I share your disgust, cooterbfd. Absolutely no reason for that, none whatsoever. With the advent of the internet (thank you AG!), I have never since gone to a mall or Wally World for Christmas shopping. All internet, no shipping charges (most times). I just feel very sorry for that poor man's family.
The reason the US and Japanese companies have different total costs for their American workers? The US companies have been employing American workers for almost a hundred years. They have a lot of retirees. Most of the Japanese auto plants in the US are less than 20 years old. They have almost no retirees, so their costs are only for active workers.
So, why is this pernicious falsehood about inflated wages bouncing around the public discourse on the auto industry? Several reasons.
First, it demonizes unions and their members as greedy and not interested in the long-term health and profitability of the corporations with which they sign contracts. It also ignores the fact that in 2007 the UAW signed a landmark contract in which they assumed future responsibility for healthcare for their members employed by the Big Three. The auto companies paid in to a fund, which will be administered by the UAW. Over the long haul, this is expected to radically decrease the auto companies' legacy costs (although the best way to help company and union is to pass national health care).
Making false claims inflating the earnings of unionized workers is also part of the Republicans' long-held practice of class warfare. It's intended to gin up envy and disgust at people making a good hourly wage. Few people would be unsympathetic to an auto worker for making $58,000 per year. But more would feel unsympathetic if they thought that same auto worker made $73 per hour, which over the course of a year is over $150,000.
Finally, harping on imaginary and inflated wages for workers is a way to distract from one of the big problems with the US auto companies (and most US corporations in any sector): executive compensation. For instance, in 2007 General Motors CEO Rick Waggoner made close to $20 million in total compensation.
Are you surprised that conservatives are playing with math to come up with the false figure of $73 per hour for UAW members working at the Big Three, while saying nothing about a Big Three CEO making $9,500.00 per hour?
German Auto Industry not just a place for the workers to go read the funny papers like at GM. So much for cradle to grave mentality.
The management of the auto manufacturer BMW has introduced measures that shift the burden of the recession and the crisis in the automobile industry entirely onto the workforce. In this, the management is working hand in hand with the BMW Works Council and IG Metall union bureaucrats in Bavaria and Saxony.
Production at the company's main plant in Munich will be stopped in mid-December until January 9 next year. The rapid decrease in sales—in October alone, sales figures sank by 8.3 percent—is cited by management as grounds for halting production early on December 8. Negotiations with the Works Council to this end are presently taking place.
He explained how the situation had fundamentally changed at BMW over the last few years. Compared with those in other companies, BMW workers were relatively better off. Pay used to be clearly above the usual level for the industry, and there were other generous benefits. Today, workloads have increased and there are constant attacks on wages.
Franc B., who also has 35 years' employment at BMW, reported on the harsher conditions with "ever fewer people on the production line having to complete more work."
Asked about the role of the Works Council leadership and the IG Metall trade union, he stated clearly, "They're all in cahoots. If a new shop steward is elected, the first thing he does is speak with the boss."
I'm inclined to believe that they were the unemployed CEOs who line up at the doors to augment their greedy golden parachutes. Besides we all know that welfare mongers shop at trendy upscale retailers.
It boggles my mind at the way the masses think. I would no more go shopping today of all days in the year. First off you are right. I can beat just about any store price on ANYTHING by going online. I was surprised the people on Long Island are so barbaric. I think of that as a Genteel area where Seinfeld lives.
Yes. The way I see it, because I do have a 1999 ES300(110K) and 2001 RX300 (90K), is that the oil passages are such that they are not tolerant to any misuse/abuse. If you changed oil every 5000 miles, there would be no problems.
3,500,000 motors and many with timely oil changes DOCUMENTED by Toyota themselves. Toyota stuck it to everyone who owns one of these millions of tainted cars. Don't blame lawyers, don't blame the little old ladies who change their oil in a timely manner as suggested by Toyota, and don't praise Toyota for "handling things better than other auto producers." Blame Toyota, since it was Toyota that produced several million garbage engines. And don't forget to tell the truth the next time you get a questionnaire in the mail asking about your Toyota. The best you could do is to pull your valve covers to look for signs of sludge. I have torn down many engines and could remove those 10-32ish small screws and have a better look. But, I'm more of a rocket scientist and have extraordinary skills and abilities. Not that I like to too my own horn, its just fact.
Final thought to ponder: The worst maintenance record of any GM vehicle right now is the Pontiac Vibe. You know, the car made for GM by Toyota.
For the UAW, their contracts have artificially inflated their salaries vs. what the market will bear.
The cost gets passed on to the consumer. Like in shoplifting, companies naming stadiums/arenas, CEO abuse, superstar endorsements, and even labor costs. Are any of these natural to the supply/demand curves? Hell no, they are just factored in. Economics is not an exact science. Marketing is where its at. AOL can flood the postal mail boxes of America and become the number one ISP (internet service provider), inferior, however, they own the lions share. Then Intel can own the processor market over a superior AMD. Most computer guru's will tell you that Apple's MAC was light years ahead of the PC (DELL), however, DELL has the advantage. My favorite is the way Apple took the Sony Walkman down and has the IPOD as the "brand". They don't intend to give it up either, many new cars have an IPOD dock. IPOD has been improving to keep this lions share of the market with generation after generation coming out yearly.
So building the best product at the best price isn't an axiom as having the best marketing and not resting on the past. This is very important in the selection of stock, as the best products aren't automatically the winner.
As I recall if the labor was free on the GM cars, the price would be 5% less on the cars. Not enough to make or break and or cause a buying mania. So its as they say, the present economy and not the UAW which plagues the automakers. To lay all the blame on the UAW is a pathetic attempt to scapegoat and unfortunately we had no such luck in the banking meltdown/bailout as to find the UAW as a scapegoat. Maybe you could find a third party to blame? Lets say we blame all our woes on the illegals? Why not? Hitler blamed the Jews for post WWI fate.
Amazing comment from a very polarizing figure in American History.
Lincoln preserved the union and is the grandfather of the GOP. I suppose you advocate having slaves even today?
Emancipation proclamation is the only thing which stands in the way of keeping America from blaming labor for the Detroit's Big Three's downfall. If left to these brilliant CEO's these companies would be in the black. I'm just not too sure that they would have fared any better than the banks. Perhaps you could argue that?
The managements main responsibility is the shareholder.
The UAW's main responsibility is their membership/the rank and file.
You fail to state where this chart comes from? Then you fail to mention that these unions were in fact voted in by workers and didn't just show up uninvited.
Which country are these Toyota workers representing? Does this chart also factor in the national health they enjoy?
Do you really think American factory workers get that much more than Japanese? Then, you need to study your economics a bit better, professor! The American wages include health care -- in Japan, health care is provided by the government.
Moreover, most Japanese workers receive the Asian custom of a 13th month of salary (that is, one extra month at the end of the year as a "bonus" but it's a standard part of pay in many companies). Is this true of Japanese car companies? Economics professor doesn't talk about this part of Japanese employee compensation.
So, if we're comparing American professor salaries to auto workers, we should consider that the American economics professor making the posting thinks wages with health care equals wages without health care. Hmmm. Maybe, the professor should go back to school. Or, maybe, the problem is, our auto companies are as bad at economics as professor is!
I for one cannot understand why American auto companies, put at a terrible competitive disadvantage by our idiotic health care system, don't lobby for something more sensible. Perhaps, its because the execs at the auto companies are too smart to invest in auto company stock, and go for the profitable businesses, like American insurance companies!
BTW, why not include German and other European workers in this comparison? Hmm. Do European workers get more? What has the recent slippage in the dollar done to this comparison? Not questions economic professor seems to have thought about.
Please don't bring non sense from think tanks or foundations here. They are paid for by right wing groups and lack any peer review that would be present in higher education. The mere fact that they would factor in the past liabilities of retired workers and make them seem like current workers enjoy these as wages is just silly. Yeah, there are many retires and they are still getting benefits. Just as there are seniors out there whom get an entitlement every month. There is no agreement that life expectancy and medical science wasn't factored in when FDR enacted the social security system and 1% wasn't enough to support the system as it stands today. However, we need to make good with these folks. Fact is that in general and on average the current retire expends all that he/she put in (including interest) within five years of retirement. But we as Americans, being blessed by so much, go beyond and take care of our own. Thanksgiving is a time for us to reflect on what blessings we have and not to envy others, nor pass judgment on others. No matter what the case, there is always someone out there in more dire circumstances.
They did not mention the Japanese work ethic puts the job ahead of family. Something the Japanese automakers wrestled with when they started building auto plants in the USA.
Workers in the worst of jobs in the USA are better off than most of the World. Unless of course you live in a city of barbarians that trample you trying to buy Cheap Chinese goods.
"Lug nuts is a honest living and no shame in a person wanting to provide for themselves and their families"...
No one has doubted the honesty of making a living...but the comments at that time, about 80 posts back, was that the world is changing and the people have no choice but to adapt or die...
From the 1700s to the late 1900s, all you needed was a strong back, and the majority could get by with little formal education...it simply was not needed to get a job...
Technology changed all that, and the needs of Society's employers changed faster than the population at large...from, say, 1980, we had robots, computers, now performing many tasks that used to be performed by someone's strong back...while the worker may have a "useful life" of 40 years, the need for his strong back literally vanished within 10 years (from 1980-1990 and beyond), but his level of education was stuck...suddenly, the man (and woman) who could easily survive with a 3rd or 6th or 10th grade education was left out in the cold, being told that he did not have the skills and education to compete in the "new economy" simply because we didn't need his strong back anymore...
So, while a compassionate society will "carry" the worker forward, we can only do it for so long, and then the worker must literally upgrade themselves and their skills...easy???...probably the most difficult thing in the world for the uneducated laborer...but, no matter how difficult, it still must be done...we, as a society, cannot continue to pay someone to sit at home while while the world passes him by...sadly, the only position comes down to "sink or swim"...and the worker must pull themselves up by their bootstraps or we will leave them behind...there is no other choice...
So, the demand for the unskilled worker decreases, but the number of unskilled workers available increases...at some point, something has to give...
Back in the 80s, there was something called TRA...Trade Readjustment Act, to re-train workers who lost their jobs thru imports like Honda and Toy...fully paid for re-education to attempt to bring those displaced workers up to speed in the "new economy"...some took advantage of it and were re-trained...others just sat home collecting unemployment and SUB-pay, hoping that the robots would disappear, computers would go away, and Honda and Toyota would stop making cars...they are part of the dustbin of history, but they could have improved their lot, they simply refused to do so...
So, dallas, I do not disrespect honest hard work, but it is fair to say that we simply do not need as many uneducated unskilled workers as we did just 30 years ago, and we have done our share in offering them a chance, fully paid for, for re-training...if they don't take the chance, then stop bothering me with it...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...even the UAW needs to see the handwriting on the wall, but they refuse to open their eyes, let alone look at the wall...
from, say, 1980, we had robots, computers, now performing many tasks that used to be performed by someone's strong back...while the worker may have a "useful life" of 40 years, the need for his strong back literally vanished within 10 years (from 1980-1990 and beyond),
This is precisely what the UAW has tried to stop at the Big 3. They were somewhat successful at GM and now the competition is beating their socks off. Anyone that thinks the UAW was not trying to stop progress is living in a World all their own. That plant in Brazil was a real eye opener to what can be done if modern technology is used instead of expensive manual labor. The UAW has tried to keep the domestics tied to old technology and they have neutered the US automakers in the process.
I would like to see some statistics on how many UAW workers took advantage of the Jobs banks opportunity for more education. Those that just sat reading the funny papers in the rubber rooms deserve NOTHING.
The cost gets passed on to the consumer. Like in shoplifting, companies naming stadiums/arenas, CEO abuse, superstar endorsements, and even labor costs. Are any of these natural to the supply/demand curves?
Not sure of the point here. Whether 3com names a stadium because they believe that this will improve their ROI is not related to whether they have the flexibility to pay the market wage for the skills of their workers.
Most computer guru's will tell you that Apple's MAC was light years ahead of the PC (DELL), however, DELL has the advantage.
Dell doesn't have the advantage any more. The PC was originally from IBM, not Dell.
...the best products aren't automatically the winner.
No, sometimes being there first is. As an example, IBM had the PC well before Apple had the Mac. The Mac has been superior through much of its existence 1984-2008. But Microsoft still has the market share. Apple had to fight and claw and still is well behind in sales.
Analagous to the car business, the business for the D3 was theirs to lose. In the 1960's it was only the VW bug. In the 1970's Toyota, Honda, and Datsun(Nissan) came on strong. The Japanese makes have been clawing for 30 years to gain market share, and they had to do it against American loyalty and patriotism to locally produced cars. It goes to show that the D3 really were complacent with decades of junk and in not making what the customers really wanted. The Japanese makes were smart, tough competitors who focused on building superior products.
It would be nice to have a US set of makes with similar focus. GM has been trying with the CTS and Malibu, but with 8 divisions and so much baggage, it's hard to see how they can be razor-focused. If they could prune 50% of the dead branches off their tree then perhaps the rest of the tree would flower again. And it is largely the UAW agreements that prevent this from happening. So the tree continues to wilt.
From the 1700s to the late 1900s, all you needed was a strong back, and the majority could get by with little formal education...it simply was not needed to get a job...
Your speaking to marketable skills as oppose to education. We might also consider that we went from an agrarian society to an urban industrial society. The main frame computer displaced many file clerks. Some would argue that the computer created many more jobs than it took. The GI BILL after the war was certainly made use of. However, some retraining Act which fails to take certain human needs into consideration is just an empty promise. How is one to feed, clothe, and shelter their family while this training takes place? Why not just open the doors to the universities/colleges right now? The educational system of this country is flawed and for good reason. They have offered little incentive in the way of pay and therefore have attracted something other than the cream of the crop. When I see that a teacher doesn't know the difference between "here" and "hear", I'm no longer amazed. Economic laws apply to the educational system. The starting pay has nothing to do with unions and more to do with what a society values. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll pay the private tuition. There will always be transition and in the future this transition will come about faster and faster. Perhaps if we did away with the MCAT and other hurdles, which screen future doctors, we would get the same as our educational institutions. So we see the point? We understand education as oppose to task training? One might opt for a classical education in Latin or liberal arts and have little if anything to offer as a marketable skill.
This is all about the UAW and its relationship with America, the country which buys the most cars on the planet. If this industry should go overseas as others have. Many nations want this market and offer little in return. Free trade and globalization are just but abstract thought to them as they lustfully eye this industry. If in fact the Big Three are the monster which they are made to be. Then we should take aim at the head of this monster, where the brain is located and quit scapegoating the UAW as the evil. I assure you that good honest folks doing their jobs are not remotely the cause of crisis.
It can be very misleading. When I was in the Navy we used to get these yearly statements on our "total compensation". It made it seem like I was making lots of money instead of the real money I was making. They listed medical benefits (which were good), commisary savings and exchange savings (provided you actually shopped there as in San Diego you could save more money at the department stores) and other items they would list. After it was all said and done what mattered to me was the take home pay at the end of the year and it was nowhere close to what Uncle Sam claimed I was taking. If a UAW worked does one thing only then they are in trouble. I know for a fact Toyota and Honda line workers rotate from station to station so they can cover if someone doesn't show up. Cross training if you will. Anyway, I hope you had a happy thanksgiving and ate lots of goodies. I know I did and I'm still stuffed! Great second game if you are a Cowboy fan.! We'll find out next week what the plans of the Big Three are. I hope they have a plan. I would hate to see all the workers be out of a job due to the stupidity and complacency of a few.
Not sure of the point here. Whether 3com names a stadium because they believe that this will improve their ROI is not related to whether they have the flexibility to pay the market wage for the skills of their workers.
This cost gets passed on to the consumer. What is known to day as Reliant Stadium was ENRON Stadium prior. It did wonders for its good name? Paying millions for naming rights is egotistical PR.
Dell doesn't have the advantage any more. The PC was originally from IBM, not Dell.
I'm speaking of the first icon driven menu consumer friendly computers. Even most of all the school systems opted for Apples over non MACs. Graphics and operating systems were superior. You could takes a MAC apart without even a screwdriver or any other tool. Much like Dells today. Dell and HP might be neck in neck, but they aren't MACs.
Microsoft sells software and not hardware. Thats another story. A long story.
Many experts would also tell you that the Sony BETA was superior to the VCR. However, VCR was the winner.
And it is largely the UAW agreements that prevent this from happening.
GM went into an agreement with Canada and the CAW. They in return for tax breaks agreed to make Camaro/Firebird there in that Canadian auto plant. In 2002 they razed that plant. The agreement lasted into 2009. Guess whats coming the 2009 Camaro and there is a waiting list of buyers.
For the UAW, their contracts have artificially inflated their salaries vs. what the market will bear.
For the record the term artificially is used in absence of free market forces. The company and union agreed upon these wages/benefits of their own free will. They signed the document stating so and felt that they would be better off by entering the agreement. Much like one of might sign a car contract or home contract. No one held a gun to their head and or twisted their arm. So therefore one can conclude that this is the going rate aka equilibrium, where supply meets demand as curves.
I would hate to see all the workers be out of a job due to the stupidity and complacency of a few.
I would hate to see anyone lose their job also. The stupidity can be blamed on the management of GM especially. They could have gotten tough years ago with the UAW. The UAW could have saved 100s of 1000s of UAW jobs by giving in to the Big 3 starting in the 1970s. They could have opened their minds to the future technology and we would not have modern plants all over the planet building cars and shipping them back to the states. Ford tried to build a modern plant like the one in Brazil here in the states and the UAW shot them down. The lug nut on the assembly line was only following his human nature to be as greedy as possible. The UAW leaders could have been honest when they saw the trend toward building plants in Mexico. The bottom line is the UAW has lost over a million good paying jobs by either sheer stupidity and bullheadedness. Maybe a bit of both.
And you are right that the wage package does not always tell the truth. That is up to the Union leaders to get the truth out. I don't see them doing anything like that. The chart posted was off the mainstream press. It paints the UAW as OVERPAID by what the rest of US make. When I retired my hourly was $38 per hour. My over all package was less than $60 per hour. If GM is including pay to all the retirees as part of the wage package that is the UAW contract that left a big hole. My retirement was a flat $7 per hour with NO health care after I retired. Plus the last 10 years we had an additional 3% into a 401k. That was to protect us from the Feds having a limit on retirement benefits.
Goes to show how GM management handles their suppliers. No push for quality. Why should Toyota provide it when they don't ask for it.
Isn't Vibe is also sold as Toyota Matrix. Interesting forum on that very subject right here on Edmunds. So what does that say about Toyota? Looks like fecal matter, reeks of fecal matter, its fecal matter alright.
All the while UAW workers in California are making Toyota Corollas and no problems.
They did not mention the Japanese work ethic puts the job ahead of family. Something the Japanese automakers wrestled with when they started building auto plants in the USA.
With all the bashing of UAW employees and championing of Japanese workers, we fail to see the whole picture. If and when we see it, the whole picture, its only a small piece of the big puzzle. Japan's CEO's get a multitude of the American CEO compensation. We all can agree that leadership comes from above and so does this so called work ethic. Then there also avoid the employee for life. Where the company takes care of the employee and his/her family. They are in fact welcome as a member of a family and are truly concerned. These are not discussed in the business schools, which have made Toyota the darlings of the business programs. They only take what they see fitting and or to their benefit and omit whatever they see fitting.
Maybe we can gain some insight from when Benz purchased Chrysler. The Benz CEO was astonished at how little the UAW workers were compensated in comparison to autoworkers in Germany. But even more in shock that the Chrysler CEO was being paid way more than he the Benz CEO.
Back in the 80s, there was something called TRA...Trade Readjustment Act,
Its alive and well. If a worker is eligible for TAA and/or NAFTA-TAA, they may be able to continue receiving weekly income support payments in the form of TRA after the exhaustion of unemployment compensation benefits.
Basic TRA Basic TRA usually lasts 26 weeks. To receive basic TRA payments under a TAA certification, the worker must be enrolled in or have completed TAA-approved training subsequent to a total or partial separation or been granted a written waiver of the training requirement.
Additional TRA Additional TRA can be paid for 26 more weeks, in a continuous 26 week period. These additional TRA weekly cash payments are available to assist a worker completing an approved TAA training program.
After tuition what does one live on while going to these training programs? Is one year enough to get a associates degree from a college? How many people have completed this program? I do know Oklahoma takes care of living expenses and thereby are more assured that this person will more than likely not show up on the welfare/public assistance roll.
GM went into an agreement with Canada and the CAW. They in return for tax breaks agreed to make Camaro/Firebird there in that Canadian auto plant. In 2002 they razed that plant. The agreement lasted into 2009. Guess whats coming the 2009 Camaro and there is a waiting list of buyers.
You've said that the UAW is being blamed unfairly. Many say that GM has way too big a cost structure, including too many plants and too many workers being paid for not working. They also say work rules keep flexibility out of the processes, which promotes major inefficiencies. Which is correct? Can GM prune the bad branches of the tree as many other companies not in this industry would be able to do? If not, why not? Please explain why the UAW contracts are not part of the problem.
For the record the term artificially is used in absence of free market forces. The company and union agreed upon these wages/benefits of their own free will.
Cool! Bankruptcy is also a free market force. Let's not bail them out.
Sep 14, 2008 (The Dallas Morning News - McClatchy-Tribune News Service via COMTEX) -- GM | Quote | Chart | News | PowerRating -- Sep. 14--As General Motors Corp. celebrates a bittersweet 100th anniversary on Tuesday, autoworkers at its plant in Arlington will be affixing Arabic labels to Chevy Tahoe SUVs. Odd as it may seem, the two are related.Since late summer, when soaring gas prices decimated full-size sport utility sales in the U.S., as many as half of the 850 SUVs built daily in Arlington are shipped to booming markets in the Middle East -- an irony even people outside GM can probably appreciate.
Yeah, and if the import fanboys want long term complaints, let's talk about all those Japanese cars from the 1970s and 1980s that collapsed into piles of iron oxide dust after a couple Northeast winters or interiors that cracked and split after a few summers? Why is it that I'm more likely to see a live Tyranosaurus Rex walking down Broad Street than a 1970s or 1980s Japanese car? Why is it there are still PLENTY of 1960s, 70s, and 80s Detroit cars out there, yet the Japanese cars are conspicuous by their absence?
Since that door has been opened. Socialism/welfare for the rich isn't my choice and against capitalism. So you just tell them no. Just like you told them no bailouts for the banking system. Liquidate and payoff the employees, creditors, and whatever is left over for the shareholders.
Since GM France makes the transmissions for 3 and 5 series BMWs, what will they do? Who will make the Army Hummers?
I have a friend who has a Honda which has well over a 100,000 miles. Thats all fine and dandy, but it is an eye sore, the interior and exterior are decaying. Looks like junk, but it still runs. I personally wouldn't want to be seen in it. However, there are folks out there that don't care. For that matter if he ever comes over, I'll ask him to park in the back.
There used to be an unwritten rule where the worker put in an honest day's work and the company provided him with financial stability and the means to a decent lifestyle. Somewhere and at some time this rule was discarded. Today's corporate world seems to want to suck every ohm and erg from its workers and discard their burnt-out husks like orange peels in the name of almighty profit.
If I have a boss who is good to me, compensates me well, and treats me with respect, I will go out of my way to help him. The job may be difficult, but I will willingly help him out of respect. Now, if my boss is a greedy idiot who will take advantage of me, disrespect me, and pay me poorly, I will take every chance I can to slack off and thwart his efforts at every turn. I will not respect him and most certainly not fear him as I have nothing to lose in the first place. Even poverty and unemployment would be preferable to helping some greedy, idiotic despot acheive his fortune at the expense of my health, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
My Dad did something like that when he lost his job when they moved the assembly line to Canada in 1998. He went to school for electrical engineering and graduated at the top of his class! This was truly an amazing feat for a guy who just had a high school diploma and a stint in the Navy. There was only one problem -Dad was 60 years-old at the time. Who the heck was going to hire a 60 year-old guy regardless of how smart he may be? Dad told me all the younger guys soon found work, but his age was definitely a barrier to employment. Eventually, Dad did find a job with Quaker Oats. If Dad had instead worked for Quaker the whole time he was employed with this other company, he'd be enjoying a fantastic retirement today.
You've said that the UAW is being blamed unfairly.
GM represents its stockholders. GM runs the company in the manner it sees fitting.
The UAW represents its members, the rank and file workers.
The company and union agreed upon these wages/benefits of their own free will. They signed the document stating so and felt that they would be better off by entering the agreement. Much like one of might sign a car contract or home contract. No one held a gun to their head and or twisted their arm. So therefore one can conclude that this is the going rate aka equilibrium, where supply meets demand as curves.
If you were to buy a car or house, then at about the 10th payment you experienced buyers remorse. You are still obligated to make the remaining payments or sell the car/house to get out from under the obligation.
The UAW doesn't decide what cars to make, when to make cars, what color these cars are to be. Management is responsible for these day to day operations. They then sell these cars and give the profits with the shareholders and or reinvest them in the factory/operation. If they fail to make profits, its not a concern of the UAW since they have no stake and are but just one piece of the manufacture of the final product.
dd wrote : " I have a friend who has a Honda which has well over a 100,000 miles. Thats all fine and dandy, but it is an eye sore, the interior and exterior are decaying. Looks like junk, but it still runs. I personally wouldn't want to be seen in it. However, there are folks out there that don't care. For that matter if he ever comes over, I'll ask him to park in the back. "
DD I'd scale back on that. Hard to argue for the proletariat or the UAW for that matter if you sound egalitarian . Egads, someone might accuse you of being a closet Republican. Now we libertarians are pretty open minded. They can park out front if they brought beer. But he is your friend so we postulate that you like him warts and all.
GG; I would surely like to see a plant in the US even approximating Brazil. Technology at it's finest as used to be the American way.
He worked for Gatorade. One of the perks of his retirement is all the free Gatorade he wants. When I visit Dad, I usually come home with several cases of Gatorade. I don't know what happened after Dad left Gatorade. I heard they sold out to Pepsico and they more or less upended everything that was good about working at Gatorade. Corporate greed at its finest!
Since that door has been opened. Socialism/welfare for the rich isn't my choice and against capitalism. So you just tell them no. Just like you told them no bailouts for the banking system. Liquidate and payoff the employees, creditors, and whatever is left over for the shareholders.
Agree with you there. Unfortunately that door is already a gaping hole!
Since GM France makes the transmissions for 3 and 5 series BMWs, what will they do? Who will make the Army Hummers?
I'm sure the more valuable parts of GM would be sold off and managed as part of new or existing companies. The parts that were not of value would be shut down. Which is what GM management should do with those non-valuable parts. The tree pruning part. Which brings us back to - does GM management have the flexibility to do what they MUST do, without declaring bankruptcy?
If you were to buy a car or house, then at about the 10th payment you experienced buyers remorse. You are still obligated to make the remaining payments or sell the car/house to get out from under the obligation.
Exactly! So just like today's mortgage crisis, if I can't afford my new interest rate, I
a - renegotiate with the lender; or b - declare bankruptcy and walk away
But the union has said they aren't negotiating for more concessions. So viola! Bankruptcy - unless the government is willing to pick our pockets and loan them some money.
DD I'd scale back on that. Hard to argue for the proletariat or the UAW for that matter if you sound egalitarian . Egads, someone might accuse you of being a closet Republican. Now we libertarians are pretty open minded. They can park out front if they brought beer. But he is your friend so we postulate that you like him warts and all.
Many UAW plants and even at Black Lake Michigan, If it ain't UAW, your parking in the gravel parking lot and walking further. Most UAW products don't decompose as fast and the Asian/Aryan brands. Then there is property value to consider. However, UAW made Miller beer could have an influence in have these issues overlooked.
Which brings us back to - does GM management have the flexibility to do what they MUST do, without declaring bankruptcy?
Under a normal recession GM would float bonds until business picked up. In this credit crunch they couldn't even do junk bonds at extremely high rates. Thanks to the Wall Street boys packaging sub prime mortgages as safe/sure bets.
Perhaps I'm imagining that you are avoiding my specific question. :P
Does GM have the flexibility to decisively downsize, lay off people where necessary, and rearrange the work for maximum labor efficiency? Or do the Union contracts severely limit their flexibility?
The International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America, better known as the United Auto Workers (UAW), is a labor union which represents workers in the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. Founded in order to represent workers in the automobile manufacturing industry, UAW members in the 21st century work in industries as diverse as health care, casino gaming and higher education
Does GM have the flexibility to decisively downsize, lay off people where necessary, and rearrange the work for maximum labor efficiency?
As far as I'm aware they have already done these and no union contract that I'm aware of hinders these actions. They did at one time have an experimental Saturn plant contract which was fashioned to the Japanese employee for life, but that was negotiated out.
Comments
So, why is this pernicious falsehood about inflated wages bouncing around the public discourse on the auto industry? Several reasons.
First, it demonizes unions and their members as greedy and not interested in the long-term health and profitability of the corporations with which they sign contracts. It also ignores the fact that in 2007 the UAW signed a landmark contract in which they assumed future responsibility for healthcare for their members employed by the Big Three. The auto companies paid in to a fund, which will be administered by the UAW. Over the long haul, this is expected to radically decrease the auto companies' legacy costs (although the best way to help company and union is to pass national health care).
Making false claims inflating the earnings of unionized workers is also part of the Republicans' long-held practice of class warfare. It's intended to gin up envy and disgust at people making a good hourly wage. Few people would be unsympathetic to an auto worker for making $58,000 per year. But more would feel unsympathetic if they thought that same auto worker made $73 per hour, which over the course of a year is over $150,000.
Finally, harping on imaginary and inflated wages for workers is a way to distract from one of the big problems with the US auto companies (and most US corporations in any sector): executive compensation. For instance, in 2007 General Motors CEO Rick Waggoner made close to $20 million in total compensation.
Are you surprised that conservatives are playing with math to come up with the false figure of $73 per hour for UAW members working at the Big Three, while saying nothing about a Big Three CEO making $9,500.00 per hour?
Regards,
OW
The management of the auto manufacturer BMW has introduced measures that shift the burden of the recession and the crisis in the automobile industry entirely onto the workforce. In this, the management is working hand in hand with the BMW Works Council and IG Metall union bureaucrats in Bavaria and Saxony.
Production at the company's main plant in Munich will be stopped in mid-December until January 9 next year. The rapid decrease in sales—in October alone, sales figures sank by 8.3 percent—is cited by management as grounds for halting production early on December 8. Negotiations with the Works Council to this end are presently taking place.
He explained how the situation had fundamentally changed at BMW over the last few years. Compared with those in other companies, BMW workers were relatively better off. Pay used to be clearly above the usual level for the industry, and there were other generous benefits. Today, workloads have increased and there are constant attacks on wages.
Franc B., who also has 35 years' employment at BMW, reported on the harsher conditions with "ever fewer people on the production line having to complete more work."
Asked about the role of the Works Council leadership and the IG Metall trade union, he stated clearly, "They're all in cahoots. If a new shop steward is elected, the first thing he does is speak with the boss."
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/nov2008/bmwg-n17.shtml
I'm inclined to believe that they were the unemployed CEOs who line up at the doors to augment their greedy golden parachutes. Besides we all know that welfare mongers shop at trendy upscale retailers.
No sales = no work.
Regards,
OW
3,500,000 motors and many with timely oil changes DOCUMENTED by Toyota themselves. Toyota stuck it to everyone who owns one of these millions of tainted cars. Don't blame lawyers, don't blame the little old ladies who change their oil in a timely manner as suggested by Toyota, and don't praise Toyota for "handling things better than other auto producers." Blame Toyota, since it was Toyota that produced several million garbage engines. And don't forget to tell the truth the next time you get a questionnaire in the mail asking about your Toyota. The best you could do is to pull your valve covers to look for signs of sludge. I have torn down many engines and could remove those 10-32ish small screws and have a better look. But, I'm more of a rocket scientist and have extraordinary skills and abilities. Not that I like to too my own horn, its just fact.
Final thought to ponder: The worst maintenance record of any GM vehicle right now is the Pontiac Vibe. You know, the car made for GM by Toyota.
Now lets just end all this sludge/gel talk.
Let me tell you that the field I work in, even rocket scientists refer to it when addressing a problem in their field.
They say:
C'mon it is only rocket science, not "XYZ".
XYZ = my specialty, which I am not going to reveal over here.
Goes to show how GM management handles their suppliers. No push for quality. Why should Toyota provide it when they don't ask for it.
The cost gets passed on to the consumer. Like in shoplifting, companies naming stadiums/arenas, CEO abuse, superstar endorsements, and even labor costs. Are any of these natural to the supply/demand curves? Hell no, they are just factored in. Economics is not an exact science. Marketing is where its at. AOL can flood the postal mail boxes of America and become the number one ISP (internet service provider), inferior, however, they own the lions share. Then Intel can own the processor market over a superior AMD. Most computer guru's will tell you that Apple's MAC was light years ahead of the PC (DELL), however, DELL has the advantage. My favorite is the way Apple took the Sony Walkman down and has the IPOD as the "brand". They don't intend to give it up either, many new cars have an IPOD dock. IPOD has been improving to keep this lions share of the market with generation after generation coming out yearly.
So building the best product at the best price isn't an axiom as having the best marketing and not resting on the past. This is very important in the selection of stock, as the best products aren't automatically the winner.
Lincoln preserved the union and is the grandfather of the GOP. I suppose you advocate having slaves even today?
Emancipation proclamation is the only thing which stands in the way of keeping America from blaming labor for the Detroit's Big Three's downfall. If left to these brilliant CEO's these companies would be in the black. I'm just not too sure that they would have fared any better than the banks. Perhaps you could argue that?
The managements main responsibility is the shareholder.
The UAW's main responsibility is their membership/the rank and file.
Whats so hard to understand about that?
Which country are these Toyota workers representing? Does this chart also factor in the national health they enjoy?
CITE CITE CITE
Nevermind NEXTRIGHT
Moreover, most Japanese workers receive the Asian custom of a 13th month of salary (that is, one extra month at the end of the year as a "bonus" but it's a standard part of pay in many companies). Is this true of Japanese car companies? Economics professor doesn't talk about this part of Japanese employee compensation.
So, if we're comparing American professor salaries to auto workers, we should consider that the American economics professor making the posting thinks wages with health care equals wages without health care. Hmmm. Maybe, the professor should go back to school. Or, maybe, the problem is, our auto companies are as bad at economics as professor is!
I for one cannot understand why American auto companies, put at a terrible competitive disadvantage by our idiotic health care system, don't lobby for something more sensible. Perhaps, its because the execs at the auto companies are too smart to invest in auto company stock, and go for the profitable businesses, like American insurance companies!
BTW, why not include German and other European workers in this comparison? Hmm. Do European workers get more? What has the recent slippage in the dollar done to this comparison? Not questions economic professor seems to have thought about.
Workers in the worst of jobs in the USA are better off than most of the World. Unless of course you live in a city of barbarians that trample you trying to buy Cheap Chinese goods.
No one has doubted the honesty of making a living...but the comments at that time, about 80 posts back, was that the world is changing and the people have no choice but to adapt or die...
From the 1700s to the late 1900s, all you needed was a strong back, and the majority could get by with little formal education...it simply was not needed to get a job...
Technology changed all that, and the needs of Society's employers changed faster than the population at large...from, say, 1980, we had robots, computers, now performing many tasks that used to be performed by someone's strong back...while the worker may have a "useful life" of 40 years, the need for his strong back literally vanished within 10 years (from 1980-1990 and beyond), but his level of education was stuck...suddenly, the man (and woman) who could easily survive with a 3rd or 6th or 10th grade education was left out in the cold, being told that he did not have the skills and education to compete in the "new economy" simply because we didn't need his strong back anymore...
So, while a compassionate society will "carry" the worker forward, we can only do it for so long, and then the worker must literally upgrade themselves and their skills...easy???...probably the most difficult thing in the world for the uneducated laborer...but, no matter how difficult, it still must be done...we, as a society, cannot continue to pay someone to sit at home while while the world passes him by...sadly, the only position comes down to "sink or swim"...and the worker must pull themselves up by their bootstraps or we will leave them behind...there is no other choice...
So, the demand for the unskilled worker decreases, but the number of unskilled workers available increases...at some point, something has to give...
Back in the 80s, there was something called TRA...Trade Readjustment Act, to re-train workers who lost their jobs thru imports like Honda and Toy...fully paid for re-education to attempt to bring those displaced workers up to speed in the "new economy"...some took advantage of it and were re-trained...others just sat home collecting unemployment and SUB-pay, hoping that the robots would disappear, computers would go away, and Honda and Toyota would stop making cars...they are part of the dustbin of history, but they could have improved their lot, they simply refused to do so...
So, dallas, I do not disrespect honest hard work, but it is fair to say that we simply do not need as many uneducated unskilled workers as we did just 30 years ago, and we have done our share in offering them a chance, fully paid for, for re-training...if they don't take the chance, then stop bothering me with it...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...even the UAW needs to see the handwriting on the wall, but they refuse to open their eyes, let alone look at the wall...
This is precisely what the UAW has tried to stop at the Big 3. They were somewhat successful at GM and now the competition is beating their socks off. Anyone that thinks the UAW was not trying to stop progress is living in a World all their own. That plant in Brazil was a real eye opener to what can be done if modern technology is used instead of expensive manual labor. The UAW has tried to keep the domestics tied to old technology and they have neutered the US automakers in the process.
I would like to see some statistics on how many UAW workers took advantage of the Jobs banks opportunity for more education. Those that just sat reading the funny papers in the rubber rooms deserve NOTHING.
Not sure of the point here. Whether 3com names a stadium because they believe that this will improve their ROI is not related to whether they have the flexibility to pay the market wage for the skills of their workers.
Most computer guru's will tell you that Apple's MAC was light years ahead of the PC (DELL), however, DELL has the advantage.
Dell doesn't have the advantage any more. The PC was originally from IBM, not Dell.
...the best products aren't automatically the winner.
No, sometimes being there first is. As an example, IBM had the PC well before Apple had the Mac. The Mac has been superior through much of its existence 1984-2008. But Microsoft still has the market share. Apple had to fight and claw and still is well behind in sales.
Analagous to the car business, the business for the D3 was theirs to lose. In the 1960's it was only the VW bug. In the 1970's Toyota, Honda, and Datsun(Nissan) came on strong. The Japanese makes have been clawing for 30 years to gain market share, and they had to do it against American loyalty and patriotism to locally produced cars. It goes to show that the D3 really were complacent with decades of junk and in not making what the customers really wanted. The Japanese makes were smart, tough competitors who focused on building superior products.
It would be nice to have a US set of makes with similar focus. GM has been trying with the CTS and Malibu, but with 8 divisions and so much baggage, it's hard to see how they can be razor-focused. If they could prune 50% of the dead branches off their tree then perhaps the rest of the tree would flower again. And it is largely the UAW agreements that prevent this from happening. So the tree continues to wilt.
Your speaking to marketable skills as oppose to education. We might also consider that we went from an agrarian society to an urban industrial society. The main frame computer displaced many file clerks. Some would argue that the computer created many more jobs than it took. The GI BILL after the war was certainly made use of. However, some retraining Act which fails to take certain human needs into consideration is just an empty promise. How is one to feed, clothe, and shelter their family while this training takes place? Why not just open the doors to the universities/colleges right now? The educational system of this country is flawed and for good reason. They have offered little incentive in the way of pay and therefore have attracted something other than the cream of the crop. When I see that a teacher doesn't know the difference between "here" and "hear", I'm no longer amazed. Economic laws apply to the educational system. The starting pay has nothing to do with unions and more to do with what a society values. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll pay the private tuition. There will always be transition and in the future this transition will come about faster and faster. Perhaps if we did away with the MCAT and other hurdles, which screen future doctors, we would get the same as our educational institutions. So we see the point? We understand education as oppose to task training? One might opt for a classical education in Latin or liberal arts and have little if anything to offer as a marketable skill.
This is all about the UAW and its relationship with America, the country which buys the most cars on the planet. If this industry should go overseas as others have. Many nations want this market and offer little in return. Free trade and globalization are just but abstract thought to them as they lustfully eye this industry. If in fact the Big Three are the monster which they are made to be. Then we should take aim at the head of this monster, where the brain is located and quit scapegoating the UAW as the evil. I assure you that good honest folks doing their jobs are not remotely the cause of crisis.
If a UAW worked does one thing only then they are in trouble. I know for a fact Toyota and Honda line workers rotate from station to station so they can cover if someone doesn't show up. Cross training if you will. Anyway, I hope you had a happy thanksgiving and ate lots of goodies. I know I did and I'm still stuffed! Great second game if you are a Cowboy fan.! We'll find out next week what the plans of the Big Three are. I hope they have a plan. I would hate to see all the workers be out of a job due to the stupidity and complacency of a few.
This cost gets passed on to the consumer. What is known to day as Reliant Stadium was ENRON Stadium prior. It did wonders for its good name? Paying millions for naming rights is egotistical PR.
Dell doesn't have the advantage any more. The PC was originally from IBM, not Dell.
I'm speaking of the first icon driven menu consumer friendly computers. Even most of all the school systems opted for Apples over non MACs. Graphics and operating systems were superior. You could takes a MAC apart without even a screwdriver or any other tool. Much like Dells today. Dell and HP might be neck in neck, but they aren't MACs.
Microsoft sells software and not hardware. Thats another story. A long story.
Many experts would also tell you that the Sony BETA was superior to the VCR. However, VCR was the winner.
And it is largely the UAW agreements that prevent this from happening.
GM went into an agreement with Canada and the CAW. They in return for tax breaks agreed to make Camaro/Firebird there in that Canadian auto plant. In 2002 they razed that plant. The agreement lasted into 2009. Guess whats coming the 2009 Camaro and there is a waiting list of buyers.
For the record the term artificially is used in absence of free market forces. The company and union agreed upon these wages/benefits of their own free will. They signed the document stating so and felt that they would be better off by entering the agreement. Much like one of might sign a car contract or home contract. No one held a gun to their head and or twisted their arm. So therefore one can conclude that this is the going rate aka equilibrium, where supply meets demand as curves.
I would hate to see anyone lose their job also. The stupidity can be blamed on the management of GM especially. They could have gotten tough years ago with the UAW. The UAW could have saved 100s of 1000s of UAW jobs by giving in to the Big 3 starting in the 1970s. They could have opened their minds to the future technology and we would not have modern plants all over the planet building cars and shipping them back to the states. Ford tried to build a modern plant like the one in Brazil here in the states and the UAW shot them down. The lug nut on the assembly line was only following his human nature to be as greedy as possible. The UAW leaders could have been honest when they saw the trend toward building plants in Mexico. The bottom line is the UAW has lost over a million good paying jobs by either sheer stupidity and bullheadedness. Maybe a bit of both.
And you are right that the wage package does not always tell the truth. That is up to the Union leaders to get the truth out. I don't see them doing anything like that. The chart posted was off the mainstream press. It paints the UAW as OVERPAID by what the rest of US make. When I retired my hourly was $38 per hour. My over all package was less than $60 per hour. If GM is including pay to all the retirees as part of the wage package that is the UAW contract that left a big hole. My retirement was a flat $7 per hour with NO health care after I retired. Plus the last 10 years we had an additional 3% into a 401k. That was to protect us from the Feds having a limit on retirement benefits.
Isn't Vibe is also sold as Toyota Matrix. Interesting forum on that very subject right here on Edmunds. So what does that say about Toyota? Looks like fecal matter, reeks of fecal matter, its fecal matter alright.
All the while UAW workers in California are making Toyota Corollas and no problems.
With all the bashing of UAW employees and championing of Japanese workers, we fail to see the whole picture. If and when we see it, the whole picture, its only a small piece of the big puzzle. Japan's CEO's get a multitude of the American CEO compensation. We all can agree that leadership comes from above and so does this so called work ethic. Then there also avoid the employee for life. Where the company takes care of the employee and his/her family. They are in fact welcome as a member of a family and are truly concerned. These are not discussed in the business schools, which have made Toyota the darlings of the business programs. They only take what they see fitting and or to their benefit and omit whatever they see fitting.
Maybe we can gain some insight from when Benz purchased Chrysler. The Benz CEO was astonished at how little the UAW workers were compensated in comparison to autoworkers in Germany. But even more in shock that the Chrysler CEO was being paid way more than he the Benz CEO.
Its alive and well. If a worker is eligible for TAA and/or NAFTA-TAA, they may be able to continue receiving weekly income support payments in the form of TRA after the exhaustion of unemployment compensation benefits.
Basic TRA
Basic TRA usually lasts 26 weeks. To receive basic TRA payments under a TAA certification, the worker must be enrolled in or have completed TAA-approved training subsequent to a total or partial separation or been granted a written waiver of the training requirement.
Additional TRA
Additional TRA can be paid for 26 more weeks, in a continuous 26 week period. These additional TRA weekly cash payments are available to assist a worker completing an approved TAA training program.
After tuition what does one live on while going to these training programs? Is one year enough to get a associates degree from a college? How many people have completed this program? I do know Oklahoma takes care of living expenses and thereby are more assured that this person will more than likely not show up on the welfare/public assistance roll.
You've said that the UAW is being blamed unfairly. Many say that GM has way too big a cost structure, including too many plants and too many workers being paid for not working. They also say work rules keep flexibility out of the processes, which promotes major inefficiencies. Which is correct? Can GM prune the bad branches of the tree as many other companies not in this industry would be able to do? If not, why not? Please explain why the UAW contracts are not part of the problem.
Cool! Bankruptcy is also a free market force. Let's not bail them out.
Since that door has been opened. Socialism/welfare for the rich isn't my choice and against capitalism. So you just tell them no. Just like you told them no bailouts for the banking system. Liquidate and payoff the employees, creditors, and whatever is left over for the shareholders.
Since GM France makes the transmissions for 3 and 5 series BMWs, what will they do? Who will make the Army Hummers?
If I have a boss who is good to me, compensates me well, and treats me with respect, I will go out of my way to help him. The job may be difficult, but I will willingly help him out of respect. Now, if my boss is a greedy idiot who will take advantage of me, disrespect me, and pay me poorly, I will take every chance I can to slack off and thwart his efforts at every turn. I will not respect him and most certainly not fear him as I have nothing to lose in the first place. Even poverty and unemployment would be preferable to helping some greedy, idiotic despot acheive his fortune at the expense of my health, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
GM represents its stockholders. GM runs the company in the manner it sees fitting.
The UAW represents its members, the rank and file workers.
The company and union agreed upon these wages/benefits of their own free will. They signed the document stating so and felt that they would be better off by entering the agreement. Much like one of might sign a car contract or home contract. No one held a gun to their head and or twisted their arm. So therefore one can conclude that this is the going rate aka equilibrium, where supply meets demand as curves.
If you were to buy a car or house, then at about the 10th payment you experienced buyers remorse. You are still obligated to make the remaining payments or sell the car/house to get out from under the obligation.
The UAW doesn't decide what cars to make, when to make cars, what color these cars are to be. Management is responsible for these day to day operations. They then sell these cars and give the profits with the shareholders and or reinvest them in the factory/operation. If they fail to make profits, its not a concern of the UAW since they have no stake and are but just one piece of the manufacture of the final product.
" I have a friend who has a Honda which has well over a 100,000 miles. Thats all fine and dandy, but it is an eye sore, the interior and exterior are decaying. Looks like junk, but it still runs. I personally wouldn't want to be seen in it. However, there are folks out there that don't care. For that matter if he ever comes over, I'll ask him to park in the back. "
DD I'd scale back on that. Hard to argue for the proletariat or the UAW for that matter if you sound egalitarian . Egads, someone might accuse you of being a closet Republican. Now we libertarians are pretty open minded. They can park out front if they brought beer. But he is your friend so we postulate that you like him warts and all.
GG; I would surely like to see a plant in the US even approximating Brazil. Technology at it's finest as used to be the American way.
Were they Gatorade, Tropicana, Frito Lay....back then?
Agree with you there. Unfortunately that door is already a gaping hole!
Since GM France makes the transmissions for 3 and 5 series BMWs, what will they do? Who will make the Army Hummers?
I'm sure the more valuable parts of GM would be sold off and managed as part of new or existing companies. The parts that were not of value would be shut down. Which is what GM management should do with those non-valuable parts. The tree pruning part. Which brings us back to - does GM management have the flexibility to do what they MUST do, without declaring bankruptcy?
Exactly! So just like today's mortgage crisis, if I can't afford my new interest rate, I
a - renegotiate with the lender; or
b - declare bankruptcy and walk away
But the union has said they aren't negotiating for more concessions. So viola! Bankruptcy - unless the government is willing to pick our pockets and loan them some money.
Many UAW plants and even at Black Lake Michigan, If it ain't UAW, your parking in the gravel parking lot and walking further. Most UAW products don't decompose as fast and the Asian/Aryan brands. Then there is property value to consider. However, UAW made Miller beer could have an influence in have these issues overlooked.
b - declare bankruptcy and walk away
c- short sale
You left out the short sale
Under a normal recession GM would float bonds until business picked up. In this credit crunch they couldn't even do junk bonds at extremely high rates. Thanks to the Wall Street boys packaging sub prime mortgages as safe/sure bets.
Does GM have the flexibility to decisively downsize, lay off people where necessary, and rearrange the work for maximum labor efficiency? Or do the Union contracts severely limit their flexibility?
______________________________________________
[url=http://limopricer.com/limo-rentals/US-georgia/cobb-county/atlanta-limo-serv- ice.html] atlanta limo service [/url]
As far as I'm aware they have already done these and no union contract that I'm aware of hinders these actions. They did at one time have an experimental Saturn plant contract which was fashioned to the Japanese employee for life, but that was negotiated out.