Engine Oil--A slippery subject

blugill

With 40,000 miles in 17 months, you have to be doing a lot of hiway miles. When you are doing hiway miles the oil doesn't waer out nearly as fast.

If you had a twin with an identical car and miles, and you drove exactly the same bothing putting 40,000 miles one the car, with one difference, the twin didn't change the oil there would be no measureable difference in the engines!

Now I would never go more than 6,000 miles between changes, but 40,000 miles in 17 months is the easiest driving you can do to an engine and there is no need to do any more often.

If you were the proverbial little old lady who one drives 2 miles to church on sunday, and 1 mile to the grocery store every other week, you would need to change the oil every 100 miles or less! Even then I'd rather you car with 100,000 miles then hers with 5,000 miles!

In other words, don't waste your time and money changing the oil that often, instead buy a good synthetic which claims that you can double your time between changes, and then double it. (which works out to 4,000 to 5,000 miles and that is a good number)

Note, if there is something that you are not telling me the above advice may not be correct. (for instance if you have a alternator/welder so you can drive to remote areas and fix steal bridges, and thus drive 40,000 miles, but had the engine running with the transmission in netural for many more hours not on the odometer) Know your driving habbits.

igloomaster

Thanks for the tip.
Is it really worth switching to synthetic oil now that the truck has 82,000 miles on it?
I do a combination of Highway and City driving, living in the Boston area, but with relatives in Maine. The truck has a 2.3 liter, 4 cylinder engine, and I load the truck up with weight lots of times because I am a Jazz drummer. I do about 75mph in the 65mph zones, and 65mph in the 55mph zones.
What about that stuff SLICK 50? Do these types of additives help out? I just don't want to run into a situation where the engine starts burning oil after 100k. Anything I can do to prevent that, I'll do it. I need this truck to last.

ALSO, to pick the brains of anyone out there willing to INDULGE me, as I am a NOVICE:
I am buying a 1999 Honda Civic Hatchback Automatic next month. Should I start this car off with Synthetic Oils like Mobil One from the beginning, and continue to use them for the life of the car?

The car is so small that I can slide under it (I owned one before), thus I have to do the Oil changes at these speedy lube joints, like Valvoline, and the cost of the oil change is really steep. Any suggestions?

ccotenj

thanks for the response on the bmw filters and light reset...

div2

jshu is dead on. Use oem filters. You can get them from BMW dealers at a 10-25 percent discount if you are a BMW Car Club member. The Peake Research tool is a quality unit and very simple to use. Don't reset the SI lights until they signal an oil service or inspection. Resetting the SI lights early screws up their logic sequence(trust me on this). While I have been using Mobil 1, I am switching to the BMW 5W-40 synthetic, since BMW has developed it to deal with the over 12,000 mile service intervals in the new models. As an added bonus, the cost per quart is $2.80 plus tax with my BMW CCA discount.

blugill

synthetic depends on the engine. If it is on its last legs. (you have not only been driving 75 once in a while, but due to the load you were doing 75 in third gear) IF your a normal driver, that engine is worth more than twice as many miles. If synthetic is the only way you will consider a normal (4-5 thousand) mile interval then it is worth it. Otherwise, there is no reason that regular dino juice won't work just fine for you.

Slick-50 has proven to reduce startup wear. They is evidence that it blocks small oil passages causing the bearings to fail early. (not enough evidence for me to say that it really does this, but some) I wouldn't consider it unless I was doing lots of driving where I stoped the engine several times an hour all day. Even then, a good oil should be enough. I personally consider it a waste of money, but if startup wear is all you care about it will help.

tonewheel

I'll preface my question by stating that I am a syn user who would never consider using an additive. OK...now, anybody seen the infomercial for a product called ZMax? More than a lubricant, it's main claim to fame is it's ability to clean a carbon-choked engine. Comments?

igloomaster

A friend of mine drives a VW Corrado with the VR6 (a V6 engine). He loves driving like everywhere is the Autobahn. He changes his oil every 5,000 miles, using only synthetic oils, and has been doing so for the life of the car. The car now has 80,000 miles on it. He passed me the other day, down shifted, and I saw some smoke come out of his tailpipe during the downshift/acceleration, and it was followed by a smell of burning oil. I've been needleing him to change his oil more frequently, and make sure that his levels are topped off in between changes. He claims that he doesn't need to do this because he uses synthetic oil.
I know that his car is burning some oil. Any comments about this? I would think that synthetic oils would stand up to his kind of aggressiveness with the gas...

jshu

My daily commute to work is approx 75 miles each way. 57 miles highway avg 65mph and 18 miles city avg 35mph. I drive approx 50k miles a year.

the on board computer on my 99 328i suggests oil change intervals at 16k miles. I've been doing the oil change at 8k miles with BMW synthetic 5w-40.

My plan is to keep the car for as long as the engine runs. Anyone think it's possible to get 300k or 400k miles out of this car with this oil service interval?

Also, the manual states coolant change every 4 years regardless of mileage. for me that would be close to 200k miles. anyone think I should change the coolant before that?

the auto transmission is suppose to be sealed and does not need fluid replacement for life. any truth in this?

thanks

ruking1

#420
It sounds like he threw a ring or something in the valve train is bad. It sounds like he is an aggressive engine rever. (extended used at or exceeding redline?or one or more high rev missed shift?) It would be a stretch to think that synthetic oil would bail him out.

mwikle

Many unbiased experts & engine OEMs do not recommend the addition of any oil additive to a compounded oil. The legal saga of Slick 50, and its less well known imitators, is well known. Quaker/Pennzoil now owns this brand, and apparently they did do some tests around the time of the consent decree. I am personally unclear as to what the Slick 50 test data actually supports in terms of typical product "in-use" results for most drivers. Current ILSAC GF-2 oils contain adequate EP (extreme pressure)additives to minimize startup wear for long engine life. It's not like the OEMs and oil companies haven't addressed startup wear--- they have. Also, make certain a good oil filter with a good backflow prevention valve is used (a fully charge oil filter ensures rapid pumping of oil to bearings), and use proper viscosity of oil, especially in the winter. I will probably never use oil additives in normal service life cars (tho' might use some motor honey before selling a hi-miler...cuts the leaks & smoke, cough! ).

Maybe a bit off topic, but someone asked (& it is 'additives'): For carbon removal, a polyetheramine (PEA) fuel additive is best. Chevron, Shell and some others make these complex chemicals for both gasolines and aftermarket fuel additive products. They also sell the "juice" (i.e. active ingredient of varying types and efficacies) to others gasoline brands, OEMs, and aftermaket fuel additive suppliers who rebrand and sell it. Chances are the small bottlers buy active juice from someone, pehaps cut it with solvent, and sell it.

Is zMax a lube additive? I cannnot recall hearing of a *lube* additive cleaning "carbon deposits". Nonetheless, zMax, in lube or not, may be great stuff, I just have no idea personally. I do know some aftermarket fuel additive products use cheaper non-PEA detergents that can leave combustion chamber deposits (but do clean injectors), others are perhaps mostly mineral spirits and a little additive (they clean like a good tank of normally additized major brand gasoline). Some are major manufacturer ingredients, carefully packaged, and work superbly. My advice is to stay with major brand fuel additive products, and the premium stuff within those brand families to clean your carbon. Note, if you use major brand gas there will not be much carbon to clean. There are several good ones at $7 to $10/bottle. Click & Clack recommend TECHRON(R) Concentrate and BG44K. There are other good ones too.

igloomaster

....somewhat related.....

What's the consensus on using "brand name" gasoline (like Mobil for $1.25/gallon up here in Boston) over using "discount" gasoline (like Global or Merit, currently at $1.15/gallon)???
My Dad always tells me to go with Mobil - "don't put that other cheap crap in your car". However, I hear that ALL gasoline must pass a government test before it can be used in automobiles, so it would all then be virtually the same. Any ideas?

pablo3q

Have just purchased a 1997 Mazda MPV and to change oil will have to pull a lower plastic cover. I found something called the Filter Lock- E-Z Drain Kit in the J C Whitney catalog. It lets you drain the oil from the pan with a valve that is controlled under the hood. It also re-locates the filter to an easier to reach spot under the hood. Does anyone have any experience with this or just a filter relocation adapter? The prior owner told me he has paid about $35 for oil changes and I don't want to incur that since I am out on the road a lot and sometimes have to go to the quick shops.

jshu

back in the mid 80's my father used to get gas from "discount" gas stations. After a couple of years, he started noticing a lot of pinging in the engine and the car was loosing power.
After seeing a lot of mechanics, they decided to take the engine apart to see what's going on.
it turned out the engine is rusting from the inside out. They did some tests and found a lot of water and other junk in the gas.
This was reported to the authorities and several gas stations were shut down.

Ever since, we've always used Mobil and have had no problems. For the small difference in price (usually only a few cents a gallon, or less then a dollar for a full tank) I wouldn't risk getting gas at a "discount" place.

igloomaster

was it the Gasoline the cheap stations were using, or was it the tanks that hold the gas that had the water and crap in them?
in other words, if I were to get discount gas at a station that had new tanks, would i still get the same result? or, if i were to get discount gas directly off of the boat it came in on.....

see my point? thanks!

guitarzan

It can be a combination. If a gas station doesn't sell much gas, then water inevitably builds up in the tank. Not only use the gas that your car responds best to, but purchase it from a station that is constantly busy, if possible.

Most stations have newer tanks anyways, because Federal law, I believe, requires tanks to be made of the newer materials. (Fiberglass, I believe.)

I yield to anyone who knows of water being intentionally added to gas. This sounds far-fetched, no?

guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference

jshu

It was a combination of both.
The station had high traffic flow (because of their lower price) so I don't think water built up due to the gas sitting in the tank for long periods of time. I think the water leaked into the tank from somewhere.

Also, the test results that the government did on that station showed that other chemicals were found in the gas that should not be there. The theory was that the station mixed in some "low" cost chemicals to help them reduce the amount of real gasoline pumped into your car, and thus they can lower the price they sell gas at.


#428 the new federal law requires all stations to have double walled tanks. not fiberglass. Usually the tanks are made of metal of some sort (steel or aluminum etc).
My parents recently had the tanks at their station replaced with the new double walled tanks.

The theory is that if the inner tank started leaking, a sensor between the two layers would detect the leak and set off an alarm in the control panel. And the outer tank would prevent the leak from being absorbed into the earth thus protecting the environment.

Also the new nozzles have to recirculate the gasoline "contaminated" air from your car's tank back into the underground tank and not let it out into the atmosphere.

blugill

Water is added to gas. Belive it or not, your car will get more power and milage (when hot) when the gasoilne has a small amount of water in. Typically 3% is used If I rember right. Anything over 5% makes it worse then no water at all.

I find that my truck barely runs on the cheaper gas, but works fine on others. Other cars work just fine on that gas.

Note that Mobil stations are independant,and can buy gas from anyone. My parents ran into one (and only one) bad Mobil station in one car.

hoho

This may be the wrong forum for this but what the heck.
My Concorde has documented ataements reguarding the useage of 87 octane and not anything over 89 Octane. I believe (I gotta re-read that part to be sure) that they even state that I should limit the use of 89 octane. My question is, even though the manufacturer has declared the perfered fuel be 87 octane am I looking at any problems later on?

guitarzan

Let's take this one over here

Which grade of Gasoline to use ?

guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference

hoho

great spot.

HoHo

mimelio

NAPA makes an excellent concrete cleaner that works well

igloomaster

I went into AutoZone friday to buy some Mobil one for the first time in my life. I always use regular dino juice, and change the oil frequently. I noticed that a small case of Mobil One - 6 quarts - cost $25.00, and a large case of about 16 quarts of regular dino juice was about $15.00.
I asked the sales associate about the differences, and he said that once I start to use synthetic oils in my truck, I can NEVER go back to using regular oils. He didn't have a reason why. He just said " cause it's bad if you go back ". IS THIS TRUE, and if so, WHY?

musclecarman

This is totally false. You can try synthetic and go back if you want. I also know a lot of people that use synthetic only in the winter because of their better cold starting qualities. Heck, they even sell synthetic blends that are half synthetic and half regular oil. The sales associate had no idea about what he was talking about, and there is no basis for it. I have been in the oil change business for 5 years now, and my dad has been in it for 20. This is just another one of thos myths that are floating out there.

igloomaster

thanks! you confirmed my suspicion!
have you ever blended them together during an oil change; like 2 quarts regular, 2 quarts synthetic, etc.?

musclecarman

I did blend some synthetic and some regular oil together once. The customer wanted valvoline durablend and we were out. I offered to mix 2.5 quarts of full synthetic with 2.5 quarts of regular and we did it with no problem. All the synthetic blends are a mix of synthetic and regular motor oil.

igloomaster

Hello
In a few days, I will be picking up my new 1999 Honda Civic Hatchback CX Automatic.
Is it still true that I need to change that new oil fairly soon, to clean out the new metal bits from the new engine?

valeks

I changed oil by myself and seems overfilled it by a quarter or so. Do I need to drain it a bit or I can live with that? That car does not burn oil (I am sure it does, but it is not noticeable so far).

spokane

Yes, you should drain out the surplus. Although oil changes should be done with the engine hot, suggest you do this with a cold engine. Drain some out and put the plug in finger-tight. Check to see if the level is correct and drain a little more if necessary. Tighten the drain plug.

Too much oil can get "churned" by the crankshaft and could lead to several types of problems depending on the engine type. If you have driven some with too much oil, suggest you check the PCV valve to be sure it's clean and free to operate properly.

markbuck

Have 8,500 miles on my new Silverado, been changing oil every 3,000 miles. Left the change algorithm un-reset to see when my truck thinks it needs it's oil changed. It triggered at 3,400 miles the first time and 3,600 miles the second time.
I will probably follow it's recommendation from now on with only two exceptions.
1) If the vehicle was to not get driven much, I would probably change at 3 to 4 months.
2) Very dusty conditions, would probably change oil earlier.

zderf

Synthetic oil have pluses and minuses. Pluses: longer engine life, better start-up lubrication, improved mileage, improved horsepower, cooler oil temps to mention a few.

Minuses: Expensive, and they will find leak paths you never knew you had. So expect some oil leakge at seals, gaskets, and porous metal parts which will "seep"(i.e. aluminum valve covers and oil pans).

igloomaster

MYTH OR MAGIC?

my grandfather used to substitute a quart of this stuff in with his regular oil every few oil changes.
he swore by it, but that was a long time ago.

DOES IT WORK? Pluses....minuses...?

blugill

Someone (popular science?) sent this stuff out to a chemist, and concluded that it was basic Exon oil with a few more additives that would be too expensive to track down further. (Exon may have been a contract such that it could be valvoline today,but maybe not)

So it is harmless, and many do swear by it. May not be helpful though.

#443, my understanding is synthetic will leak through old seals, but not modern ones. My '88 S10 never had a problem with synthtic, my dad's '80 pontiac had small leaks.

edwardh1

Consumer reports, one of the few groups ever to test oils, said additives were useless.
Odd, in a field this big there is so little real data, most of it is: "well , I change oil every 3000 miles and it works for me". This based on Jiffy lube marketing. Changing every 500 miles works too. Probably every 5000 miles does too and uses up less of out grandchildren's oil.

jasonttu

Here my dilema as miniscule as it may seem: I just purchased the 2K maxima and am getting ready to change the oil. The book recommends the 5w30 for cooler climate but says 10w30 is fine if you are in a warmer area. I drive like a bat out of hell most of the time, usually never below 70 and most of time near 85 and above. I'm down in South texas where temperatures are near 100 on a regular basis and winters never get lower than 40. Since this is my first brand new car I just wanted some advice on whether to use 10w30 or 5w30 in my climate and with my driving habits. Thanks in advance for the comments.
JT

mwikle

I'd say you are a 10W-30 kind of driver, even though 5W-30 is "preferred". The extra viscosity on the low end of a 10W-30 vs. 5W-30 will serve your type of driving very well by increasing the oil flim's resistance to failure slightly. As a former Texan, I can really relate to the mild winters (missed them a lot when I left) --- 10W-30 is fine to almost 0 F, though I'd use the 5W-30 if it was ever below, say, about 20 F (your owner's book may have a temperature chart to verify this).

10W-30 will use a bit more gas than 5W-30 (say 1 to 2%, if memory serves), but based on your driving habits (and cheap Texas gas), I'd bet that is not a major concern for you .

jasonttu

Thanks for the words of wisdom. That was the kind of answer I was looking for. The wide open Texas highways are calling my name. Thanks again.
JT

dhoff

I noticed that nobody answered your question yesterday so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Honda uses what is called a "break-in" oil. It is supposedly specially formulated to help the engine wear in. Given that, I'd do whatever your owner's manual recommends.

Having said that, I changed the oil on our new minivan at about 1,600 miles instead of letting it go til the 3,750 the manufacturer recommended. Of course, I don't know if a break-in oil was used in it or not.

Hope this helps.

Dave

igloomaster

thanks!
i'll check the manual when i get it.
steve

popepad

Hey blugill, it's EXXON!!!!! How many times have
you seen the big red sign? LOOK: E-X-X-O-N.
GET IT!!?? TWO (2) X's. Godalmighty!

musclecarman

5W30 is actually the same as 10W30 at running temperature. Stright 30, 10W30, and 5W30 are all 30 weight oils at running temperature. The Number before the W (which stands for winter, not weight) has to do with the "pour point." The first number relates to the temperature at which the oil will not flow or pour freely. Based on this, 5W30 is superior to 10W30. When at running temperature they perform the same, but 5W30 gives superior start up protection. Numerous test have conluded that 5W30 is definitely better than 10W30. That is a major reason it is recommended on most newer vehicles.

ruking1

Yes I would do the 5-30w also. I actually use the 5-30w in a Mobil One.

mwikle

The major reason engine manufactures recommend 5W-30 is gas mileage. That is my understanding based on conversations with additive suppliers and colleagues responsible for OEM contacts. You may have different sources, and I am not aware of any public tests beyond the obvious issues of very cold oil (near pour point) causing starvation. 5W does provide better start-up lubrication at very low temps - not an issue in many places. Some engines may have clearances & passages a bit better optimized for a lighter oil too.

5W-30 is blended with a lighter base oil to get the "5W" part. 10W starts with a heavier base oil. Viscosity Improver (VI) is the multivis part, there is more VI in a 5W-30. The lubrication is from the base oil, hence a 10W has a slightly thicker "base" film than a 5W and is "tougher". VI is not a lubricant per se..

All said ***none of this will likely result in measurable end-user issue***. But in Texas, if allowed by OEM spec., I'd still pick a 10W vs 5W unless I cared about gas milage as top issue.

markbuck

Used to run straight 30wt in the summer. Chevron Delo 100 or Shell Rotella in my diesel. Went back to multi-vis in winter.

Buddy did similar thing in his VW Golf. We both had good luck.

I run 10W30 in summer and 5W30 in winter in my new Silverado.

Same reasoning as previous post. Less VI improvers is better....

abm1

Less VI's are definately an advantage. As others have alluded to, they don't lubricate, just control viscosity. They also tend to shear in high stress situations. This is part of the aging of the oil.

Now to my point- I use synth in both my cars because for the weights I need, they don't contain any VI's. One is spec'ed for 5w-30, the other for the manufacturer's 5w-40 synth. It is my understanding that the uniformity of the synth base gives them the ability to formulate a wider viscosity range before needing VI's, as compared to mineral oils.

Adam

midlifecrisis

Can someone tell me why no matter where I take my cars for oil changes they spill excess oil on the engine and it smells like burnt oil for several weeks afterward? This is not rocket science here. Why can't they get the oil and filter changed without making such a mess? I know some of the filters on newer cars are difficult to get to, but come on. I don't want a new car to smell horrible when I'm using it!

ruking1

#458
I have rarely seen an oil filter with the screw side up (so when you unscrew it the oil stays in the filter by gravity, let alone enough room to move around.)

Perhaps a squirt from a bottle of simple green before you start it up, will disolve the oil before it has a chance to heat up and smell.

spokane

I agree that the spilled oil is irritating. On many engines, however, some spillage is unavoidable because the filter is not mounted open-end-up and the old filter is full of oil when it's removed. On some engines, there's also drainback from the engine oil galleries.

However, a careful person will wipe away almost all of the spillage such that you should have very little odor ...and no odor after ~10 miles of highway driving.

If you change your own oil, here's an interesting observation. The oil filter has a polymer check- valve at it's inlet. When the oil is cool, this valve is sufficiently rigid to prevent escape of oil on some types of filters. You do need to drain the crankcase when the engine is hot, but removal of the filter can wait if you have the time. After about two hours, the cooled oil and check valve will allow the filter to be loosened and removed without spillage on some types of engines/filters.

The two-hour delay is impractical for most people, of course, and it won't solve the problem in all cases. A tool consisting of a sharp puncture device combined with a funnel could be used to puncture the old filter and drain it through a tube to the catch-pan. This would virtually eliminate spillage onto any engine, chassis, or exhaust system parts. Does anyone know of a shop that has such an anti-spill device?

pablo3q

Wouldn't a remote mounted oil filter help that problem?

spokane

Yes. Good idea. If space permits, a remote mounted oil filter could do away with the hassle of spillage or the awkward wait-until-it-cools procedure.

However, Pablo, with the crowded engine compartments, won't it be difficult find a suitable remote-mount location on many of the transverse-engine cars?

hoho

If you change your own oil and you spill some, clean it up. Squirt Brake Clean (or equal) around the area to remove the small amount of oil.

If you have it serviced somewhere and you have the same problem advise the manager of it. Insist they clean it up.

I agree with "spokane" that the smell usually goes away in a few miles so it really isn't a problem (for me). Although I can easily see that it could be a serious problem for someone that may have a medical problem that is agravated by the smoke or aroma.

LSC