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Comments
There are strong correlations between educational levels, crime, drugs, and illegitimacy. Most UAW workers are not highly educated (or they wouldn't be working as UAW).
You tied all of those non-election related things to her. They also are non-UAW related things. I just reviewed a few things related to Obama who's very union oriented and Biden talked about how he loved the union in the private, no press, meeting in Florida with, I believe, the UAW folks. I hope he didn't plagarize his speech.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I thought the democrats were pro labor and the republicans anti-labor? Certainly Bush was more "average" (or lower) intelligence? We just had the "pro-labor" party elected and the unions are still not happy? What is it going to take? Perhaps their day has passed if even the democrats aren't going to save them? :confuse:
I believe, and always have, that the UAW was a necessity back in the 30s, 40s, and maybe into the 50s...just like buggy whip makers had their day, and were then simply no longer needed...same with the UAW...whether you accept it or not, for what the UAW does, they are highly overpaid and will never see those type earnings again...simple truth is that many of them never went beyond 3rd grade but earn far in excess of what they are truly worth, and they will approach their true worth as this auto market evolves in the next 2 years...
I fully believe that GM will survive, just in a smaller corporation, similar to Kmart...they have closed many stores and shrunk, but they are still out there...GM will do the same...maybe with fewer cars to think about, all of them may be as well built as the CTS and Malibu...
As far as turnover in the UAW, whoever said that turnover would be low due to the wages for unskilled work was right...I am not concerned with turnover, I am simply concerned with the worker showing up sober, on time, and not on drugs, and with a decent work attitude, which leaves much of the UAW out...even back in the 60s and 70s, it was well known that you did NOT want your car made on a Monday or Friday, as they were either drunk on Friday (payday) or hung over on Monday...that was 50 years ago this nation knew the poor quality of Detroit iron...rotten on Mon and Fri, OK on Tue, Wed, Thu...that means 40% of production should have been avoided even back then...
So, if we knew back then the UAW problems, you still trying to convince me of the skill level and work quality of the UAW???...so many were probably drunk it was a miracle that cars had wheels installed on them...
I would be shocked if lemko's cars were made on a Mon or Fri...
Ya left out the black helicopters with the hush kits on their rotor blades!
A dumbed down one world government born by the NWO will be a benefit to all.
There's no such thing as independent press...
-Rocky
-Rocky
I never said that. However you want to pay people poverty wages. In our union at Pantex everyone with the same job classification made the same money. Why should they not if you are doing the same job. You are for seniority in one aspect and not another. I'll borrow a line from another poster :P "You can't have it BOTH ways"
Sometimes I think you would line everyone up and pay everybody from CEO to the janitor the same amount.
That is not true but I think the Japanese have the right ratio of 15 times it's lowest worker thus the CEO should not make but 15 times more than their lowest paid employee.
You are living in an absolute dream world. So Wagoner should not make more than the engineer that should not make anymore than the janitor. You totally ignore the facts of life. Jobs are paid no more than the market will bear.
I love your market talk again. It's laughable. You must be reading Mises again.
I don't want a neuro surgeon working on me that just came out of High School and thinks he can do the job.
That was a ridiculous example gagrice. :confuse:
Think man, a Warehouseman is not worth anymore than $10-$15 per hour in this economy.
Well that depends on the warehousemans responsibility. Sometimes there is a lot of responsibility in a warehouse like inventory control and shipping and receiving thus I've done that line of work at 3 of my previous jobs.
Oscar at Delphi that was filing for bankruptcy was over paid by at least double. And that is just one of the many reasons they are bankrupt.
If everyone made the wages you want them to be paid this country would be in worse shape than it already is. Making $10-15 bucks an hour is poverty. You are literally broke. You can't afford jack crap on those wages. Anyone doing unskilled labor in this country should be able to afford to support themselves. It's not going to happen on poverty wages.
-Rocky
I got news for you. There are millions of people living on just that and less. The idea is to take an entry level job such as warehouse work and get educated to advance to a higher level. I started in the mailroom at just above minimum wage while the techs were making 4 times as much as I made. In six years I had worked up to technician and was making the going rate for the job. And it was CWA. I paid for medical and after 9 years had NO pension and still no sick leave on the first day sick. An entry level job paying $10 per hour is extremely good. Especially in a down economy. You will have people knocking the door down for a job like that. The hardware store here has a help wanted sign in the window. Must be able to lift 90LBS. I asked what that job starts at. Minimum wage and it is part time. I suppose when you have been out of work another year or so you might welcome a minimum wage job. I have done it and survived. I did not buy a new car or live high on the hog. I rented a small room and ate lots of fresh veggies. You need a dose of reality.
And who and what is this new world order?
Because some people are excellent at their jobs and others barely get by?
Do you really think that the lousy teacher and the dedicated teacher who goes above and beyond to help their kids, each with the same education and seniority, should get the same pay for "doing the same job"? If so, what is the incentive for any of them to do a better job?
Sorry, but there is a word for the waitresses, store checkers, grocery clerks and fast food employees who think their jobs are careers. That word is LOSER. Those jobs are for second jobs for working spouses, kids going to college, or part time work for high school students. Anybody who is a career swing manager at MickeyD's probably has no education and an illegitimate kid with their girlfriend. They have made very poor choices and have few skills. They should marry somebody who is educated so that at least one of them can earn a decent living.
People who want success need to get off their butts and do something about it. For those too lazy or incapable, society has a safety net that will keep them from starving. Personally I'm sick of seeing graffiti in inner cities. If the societal mooches were hungry enough and looking for food they wouldn't have time to be defacing property.
It's a jungle out there. There is a reason that some people are above the average. It is because others are BELOW the average. People who make poor choices or who are lazy live the consequences - don't whine about it. The ultimate accountability. Something the UAW does not like at all. The alternative society is everybody is the same, everybody earns the same. We all know how well that worked for 40 years in Eastern Europe. Be lazy, work very little, and have food, shelter, cigarettes, alcohol and not much else. What a fabulous existence.
Just because you did it doesn't make it right. I've made mininum wage a few times in my life but should be able to work for a lot more than that due to my skill level. Just because DC and Wall Street have destroyed our economy makes it right. I don't need a dose of reality as I'm living it. If my kids weren't in this country I would seriously consider moving to Norway. The politicians and neocons globalist have destroyed this country and I'm beginning to believe we are at the point of no return. :mad: :sick:
An entry level job paying $10 per hour is extremely good. Especially in a down economy. You will have people knocking the door down for a job like that.
You won't be independent on that kind of money with the cost of living. You will need a room mate or a spouse to make it.
The hardware store here has a help wanted sign in the window. Must be able to lift 90LBS. I asked what that job starts at. Minimum wage and it is part time.
So the greedy hardware store owner is taking advantage of the down economy. That is what is happening. He could probably pay $10 an/hr. but they know a lot of people are looking for work and why not exploit them. If this isn't a form of communism for the peasants I don't know what else you could call it.
I suppose when you have been out of work another year or so you might welcome a minimum wage job. I have done it and survived. I did not buy a new car or live high on the hog. I rented a small room and ate lots of fresh veggies. You need a dose of reality.
I doubt I'll be out of work for another few weeks let alone a year. I am doing what I can to survive and it makes me sick to see our country in this shape. :sick:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Do you really think that the lousy teacher and the dedicated teacher who goes above and beyond to help their kids, each with the same education and seniority, should get the same pay for "doing the same job"? If so, what is the incentive for any of them to do a better job?
Probably not but how are you going to find that out??? Testing students IMHO isn't a good bar as to who is a good teacher and who isn't. I think seniority should only matter during job cut backs and bidding jobs. If someone is doing the same job as the next guy/gal they should make the same. I don't or never will agree with two-tier wage scales.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I agree that you need to protect against favoritism. I also agree that two-tier wage scales are not good. But the unions have forced them. Many of the airlines have two-tier scales. The alternative is evaluating individuals and differentiating pay for performance -- NOT seniority based. Why should an old worn out teacher with 30 years experience who is lousy make way more than a young upstart who teaches better? Tenure is one reason our public schools are lousy. One year on the job and then you are guaranteed for life unless you royally screw up. Very little accountability.
I don't know (probably a topic for some other forum). But, I have broached the topic of performance-based-pay with some teachers I know and with the local teacher's union, and they can't answer it either. So,if the professionals don't know the characteristics of a good teacher, who does? So they get something that can be used as a measure, which is standardized testing, no matter how crude or irrelevant that may be.
It's always amusing to see how the public thinks they know how to ascertain effectiveness as a teacher. When it comes to public secondary schools, it will usually be related to athletics. The coaches will be most popular and therefore must be the best educator. You will hear all kinds of meandering logic trying to join their popularity in the adults' minds to that being the test of a teacher.
Testing the students doesn't work. The students are variables. This is the same as blaming the UAW for not passing the test by making a top notch automobile out of the parts which C/GM/F provided to them.
The other technique for varying pay for the same job is to base it on popularity with the supervisor who is allowed/assigned to do the evaluation of said work output. A local city just changed their pay structure and evaluation methods to try to get around the structured/tiered pay system. Of course, oddly, the first thing being pointed out is the nepotism already in place in that city's jobs. Hmmmm. How fair do we think that will be? Let me think, a bad job by a nephew or a good job by a nonrelative who points out how to improve the job: whom will we have to let go? I'm sure Rocky can point out the answer to that after being in a family-owned business recently.
The only way to circumvent the problems in evaluations is to make the evaluator at risk when they fire, remove, replace, instead of improve the worker. If the 2nd dismissed worker by the manager means the manager is removed from the company completely, not just demoted, you'll see much better evaluations occur and you'll see efforts to improve the job done rather than shuffle the relatives or friends in and remove the others.
Imagine is supervisors at GM/Delphi had been rewarded for improving job performance by those under them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
the higher up you are the more you will make weather your worth it or not, but thats just how it is. trust me some people would love to be making up words of 25 to 30 dollars per hour but in most cases it's not going to happen, so my suggestion to you people who think your employer should be responsable for your gas bill shut the hell up because as a person whos been thier your job could be gone tomarrow. so enjoy what you have, so you may not be able to buy that new car but at least your not walking like alot of us. so people please believe me when i tell you it will get worse before it ever gets better ,so before you lose your job to the other side of the world think twice before you ask for that wage in crease because you think the $25.00 per hour is'nt enough. try giong from $26.00 to $7.15 that will slap you in the face..
If you are making the big bucks with long vacations in Norway you can afford to see your kids more often. Flights to the EU are cheap if you take the specials. Not a good excuse.
You won't be independent on that kind of money with the cost of living. You will need a room mate or a spouse to make it.
Of course not. It is ENTRY LEVEL. What does that mean to you? UNSKILLED like most of the UAW workforce should be considered ENTRY LEVEL. An opportunity to get more education and a decent job. Even in the 1960s you could not get a high paying job without a College Degree. You had two other choices learn a trade or be loser all your life.
So the greedy hardware store owner is taking advantage of the down economy.
I will repeat myself. IT IS AN ENTRY LEVEL JOB. Who ever heard of anyone making a career out of stocking shelves. Even checkout jobs that are Union would be considered a low standard of living. If that is all you are capable of doing you get to live at that level of society. You will have lots of company as you will have to live in an urban dwelling with most of the rest of the low income society. You really were brought up in an unrealistic World.
I doubt I'll be out of work for another few weeks let alone a year. I am doing what I can to survive and it makes me sick to see our country in this shape.
Ask anyone outside the UAW what 1977-1981 was like. This is NOTHING by comparison. It is just another recession. With GM and C possibly collapsing you will see close to the unemployment caused by Carter and his 20% interest. You think it is tough buying a car now. You should have tried getting a loan in 1979. And the fat cats were making out much better than this recession. They were sitting on Treasury bills paying 17% interest. At least this recession is hurting most everybody across the board from Buffett to the working class.
If someone is doing the same job as the next guy/gal they should make the same. I don't or never will agree with two-tier wage scales.
On that we agree. I felt the oldtimers at the UAW really stuck it to the newbies to protect their own GREEDY self interest. It will bite them in the butt.
Do you think in this "Brave New World" people with a cookie cutter MBA are going to fall in that 1% of elites.
NOPE, it also takes drive and determination. Wagoner proved that an incompetent person can go to the top. He also shows what happens when you get there and are clueless how to get the job done. :P
We have a guy in church now with a PHD. He lost his $100k+ job and is working minimum wage to eat. Lives with a friend that took him in. Life is tough some time. The strong survive and the weak die. That is Nature's way of eliminating the weak ones. Our society has a lot to learn about letting nature take its course. When all are on welfare who will pay the bills?
without any owners, there would be no workers.
To add insult to injury, Owner has an upper hand because workers are plentiful, owners are not.
Harder? A donkey works hard too....carrying loads. That does not entitle him to the status of a Horse.
Yes I did. The Warehouse people had UAW type work rules. They delivered packages to all the sites. If a box weighed one ounce over 25lbs, they took an extra guy along. They did not move furniture except on weekends. And if they caught you moving your desk it was grievance time. They should have never made more than half of the technical peoples wages. Or maybe the telephone operators. The Operators under the same Union contract were about $12 under the technicians. Warehouse work requires NO SKILLS AT ALL. Just a weak mind and a handout on pay day. Not even a strong back if you are a Union warehouse man.
PS
When I worked there the warehouse jobs all went to friends and relatives of the Teamster leaders. A real SORE spot for most of the Union members.
LOL!
I personally think that's unfair. A donkey deserves a working wage, too. So what if he's stubborn - if he has the same seniority he is doing the same job! :P He's just an [non-permissible content removed]!
So if UAW believes that all workers are equal, and they should be paid the same, irrespective of the work they do, they are in fact asking an [non-permissible content removed] to be recognized as a horse.
So the greedy hardware store owner is taking advantage of the down economy. That is what is happening. He could probably pay $10 an/hr. but they know a lot of people are looking for work and why not exploit them. If this isn't a form of communism for the peasants I don't know what else you could call it"
rocky, your problem is that you keep thinking that simple, entry level jobs are worth much more than the REAL market will bear...real is defined as anything outside of your UAW world, where, somehow, you think that floorsweeping is skilled labor because the guy has a UAW local to represent him...
It isn't communism for the peasants, it is the market as it is...somebody needs someone simply to stock shelves, and, probably, lift bags of sand or concrete that weogh 90 pounds...rocky, this does not take any brains, just someone to show up and perform manual labor with a little bit of reading stock numbers on boxes of hardware...it is barely worth minimum wage as it takes NO SKILL at all...it is not a peasant issue, it is a mindless issue, as the one who does it really needs little brains and some brawn...why do YOU think the job is worth more???
If someone has a wife and 3 kids at home, that DOES NOT make the job worth more, it is still unskilled labor, like it or not...that means the person may work another job in addition to the hardware job, because his needs are more than the market will pay for his skills, and that is nobody's fault but his own...
I am sure that dancing takes talent, but when a family has lost a job, I am also sure that dancing lessons are no longer a priority for the family...enough families and the dance instructor no longer teaches because no one will pay...if the dance teacher has a $2000 monthly mortgage payment and applies for the hardware job, is that any reason why the hardware job should pay more???...no...the dance instructor, for that job, becomes simple unskilled labor, barely worth minimum wage...
Your perceptions are...simply...wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!...you believe that any entry level job should make someone able to afford a half million $$$ home, simply because you think it is nice for people to be paid well...just because some people stay in an unskilled position is no reason to assume the rest of the world will pay them more than the job is worth, and most entry level jobs are worth barely minimum wage...only in "UAW land" are you people spoiled enough to think that an unskilled job requring no mental ability would pay $25/hour or more (think floorsweeping, placing wheels on hubs, etc.)...
Your people are about to get their first dose of reality in half a century when they find out that most jobs that are unskilled simply do not pay ANYTHING like the no-skill UAW jobs they have had over those years...when the superfluous UAW folks who are finally dumped to bring the company back to profitability start job-hunting, the reality will strike them in the face like a nuclear blast...NO ONE WILL PAY THEM OVER $8-10/HOUR WHEN THE EMPLOYER FINDS OUT THEIR SKILL LEVEL IS ZERO...any job they apply for will be a shock to them, as they learn what the real world pays for workers with minimal brains and no skills...don't even think for a minute that Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai will look at them past the application stage, because once they see under "work history" Ford Motor Company, 20 years assembly, or even 5 years assembly, they will drop that app like a hot potato, because hiring a former UAW worker would be like hiring a Muslim terrorist to work in a synogogue...a bomb waiting to explode...
Get used to it, and it isn't communism...it IS paying someone for the value of their work, and unskilled work is not worth much on the open market...type the words "unskilled worker" into Google, and it takes about a millionth of a second for the UAW logo to pop up on your computer screen...the gravy train for the unskilled and uneducated auto worker is over, but a half a century of fooling the American people was a nice ride while it lasted...
1) Gary Payton at guard
2) Shawn Kemp at power forward
And I mean power forward. Yeah, jealous types point to the illegitimate kids and the weight put on. I know, those are not things to be proud of. But, and it's a big but, when Shawn played the game, he played the game with dominating skill and talent. Defense, rebounding, passing were things he did well. Something he did great was quickly moving to the basket and dunking the ball while people like K.Malone stood there thumbing their navel, wondering what the hell just happened to them.
No, Cousy was a great one. But Bob Cousy didn't harass the entire other team as relentlessly as GP. No sir, no way. While you're starting to get that droopy lip thing going on trying to keep dribbling, Gary would steal the ball from you(ever heard the nickname The Glove before?)and sprint to the other end and lay it gently in. Increasing the Sonic's lead.
Hey, rockford, do ya think your favorite GM is gonna make it? And if you think they will, do ya think Fo-Mo-Co's crushing debts will also lead to their demise? And Chrysler's friendly CAW workers are killing their survival chances for merging with Fiat as I type this out. Correct?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That is not true pal. A union would never leave money on the table. Pantex, pushed for a two-tier wage scale until they found out it would cost them more money trying to keep track of who made what because of all the movement Job/Title that took place on the protective force. Trust me the UAW would never leave money on the table for it's members.
Many of the airlines have two-tier scales. The alternative is evaluating individuals and differentiating pay for performance -- NOT seniority based.
That would create favoritism as you said. It would boil down to who was a brown noser and who wasn't. I've never worked at a company where favoritism wasn't going on. My management respected me because they knew I would do my job well but the slacker would get as good and better raise because he went to the bar with his boss. That is one flaw of performance based raises and seniority and a union contract is the best IMHO to eliminate those flaws so somebody like me doesn't get screwed. My brother is a manager at a Meijer C-stop and his wage was tied to how the store did and because they screwed up he didn't get a raise this year even though his store ranked the highest in the area. He was like I have zero control how well the big store is ran but my raise was affected by there performance. I feel really bad for him because he's like Meijer's had a really good year last year and yet he gets screwed despite him getting a great review from upper management. :confuse:
Why should an old worn out teacher with 30 years experience who is lousy make way more than a young upstart who teaches better? Tenure is one reason our public schools are lousy. One year on the job and then you are guaranteed for life unless you royally screw up. Very little accountability.
True but I don't know how else you can do it because if we do it based on tests then teachers will not teach the subject but only teach there class on how to prepare for the test and get good marks on it sense there raise will be tied to it. Do you understand where I'm coming from??? I also have many friends who are teachers and I know each of them are good at what they do because of there personalities. My brother has one of my friends (Ryan) as a teacher and he says he's a awesome teacher but I always knew Ryan would be.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Agree pal!!!
Testing the students doesn't work. The students are variables. This is the same as blaming the UAW for not passing the test by making a top notch automobile out of the parts which C/GM/F provided to them.
100% Agree!!!
The other technique for varying pay for the same job is to base it on popularity with the supervisor who is allowed/assigned to do the evaluation of said work output. A local city just changed their pay structure and evaluation methods to try to get around the structured/tiered pay system. Of course, oddly, the first thing being pointed out is the nepotism already in place in that city's jobs. Hmmmm. How fair do we think that will be? Let me think, a bad job by a nephew or a good job by a nonrelative who points out how to improve the job: whom will we have to let go? I'm sure Rocky can point out the answer to that after being in a family-owned business recently.
Yep and look at where it got me????
The only way to circumvent the problems in evaluations is to make the evaluator at risk when they fire, remove, replace, instead of improve the worker. If the 2nd dismissed worker by the manager means the manager is removed from the company completely, not just demoted, you'll see much better evaluations occur and you'll see efforts to improve the job done rather than shuffle the relatives or friends in and remove the others.
Imagine is supervisors at GM/Delphi had been rewarded for improving job performance by those under them.
All true....However it still boils down to the engineering. Did a UAW member ever make a mistake or a bad part??? You betchya. I'm not ignorant. However there are suppose to be quality checks and when I worked at JCI I didn't want to pass certain parts but was ordered by my supervisor to "Ship It" even though the parts were borderline bad. His main concern was getting the scrap loss down since his pay and performance review depended on it. That is one of many flaws in the system. I think imidazol97 would agree there should be rewards for quality and not quanity or how much scrap you save the company because if it's tied to that it will eventually catch up to you. I remember we shipped SUV headliners to GM and the UAW members on the assembly line rejected them because they didn't meet spec. I remember telling my coworkers we tried to tell management and now they are pissed off because they got there [non-permissible content removed] chewed by JCI higher ups and I didn't want to hear the whining. The specific problem was "blow outs" on the "A-Pillar" which required a massive amount of gluing with the glue gun on the fiber glass board which met with headliner material on the A-Pillars. The oven press was the cause of the problem but it also was are fiberglass board supplier not making a quality enough board.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Flying to Norway would be a couple grand mininum. I also have no idea what I would do for employment there and haven't done any research into it. My cousin and his wife moved to Canada just a few months ago for a better life. She is taking advantage of the free education to become a nurse and they pay her so much a month for child care expenses and help them with housing. Sounds like something we need here!!!
Of course not. It is ENTRY LEVEL. What does that mean to you? UNSKILLED like most of the UAW workforce should be considered ENTRY LEVEL. An opportunity to get more education and a decent job. Even in the 1960s you could not get a high paying job without a College Degree. You had two other choices learn a trade or be loser all your life.
I beg to differ. Unlike the south we had good paying manufacturing jobs in the 1960's here in the midwest. Ask lemko about Philly and imidazol97 about his city the manufacturing beacon of U.S. Dayton, Ohio
I will repeat myself. IT IS AN ENTRY LEVEL JOB. Who ever heard of anyone making a career out of stocking shelves. Even checkout jobs that are Union would be considered a low standard of living. If that is all you are capable of doing you get to live at that level of society. You will have lots of company as you will have to live in an urban dwelling with most of the rest of the low income society. You really were brought up in an unrealistic World.
I was brought up in a very realistic world where good paying jobs in manufacturing were plentiful. Employers invested in there people and if you wanted to go to college and get that journeymens card or cookie cutter MBA to move into management well the world was yours.
con't.........
That is laughable. Not even Carter whom I agree ranks as one of the worse president of all-time has put us in a hole like Bush. Dubya will go down as the worst economic president of all-time. Yes he has already topped Carter and his high interest rates. At least back in those times people had a freaken job or could find one if you wanted to work. You know how much I hate your hero but even in his terrible recession after recession economy people could find work and it paid something. My whole family was working and made good money at there union jobs but that was only because Reagan's tax break to off-shore hadn't taken root yet until the end of his term. :mad:
On that we agree. I felt the oldtimers at the UAW really stuck it to the newbies to protect their own GREEDY self interest. It will bite them in the butt.
The newbies had the choice to take the job or not. If I would of wised up sooner and realized my marriage was a lost cause I should of relocated back to Michigan and took one of those GM jobs. I could of had one. I know hindsight is 20/20. :sick: They were making $18 an/hr. with no benefits but the UAW finally got them some benefits thus I wouldn't call it a total screw job gagrice especially since you think they are only worth mininum wage.
NOPE, it also takes drive and determination. Wagoner proved that an incompetent person can go to the top. He also shows what happens when you get there and are clueless how to get the job done.
Rick Wagoner is one of the smartest human beings to ever walk this earth. He was out manned by you global capitalist and lost the battle. However I believe if GM follows his playbook he will win the war.
-Rocky
That is really sad. :sick: I feel the weak need to revolt against the strong aka elites. This country needs a good dose of socialism and the wealth and power needs to be redistributed back to the people of this country. The global capitalist need a rope and a noose not another bonus using tax payer money. :mad: Maybe someday people will get pissed off enough and tell the free-marketeers they had enough. I just don't know if I'll live to see it or not. :sick:
-Rocky
To add insult to injury, Owner has an upper hand because workers are plentiful, owners are not.
Well we are seeing ownership shifting from the individuals to the state aren't we??? :P I wouldn't have a bit of a problem with the "state" taking ownership of many of our insitutions. It works great in Norway!!!!
-Rocky
A horse can't do certain tasks nearly as efficient as a donkey thus what makes the horse worth anymore than a donkey??? :P
-Rocky