflicted with auto manufacturer's warranties, and for good reason. Background: As a lubricant, synthetic is more stable and probably is good for many miles. But, any engine oil becomes contaminated, primarily from combustion products. For this reason both types of oils need to be changed .... at essentially the same frequency. There are many opinions on change-frequency (and I have my own) but please don't exceed 5000 miles on a car you plan to keep for some time.
I believe the only disadvantage to synthetic oil is cost. With the objective of having a good engine at 150,000+ miles, the oil price difference can be viewed as insurance. If you are in a warm climate, it becomes like flood insurance for a house on a hilltop.
I, too, have heard the suggestion that a new engine should not be converted to synthetic oil until ~10,000 miles; but I would like to hear more on this. For example, if I park my new car where it's likely to be -20*F, why should I wait to put in synthetic oil?
Anne, I am afraid my Washington ties are weak. I am a Spokane native but left for southeastern US at a very young age in 1945.
Spokane: I, too, have wondered about the magicalness of waiting until 10K miles to switch to synthetic. No one has explained to me yet why 10K and not 5K, or 3K, or 20K for that matter is the "best" time to switch.
Since I live in Seattle, the car doesn't have to start at temps below 25 degrees F very often. I do, however, like the idea of the more stable viscosity, higher flash point, and stronger film strenth of synthetic oil. Also, in the summer I'll be driving to Colorado and will encounter temps in the 90's along the way. It would be nice to have synthetic in the engine for prolonged 75-80 mph driving in hot ambient temps. Doesn't seem like it's a good idea to switch back an forth between synthetic and dino oil, which is another argument for synthetic. Haven't yet decided to use it, though.
Spokane, do you use Castrol's 5-30 or 5-50? The discount store i go to stocks only 5-50. That seems like too wide viscosity range.
and much less noise from the engine, and I think
that is due to less friction in the engine block.
To my simple mind, my engine probably wears slowlier.
Tung
Thank you for your input and the research you did. I am trying to determine what type of oil that would give my '94 Honda Accord (with vtec engine) the best performance and the best chance for longevity. What type of oil (standard or synthetic/brand) would you recommend? Also, are there any brands that you tend to like the best?
I am most comfortable staying with the manufacturer's suggested viscosity range.
I don't know that all the major oil companies produce a 5W-30; but Castrol does indeed make it. It should be fairly common; you might check other stores.
You asked about any formal comparison testing of synthetic versus conventional oils. It certainly exists but I can't put my hands on it and therefore can't quantify the engine longevity advantage for synthetic oil in mild temperatures. I have no doubt of the improved power during cold operation. This is important for emergency vehicles but of limited practical value for the rest of us..... We really should drive "gently" for the first few miles regardless of oil type. With your knowledge of flash point, viscosity stability, and film strength; you seem better poised than most of us to make the decision on synthetic oil. I will offer one observation: The cost difference for synthetic over conventional oil is about $2.50 per qt. If the crankcase holds four qts, and you change oil at 3K intervals, your added cost is $500 for 150K miles. Well worth it if you encounter extreme heat or cold. With your climate and you obvious "compassion for your engine", it seems the economics of synthetic oil become a tough call.
I find it also of interest to note the "cold-stop" phenomena. Consider the driver who parks his car in the driveway at 5 PM and and at 9 PM moves the car into the garage for the night. He has thus shut down a cold engine which has a higher-than-normal concentration of combustion products in the crankcase due to the rich fuel mixture associated with cold starting. This contamination condenses and ultimately mixes with the oil. This practice thus increases engine wear/contamination from the extra cold starts and further increases the rate of oil contamination from the extra "cold stops."
Interior design was nice though....
The car then attracted a large crowd of people who couldn't believe their eyes.
Under the valve cover was a solid mass of sludge! The valve cover itself had at least an inch of sludge inside of it.
The (K-Mart brand) oil filter must have weighed five pounds!
The technicians in the shop had NEVER seen worse!
What a miserable case of neglect!
However...after THREE engine flushes and oil changes, this tough little car perked right up.
The cylinder leakdown test was about the same as a new car.
Amazing how much abuse some cars can take.
What did your technicians use to flush the engine? Did they just use oil or something else?
Dave
To C13 (post #97)--if it's a Chrysler product using that short filter, switch to a MotorCraft FL-1A (or name-brand equivalent) IF THERE's ROOM. I've done that on both my Jeeps.
To gchernyal (# 139)--my (now-sold) Cherokee required transfer-case and differential oil changing at something like 18,000-mile and 12,000-mile intervals, so it's not just the Troopers!
Interesting tidbit--engine oils and gear oils (and aircraft oils and industrial oils, also) are rated on a different viscosity scale, so that at 40 degrees C., SAE 30 engine oil is about the same viscosity as 85W SAE gear oil. (Source for this info is an EXCELLENT summary of lubes by 'Four Wheeler' magazine. E-mail me including your mailing address if you want a copy.)
A Chrysler product indeed!
Unlike most owners who are advocating using cheap oil and waiting 5000-7000 miles before changes, your vehicles sound like ones that might actually be worth owning when you trade them in!
Jeffrey,
I think it's great when a person takes exceptional care of their vehicles. I do the too.
I do think, however, that you go WAY overboard. But, hey, if it makes you happy...:)
You've made the point that the Civic is a very fine car. That's fine, but personally, I'm much more interested in the answer to the question about what was used to flush the engine. Could you, would you please ask and let us know?
Also, is that all your shop did? Flush the engine? I presume the valve cover was cleaned while it was off. Was the oil pan taken down also and cleaned? I would think that's the proper procedure a first-class mechanic might follow. Running some engine-cleaning solvent though it seems like a bush-league approach, especially since you claim no one had ever before seen an engine this sludged up. If you didn't drop the pan, how do you know there isn't still a lot of sludge still there?
isellhondas--if you, too, take exceptional care of your vehicles, on what do you thing I'm going WAY (your emphasis) overboard?
My next lube-related porjects will be to determine that Red Line's ATF and diff lubes meet Chrysler's requirements for the new 4(5)-speed auto trans, QT2 transfercase and gerotor-equipped diffs. We'll see.
Note on auto-trans oil changing--Chrysler indicates specifically that the torgue converter in this new 4(5)-speed trans does NOT have a drain plug and that NO attempt should be made to drain it. Of course, this isn't the only AT not having a drain plug. I always felt that one was changing only half of the oil without draining the converter. Oh well...
Nah, I really don't have much brand loyalty. I just like to ridicule Chrysler, or now Kreisler.
My car's a Honda, and it's true that they seem to go to a smaller replacement filter every year. Hard to imagine that that surface area could be adequate. Seems like a dumb move. They might have larger sizes. I never thought to ask for them.
What do you think of those kits for relocating your oil filter to a more convenient location? Actually it's not the location that bothers me, but I'd love to have the thing installed threaded side up, so that when you unscrew it, it doesn't spill. Side mounting is silly.
This does not work on some cars ...and perhaps works with only a few brands/sizes of filters.
But, Anne, it does work on the smaller Honda engines so maybe it's worth a try on your cars.
Of, course, they pulled the pan, cleaned it along with the valve cover and looked things over.
My point was not to sing the praises of Honda engines but to express my dismay of people who can pay a lot of money for something and neglect it in such a fashion.