Yeah. Palin is off-topic, but maybe host could entertain a new off-topic board, similar to Race to White House of past, that would discuss screw-ups by Obama and his administration. If that board had been started on Jan 20, the number of posts would probably already exceed this UAW board. Is there need for and are there any UAW locals in Alaska? If so, how does Palin treat them?
I hope you are just as happy if they succeed and a 1/3rd of those people lose their jobs. I don't think they will be successful as the smart politicians know that Walmart will cut jobs to keep prices low and profits high. Unlike the ignorant managers and CEO Wagoner at GM.
So, Palin, who is far more qualified and credentialed to be U.S. President than current guy, also has first hand experience with Union membership. She, as VP, could have "Felt their (UAW) pain" and have pragmatic economic solutions much more so than Biden and his boss.
If you were performing guard duty, as an actual guard, you SHOULD be paid for your 8 hours...you missed my point...I was referring to a position where a person is paid for 8 hours just for opening and closing a gate, a task which takes under 2 minutes...if you were a guard, of course you should not only be paid, but if you do a good job, and nothing goes wrong, you should be paid for doing "nothing"...
Like police and fire departments...if there was no crime and no fires, we would still have our PD and FD on duty 24/7, with the hope of paying them to do "nothing"...
But the gate opener/closer would be the typical UAW type 2 inutes of work for 8 hours pay plus benefits...
Sometime sarcasm is difficult to transmit...
But the Law Firm of Marsha and Rocky???...can you detect the sarcasm???...I would sooner join the UAW... :P
I think if you could see into the heart of Obama and Biden there would be NO LOVE for the working men and women in this country. Except for the tax dollars they can extract. They will not woo the UAW, what's left of them, for 3 more years. Hoping they will have forgotten being sold out. The biggest blow to the middle class union worker will be amnesty for 10- 20-30 million more good workers that are now in the country illegally. They have made a shambles of the construction Unions in many states. A contractor cannot compete paying $25-$30 per hour union wages plus benefits when there are contractors hiring illegal day labor for $12 per hour without any benefits. And some are likely not paying into SS or the IRS. I would expect most of the jobs now done by the UAW to be Non-Union paying a max of $15 per hour after bankruptcy. Ford will have to move out of the country or get some significant reductions from the UAW. That last round was a joke in My opinion. They have not addressed the legacy costs to any reasonable extent. It will be painful for those retirees under 65. They may have to get a job. Nothing says you get to quit work at 55. That is an ancient dream that only a few will attain from this point forward.
The sad thing is Marsha7, is the day before I and the owner were high-fiving as I told him how well he did in his interview with the local news. He asked my opinion and I told him he looked great and did a great job. I guess that is why I was so stunned he didn't get involve and hear my side of the story. All I got was a exit interview with the F&I manager. It was the most odd thing I've ever seen in my working career and I might be paying for it now finding that next job.
It's my experience that if a family-owned business did not want to hear honest, constructive criticism from somebody that means the best for them, then you DON'T want to be working for that firm. They have bigger problems and it will almost certainly bite them in the [non-permissible content removed] soon enough.
It might look bad right now but in the long run it will have been a blessing.
I still think you should broaden your horizons on where you would be willing to relocate.
My other point is you will never get the quality control from forced/slave labor.
You say this in reference to China, but we all know that UAW-made iron in the US was particularly crappily assembled in the '70's and 80's (ignoring whether that is true today or not). The UAW, with their jewel-encrusted compensation, is the OPPOSITE of forced/slave labor. It doesn't seem to make anything better.
I keep asking the question and nobody gives me a straight answer - WHAT is the value to the business of the higher UAW salaries and benefits? Why would any company want the UAW if they are more expensive? Where are the UAW strikes for higher quality products rather than more gold in their pockets?
If the higher UAW costs translated to superior products that the company could see, then it might be worth it. But shoddy UAW built cars mean that not only the D3 have been paying through the nose, but that they don't even get good value for that. And guess what? The US consumer has figured it out, which is why the D3 are in trouble and the D2 are on life support.
I keep asking the question and nobody gives me a straight answer - WHAT is the value to the business of the higher UAW salaries and benefits? Why would any company want the UAW if they are more expensive? Where are the UAW strikes for higher quality products rather than more gold in their pockets?
Of course, you already know the answer to that one. No company actually wants a union, particularly one as militant and as anti-business as the UAW. But for many businesses, it's a necessary evil they have to deal with; just another cost of doing business, at least in some parts of the country.
From cnnmoney: However, Henderson dismissed speculation that GM (GM, Fortune 500) was planning to cut its Buick and GMC brands and focus only on Chevrolet and Cadillac.
He also denied that the company now prefers to fix its problems with a bankruptcy filing, rather than an out-of-court restructuring, saying the company still prefers to avoid bankruptcy.
But he said he couldn't give odds as to how likely it was that the company will be able to avoid bankruptcy, adding that the decision on whether or not to file will be made in conjunction with the government.
The Treasury Department has loaned the company $13.4 billion so far and is looking at providing it additional assistance -- but only if GM proves it is able to be a viable business for the long-term.
Henderson also said that negotiations with both the United Auto Workers union and the company's bondholders have not yet started in earnest.
He said the company needs to come up with a new business plan before there can be intensive negotiations with those parties. He added the UAW will need to conclude talks with rival Chrysler LLC, which is working under even a tighter deadline than GM to avoid bankruptcy.
Another 20,000 jobs will also be cut in US by 2012. I don't see how there will be more refinement of the product with fewer workers and fewer different products. To hold current levels will be tough.
VW may have passed Toyota to nab #1 sales spot worldwide. In Germany, 30% of all sales are to VW. One hometown manufacturer grabs 30% of the countries entire market. Talk about Nationalism. In S. Korea you get audited (taxes) if you buy a non-Korean vehicle new.
It isn't that there is a value to the business they work for. The value is to all of us who work for a larger, more powerful entity. The thing the UAW fought for and won are the things tens of millions of us enjoy in America. Maybe their time has passed but if so, I hope that there isn't an erosion of what they have gained and has trickled down to many of us. A fair wage, Medical coverage, time and a half, vacations, dental, vision, paid holidays, 8 hr day, pensions. If we see continued erosion in those areas like I have already seen a lot of over the last 10 years, we may know why. Those perks are NOT associated with globalism.
VW may have passed Toyota to nab #1 sales spot worldwide. In Germany, 30% of all sales are to VW. One hometown manufacturer grabs 30% of the countries entire market. Talk about Nationalism.
It has nothing to do with Nationalism. It has to do with the facts. Those are that VW offers the best cars with the BEST mileage on the Planet. The Europeans know it and buy them. If they were offered here we would be buying them instead of the junky eco cars GM imports from Korea. Or the cars Ford brings up from Mexico.
GM readies plans for bankruptcy it hopes to avoid >
If GM fails to reach agreements to make deep reductions in some $28 billion of unsecured debt, cut labor costs and rework the funding of a healthcare trust for United Auto Workers union retirees, the automaker could be forced into bankruptcy.
Without any workers to do the job there would be no company thus what is your point?
The point is there are about 20 million more workers in the USA than there are jobs. That makes them LESS valuable to someone starting a company or owning a company. It is a simple case of supply and demand. For every UAW worker on the job there are probably 1000 that would take the job for half the wage. More than capable and be tickled to get it. It is UNSKILLED LABOR, pure and simple. Maybe a few that do maintenance have higher skill levels. Well they will be harder to replace, so they should get more. To pay a guy inserting parts on a car half as much as the guy that repairs the machinery is just crazy.
It was like my first Teamster job. They paid the warehousemen a buck less an hour than the trained technicians. If you don't think that caused a row, you are mistaken. The warehouse crew were all part of the inside group at the Teamsters.
When I threatened to transfer into the warehouse, my boss had a fit. He begged and pleaded. I told him the supervisor we had was worthless. Guess what the supervisor was canned. I stayed at my job for 2 more months then quit and took the job in the Arctic. To this day I cannot believe they paid those guys even half what we made. It was totally ridiculous. That was riding on our coat tails. They made at least $10 more per hour than any other ware house job in the state.
I would drill the crap out of our oil here and buy only from Canada, Mexico, Norway while investing tens of billions in alternative sources like bio-diesel, natural gas, cold fusion, hydrogen, plug-in hybrids, etc, thus letting the middle east drink there oil. I would buy "Terror Free" oil if we had those gas stations here.
That is really sad because foreign steel ran them out of business!!!
That certainly didn't help, but I believe the company was poorly run too. Lots of money had been spent on some bad acquisitions too I believe. Sounds familiar huh!
Both Sarah Palin and her husband have had Union Jobs. Her husband is in the United Steel Workers.
Maybe that explains why she didn't know what magazines and newspapers she read, kept seeing Russia from her back yard, and her and her husband's relatives all have drug and illegitimate child problems? :P
They still have define benefit plans pal atleast around here they do
For new hires in the private sector. Even the Civil Service pensions are cut way back from what they used to be. Defined benefit is NOT defined Pension. Sure most companies still pay part of your health care or all of it. How many have a pension plan that is Defined like the old timers at GM. You said the new hires were not included.
It isn't that there is a value to the business they work for. The value is to all of us who work for a larger, more powerful entity. The thing the UAW fought for and won are the things tens of millions of us enjoy in America. Maybe their time has passed but if so, I hope that there isn't an erosion of what they have gained and has trickled down to many of us. A fair wage, Medical coverage, time and a half, vacations, dental, vision, paid holidays, 8 hr day, pensions. If we see continued erosion in those areas like I have already seen a lot of over the last 10 years, we may know why. Those perks are NOT associated with globalism.
Dave - we agree completely on this one!
I do think that the current government protections for workers were not there when the unions first gained power. Certainly the unions were a huge and important step in the evolution of labor in the US. The government regulations, OSHA, etc, protect workers in ways the unions first protected workers in the past. We should have great gratitude for the union evolution in this country.
However, their time of usefulness has passed. They are destroying competitiveness and even helping send jobs overseas, which is not what any of us want.
Did you pay them Union Scale for the trade you hired them to do? If you did not, you are one of the capitalist pigs you love to hate. I'm sure a Union Plumber gets at least $30 plus benefits.
if palin, reaches out for union support next election and plays that card of promising to shut down NAFTA and protect american business then she might have a real shot of winning a state like mine. I don't think she has enough Duncan Hunter thinking in her.
Look at the parallel re: immigration here and in Europe. Sounds more like a global plan, no matter who the chosen few allow to be elected.
A gigantic race to the bottom.
Can't agree at all with some big conspiracy theories for the existence of global elitists.
Humans are humans. There are greedy ones and there need to be safeguards. The rules of the system allowed the greedy ones to start feathering their caps. It's not a conspiracy, it's just opportunism. The enemy is *US*.
The race to the bottom is first and foremost caused by too many people on the planet. And you could easily argue that the United States, with its hugely disproportionate consumption of resources, is hurting most of the rest of the people. So perhaps all of us are the elitists. Isn't it all our "plan* to consume to the detriment of the others? Or are we just being human?
Given that rationale, we should all move back to grass huts as we are overconsuming to hurt the rest of the population. It's part of our "plan". And so is the UAW!
I would drill the crap out of our oil here and buy only from Canada, Mexico, Norway while investing tens of billions in alternative sources like bio-diesel, natural gas, cold fusion, hydrogen, plug-in hybrids, etc, thus letting the middle east drink there oil. I would buy "Terror Free" oil if we had those gas stations here
Good luck with that! I mean, really. It would take 5-10 years even if it were possible.
If you were performing guard duty, as an actual guard, you SHOULD be paid for your 8 hours...you missed my point...I was referring to a position where a person is paid for 8 hours just for opening and closing a gate, a task which takes under 2 minutes...if you were a guard, of course you should not only be paid, but if you do a good job, and nothing goes wrong, you should be paid for doing "nothing"...
I follow you. However there is no UAW job that requires 2 minutes of work for 8 hours pay thus I'm not sure what your point is outside of being very sarcastic???? :confuse:
Like police and fire departments...if there was no crime and no fires, we would still have our PD and FD on duty 24/7, with the hope of paying them to do "nothing"...
They are then forced to stop people for speeding and well yeah FD does nothing.
But the gate opener/closer would be the typical UAW type 2 inutes of work for 8 hours pay plus benefits...
Sometime sarcasm is difficult to transmit...
I would love to put you on the assembly line for a 12 hour shift.
But the Law Firm of Marsha and Rocky???...can you detect the sarcasm???...I would sooner join the UAW...
I think you like the idea and want me to go to law school to "strengthen" your law firm. We could run commercials like call "Marsha and Rocky and associates" We will send lemko, fintail, cooterbfd, to law school also to join the firm. :P
The advantage of union labor was posted on here well over a year ago. Union on average are more productive than non-union because of extrememly low turn over ratio.
I had good links to support my case but it's been well over a year ago. I will use a few I found.
Well you guys should of gotten a few more bucks an hour I suppose. However did you really work any harder than the warehouse worker??? Just because you have a certain skill doesn't make you worth double the other person. Remember you choose to be a technician.
The globalization movement is essentially the elimination of such "safeguards". Maybe it's not a conspiracy, just a vast cosmic coincidence. Similar demographic issues of negative consequences that just appear randomly with no collusion. I'll buy that.
However did you really work any harder than the warehouse worker??? Just because you have a certain skill doesn't make you worth double the other person. Remember you choose to be a technician.
Sometimes I wonder if all your brain cells are intact. Why should someone right out of high school delivering packages make as much as a skilled technician with 10 or more years of training and experience? Sometimes I think you would line everyone up and pay everybody from CEO to the janitor the same amount. You are living in an absolute dream world. So Wagoner should not make more than the engineer that should not make anymore than the janitor. You totally ignore the facts of life. Jobs are paid no more than the market will bear. I don't want a neuro surgeon working on me that just came out of High School and thinks he can do the job. Think man, a Warehouseman is not worth anymore than $10-$15 per hour in this economy. Oscar at Delphi that was filing for bankruptcy was over paid by at least double. And that is just one of the many reasons they are bankrupt.
The globalization movement is essentially the elimination of such "safeguards". Maybe it's not a conspiracy, just a vast cosmic coincidence. Similar demographic issues of negative consequences that just appear randomly with no collusion. I'll buy that.
I'm sure there are hundreds or thousands of people conspiring to globalize to feather their caps. And it is all a plan. And since there's been no press coverage of the conspiracy, the press must be involved. Hundreds of thousands more. All keeping quiet. Sounds right to me. They're hiding it from us AND the UAW (to keep it on topic), who are all just pawns.
>what magazines and newspapers she read, kept seeing Russia from her back yard, and her and her husband's relatives all have drug and illegitimate
Maybe we can talk about Michelle's being proud of her country for the _first_ time as she worked a $350,000 year job that jumped from $170K or so when her husband became a senator. Or we can talk about illegitimate births in Michelle's community. And you want to talk about relatives: have you checked on BO's lately. Another of his brothers was in the news about something sex related IIRC. His aunt was living here illegally on our dime.
Do we keep going? Or do we wish to talk Biden's past and Clinton?
Palin was Palinized by the MSM. They give passes to the other party.
Comments
Like police and fire departments...if there was no crime and no fires, we would still have our PD and FD on duty 24/7, with the hope of paying them to do "nothing"...
But the gate opener/closer would be the typical UAW type 2 inutes of work for 8 hours pay plus benefits...
Sometime sarcasm is difficult to transmit...
But the Law Firm of Marsha and Rocky???...can you detect the sarcasm???...I would sooner join the UAW...
It's my experience that if a family-owned business did not want to hear honest, constructive criticism from somebody that means the best for them, then you DON'T want to be working for that firm. They have bigger problems and it will almost certainly bite them in the [non-permissible content removed] soon enough.
It might look bad right now but in the long run it will have been a blessing.
I still think you should broaden your horizons on where you would be willing to relocate.
You say this in reference to China, but we all know that UAW-made iron in the US was particularly crappily assembled in the '70's and 80's (ignoring whether that is true today or not). The UAW, with their jewel-encrusted compensation, is the OPPOSITE of forced/slave labor. It doesn't seem to make anything better.
I keep asking the question and nobody gives me a straight answer - WHAT is the value to the business of the higher UAW salaries and benefits? Why would any company want the UAW if they are more expensive? Where are the UAW strikes for higher quality products rather than more gold in their pockets?
If the higher UAW costs translated to superior products that the company could see, then it might be worth it. But shoddy UAW built cars mean that not only the D3 have been paying through the nose, but that they don't even get good value for that. And guess what? The US consumer has figured it out, which is why the D3 are in trouble and the D2 are on life support.
Of course, you already know the answer to that one. No company actually wants a union, particularly one as militant and as anti-business as the UAW. But for many businesses, it's a necessary evil they have to deal with; just another cost of doing business, at least in some parts of the country.
However, Henderson dismissed speculation that GM (GM, Fortune 500) was planning to cut its Buick and GMC brands and focus only on Chevrolet and Cadillac.
He also denied that the company now prefers to fix its problems with a bankruptcy filing, rather than an out-of-court restructuring, saying the company still prefers to avoid bankruptcy.
But he said he couldn't give odds as to how likely it was that the company will be able to avoid bankruptcy, adding that the decision on whether or not to file will be made in conjunction with the government.
The Treasury Department has loaned the company $13.4 billion so far and is looking at providing it additional assistance -- but only if GM proves it is able to be a viable business for the long-term.
Henderson also said that negotiations with both the United Auto Workers union and the company's bondholders have not yet started in earnest.
He said the company needs to come up with a new business plan before there can be intensive negotiations with those parties. He added the UAW will need to conclude talks with rival Chrysler LLC, which is working under even a tighter deadline than GM to avoid bankruptcy.
Another 20,000 jobs will also be cut in US by 2012.
I don't see how there will be more refinement of the product with fewer workers and fewer different products. To hold current levels will be tough.
VW may have passed Toyota to nab #1 sales spot worldwide. In Germany, 30% of all sales are to VW. One hometown manufacturer grabs 30% of the countries entire market. Talk about Nationalism. In S. Korea you get audited (taxes) if you buy a non-Korean vehicle new.
It has nothing to do with Nationalism. It has to do with the facts. Those are that VW offers the best cars with the BEST mileage on the Planet. The Europeans know it and buy them. If they were offered here we would be buying them instead of the junky eco cars GM imports from Korea. Or the cars Ford brings up from Mexico.
I see no better alternatives offered up by the other side, who are in reality simply the same clowns in different suits.
Look at the parallel re: immigration here and in Europe. Sounds more like a global plan, no matter who the chosen few allow to be elected.
A gigantic race to the bottom.
We're a car forum. Occasionally politics is an appropriate part of that. But there are better places to talk politics than here.
What steps should the UAW take?
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE53G3LU20090417
GM readies plans for bankruptcy it hopes to avoid
>
If GM fails to reach agreements to make deep reductions in some $28 billion of unsecured debt, cut labor costs and rework the funding of a healthcare trust for United Auto Workers union retirees, the automaker could be forced into bankruptcy.
-Rocky
The point is there are about 20 million more workers in the USA than there are jobs. That makes them LESS valuable to someone starting a company or owning a company. It is a simple case of supply and demand. For every UAW worker on the job there are probably 1000 that would take the job for half the wage. More than capable and be tickled to get it. It is UNSKILLED LABOR, pure and simple. Maybe a few that do maintenance have higher skill levels. Well they will be harder to replace, so they should get more. To pay a guy inserting parts on a car half as much as the guy that repairs the machinery is just crazy.
It was like my first Teamster job. They paid the warehousemen a buck less an hour than the trained technicians. If you don't think that caused a row, you are mistaken. The warehouse crew were all part of the inside group at the Teamsters.
When I threatened to transfer into the warehouse, my boss had a fit. He begged and pleaded. I told him the supervisor we had was worthless. Guess what the supervisor was canned. I stayed at my job for 2 more months then quit and took the job in the Arctic. To this day I cannot believe they paid those guys even half what we made. It was totally ridiculous. That was riding on our coat tails. They made at least $10 more per hour than any other ware house job in the state.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
That certainly didn't help, but I believe the company was poorly run too. Lots of money had been spent on some bad acquisitions too I believe. Sounds familiar huh!
Maybe that explains why she didn't know what magazines and newspapers she read, kept seeing Russia from her back yard, and her and her husband's relatives all have drug and illegitimate child problems? :P
-Rocky
-Rocky
For new hires in the private sector. Even the Civil Service pensions are cut way back from what they used to be. Defined benefit is NOT defined Pension. Sure most companies still pay part of your health care or all of it. How many have a pension plan that is Defined like the old timers at GM. You said the new hires were not included.
-Rocky
Dave - we agree completely on this one!
I do think that the current government protections for workers were not there when the unions first gained power. Certainly the unions were a huge and important step in the evolution of labor in the US. The government regulations, OSHA, etc, protect workers in ways the unions first protected workers in the past. We should have great gratitude for the union evolution in this country.
However, their time of usefulness has passed. They are destroying competitiveness and even helping send jobs overseas, which is not what any of us want.
-Rocky
A gigantic race to the bottom.
Can't agree at all with some big conspiracy theories for the existence of global elitists.
Humans are humans. There are greedy ones and there need to be safeguards. The rules of the system allowed the greedy ones to start feathering their caps. It's not a conspiracy, it's just opportunism. The enemy is *US*.
The race to the bottom is first and foremost caused by too many people on the planet. And you could easily argue that the United States, with its hugely disproportionate consumption of resources, is hurting most of the rest of the people. So perhaps all of us are the elitists.
Given that rationale, we should all move back to grass huts as we are overconsuming to hurt the rest of the population. It's part of our "plan". And so is the UAW!
Well let's not rush things. It's only been since December that we've known about this and we wouldn't want to be hasty! (dripping sarcasm)
Good luck with that! I mean, really. It would take 5-10 years even if it were possible.
I follow you. However there is no UAW job that requires 2 minutes of work for 8 hours pay thus I'm not sure what your point is outside of being very sarcastic???? :confuse:
Like police and fire departments...if there was no crime and no fires, we would still have our PD and FD on duty 24/7, with the hope of paying them to do "nothing"...
They are then forced to stop people for speeding and well yeah FD does nothing.
But the gate opener/closer would be the typical UAW type 2 inutes of work for 8 hours pay plus benefits...
Sometime sarcasm is difficult to transmit...
I would love to put you on the assembly line for a 12 hour shift.
But the Law Firm of Marsha and Rocky???...can you detect the sarcasm???...I would sooner join the UAW...
I think you like the idea and want me to go to law school to "strengthen" your law firm. We could run commercials like call "Marsha and Rocky and associates" We will send lemko, fintail, cooterbfd, to law school also to join the firm. :P
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
ROTFLMAO!
Then we should also add gagrice, iluvmysephia, lokki, etc.!
I had good links to support my case but it's been well over a year ago. I will use a few I found.
http://accounting.smartpros.com/x43674.xml
http://www.uaw.org/atissue/prn_article.cfm?AtId=189
http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/09/0209/feature03.php
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. I will respond later to more posts.
Sometimes I wonder if all your brain cells are intact. Why should someone right out of high school delivering packages make as much as a skilled technician with 10 or more years of training and experience? Sometimes I think you would line everyone up and pay everybody from CEO to the janitor the same amount. You are living in an absolute dream world. So Wagoner should not make more than the engineer that should not make anymore than the janitor. You totally ignore the facts of life. Jobs are paid no more than the market will bear. I don't want a neuro surgeon working on me that just came out of High School and thinks he can do the job. Think man, a Warehouseman is not worth anymore than $10-$15 per hour in this economy. Oscar at Delphi that was filing for bankruptcy was over paid by at least double. And that is just one of the many reasons they are bankrupt.
I can believe the low turnover. Any group of people who are paid well above the market aren't going to leave their jobs.
The costs still don't make up for the higher productivity, however. If they did then GM would be MORE profitable than its competitors.
You'd never make it to Tuesday!
I'm sure there are hundreds or thousands of people conspiring to globalize to feather their caps. And it is all a plan. And since there's been no press coverage of the conspiracy, the press must be involved. Hundreds of thousands more. All keeping quiet. Sounds right to me. They're hiding it from us AND the UAW (to keep it on topic), who are all just pawns.
Maybe we can talk about Michelle's being proud of her country for the _first_ time as she worked a $350,000 year job that jumped from $170K or so when her husband became a senator. Or we can talk about illegitimate births in Michelle's community. And you want to talk about relatives: have you checked on BO's lately. Another of his brothers was in the news about something sex related IIRC. His aunt was living here illegally on our dime.
Do we keep going? Or do we wish to talk Biden's past and Clinton?
Palin was Palinized by the MSM. They give passes to the other party.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,