Yes I did. The Warehouse people had UAW type work rules. They delivered packages to all the sites. If a box weighed one ounce over 25lbs, they took an extra guy along. They did not move furniture except on weekends. And if they caught you moving your desk it was grievance time. They should have never made more than half of the technical peoples wages. Or maybe the telephone operators. The Operators under the same Union contract were about $12 under the technicians. Warehouse work requires NO SKILLS AT ALL. Just a weak mind and a handout on pay day. Not even a strong back if you are a Union warehouse man.
Whatever gagrice. I had a lot of responsibility when I worked in the warehouse and it required a very sharp mind to keep track of everything. I didn't work where you did thus I can't judge.
PS When I worked there the warehouse jobs all went to friends and relatives of the Teamster leaders. A real SORE spot for most of the Union members.
Well I don't really agree with that either but it's better than all the friends of management like at most places.
I personally think that's unfair. A donkey deserves a working wage, too. So what if he's stubborn - if he has the same seniority he is doing the same job! :P He's just an [non-permissible content removed]!
That is called reality. Nobody is equal, inspite government and people of God preaching otherwise. God himself did not intend everybody to be equal. Who are we to interfere with his design?
So if UAW believes that all workers are equal, and they should be paid the same, irrespective of the work they do, they are in fact asking an [non-permissible content removed] to be recognized as a horse.
This is ridiculous.... If it wasn't for organizations like the UAW interfering for equal pay and rights for minorities in the 1960's well white people would still rule in this country. My grandma marched in DC in the 1960's fighting for those rights. She is blond haired and blue eyed Norwegian thus she had nothing to gain personally. So don't give me this survival of the fittest BS because if people like her didn't risk their life like she did many of you non-whites wouldn't have any rights at all in this country. White people would still rule because based on your "survival of the fittest" white people must be smarter and we should of never allowed minorities to have any rights. Am I correct??? I'm just using the same theory as you. "survival of the fittest". and not all people were created equal as god intended. Adolf Hitler thought that too. Cross German and Norse blood and you get a blond haired and blue eyed superior human being. I must be superior then as I by accident am that genetic breed. I don't think I am superior despite being proud of my heritage. It is mind boggling how warped some of ya'lls theories are. :surprise: FYI- Grandma was almost ran over by a racist in a truck that was angry at her protesting for equal rights. I hope my response shows you how ridiculous that theory is. I've came up with some whoppers myself to argue a point but that one topped my worst ones I think.
It is History repeating itself McLaughlin built cars with Buick motors in them back in 1907 and then started building Chevrolet in 1916, oh this means GM started as GM in 1908 and almost went under a few years later kicking Durant out ,he came back with more shares of GM stock from the Chevrolet build in Canada and was able to get controle of GM buying McLaughlin out in 1918. This was and still is GM of Canada . Canada then was Honored when GM nearly went under again and Cadillac was Built in Canada from 1923 to 1936 saving GM again .The new LaSalle was also built in Canada from1927 to 1935 The Oldsmobile in 1920, The Pontiac in1926 , The Canadian GM employees have been able to save GM now More times than we should have but we will do it again and see if the USA deserves it to be saved? ( buy GM and save yourselves by employing at home keeping the money in America)
rocky, your problem is that you keep thinking that simple, entry level jobs are worth much more than the REAL market will bear...real is defined as anything outside of your UAW world, where, somehow, you think that floorsweeping is skilled labor because the guy has a UAW local to represent him...
Marsha7, this isn't China, this is america and at one time we had morals and paid people a fair wage and benefits. I don't know your background and how you were raised but obviously we don't think at all a like. The market is the enemy. Someday you will realize that as the wheels of this economy can't turn on a globalist mentality. We will go broke. We are having to borrow from China, to make up for all the lost tax revenue because of that market. I'm sorry I don't agree.
It isn't communism for the peasants, it is the market as it is...somebody needs someone simply to stock shelves, and, probably, lift bags of sand or concrete that weogh 90 pounds...rocky, this does not take any brains, just someone to show up and perform manual labor with a little bit of reading stock numbers on boxes of hardware...it is barely worth minimum wage as it takes NO SKILL at all...it is not a peasant issue, it is a mindless issue, as the one who does it really needs little brains and some brawn...why do YOU think the job is worth more???
I think it's worth more because making mininum wage is ridiculously low. It should be set at $10 bucks an hour and instead of that money going back into the greedy hardware owner or corporation it can go to the guy who is doing the work. Let's just say he is a mindless sheep and all he will ever be able to do is that type of work well his back will be shot someday then what. Taking him to the firing squad and shoot him and get a new grunt. I swear that isn't far off from what you Mises think tanks believe. I would rather live under Stalin or Pol Pot rule than what you guys have in store for us. :surprise: Jeeeeeeeeepers!!! :surprise:
If someone has a wife and 3 kids at home, that DOES NOT make the job worth more, it is still unskilled labor, like it or not...that means the person may work another job in addition to the hardware job, because his needs are more than the market will pay for his skills, and that is nobody's fault but his own...
Well not all employers think like you. There are some good ones out there that believe people should be paid a livable wage above what your beloved market says. I see it as exploitation of people. A guy making minimum wage in California, is a joke. It might be worth something in Georgia, but not Cali.
I am sure that dancing takes talent, but when a family has lost a job, I am also sure that dancing lessons are no longer a priority for the family...enough families and the dance instructor no longer teaches because no one will pay...if the dance teacher has a $2000 monthly mortgage payment and applies for the hardware job, is that any reason why the hardware job should pay more???...no...the dance instructor, for that job, becomes simple unskilled labor, barely worth minimum wage...
Again I don't believe in Misenomics like you.
Your perceptions are...simply...wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!...you believe that any entry level job should make someone able to afford a half million $$$ home, simply because you think it is nice for people to be paid well...just because some people stay in an unskilled position is no reason to assume the rest of the world will pay them more than the job is worth, and most entry level jobs are worth barely minimum wage...only in "UAW land" are you people spoiled enough to think that an unskilled job requring no mental ability would pay $25/hour or more (think floorsweeping, placing wheels on hubs, etc.)...
Your perception is a race to the bottom. Hope you like it. I guess it benefits people like you because that means more clients. Perhaps that is the real motive behind your thinking??? The poorer people are the more likely they will call up Marsha & Associates.
Your people are about to get their first dose of reality in half a century when they find out that most jobs that are unskilled simply do not pay ANYTHING like the no-skill UAW jobs they have had over those years...when the superfluous UAW folks who are finally dumped to bring the company back to profitability start job-hunting, the reality will strike them in the face like a nuclear blast...NO ONE WILL PAY THEM OVER $8-10/HOUR WHEN THE EMPLOYER FINDS OUT THEIR SKILL LEVEL IS ZERO...any job they apply for will be a shock to them, as they learn what the real world pays for workers with minimal brains and no skills...don't even think for a minute that Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai will look at them past the application stage, because once they see under "work history" Ford Motor Company, 20 years assembly, or even 5 years assembly, they will drop that app like a hot potato, because hiring a former UAW worker would be like hiring a Muslim terrorist to work in a synogogue...a bomb waiting to explode...
You, gagrice, and from hell Mises, Roger Smith, will be a happy bunch. :sick: I suppose you and gagrice will have to meet up for a victory toast? Yaaaaaay the middle class and american dream is destoryed. You guys can touch your crystal glasses in a toast and can concentrate on your next motive whatever that might be? That's a scary thought. :sick:
Get used to it, and it isn't communism...it IS paying someone for the value of their work, and unskilled work is not worth much on the open market...type the words "unskilled worker" into Google, and it takes about a millionth of a second for the UAW logo to pop up on your computer screen...the gravy train for the unskilled and uneducated auto worker is over, but a half a century of fooling the American people was a nice ride while it lasted...
I did and I didn't see anything to do with the UAW "pop up"...Just another one of your false theories. You should quit practicing law and get your own radio show or something. :confuse:
"The Glove" was good but why isn't he the all-time leader in steals and assists like the greatest PG of all-time John Stockton??? :P
You are so full of it!!! Kemp, said Malone was who he wanted to be like. However he didn't have Malone's character or work ethic to be as good as him. Shawn "The Freak" Kemp, could jump out of the gym but that is about all he had. He couldn't shoot and was one dimensional. The Mailman finished his career 2nd all-time scoring behind Jabbar and if his mom wouldn't of died he could of played a year or two to grab the scoring title. I was really upset he didn't go after it but remember Malone never cared about records despite retiring with many of them.
Hey, rockford, do ya think your favorite GM is gonna make it?
I don't know iluv. I am worried pal. :sick:
And if you think they will, do ya think Fo-Mo-Co's crushing debts will also lead to their demise?
I don't know that either. Beth has only sold 5 cars this month. Things aren't looking good thus far. I spent the evening with Beth over a few Miller Lite's. I tried to cheer her up and give her some optomism. So many of her other friends are going through tough times also. Her best friend outside of me lives in Florida, and I just found out she had her job eliminated because the company she worked for closed up.
And Chrysler's friendly CAW workers are killing their survival chances for merging with Fiat as I type this out. Correct?
That sounds right. I read something to that fact. I haven't followed the Chrysler deal so much because I'm worried about GM and Delphi. My step-dad just got laid-off Friday thus we are very worried about the future of his job. :sick:
Yeah it does but I don't think he earned them. He had a lot of help from the media and refs so Michael, could save basketball. That is why I think basketball was rigged back then and with them catching the refs betting on games last year it makes one think just how many years has it been going on??? :confuse:
You aren't alone pal in your thinking. I am scared to death about the future. No UAW to fight for working people in this "Brave New World" is a very scary thought.
obama will finish american mfg with his cap and trade carbon f-over...i live in NH and air is very clean but if i dont have my supplier job, eating might be a problem...but at least air will still be clean..no factories, jobs for us schlubs.
For those that think GM going under will be devastating, they ain't seen nothing yet. Before this Congress and administration are through with the America we will be totally devastated. Cap n Trade, CO2 emissions, no more coal, Card Check are all buzz words used in the campaign. They are ALL detrimental to manufacturing in the USA. The leaders of the developing countries, mainly China and India have already said they will not do anything that slows down their economies. Some industries are just not going to be lily white clean. Much of them are in the Midwest, so they will be so over burdened with CO2 fines that they will have no choice but leave the country. It will UAW wages seem insignificant. California politicians like Waxman are leading this charge. The CA do gooder pol have already blocked most new industry in the state. Expect in on a National level over the next decade.
now we are biggest debtor nation in world...it is so over for us...and as someone who loved John Wayne, Chevrolet, WW2 combat vets and the american flag, i am pretty sad about our condition
Actually Japan is in much worse shape from debt than the USA. As far as the Bulls, they are not nearly as great as the Celtics that won 8 straight and 17 total. Even the lousy Lakers have 8 more titles than the splash in the pan Bulls. MJ was probably one of the very best. I liked Bill Russell as all around best player. His team won 11 NBA titles. No other team even close.
Overall I agree with your assessment of supervisor evaluation being flawed. I saw it being abused with assignments by those that hung out with the boss back in the early 1970s. Personalities play a much bigger part than performance unfortunately. I think that is the strongest argument for Union affiliation. Wages and benefits that do not reflect reality will eventually bring the Union down. That is where the UAW is today.
I didn't want to pass certain parts but was ordered by my supervisor to "Ship It" even though the parts were borderline bad.
Do you have any credible source that the UAW EVER went on strike for better QC standards? From where I sit all of the strikes were greed based. More, more, more money and benefits.
The UAW workers didn't take any pay increases to try to keep as much of there benefits as possible and took a lot of cuts across the board to save GM billion$ in expenses and it appears they will be taking much much more. it really stinks because if this market would of never took a nose dive a lot of the problems GM faces would of been moot and they would of recaptured I believe some market share numbers because Wagoner had them headed in the right direction.
What percentage of their pay did the old timers get cut? I cannot find where they lost a penny in wages. How much are the retirees now paying for gold plated health care? You do realize your dream of health care for all will not be even close to the plan the retirees are now getting. No dental or eyecare is in the plan. Being on Medicare as the plan will emulate does not help when you go to the dentist. My wife and I just paid $302 to have our teeth cleaned. Heck we need pet health care. A trip to the vet for our cat was $255. And he is healthy. He was not eating and the vet said give him the cheap Friskies canned food and that worked.
Back to your la la land beliefs on GM and the economy. You have NEVER addressed WHY GM was losing $BILLIONS when the economy was booming from 2004-2007. All Wagoner years in control. Don't give me fair trade or currency manipulation. That just does not fly. They could not sell their crap cars at way below the competition with employee pricing and tons of cash on the hood. Why was Wagoner building crap cars from the time he took over till he was pushed out. 2 or 3 winners out of 30+ models is not a good reference for Wagoner to put on his CEO resume'.
"This country needs some socialism as it's the best form of government. Maybe I will run for president under the socialist party that way I can redistribute Marsha7's and Gagrices wealth"...you don't have to worry, your Commie President Obama will do it for you...
Maybe Beth has been wearing turtle neck sweaters...that is NOT the way to better sales...
This country grew over the last 2 hundred years by being as capitalistic as possible...your desire for more and more socialism is simply a flaw in the mind...
In capitalism, there will be winners and losers...and the losers always say it isn't fair, but they never realize that the winners move us forward...Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, could they have thrived in a socialistic environment like Russia, (Norway, as you put it)???...I don't think so...
The very fact that there are winners means that there will be losers...but losers in our form of capitalism still means that jobs will be had for the masses from the business, not from government 5-year plans...we are in a changing environment and I am of the thought that the gov't should step back and let capitalism and the market do what it will, rather than step in and control it...
More and more critical readings about FDR and the Depression say that FDR and his interventionism only prolonged the Depression and that WWII got us out of it...while we will never know the actual truth of the matter, it does make one wonder if FDR did nothing, would we have come out of it much sooner...after all, we had depressions in the century before FDR, and there was no gov't interference, and we never read about those, simply because they were nothing to be concerned with...I always wonder if the "Great Depression" would have been so "great" if FDR sat back and let market forces simply do what they do...
And now you want even more socialism...I cannot respect that thought process...if Norway is so good, why don't you simply go there???...I am sure they can train you in some useful job...
Flying to Norway would be a couple grand mininum. I also have no idea what I would do for employment there and haven't done any research into it. My cousin and his wife moved to Canada just a few months ago for a better life.
You have to do better than that. There are dozens of options to Oslo from MI every day. All under a $grand.
Funny your cousins moved to Canada, mine moved out of Toronto and now live in Branson, MO. They were so happy when they got their US citizenship. They want NO PART or a government sponsored health care plan. They been there and done that. The high taxes far out weighed the benefits in Canada.
I was brought up in a very realistic world where good paying jobs in manufacturing were plentiful.
Just like the days of the buggy builders. Reality has changed. The dirty industry jobs in the USA are gone NEVER to return. And companies were bailing out of the Midwest in the 1960s for many and various reasons. The poor workforce being the leading cause. They found they could get the same level of unskilled labor in the South or out of the country as they could in the Midwest. By the way they started leaving PA long before they did the Midwest. Unfortunately you are only able to see one side of the coin.
> FDR and his interventionism only prolonged the Depression and that WWII got us out of it...while we will never know the actual truth of the matter, it does make one wonder if FDR did nothing, would we have come out of it much sooner...after all, we had depressions in the century before FDR, and there was no gov't interference, and we never read about those, simply because they were nothing to be concerned with...I always wonder if the "Great Depression" would have been so "great" if FDR sat back and let market forces simply do what they do...
That's what I keep thinking about the current recession. The recession was progressing through its steps before the government started intervening in what may prove to be the wrong ways by using it as an excuse to throw extra money into all kinds of pet, useless, projects.
> let capitalism and the market do what it will,
Did lack of control of greed and corruption (my opinion) in the funny paper markets go too far in capitalism? Did the ability of the hedge funds to sell down the very market from which they benefited by the sell down to lower prices make the recession worse? I believe yes because it has caused the people to feel even more financially at risk so they are not spending or investing.
That is laughable. Not even Carter whom I agree ranks as one of the worse president of all-time has put us in a hole like Bush. Dubya will go down as the worst economic president of all-time. Yes he has already topped Carter and his high interest rates. At least back in those times people had a freaken job or could find one if you wanted to work.
If you think that statement is correct you have been LIED to. The overall unemployment was higher than Michigan is today. Somewhere around 13% for the WHOLE country. Not just your little world.
The newbies had the choice to take the job or not.
So you are in favor of a two tiered wage scale. You need to make up your mind if you really believe in Unions being for equality in the workplace.
Rick Wagoner is one of the smartest human beings to ever walk this earth.
You do have some strange Heros. Wagoner, Hoffa, Reuther and Hitler.
That is really sad. I feel the weak need to revolt against the strong aka elites. This country needs a good dose of socialism and the wealth and power needs to be redistributed back to the people of this country.
You really need to study our history. We are a Socialist state and have been moving that direction since LBJ was President. Most of our economic problems today are caused by the idea that we should take care of everyone. Even those capable yet unwilling to work. It is a disaster in the making. Giving everyone that wanted a home a loan was the straw that broke the camels back. You cannot blame that on globalism or unfair trade. It was Socialism meets Capitalism and together they made a mess of our economy.
It works great in Norway!!!! I believe in Capitalism if it's done like Norway
Move there. You can get a round trip ticket for $781 on several airlines. I don't think they would take you. You want a King, I think we have one here.
this is america and at one time we had morals and paid people a fair wage and benefits.
I can tell you that in the 1950s, 60s & 70s that a larger percentage of the population were working for minimum wage than now. It was $1.25 when I first started working for someone else in 1957 at 14 years or age. Slave labor, that was me and thankful for the job. Benefits, what were benefits. You are still living in the dream world that was the Midwest. Though I believe if you were allowed to think for yourself as a child you would have been able to see all those NOT in the UAW were far less paid. Not even ONE percent of the Michigan population are in the UAW. The rest are scrambling to make a living. CA is in much the same situation. I blame it on high taxes and regulation. You blame it on globalism. I just disagree with you.
This is ridiculous.... If it wasn't for organizations like the UAW interfering for equal pay and rights for minorities in the 1960's well white people would still rule in this country. My grandma marched in DC in the 1960's fighting for those rights.
This deserves a response. My question is WHAT HAS THE UAW DONE FOR THE POOR? Have they made life better for those in the ghettos of Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans or Killadelphia? Or are they like Oprah and Obama? They want to take care of the poor with OPM (other people's money). Raising the wages for a few of the workers only make it more expensive of those on the bottom. And from my perspective we have as many on the bottom today as we did when I was a kid. I don't believe for a minute that the UAW has helped the poor no matter what their race may be. You can try to make it a racial issue it just does not fly with me. I was raised in black churches from the time I was about 8 years old. I have dated black girls when I was a teen. Some were as poor as us, some were not. Socialism only pushes the poor out of sight and takes their incentive to get out of the ghetto.
Some day the reality will hit you. Those UAW workers in your family were at the TOP of the heap. The poor DID NOT benefit one iota as a result of the UAW workers making top tier wages.
You really need to make that trip to Norway to learn the facts about living in a society where they tax the workers to death and the King rides around in luxury. If you want to drive in Norway you need to own the bank. Gas is the highest of any place on earth. Better get in shape as they will only let the janitors ride a bike. If they would even allow you to work there. I am very doubtful your blood lines will get you into that closed society. They have less than half the population of Michigan in the whole country.
the govt and people are trillions in debt, GM will file for bankruptcy and this is just another recession?...i hope you are right but i doubt it...GM held like 50% of usa market in 1978, now it is 22%....the usa was by far top dog in world in 1970s despite inflation, now we are biggest debtor nation in world...it is so over for us...and as someone who loved John Wayne, Chevrolet, WW2 combat vets and the american flag, i am pretty sad about our condition
Unfortunately most of what you say is true. So we can moan about it or we can figure out the best path forward. History is not going to stay where it was forever. There will always be change. Hopefully we can pick smart choices.
>Adolf Hitler thought that too. Cross German and Norse blood and you get a blond haired and blue eyed superior human being. I must be superior then as I by accident am that genetic breed.
Hmmm...
I am an Aryan, and bow my head to the Swastika everyday.
Draw your own conclusions.
I am pretty sure folks who think US is the world will rile up against me and try to ban me from this site. My argument is that learn world history before you even think of doing that.
Anyways, back to UAW, working class and equal rights. It is always a fight. Workers will fight with owners and vice versa to prove who is superior. I like that. But to come up with equality bs is just that...BS.
That is really sad. I feel the weak need to revolt against the strong aka elites. This country needs a good dose of socialism and the wealth and power needs to be redistributed back to the people of this country. The global capitalist need a rope and a noose not another bonus using tax payer money. Maybe someday people will get pissed off enough and tell the free-marketeers they had enough. I just don't know if I'll live to see it or not.
Free marketeers are the employers...EVERYTHING you have. EVERYTHING generated a profit for someone. From the fork in a drawer to the car in your driveway. Government creates nothing..They take money from people who generate income starting businesses and hiring employees. EVERY time you get a check from ANYONE you are participating in "trickle down economics" . Poor people don't employ rich people.
Next time you are in a resturant...thank the server for great service then tell them you are going to give his tip to the unemployed pan handler on the street.....There's your Socialist society. I did exactly this to prove a point to a server wearing an Obama button.....I think she "got it"
A government that takes from the productive to give to the unproductive will run out of productive people to take from....
I know this if the government takes more of my money...they will cause the letting go of one of my employees...I WON"T take a cut in pay. I will just let go of an employee...or raise prices to cover the added expense. Either way I'm not going to earn any less. I am the one who paid to send myself through school and joined the service to get the GI BIll. I am the one who lived in an apartment for 25 years trying to get my business off the ground. I finally have achieved success and even put my homes up as collateral to expand my business. Hired more employees and at 49 years old I make a good living and have taken care of my own retirement. No one will tell me how much my employees should make. They earn what they will work for and according to how VALUABLE they are individually. The same job could pay from $8 to $15 an hour. Favorites? YOU BET! The favorites are those who increase the business profit and generate more productivity. Those who don't get raises eventually quit. This ENSURES a highly productive workforce.
".....Why do you guys think the Seattle Sonics won more games than any other team in the NBA in the 1990's?"
And how many titles??? How many playoff series??? George Karl has never won ANYTHING, because it's tough to coach with both hands around your THROAT!!
BTW, as great as Payton was (he did play for the Celts a few years back, and was a great leader on that team) you can't steal what you can't find. Cousy was a magician with the ball.
Free marketeers don't really exist in everyday society. Some small business owners think of themselves as capitalist tycoons...but it's more of an ego thing. In the scheme of things, their value is barely more than a welfare recipient - they lack the means to create any change. Capitalism isn't what this society is about, it's just backwards socialism, the many funding the good of the few. Endless wars and tax breaks for the elite don't benefit but a few. The socio-economic gap has been devolving for some time.
That story of letting go an employee and living in an apartment etc reminds me of a partisan email rant I have seen circulated around. Very similar...
And please everyone, the whiny Obama rhetoric is no better than the endless rhetoric given to the Dubya regime back in the day. You can't play the high card if you don't behave in a better manner. I still see absolutely no alternative solution given by the opposition, either now or during the election. Might be a lesson learned there.... Or maybe just admit that the powers that be make it so no matter who you choose, you lose.
What is the neocon/donkey solution to the ailments of today? Can you answer this? Maybe it's time for the neocons to put up or shut up...
Nobody is equal, but the west should be forced to compete equally with nations that operate in a void of social and environmental responsibility, while the west itself undertakes expensive (read: increases costs) policies to at least lessen problems based on those ideals. All so a few can increase their profit margins. Sounds good.
Google is your friend, dude, google is your friend. Even that ridiculous puppet PM in the future Sharia state of Great Britain uses the term in describing the ridiculous unified bailout of financial entities in this so-called recession.
Oh yeah, I get it, neocon libertarian "free marketeers" don't see any kind of collusion or conspiracy behind the devolution of the western world being seen now and to be seen more as time goes on. It's all random coincidence.
you're spot on about Bill Russell, he would have to be one of my favorite centers in NBA history, if not my very favorite. And he coached the Sonic's and still shows great interest in what they once were, too. Talk about a dominant center, Bill Russell was just that.
"Did lack of control of greed and corruption (my opinion) in the funny paper markets go too far in capitalism?"...
I have a dilemma that I cannot answer in my own mind...I believe in capitalism (ay least in theory) because I believe in the ability to achieve, winners and losers...too often the losers only suffer class envy to those who took the time to take the RISK of starting a business and making it grow...the winners get to enjoy their winnings, but the best part about American capitalism is that ANYONE can try and become a success, regardless of race, creed or color...
despite that I hate Obama's politics, the fact that this nation has a (half) black president, plus Clinton came from poverty, means that this IS the land of opportunity...Clinton's child poverty and Obama's race did nothing to hold them back, and they were/are the President...
I also get riled up when the workers think they are the ones who "made" the company, when their jobs were created by someone other than themselves...that is also why when workers strike, the employer has every right to can them and hire new workers to repalce them...the one who creates the job is the one who controls the pay...if the worker does not like it, they have the complete freedom to leave, work somewhere else, or start their own business and take the risk (there it is, that risk factor again, the one factor that the employee will NEVER take out of fear...but they want the profits of the employer, the one who took the risk...to that I say NO!!!)...
The employee has all their welfare benefits...unemployment insurance if laid off, giving them 26 weeks of pay for doing nothing...workers comp insurance incase they are injured on the job...the employer has nothing...if my job was to end, I have nothing in the way of welfare, oops, social insurance to pay my bills...so, I get the profits...if employees want some of it, they can start their own law firm...
The UAW has been insulated from the real world for half a century...the fact that rocky actually thinks that floorsweeping is a skill that should be paid $25 hour means that he lives in a dream world, because it isn't worth the minimum wage paid back in Reagan's day, and it isn't worth that now...
Getting back to my dilemma...I believe in capitalism...OK, but is regulation needed???...part of me says yes, that the banks need regulation, and, if they are part of interstate commerce, it is constitutional for Congress to regulate interstate commerce...but how much, and when do we stop adding more regulations...if we know hedge funds are risky, why should they be regulated, if we KNOW we are taking a risk???...but if the baks put their money, which is our money, into a hedge fund, maybe we need regulation to control that, since I put my money in a bank for conservative safety, rather than risk...i.e. safe return OF capital vs risky return ON capital...
Should the gov't own the banks...I don't believe they should...should the gov't have demanded that banks give mortgages to people who obviously could not pay for them, solely because of discrimination???...absolutely not...lending standards of the last 50 years should never have been relaxed to allow people to buy a home they cannot afford, but that is what they did...and now we have the liberals in Congress whining how minorities are harder hurt because of foreclosures, when they should not have been given mortgages from the start...
Will UAW people be denied mortgages in the future, and will they understand why, why sweeping floors at WalMart does not pay like a UAW job from fantasyland???
Rocky, if you want socialism, please go where it already runs the nation as you would like it, so you can have all your needs taken car of by a benevolent gov't so you won't have to do a thing...don't change us any more than we have, because some of us accept the fact of winners and losers, and it is strikingly obvious that you do not accept that fact...I wonder how Beth feels about someone taking her hard earned money from her 20-plus sales last month and giving it to someone who refuses to work, altho quite able-bodied...that is what you would do rocky, if you could, because you simply cannot stand to see a winner, and you would use gov't power to takeconfiscate STEAL her money because you can't stand to see someone win in the game of capitalism...she is a winner because she is accomplishing great profits, but your thinking would drag her down to everyone else who only sells 1-2 cars monthly, because everyone should be EQUAL in your utopian society...keep your hands out of her wallet and keep it out of mine, because we worked hard for our money and can't stand to see it given to the worthless, useless and shiftless for doing nothing but eating donuts...
Where does immigration to Norway have to do anything with "blood lines"? I want a link to that one.
That was Rocky's claim to being allowed to live and work in Norway. He has Norwegian blood so he assumes they will welcome him with open arms and a high paying job. I don't believe they would give him the time of day unless he has a skill they want or is a tourist coming to spend big BUCKS.
OK, but is regulation needed???...part of me says yes, that the banks need regulation, and, if they are part of interstate commerce, it is constitutional for Congress to regulate interstate commerce...but how much, and when do we stop adding more regulations
I don't post on this forum very often, it is quite entertaining to read, but you said it all right there. The issue of how much regulation has been debated for eons and it will continue to be debated for eons to come. IMO, the banking industry needs more regulation. They shot themselves in the foot both in 1929 and 2008, and you and I are suffering for it.
".....He played on a racist team and took them to a title.Russel was above it all and said little.IMO"
Do a little fact checking, will ya?? Yes, the city was racist ( someone broke into his house once, ransacked it, and defacated in his bed ), but the TEAM??? PUHLEEZE!!!
Red Auerbach was the FIRST coach to draft a black player FIRST. HE was the FIRST to START 5 BLACK PLAYERS in a game He was the FIRST to HIRE A BLACK COACH (Russell). Yes, they had white stars like Cousy, Heinsohn, and Havlecek, but aside from Russell, you had KC Jones, Sam Jones, Tom "Satch" Sanders, and even THE John Thompson (yes, he of Hoya fame).
Later on, as GM, Red had players on his teams like Jo Jo White, Paul Silas, Tiny Archibald, Gerald Henderson, and Cedric Maxwell.
Ask any former Celtic; that organization was, is and always will be one big FAMILY!!
He's certainly wrong about being let in because of his heritage - the self-destructive ideal of postwar Europe opens the door with few conditions for non-Europeans and creates a few million metric tons of red tape for wannabe immigrants of European descent. Not a bad way to prime a society for submission into a one world government (oops, another conspiracy theory slipped out). But, all he would have to do is make up some religious story, and they'd let him in. Or just get into Sweden first, which seems to be something that is insanely easy to do, and then move.
I am sure if he had a net worth high enough, he could get in anywhere...it must work that way here too.
I don't know if Norway has NA style unions though...so he might not like it.
Should capitalism be unregulated to the point where an oligarchy develops - as the trickle-downers pretty much want to see? Is governance by corporate interests any better or worse than governance by socialists? Do the masses have any reason to trust the top 1% any more than they have to trust meddling civil servants? The government shouldn't own the banks...but for about 100 years now, the banks have essentially owned the government.
As the rich continue to consolidate wealth and the underclass grows, class envy and eventual class warfare are guarantees. It's going to be a future reality.
Overall I agree with your assessment of supervisor evaluation being flawed. I saw it being abused with assignments by those that hung out with the boss back in the early 1970s. Personalities play a much bigger part than performance unfortunately.
But, it doesn't have to be that way, though personalities will always have a way of coloring an evaluation.
Professionals at my company have been on an all-merit raise program from the mid 1980's. Part of (not all of it) what goes into your raise is your annual evaluation. The performance evaluation is done by both the employee and his/her immediate supervisor. Differences are hashed out, and it goes on up the chain.
In my case, my boss really doesn't have much insight into the work I do, because he is not working on the same programs. So, I give him names of program personnel such as the program and/or engineering managers for him to solicit for feedback on my performance. He may even ask someone I am mentoring for some comments. It's sort of a 360 deg evaluation. Even though it's somewhat of a game, it works out pretty good for most people. Even if you don't agree with your ultimate appraisal, at least you know where you stand. If you really don't think you're being treated fairly, it's fairly easy to change departments.
So, workers can be evaluated fairly, even those whose output is mostly intellectual capital. It takes some effort to make it work fairly, and there needs to be safeguards against the "rogue" supervisor, but it can be done.
Of course, a performance appraisal system is not as neat and straightforward as a union sanctioned method which just uses years of service. But, we all are aware of the shortcomings of that.
I don't know if Norway has NA style unions though...so he might not like it.
I would imagine they are all government controlled. You say anything bad about the King and you are demoted to picking after the horses in the parades. Or sent out to spend the winter on a drill rig in the North Sea. I think Rocky would have a REAL eye opener if he were to venture back to the homeland..
OSLO, March 31 (Reuters) - Norwegian labour unions and employers reached a pay deal on Tuesday, agreeing a general increase and extra for low-income workers and boosting wage costs by 3.6 percent, officials said.
The agreement provides a general one-crown-per-hour raise and extra for employees who earn less than 90 percent of the average industrial wage, the LO trade unions federation and NHO employers' group said in separate statements.
LO and NHO both said they were pleased with the agreement, which cut wage growth from 5.6 percent in last year's settlement and came before a midnight deadline for the talks.
'The result is in line with LO's demands and ensures that all members to get good wage growth and that extra pay above all benefits low-paid employees and many women,' LO's chief Roar Flaathen said in a statement.
The one-crown general rise would mean about 2,000 Norwegian crowns ($297.9) per year per wage-earner, LO said.
NHO's chief Finn Bergesen said the 3.6 percent wage growth was 'defensible' and would contribute to securing jobs.
So the average Norwegian union Skilled worker makes less than $9000 US per year. They pay $8 per gallon for gas. I hope they don't have a long drive to work. I guess that leaves Rocky out. He would not be able to afford a plane ticket.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
Do you have any credible source that the UAW EVER went on strike for better QC standards? From where I sit all of the strikes were greed based. More, more, more money and benefits.
Dad says the UAW tried when Roger Smith was CEO but when the federal mediator came to help resolve the contract he told the union you can't tell management how to run the company thus that was that. That is all I know.
gagrice: he could afford a ticket INTO Norway, but he will never get out...I am always amused at people who think it is better elsewhere...this is no utopian paradise in the USA, but we do seem to have a fair amount of freedom...and much of the freedom enjoyed in other nations around the world is simply because WE have fought for their freedom, shedding more blood for everyone else than they did for their own, except maybe Stalin's 20 million...plus, it does seem that people from all over the world want to come here, so even tho I have no experience outside the US, others seem to think this is the place to be...
Most of the planet probably lives in some kind of poverty, so the fact that we can move up in the economic scale and not stuck in some caste system, seems to be attractive to some...plus, when you add up all the poor here who have homes or apartments, air conditioning, daily food, a car or 2, they are not so poor after all...there is NO cosmic right to just HAVE things because you want them, but we have so much here...as someone said, I don't remember where I read it, "I want to go to America where even the poor people are fat"...obviously coming from someone where there really is gross starvation and extreme poverty...
fintail: "Should capitalism be unregulated to the point where an oligarchy develops - as the trickle-downers pretty much want to see? Is governance by corporate interests any better or worse than governance by socialists? Do the masses have any reason to trust the top 1% any more than they have to trust meddling civil servants?"...all good points to ponder...the rich will always be in control simply because the poor are too ignorant to barely run their own lives...now, I don't want the rich running MY life, but the rich will always drift to the top, so, maybe we can just get them to leave us alone...that, to me, was the point of the theory of limited gov't in this country...coin money, provide for the common defense, and (slightly)regulate interstate commerce, and then GET GOV'T OUT OF THE WAY, and let citizens live their lives...for those who make it, great, those who don't, tough cookies...let us live in liberty and freedom and stay out of our daily lives...let the churches take care of the downtrodden, because the churches will see that they get some work out of them, even if it is just sweeping the church floor (and not at $25/hour with benefits)...once welfare became impersonal with a gov't bureaucrat, we first lost control of the recipient (if we pay their bills we have every right to control them) and we now have a gov't bureaucrat with an interest in keeping them on welfare, or else the bureaucrat's job goes away...
There will always be poor among us, simply because many have no initiative, no work ethic, no desire to improve, and just want to exist and be paid to do nothing...
Wait a minute: no initiative, no work ethic, no desire to improve, and just want to exist and be paid to do nothing>...that sums up the UAW to a T...at least the laid off floorsweepers will be able to keep the churches clean... :P
This is probably closer to reality. An engineer starts at about $16 and tops out at $22 per hour. They have a 40 hour work week and only 1.4 times for Overtime. That means an engineer will top out at about $45k per year. I don't think you will see any smart people moving to Norway soon. It proves again why so many people want into the USA.
I think that pretty well proves that paying an unskilled worker in an Auto factory $15 per hour is SUPER generous. At least our gas does not have $6 per gallon tax like Norway. When you have a fat cat King you got to make him look good. The income tax starts at 35% and goes to 50%. So you take home a lot less than here. And their economy is tanking with the low price of oil. They got nothing else to support them.
What percentage of their pay did the old timers get cut?
They did not take a cut. GM was pushing for a two-tiered wage scale for the new hires. They told the old timers we will allow you to keep what you got if you allow us when we buy a lot of you out and replace your old jobs with new hires a two-tiered wage scale with cuts here and there benefits wise. They agreed along with the VEBA.
How much are the retirees now paying for gold plated health care?
It's not gold plated anymore. Dad has a PPO and has some out of pocket expenses. I think he pays like $800 bucks a year or something plus copays.
You do realize your dream of health care for all will not be even close to the plan the retirees are now getting. No dental or eyecare is in the plan. Being on Medicare as the plan will emulate does not help when you go to the dentist.
We don't know yet what is and won't be covered unless you have a inside look at BO or Congress plan??? :surprise: I realize it won't be anything like private insurance plans but it's better than nothing which is a very good possibility that might be what they get from GM.
My wife and I just paid $302 to have our teeth cleaned. Heck we need pet health care. A trip to the vet for our cat was $255. And he is healthy. He was not eating and the vet said give him the cheap Friskies canned food and that worked.
Trust me dad would switch retirement benefits with you gagrice in a New York second. I would love to have your retirement when I get to your age. It's not likely going to happen. :sick: I am a animal lover thus what kind of kitty do you have or is he a mix??? I love Beth's cat. Her name is Skitty. Only Beth, could come up with such a crazy name. She purchased her out of a cage in Mexico for $2 bucks.
Back to your la la land beliefs on GM and the economy. You have NEVER addressed WHY GM was losing $BILLIONS when the economy was booming from 2004-2007.
What??? Boooming??? Are you nuts???? You really need to go back to school yourself and take some economic classes. Our economy was losing millions of jobs back then and just because the stock market was artifically high with no meat to back up those numbers and the housing market was being driven up by ARM's doesn't make the economy sound. [non-permissible content removed] that's right your buddy McSame said the fundamentals of the economy were strong thus that must make it so. :P
All Wagoner years in control. Don't give me fair trade or currency manipulation. That just does not fly. They could not sell their crap cars at way below the competition with employee pricing and tons of cash on the hood. Why was Wagoner building crap cars from the time he took over till he was pushed out. 2 or 3 winners out of 30+ models is not a good reference for Wagoner to put on his CEO resume'.
Wagoner couldn't turn a giant ship like GM around over night. With years of abuse from Roger and Jack Smith it was going to take years to develop the R&D needed to steer that big ship in safer waters. Remember GM isn't some Ma and Pa outfit like you were use to working for thus it takes A LOT longer!!!!!
"...you don't have to worry, your Commie President Obama will do it for you...
I sure hope so!!!
Maybe Beth has been wearing turtle neck sweaters...that is NOT the way to better sales...
She looks hot in turtle neck sweaters but it's been way to warm around here to be wearing one of those. She looked very "hot" on Saturday when we went out.
This country grew over the last 2 hundred years by being as capitalistic as possible...your desire for more and more socialism is simply a flaw in the mind...
It is the only alternative for people to regain control of there government and get a piece of the pie. The global capitalist don't have my best interests at heart. :mad:
In capitalism, there will be winners and losers...and the losers always say it isn't fair, but they never realize that the winners move us forward...Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, could they have thrived in a socialistic environment like Russia, (Norway, as you put it)???...I don't think so...
Yeah they could because there are a lot of billionaires in Europe's socialistic society. I know Germany has a few multi-billionaires despite it's small size. The difference is they wouldn't be able to exploit the people quite as easily.
The very fact that there are winners means that there will be losers...but losers in our form of capitalism still means that jobs will be had for the masses from the business, not from government 5-year plans...we are in a changing environment and I am of the thought that the gov't should step back and let capitalism and the market do what it will, rather than step in and control it...
We have had deregulation for years now and look at where it's gotten us. The government needs to play a role in order to keep out the excesses "greed" of the elites. When people jobs are on the line they make sure things get done to keep the people happy. That is why I welcome more government involvement.
More and more critical readings about FDR and the Depression say that FDR and his interventionism only prolonged the Depression and that WWII got us out of it...while we will never know the actual truth of the matter, it does make one wonder if FDR did nothing, would we have come out of it much sooner...after all, we had depressions in the century before FDR, and there was no gov't interference, and we never read about those, simply because they were nothing to be concerned with...I always wonder if the "Great Depression" would have been so "great" if FDR sat back and let market forces simply do what they do...
Who says that the Misean Scholars you worship??? FDR is arguably the greatest president of all-time. His job was simpler due to the fact that he wasn't competing on a global scale and we didn't have the treasonist think tanks in power. People were proud to be and buy american back in those days. That is the main difference and we have lost that nationalism.
And now you want even more socialism...I cannot respect that thought process...if Norway is so good, why don't you simply go there???...I am sure they can train you in some useful job...
Comments
Whatever gagrice. I had a lot of responsibility when I worked in the warehouse and it required a very sharp mind to keep track of everything. I didn't work where you did thus I can't judge.
PS
When I worked there the warehouse jobs all went to friends and relatives of the Teamster leaders. A real SORE spot for most of the Union members.
Well I don't really agree with that either but it's better than all the friends of management like at most places.
-Rocky
I personally think that's unfair. A donkey deserves a working wage, too. So what if he's stubborn - if he has the same seniority he is doing the same job! :P He's just an [non-permissible content removed]!
tlong, that is very funny pal!!!
-Rocky
So if UAW believes that all workers are equal, and they should be paid the same, irrespective of the work they do, they are in fact asking an [non-permissible content removed] to be recognized as a horse.
This is ridiculous.... If it wasn't for organizations like the UAW interfering for equal pay and rights for minorities in the 1960's well white people would still rule in this country. My grandma marched in DC in the 1960's fighting for those rights. She is blond haired and blue eyed Norwegian thus she had nothing to gain personally. So don't give me this survival of the fittest BS because if people like her didn't risk their life like she did many of you non-whites wouldn't have any rights at all in this country. White people would still rule because based on your "survival of the fittest" white people must be smarter and we should of never allowed minorities to have any rights. Am I correct??? I'm just using the same theory as you. "survival of the fittest". and not all people were created equal as god intended. Adolf Hitler thought that too. Cross German and Norse blood and you get a blond haired and blue eyed superior human being. I must be superior then as I by accident am that genetic breed. I don't think I am superior despite being proud of my heritage. It is mind boggling how warped some of ya'lls theories are. :surprise: FYI- Grandma was almost ran over by a racist in a truck that was angry at her protesting for equal rights. I hope my response shows you how ridiculous that theory is. I've came up with some whoppers myself to argue a point but that one topped my worst ones I think.
-Rocky
Marsha7, this isn't China, this is america and at one time we had morals and paid people a fair wage and benefits. I don't know your background and how you were raised but obviously we don't think at all a like. The market is the enemy. Someday you will realize that as the wheels of this economy can't turn on a globalist mentality. We will go broke. We are having to borrow from China, to make up for all the lost tax revenue because of that market. I'm sorry I don't agree.
It isn't communism for the peasants, it is the market as it is...somebody needs someone simply to stock shelves, and, probably, lift bags of sand or concrete that weogh 90 pounds...rocky, this does not take any brains, just someone to show up and perform manual labor with a little bit of reading stock numbers on boxes of hardware...it is barely worth minimum wage as it takes NO SKILL at all...it is not a peasant issue, it is a mindless issue, as the one who does it really needs little brains and some brawn...why do YOU think the job is worth more???
I think it's worth more because making mininum wage is ridiculously low. It should be set at $10 bucks an hour and instead of that money going back into the greedy hardware owner or corporation it can go to the guy who is doing the work. Let's just say he is a mindless sheep and all he will ever be able to do is that type of work well his back will be shot someday then what. Taking him to the firing squad and shoot him and get a new grunt. I swear that isn't far off from what you Mises think tanks believe. I would rather live under Stalin or Pol Pot rule than what you guys have in store for us. :surprise: Jeeeeeeeeepers!!! :surprise:
If someone has a wife and 3 kids at home, that DOES NOT make the job worth more, it is still unskilled labor, like it or not...that means the person may work another job in addition to the hardware job, because his needs are more than the market will pay for his skills, and that is nobody's fault but his own...
Well not all employers think like you. There are some good ones out there that believe people should be paid a livable wage above what your beloved market says. I see it as exploitation of people. A guy making minimum wage in California, is a joke. It might be worth something in Georgia, but not Cali.
I am sure that dancing takes talent, but when a family has lost a job, I am also sure that dancing lessons are no longer a priority for the family...enough families and the dance instructor no longer teaches because no one will pay...if the dance teacher has a $2000 monthly mortgage payment and applies for the hardware job, is that any reason why the hardware job should pay more???...no...the dance instructor, for that job, becomes simple unskilled labor, barely worth minimum wage...
Again I don't believe in Misenomics like you.
Your perceptions are...simply...wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!...you believe that any entry level job should make someone able to afford a half million $$$ home, simply because you think it is nice for people to be paid well...just because some people stay in an unskilled position is no reason to assume the rest of the world will pay them more than the job is worth, and most entry level jobs are worth barely minimum wage...only in "UAW land" are you people spoiled enough to think that an unskilled job requring no mental ability would pay $25/hour or more (think floorsweeping, placing wheels on hubs, etc.)...
Your perception is a race to the bottom. Hope you like it. I guess it benefits people like you because that means more clients. Perhaps that is the real motive behind your thinking??? The poorer people are the more likely they will call up Marsha & Associates.
con't.......
You, gagrice, and from hell Mises, Roger Smith, will be a happy bunch. :sick:
I suppose you and gagrice will have to meet up for a victory toast? Yaaaaaay the middle class and american dream is destoryed. You guys can touch your crystal glasses in a toast and can concentrate on your next motive whatever that might be? That's a scary thought. :sick:
Get used to it, and it isn't communism...it IS paying someone for the value of their work, and unskilled work is not worth much on the open market...type the words "unskilled worker" into Google, and it takes about a millionth of a second for the UAW logo to pop up on your computer screen...the gravy train for the unskilled and uneducated auto worker is over, but a half a century of fooling the American people was a nice ride while it lasted...
I did and I didn't see anything to do with the UAW "pop up"...Just another one of your false theories. You should quit practicing law and get your own radio show or something. :confuse:
-Rocky
You are so full of it!!! Kemp, said Malone was who he wanted to be like. However he didn't have Malone's character or work ethic to be as good as him. Shawn "The Freak" Kemp, could jump out of the gym but that is about all he had. He couldn't shoot and was one dimensional. The Mailman finished his career 2nd all-time scoring behind Jabbar and if his mom wouldn't of died he could of played a year or two to grab the scoring title. I was really upset he didn't go after it but remember Malone never cared about records despite retiring with many of them.
Hey, rockford, do ya think your favorite GM is gonna make it?
I don't know iluv. I am worried pal. :sick:
And if you think they will, do ya think Fo-Mo-Co's crushing debts will also lead to their demise?
I don't know that either. Beth has only sold 5 cars this month. Things aren't looking good thus far. I spent the evening with Beth over a few Miller Lite's. I tried to cheer her up and give her some optomism. So many of her other friends are going through tough times also. Her best friend outside of me lives in Florida, and I just found out she had her job eliminated because the company she worked for closed up.
And Chrysler's friendly CAW workers are killing their survival chances for merging with Fiat as I type this out. Correct?
That sounds right. I read something to that fact. I haven't followed the Chrysler deal so much because I'm worried about GM and Delphi. My step-dad just got laid-off Friday thus we are very worried about the future of his job. :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
For those that think GM going under will be devastating, they ain't seen nothing yet. Before this Congress and administration are through with the America we will be totally devastated. Cap n Trade, CO2 emissions, no more coal, Card Check are all buzz words used in the campaign. They are ALL detrimental to manufacturing in the USA. The leaders of the developing countries, mainly China and India have already said they will not do anything that slows down their economies. Some industries are just not going to be lily white clean. Much of them are in the Midwest, so they will be so over burdened with CO2 fines that they will have no choice but leave the country. It will UAW wages seem insignificant. California politicians like Waxman are leading this charge. The CA do gooder pol have already blocked most new industry in the state. Expect in on a National level over the next decade.
Actually Japan is in much worse shape from debt than the USA. As far as the Bulls, they are not nearly as great as the Celtics that won 8 straight and 17 total. Even the lousy Lakers have 8 more titles than the splash in the pan Bulls. MJ was probably one of the very best. I liked Bill Russell as all around best player. His team won 11 NBA titles. No other team even close.
I didn't want to pass certain parts but was ordered by my supervisor to "Ship It" even though the parts were borderline bad.
Do you have any credible source that the UAW EVER went on strike for better QC standards? From where I sit all of the strikes were greed based. More, more, more money and benefits.
What percentage of their pay did the old timers get cut? I cannot find where they lost a penny in wages. How much are the retirees now paying for gold plated health care? You do realize your dream of health care for all will not be even close to the plan the retirees are now getting. No dental or eyecare is in the plan. Being on Medicare as the plan will emulate does not help when you go to the dentist. My wife and I just paid $302 to have our teeth cleaned. Heck we need pet health care. A trip to the vet for our cat was $255. And he is healthy. He was not eating and the vet said give him the cheap Friskies canned food and that worked.
Back to your la la land beliefs on GM and the economy. You have NEVER addressed WHY GM was losing $BILLIONS when the economy was booming from 2004-2007. All Wagoner years in control. Don't give me fair trade or currency manipulation. That just does not fly. They could not sell their crap cars at way below the competition with employee pricing and tons of cash on the hood. Why was Wagoner building crap cars from the time he took over till he was pushed out. 2 or 3 winners out of 30+ models is not a good reference for Wagoner to put on his CEO resume'.
Maybe Beth has been wearing turtle neck sweaters...that is NOT the way to better sales...
This country grew over the last 2 hundred years by being as capitalistic as possible...your desire for more and more socialism is simply a flaw in the mind...
In capitalism, there will be winners and losers...and the losers always say it isn't fair, but they never realize that the winners move us forward...Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, could they have thrived in a socialistic environment like Russia, (Norway, as you put it)???...I don't think so...
The very fact that there are winners means that there will be losers...but losers in our form of capitalism still means that jobs will be had for the masses from the business, not from government 5-year plans...we are in a changing environment and I am of the thought that the gov't should step back and let capitalism and the market do what it will, rather than step in and control it...
More and more critical readings about FDR and the Depression say that FDR and his interventionism only prolonged the Depression and that WWII got us out of it...while we will never know the actual truth of the matter, it does make one wonder if FDR did nothing, would we have come out of it much sooner...after all, we had depressions in the century before FDR, and there was no gov't interference, and we never read about those, simply because they were nothing to be concerned with...I always wonder if the "Great Depression" would have been so "great" if FDR sat back and let market forces simply do what they do...
And now you want even more socialism...I cannot respect that thought process...if Norway is so good, why don't you simply go there???...I am sure they can train you in some useful job...
You have to do better than that. There are dozens of options to Oslo from MI every day. All under a $grand.
Funny your cousins moved to Canada, mine moved out of Toronto and now live in Branson, MO. They were so happy when they got their US citizenship. They want NO PART or a government sponsored health care plan. They been there and done that. The high taxes far out weighed the benefits in Canada.
I was brought up in a very realistic world where good paying jobs in manufacturing were plentiful.
Just like the days of the buggy builders. Reality has changed. The dirty industry jobs in the USA are gone NEVER to return. And companies were bailing out of the Midwest in the 1960s for many and various reasons. The poor workforce being the leading cause. They found they could get the same level of unskilled labor in the South or out of the country as they could in the Midwest. By the way they started leaving PA long before they did the Midwest. Unfortunately you are only able to see one side of the coin.
That's what I keep thinking about the current recession. The recession was progressing through its steps before the government started intervening in what may prove to be the wrong ways by using it as an excuse to throw extra money into all kinds of pet, useless, projects.
> let capitalism and the market do what it will,
Did lack of control of greed and corruption (my opinion) in the funny paper markets go too far in capitalism? Did the ability of the hedge funds to sell down the very market from which they benefited by the sell down to lower prices make the recession worse? I believe yes because it has caused the people to feel even more financially at risk so they are not spending or investing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you think that statement is correct you have been LIED to. The overall unemployment was higher than Michigan is today. Somewhere around 13% for the WHOLE country. Not just your little world.
The newbies had the choice to take the job or not.
So you are in favor of a two tiered wage scale. You need to make up your mind if you really believe in Unions being for equality in the workplace.
Rick Wagoner is one of the smartest human beings to ever walk this earth.
You do have some strange Heros. Wagoner, Hoffa, Reuther and Hitler.
You really need to study our history. We are a Socialist state and have been moving that direction since LBJ was President. Most of our economic problems today are caused by the idea that we should take care of everyone. Even those capable yet unwilling to work. It is a disaster in the making. Giving everyone that wanted a home a loan was the straw that broke the camels back. You cannot blame that on globalism or unfair trade. It was Socialism meets Capitalism and together they made a mess of our economy.
Move there. You can get a round trip ticket for $781 on several airlines. I don't think they would take you. You want a King, I think we have one here.
this is america and at one time we had morals and paid people a fair wage and benefits.
I can tell you that in the 1950s, 60s & 70s that a larger percentage of the population were working for minimum wage than now. It was $1.25 when I first started working for someone else in 1957 at 14 years or age. Slave labor, that was me and thankful for the job. Benefits, what were benefits. You are still living in the dream world that was the Midwest. Though I believe if you were allowed to think for yourself as a child you would have been able to see all those NOT in the UAW were far less paid. Not even ONE percent of the Michigan population are in the UAW. The rest are scrambling to make a living. CA is in much the same situation. I blame it on high taxes and regulation. You blame it on globalism. I just disagree with you.
This deserves a response. My question is WHAT HAS THE UAW DONE FOR THE POOR? Have they made life better for those in the ghettos of Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans or Killadelphia? Or are they like Oprah and Obama? They want to take care of the poor with OPM (other people's money). Raising the wages for a few of the workers only make it more expensive of those on the bottom. And from my perspective we have as many on the bottom today as we did when I was a kid. I don't believe for a minute that the UAW has helped the poor no matter what their race may be. You can try to make it a racial issue it just does not fly with me. I was raised in black churches from the time I was about 8 years old. I have dated black girls when I was a teen. Some were as poor as us, some were not. Socialism only pushes the poor out of sight and takes their incentive to get out of the ghetto.
Some day the reality will hit you. Those UAW workers in your family were at the TOP of the heap. The poor DID NOT benefit one iota as a result of the UAW workers making top tier wages.
You really need to make that trip to Norway to learn the facts about living in a society where they tax the workers to death and the King rides around in luxury. If you want to drive in Norway you need to own the bank. Gas is the highest of any place on earth. Better get in shape as they will only let the janitors ride a bike. If they would even allow you to work there. I am very doubtful your blood lines will get you into that closed society. They have less than half the population of Michigan in the whole country.
Unfortunately most of what you say is true. So we can moan about it or we can figure out the best path forward. History is not going to stay where it was forever. There will always be change. Hopefully we can pick smart choices.
Fighting for your rights is not a problem. But believing that everybody is equal is!!!
Fight. Win. and Survive. That is the rule of nature.
Hmmm...
I am an Aryan, and bow my head to the Swastika everyday.
Draw your own conclusions.
I am pretty sure folks who think US is the world will rile up against me and try to ban me from this site. My argument is that learn world history before you even think of doing that.
Anyways, back to UAW, working class and equal rights. It is always a fight. Workers will fight with owners and vice versa to prove who is superior. I like that. But to come up with equality bs is just that...BS.
Free marketeers are the employers...EVERYTHING you have. EVERYTHING generated a profit for someone. From the fork in a drawer to the car in your driveway. Government creates nothing..They take money from people who generate income starting businesses and hiring employees. EVERY time you get a check from ANYONE you are participating in "trickle down economics" . Poor people don't employ rich people.
Next time you are in a resturant...thank the server for great service then tell them you are going to give his tip to the unemployed pan handler on the street.....There's your Socialist society. I did exactly this to prove a point to a server wearing an Obama button.....I think she "got it"
A government that takes from the productive to give to the unproductive will run out of productive people to take from....
I know this if the government takes more of my money...they will cause the letting go of one of my employees...I WON"T take a cut in pay. I will just let go of an employee...or raise prices to cover the added expense. Either way I'm not going to earn any less. I am the one who paid to send myself through school and joined the service to get the GI BIll. I am the one who lived in an apartment for 25 years trying to get my business off the ground. I finally have achieved success and even put my homes up as collateral to expand my business. Hired more employees and at 49 years old I make a good living and have taken care of my own retirement. No one will tell me how much my employees should make. They earn what they will work for and according to how VALUABLE they are individually. The same job could pay from $8 to $15 an hour. Favorites? YOU BET! The favorites are those who increase the business profit and generate more productivity. Those who don't get raises eventually quit. This ENSURES a highly productive workforce.
Catch a clue.........
Geeze, no wonder you guys struck in '68
And how many titles??? How many playoff series??? George Karl has never won ANYTHING, because it's tough to coach with both hands around your THROAT!!
BTW, as great as Payton was (he did play for the Celts a few years back, and was a great leader on that team) you can't steal what you can't find. Cousy was a magician with the ball.
That story of letting go an employee and living in an apartment etc reminds me of a partisan email rant I have seen circulated around. Very similar...
And please everyone, the whiny Obama rhetoric is no better than the endless rhetoric given to the Dubya regime back in the day. You can't play the high card if you don't behave in a better manner. I still see absolutely no alternative solution given by the opposition, either now or during the election. Might be a lesson learned there.... Or maybe just admit that the powers that be make it so no matter who you choose, you lose.
What is the neocon/donkey solution to the ailments of today? Can you answer this? Maybe it's time for the neocons to put up or shut up...
All one needs to do to get into Europe is claim asylum. The suicidal mindset created by the allied occupation will let anyone in.
Oh yeah, what has the GOP "done for the poor"?
Oh yeah, I get it, neocon libertarian "free marketeers" don't see any kind of collusion or conspiracy behind the devolution of the western world being seen now and to be seen more as time goes on. It's all random coincidence.
We've got the OKC Thunder to watch lose, a new franchise to award to Seattle, and life goes on. Bill Gates gets richer.
The UAW will still not bend, under any circumstance. Tick, tock...tick, tock.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I have a dilemma that I cannot answer in my own mind...I believe in capitalism (ay least in theory) because I believe in the ability to achieve, winners and losers...too often the losers only suffer class envy to those who took the time to take the RISK of starting a business and making it grow...the winners get to enjoy their winnings, but the best part about American capitalism is that ANYONE can try and become a success, regardless of race, creed or color...
despite that I hate Obama's politics, the fact that this nation has a (half) black president, plus Clinton came from poverty, means that this IS the land of opportunity...Clinton's child poverty and Obama's race did nothing to hold them back, and they were/are the President...
I also get riled up when the workers think they are the ones who "made" the company, when their jobs were created by someone other than themselves...that is also why when workers strike, the employer has every right to can them and hire new workers to repalce them...the one who creates the job is the one who controls the pay...if the worker does not like it, they have the complete freedom to leave, work somewhere else, or start their own business and take the risk (there it is, that risk factor again, the one factor that the employee will NEVER take out of fear...but they want the profits of the employer, the one who took the risk...to that I say NO!!!)...
The employee has all their welfare benefits...unemployment insurance if laid off, giving them 26 weeks of pay for doing nothing...workers comp insurance incase they are injured on the job...the employer has nothing...if my job was to end, I have nothing in the way of welfare, oops, social insurance to pay my bills...so, I get the profits...if employees want some of it, they can start their own law firm...
The UAW has been insulated from the real world for half a century...the fact that rocky actually thinks that floorsweeping is a skill that should be paid $25 hour means that he lives in a dream world, because it isn't worth the minimum wage paid back in Reagan's day, and it isn't worth that now...
Getting back to my dilemma...I believe in capitalism...OK, but is regulation needed???...part of me says yes, that the banks need regulation, and, if they are part of interstate commerce, it is constitutional for Congress to regulate interstate commerce...but how much, and when do we stop adding more regulations...if we know hedge funds are risky, why should they be regulated, if we KNOW we are taking a risk???...but if the baks put their money, which is our money, into a hedge fund, maybe we need regulation to control that, since I put my money in a bank for conservative safety, rather than risk...i.e. safe return OF capital vs risky return ON capital...
Should the gov't own the banks...I don't believe they should...should the gov't have demanded that banks give mortgages to people who obviously could not pay for them, solely because of discrimination???...absolutely not...lending standards of the last 50 years should never have been relaxed to allow people to buy a home they cannot afford, but that is what they did...and now we have the liberals in Congress whining how minorities are harder hurt because of foreclosures, when they should not have been given mortgages from the start...
Will UAW people be denied mortgages in the future, and will they understand why, why sweeping floors at WalMart does not pay like a UAW job from fantasyland???
Rocky, if you want socialism, please go where it already runs the nation as you would like it, so you can have all your needs taken car of by a benevolent gov't so you won't have to do a thing...don't change us any more than we have, because some of us accept the fact of winners and losers, and it is strikingly obvious that you do not accept that fact...I wonder how Beth feels about someone taking her hard earned money from her 20-plus sales last month and giving it to someone who refuses to work, altho quite able-bodied...that is what you would do rocky, if you could, because you simply cannot stand to see a winner, and you would use gov't power to
takeconfiscateSTEAL her money because you can't stand to see someone win in the game of capitalism...she is a winner because she is accomplishing great profits, but your thinking would drag her down to everyone else who only sells 1-2 cars monthly, because everyone should be EQUAL in your utopian society...keep your hands out of her wallet and keep it out of mine, because we worked hard for our money and can't stand to see it given to the worthless, useless and shiftless for doing nothing but eating donuts...That was Rocky's claim to being allowed to live and work in Norway. He has Norwegian blood so he assumes they will welcome him with open arms and a high paying job. I don't believe they would give him the time of day unless he has a skill they want or is a tourist coming to spend big BUCKS.
I don't post on this forum very often, it is quite entertaining to read, but you said it all right there. The issue of how much regulation has been debated for eons and it will continue to be debated for eons to come. IMO, the banking industry needs more regulation. They shot themselves in the foot both in 1929 and 2008, and you and I are suffering for it.
Do a little fact checking, will ya?? Yes, the city was racist ( someone broke into his house once, ransacked it, and defacated in his bed ), but the TEAM??? PUHLEEZE!!!
Red Auerbach was the FIRST coach to draft a black player FIRST. HE was the FIRST to START 5 BLACK PLAYERS in a game He was the FIRST to HIRE A BLACK COACH (Russell). Yes, they had white stars like Cousy, Heinsohn, and Havlecek, but aside from Russell, you had KC Jones, Sam Jones, Tom "Satch" Sanders, and even THE John Thompson (yes, he of Hoya fame).
Later on, as GM, Red had players on his teams like Jo Jo White, Paul Silas, Tiny Archibald, Gerald Henderson, and Cedric Maxwell.
Ask any former Celtic; that organization was, is and always will be one big FAMILY!!
I am sure if he had a net worth high enough, he could get in anywhere...it must work that way here too.
I don't know if Norway has NA style unions though...so he might not like it.
As the rich continue to consolidate wealth and the underclass grows, class envy and eventual class warfare are guarantees. It's going to be a future reality.
But, it doesn't have to be that way, though personalities will always have a way of coloring an evaluation.
Professionals at my company have been on an all-merit raise program from the mid 1980's. Part of (not all of it) what goes into your raise is your annual evaluation. The performance evaluation is done by both the employee and his/her immediate supervisor. Differences are hashed out, and it goes on up the chain.
In my case, my boss really doesn't have much insight into the work I do, because he is not working on the same programs. So, I give him names of program personnel such as the program and/or engineering managers for him to solicit for feedback on my performance. He may even ask someone I am mentoring for some comments. It's sort of a 360 deg evaluation. Even though it's somewhat of a game, it works out pretty good for most people. Even if you don't agree with your ultimate appraisal, at least you know where you stand. If you really don't think you're being treated fairly, it's fairly easy to change departments.
So, workers can be evaluated fairly, even those whose output is mostly intellectual capital. It takes some effort to make it work fairly, and there needs to be safeguards against the "rogue" supervisor, but it can be done.
Of course, a performance appraisal system is not as neat and straightforward as a union sanctioned method which just uses years of service. But, we all are aware of the shortcomings of that.
I would imagine they are all government controlled. You say anything bad about the King and you are demoted to picking after the horses in the parades. Or sent out to spend the winter on a drill rig in the North Sea. I think Rocky would have a REAL eye opener if he were to venture back to the homeland..
Norway unions, employers reach wage deal
03.31.09, 05:31 PM EDT
OSLO, March 31 (Reuters) - Norwegian labour unions and employers reached a pay deal on Tuesday, agreeing a general increase and extra for low-income workers and boosting wage costs by 3.6 percent, officials said.
The agreement provides a general one-crown-per-hour raise and extra for employees who earn less than 90 percent of the average industrial wage, the LO trade unions federation and NHO employers' group said in separate statements.
LO and NHO both said they were pleased with the agreement, which cut wage growth from 5.6 percent in last year's settlement and came before a midnight deadline for the talks.
'The result is in line with LO's demands and ensures that all members to get good wage growth and that extra pay above all benefits low-paid employees and many women,' LO's chief Roar Flaathen said in a statement.
The one-crown general rise would mean about 2,000 Norwegian crowns ($297.9) per year per wage-earner, LO said.
NHO's chief Finn Bergesen said the 3.6 percent wage growth was 'defensible' and would contribute to securing jobs.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009/03/31/afx6237310.html
So the average Norwegian union Skilled worker makes less than $9000 US per year. They pay $8 per gallon for gas. I hope they don't have a long drive to work. I guess that leaves Rocky out. He would not be able to afford a plane ticket.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
Dad says the UAW tried when Roger Smith was CEO but when the federal mediator came to help resolve the contract he told the union you can't tell management how to run the company thus that was that. That is all I know.
-Rocky
Most of the planet probably lives in some kind of poverty, so the fact that we can move up in the economic scale and not stuck in some caste system, seems to be attractive to some...plus, when you add up all the poor here who have homes or apartments, air conditioning, daily food, a car or 2, they are not so poor after all...there is NO cosmic right to just HAVE things because you want them, but we have so much here...as someone said, I don't remember where I read it, "I want to go to America where even the poor people are fat"...obviously coming from someone where there really is gross starvation and extreme poverty...
fintail: "Should capitalism be unregulated to the point where an oligarchy develops - as the trickle-downers pretty much want to see? Is governance by corporate interests any better or worse than governance by socialists? Do the masses have any reason to trust the top 1% any more than they have to trust meddling civil servants?"...all good points to ponder...the rich will always be in control simply because the poor are too ignorant to barely run their own lives...now, I don't want the rich running MY life, but the rich will always drift to the top, so, maybe we can just get them to leave us alone...that, to me, was the point of the theory of limited gov't in this country...coin money, provide for the common defense, and (slightly)regulate interstate commerce, and then GET GOV'T OUT OF THE WAY, and let citizens live their lives...for those who make it, great, those who don't, tough cookies...let us live in liberty and freedom and stay out of our daily lives...let the churches take care of the downtrodden, because the churches will see that they get some work out of them, even if it is just sweeping the church floor (and not at $25/hour with benefits)...once welfare became impersonal with a gov't bureaucrat, we first lost control of the recipient (if we pay their bills we have every right to control them) and we now have a gov't bureaucrat with an interest in keeping them on welfare, or else the bureaucrat's job goes away...
There will always be poor among us, simply because many have no initiative, no work ethic, no desire to improve, and just want to exist and be paid to do nothing...
Wait a minute: no initiative, no work ethic, no desire to improve, and just want to exist and be paid to do nothing>...that sums up the UAW to a T...at least the laid off floorsweepers will be able to keep the churches clean... :P
I think that pretty well proves that paying an unskilled worker in an Auto factory $15 per hour is SUPER generous. At least our gas does not have $6 per gallon tax like Norway. When you have a fat cat King you got to make him look good. The income tax starts at 35% and goes to 50%. So you take home a lot less than here. And their economy is tanking with the low price of oil. They got nothing else to support them.
They did not take a cut. GM was pushing for a two-tiered wage scale for the new hires. They told the old timers we will allow you to keep what you got if you allow us when we buy a lot of you out and replace your old jobs with new hires a two-tiered wage scale with cuts here and there benefits wise. They agreed along with the VEBA.
How much are the retirees now paying for gold plated health care?
It's not gold plated anymore. Dad has a PPO and has some out of pocket expenses. I think he pays like $800 bucks a year or something plus copays.
You do realize your dream of health care for all will not be even close to the plan the retirees are now getting. No dental or eyecare is in the plan. Being on Medicare as the plan will emulate does not help when you go to the dentist.
We don't know yet what is and won't be covered unless you have a inside look at BO or Congress plan??? :surprise: I realize it won't be anything like private insurance plans but it's better than nothing which is a very good possibility that might be what they get from GM.
My wife and I just paid $302 to have our teeth cleaned. Heck we need pet health care. A trip to the vet for our cat was $255. And he is healthy. He was not eating and the vet said give him the cheap Friskies canned food and that worked.
Trust me dad would switch retirement benefits with you gagrice in a New York second. I would love to have your retirement when I get to your age. It's not likely going to happen. :sick: I am a animal lover thus what kind of kitty do you have or is he a mix??? I love Beth's cat. Her name is Skitty. Only Beth, could come up with such a crazy name. She purchased her out of a cage in Mexico for $2 bucks.
Back to your la la land beliefs on GM and the economy. You have NEVER addressed WHY GM was losing $BILLIONS when the economy was booming from 2004-2007.
What??? Boooming??? Are you nuts???? You really need to go back to school yourself and take some economic classes. Our economy was losing millions of jobs back then and just because the stock market was artifically high with no meat to back up those numbers and the housing market was being driven up by ARM's doesn't make the economy sound. [non-permissible content removed] that's right your buddy McSame said the fundamentals of the economy were strong thus that must make it so.
All Wagoner years in control. Don't give me fair trade or currency manipulation. That just does not fly. They could not sell their crap cars at way below the competition with employee pricing and tons of cash on the hood. Why was Wagoner building crap cars from the time he took over till he was pushed out. 2 or 3 winners out of 30+ models is not a good reference for Wagoner to put on his CEO resume'.
Wagoner couldn't turn a giant ship like GM around over night. With years of abuse from Roger and Jack Smith it was going to take years to develop the R&D needed to steer that big ship in safer waters. Remember GM isn't some Ma and Pa outfit like you were use to working for thus it takes A LOT longer!!!!!
-Rocky
I sure hope so!!!
Maybe Beth has been wearing turtle neck sweaters...that is NOT the way to better sales...
She looks hot in turtle neck sweaters but it's been way to warm around here to be wearing one of those. She looked very "hot" on Saturday when we went out.
This country grew over the last 2 hundred years by being as capitalistic as possible...your desire for more and more socialism is simply a flaw in the mind...
It is the only alternative for people to regain control of there government and get a piece of the pie. The global capitalist don't have my best interests at heart. :mad:
In capitalism, there will be winners and losers...and the losers always say it isn't fair, but they never realize that the winners move us forward...Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, could they have thrived in a socialistic environment like Russia, (Norway, as you put it)???...I don't think so...
Yeah they could because there are a lot of billionaires in Europe's socialistic society. I know Germany has a few multi-billionaires despite it's small size. The difference is they wouldn't be able to exploit the people quite as easily.
The very fact that there are winners means that there will be losers...but losers in our form of capitalism still means that jobs will be had for the masses from the business, not from government 5-year plans...we are in a changing environment and I am of the thought that the gov't should step back and let capitalism and the market do what it will, rather than step in and control it...
We have had deregulation for years now and look at where it's gotten us. The government needs to play a role in order to keep out the excesses "greed" of the elites. When people jobs are on the line they make sure things get done to keep the people happy. That is why I welcome more government involvement.
More and more critical readings about FDR and the Depression say that FDR and his interventionism only prolonged the Depression and that WWII got us out of it...while we will never know the actual truth of the matter, it does make one wonder if FDR did nothing, would we have come out of it much sooner...after all, we had depressions in the century before FDR, and there was no gov't interference, and we never read about those, simply because they were nothing to be concerned with...I always wonder if the "Great Depression" would have been so "great" if FDR sat back and let market forces simply do what they do...
Who says that the Misean Scholars you worship??? FDR is arguably the greatest president of all-time. His job was simpler due to the fact that he wasn't competing on a global scale and we didn't have the treasonist think tanks in power. People were proud to be and buy american back in those days. That is the main difference and we have lost that nationalism.
And now you want even more socialism...I cannot respect that thought process...if Norway is so good, why don't you simply go there???...I am sure they can train you in some useful job...
I would rather be a part of the movement here.
-Rocky