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"Equal Quality Specs for Different Customers"
I have a little background here that I think will be enlightening - Specs mean nothing without QA inspections.
Here's the way it works. Let's say you are manufacturing a part that has specs that (for reason x) are difficult to meet consistently. Your internal QA inspectors fail about 50% of your parts. Do you throw them away? No.
You have your QA inspectors grade your production runs as A quality, B, quality, and so forth. Your first shipments are your A quality parts. The customer's QA inspectors will check and pass them.
Then you start to slip in some B quality parts. If they're not caught, you start to slip in C quality, and so forth, meanwhile stockpiling A quality parts. This keeps on until you are caught.
You then start shipping exclusively from your A quality stockpile until the heat is off. The process repeats itself ad infinitium.
In this scenario, the customer with the best and most relentless QA inspector system wins. Customers who don't check lose..... big time.
Of course, some customers will allow wider tolerance specs from the beginning - One company will specify that they will only accept A tolerance parts .. they still have to catch you cheating, but they at least they've set the standard.
Others will accept B tolerance parts from the beginning, in exchange for a better price.
I once had a friend explain the practical implications of this to me in terms of Stereo Equipment. (These are dated names but they'll do for our purposes here): Both Yamaha and Sansui buy internal identical components from the same suppliers. Let's assume that the circuit design happens to be identical. However Yamaha has tighter tolerances and does more QA inspections. This makes their product more expensive than the identical Sansui unit.
Since the designs are identical, it's quite possible to get a Sansui that is just as good (and sounds just as good) as the Yamaha. However, the odds of getting a good Yamaha are much higher than the odds of getting a good Sansui, and the more components in the circuit, the lower the odds.
Got it? I'll allow you to draw your own parallels in the car business.
The prospect of a big ownership stake for the U.A.W. in G.M. has angered holders of billions of dollars in bonds, who stand to get only a fraction of the restructured company. As for Chrysler, the banks, hedge funds and others that lent it money have been promised only cash, not stock.
“We believe the offer to be a blatant disregard of fairness for the bondholders who have funded this company and amounts to using taxpayer money to show political favoritism of one creditor over another,” a group of G.M. bondholders said in a statement this week.
The U.A.W. members at both automakers stand to lose some of their pay and benefits, but the cuts are not as deep as those faced by airline and steel workers when their companies went bankrupt. Under proposed deals devised by the Treasury Department, U.A.W. pensions and retiree health care benefits would largely be protected.
The U.A.W. has derived its leverage in part from the support of a Democratic president and Congress. But it also results from a long-term strategy to build support in Washington that stretches back more than 60 years.
Same old corrupt politics, we were told would end with this administration. Any Patriot would avoid buying a vehicle from either company. Buy Ford the only honest domestic auto maker. If Chrysler goes C11, wouldn't that make the 55% in stock worthless?
It is a good thing but I can speak first hand that Honyota aren't taking care of there customers like they did in the 1990's. My problem was the hiding of recalls Gary.
Again the UAW puts together the parts sent to them. I think to be competitive the D3 cut corners on content to make up for the higher labor & legacy costs.
That isn't true anymore. Most of the parts now are coming from non-union suppliers or overseas pal.
Don't forget that GM is at least down $20B on the pension plan they will have to make up the end of this year. If they sell 2 million vehicles that is $10,000 added to the cost of each vehicle. Plus $3500 for legacy health care for the retirees tagged onto each vehicle. That is $13,500 per vehicle sold off the top. Promises made to the UAW that they will not be able to meet.
We will see how this issues is addressed. It is looking like Barry is going to try his hand and get national healthcare passed.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Kudos to Honda Toyota ff they did that. The end result is that the customer got a car that did not break down in the middle of the road, nor rattle like a tin can, or annoy them with minor breakdowns like a stuck window in a thunderstorm :shades:
BTW, I replaced my Hondas with a Ford and a Buick because I believe in the UAW...
People who want the best workers in the nation.
Same old corrupt politics, we were told would end with this administration. Any Patriot would avoid buying a vehicle from either company. Buy Ford the only honest domestic auto maker. If Chrysler goes C11, wouldn't that make the 55% in stock worthless?
This is any different than the corrupt oil companies are doing for republicans??? Hell they get tax payer money each year!!! Billions!!! I guess since they were ultimately responsible for your paycheck they get a free pass. Anyone have any data on how many billions big oil has sucked out of the tax payer over the last 20 or 30 years that they didn't have to pay back and are still getting despite record profits. :confuse:
I say tell the bondholders to quit crying. This is how capitalism works. You are screwed!!! Want better then vote for the socialist party.
-Rocky
Do UAW members do any "official" QA or other incoming inspections at GM, Chrysler, or is that handled by management type personnel? To what extent does 2,200 page UAW "Contract" with GM, Chrysler have provisions in there to have UAW members do incoming parts inspections of any kind?
Barry ran on change. He promised no more catering to lobbyist and supporters. Well what you are seeing handed to the UAW is pure cronyism. No different than any time in the past. Same as the corporate welfare given to the Corn Ethanol producers since 2005. Only a LOT BIGGER handout to the UAW. Two of the three domestic auto makers given to the UAW with our tax dollars there to make sure they succeed. Even if it cost the tax payers $50,000 to build a car worth $20,000. Where is that tea bag?
Anyone have any data on how many billions big oil has sucked out of the tax payer over the last 20 or 30 years that they didn't have to pay back and are still getting despite record profits.
I think you will find if you are at all interested that the net gain to the Feds from companies like Exxon far exceed $20-$30 billion per year. I believe Exxon paid in the neighborhood of $80 Billion last year after all incentives were taken out. Those billions to the oil companies are write-offs. Most of the time for drilling dry holes and exploration for new oil reserves.
I think Obama already spent 20 billion of our tax $$$s which he said would save Detroit, what a crock!!!!!! This is a federal Govt occupation of our private sector..
60% of the voting public really has no clue..Didn,t Reagan try to eliminate the Dept of Education????? Somebody told me that every student in Detroit graduating from high school in the future would receive $2500. WOW!!! Maybe they will finally be taught to read..I don't believe reading is a requirement to join the UAW..
Future board meetings of GM and Chrysler will undoubtly be held at the local pub...
The real outcome is that it will take twice as many UAW members to now produce a car,compared to the old days,,featherbedding will become the new rule and it will never be questioned by their BANK---our Treasury dept..
-Rocky
Gagrice: I love your tea comment from your previous post. Where was all this tea when Dubya was starting wars and running up the deficit with tax breaks for the wealthy???
-Rocky
-Rocky
Let's do a simple analysis that (almost) anyone can understand:
You don't see Honda or Toyota dealerships going out of business, now do you...
The ratio was like 5 to 1 someone said???
-Rocky
-Rocky
Let's see, the UAW has quite a list of bankrupt or soon to be bankrupt companies they represent. Yep, that is a recipe for success.
Gagrice: I love your tea comment from your previous post. Where was all this tea when Dubya was starting wars and running up the deficit with tax breaks for the wealthy???
Don't forget the near $400 billion 10 year cost of medicare part D but that will be chump change when we get "free" national health care. LOL. I guess anymore if it's not a trillion it doesn't really count.
Trust me the UAW world succeed as they would also rewrite our trade laws.
Don't forget the near $400 billion 10 year cost of medicare part D but that will be chump change when we get "free" national health care. LOL. I guess anymore if it's not a trillion it doesn't really count.
It will be free compared to the premiums people are now paying for any sort of coverage.
-Rocky
The ratio was like 5 to 1 someone said???
-Rocky
I did say "almost" anyone...
"Someone said..."? I thought you didn't like "half truths"?
-Rocky
-Rocky
1. Things "I believe"
2. Things "I know"
You seem to want to "believe" in GM and the UAW. It must be great not to be limited in your thinking by the facts of the world around you.
However we all "know" the number of D3 dealerships is going down, and the number of Honda and Toyota dealerships continues to go up. The conclusion regarding Design, Build Quality and Customer Service is obvious to the most casual observer. Sorry for upsetting your own private Idaho. Sorry again, Pretenders reference - before your time. But you would think a person with a "Master's Degree" could tell the difference between "believe" and "know".
rocky: just how much IS a janitor paid, and how much do they COST the automaker, with health insurance, work comp, unemployment, social security matching, and other benefits...I am going to bet that my figure of $35/hour will be off by half, and they probably cost GM about $70/hour...what are the correct figures, rocky???
I want to know so I can rail against the UAW with correct figures for the lowest of the unskilled laborers, the floorsweeper...
So it IS halfway true then? :P
Two points: one the owner of the vehicle did not know anything was repaired on their car under the secret repair or whatever you wish to call it. Two the image of the cars as perfection personified was presented to the public while in reality they were like all cars and put their wheels on one lug nut at a time.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you are saying that the fact that the TSB may be issued means that the car was not perfect to start with, I can see your point...but if add'l maintenance or repair is done while I am there for rountine maintenance, I do not find flaw with that...
At least it means they care enough to do it...does that attitude pervade Big 3 car dealers???
With Chrysler into Ch 11, do we still have the Big 3 or is it the Medium 2???...
With the UAW owning the companies, if ever the foxes were guarding the henhouse, this is it...whatever quality control they had that allowed them to build a great Malibu or CTS will be gone about 20 minutes after UAW gets control...now, the concept of quality will be as foreign as Mandarin Chinese...
Who will discipline the drunks on Monday, and the saboteurs on Friday???...it already takes 2 years of grievance appeals to remove a rotten UAW worker, now that they will own the company, it will be like this:
UAW Boss: Well, John, this is the 18th Monday in a row that you have shown up blinding drunk...what so you say for yourself???
UAW John: Boss, my wofe made me mow the lawn for the second time this year, and the stress was too much, so I simply come to work drunk...will that affect our quality control goals???
Boss: Don't worry, John...we own the company...we can stretch out the appeals now for 7 years, instead of the previous 2...do you think just ONE Monday in the next 6 months you could show up without staggering in or falling asleep at the lunch counter???...then we can tell Obama that we have disciplined the bad workers and as long as he gets our union vote he will be happy...
John: So, the fact that no one buys our cars anymore means I can still keep my job???
Boss: Yes, John, you are UAW, remember???...You cost us $250/hour, but you are worth every penny because you voted for Obama...your job is secure forever, even tho we have not sold a Chevrolet in 3 years...but don't worry, I hear Geroge Soros wants a new car, and we think he is looking at a Malibu...
End
I see the substantial UAW ownership as a good thing. If the UAW owns much of say, Chrysler, then they have to balance their greedy desires for money and taking it easy with the success of the company. In essence, the ones who have been sucking off the golden goose now are responsible for taking care of the goose! Let's see how much they want to hasten the goose's death now that they are the ones responsible. It's about time that the UAW gets their skin in the game of financial success (or failure) of the US auto companies.
I agree!
However, possibly Floor Sweeper may not be the considered the lowest of the unskilled laborers. He has to make decisions like any line worker. Maybe more. Therefore, there may be no distinction in pay between janitor and any other other worker on the floor..
According to the UAW supporters, "ALL UAW Employees" are entitled to live the good life..
Kip
It will be interesting to see if UAW leaders are as good at caring for the goose as they have been at strangling it.
It is truly going to be an awakening for a lot of folks. Good news is that it can be done, if the rank and file is sincere about success.
A few years ago Harley Davidson was bought by AMC and nearly ruined. Then the "Employees" purchased it back from AMC. They turned it around and now it is a viable company again. Probably had to be some serious soul searching by all concerned about wages and such during the transitions.
Kip
No, it just seems that way sometimes.
>"They made reliable cars because when you went in for a oil change they were secretly being fixed to give that perception."
That seems like a good thing to me. Fix potential problems before they become a real problem.
But what about the folks that change their own oil or have it done at Jiffy Lube?
Overall, their imports still seem to be reliable, and they still sell well!
Kip.
Here's a website that shows pay scale information for General Motors workers in Detroit. It would appear that the average assembly line worker doesn't make $30 an hour in take-home pay - it's only $28.33 or $58,926 annually - not including any benefits or overtime.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=General_Motors_Corp/Hourly_Rate
A mechanical engineer for GM, however, makes $71,051 annually or $34.16 per hour.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=General_Motors_Corp/Salary
This article NY Times says that the average benefit cost per employee is $15.00 per hour.
It also explains how the famous $70 per hour figure is calculated - Overtime and Vacation Leave pay are added to the base hourly rate and the benefit costs, bringing the Average PER HOUR COST TO GENERAL MOTORS up to $55.00. An additional $15.00 is then tacked on for retiree costs, bringing the total up to $70 per hour.
Thus we have the explanation between what Rocky Lee sees - a still pretty damn good $60 K a year and General Motors per employee cost of $145K per year.
Finally, the article also points out what Rocky Lee has been saying is true... even if you bring the per employee costs in line with the transplants, the savings to GM would only be $800 per car. Let me just quote the rest:
That’s because labor costs, for all the attention they have been receiving, make up only about 10 percent of the cost of making a vehicle. An extra $800 per vehicle would certainly help Detroit, but the Big Three already often sell their cars for about $2,500 less than equivalent cars from Japanese companies, analysts at the International Motor Vehicle Program say. Even so, many Americans no longer want to own the cars being made by General Motors, Ford and Chrysler.
In short, General Motors and Chrysler are dead. The UAW certainly helped to kill them and will suffer for that, but even if the UAW vanished tomorrow as if it had never been.... not enough people want GM or Chrysler cars to save them - even in a good market.
Very sad.
That is not true. Yesterday, our President said that Chrysler filing for bankruptcy should not be considered a sign of failure.
Indeed he did. But what he meant to say was it's a success for him paying back the UAW for their campaign support and a failure for the country because the two companies are ending in bankruptcy. He's thinking about BO's next 2012 campaign which is already in the planning.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would agree with you if this was a normal employee takeover. It is NOT. It is the taxpayers subsidizing the UAW takeover of the company. That means whatever it costs to make a Dodge Ram is passed onto the taxpayer not the consumer.
This bankruptcy should have happened 6 months ago. The odds of this being a quick bankruptcy proceeding is low, with so many parties involved, does anyone believe this will be quick? What a mess.
PMO...the engineers design the basic method of the building of the car, but it is the people on the line who determine if things are properly aligned, tightened, etc...so, windows can fall out of tracks and doors may not align by simple ignorance, negligence, or sabotage by the line worker...so, I blame mgmt for ugly cars (Roadmaster) but I blame UAW for rattles, shakes and things that simply do not work that well due to rotten assembly...
lokki: "It would appear that the average assembly line worker doesn't make $30 an hour in take-home pay - it's only $28.33 or $58,926 annually - not including any benefits or overtime."...ONLY $28.33???...OK, I was off by $1.67...and like you said, that did not include benefits...so, when I refer to floorsweepers making over $25/hour, I am correct, but if I say $30 I am technically wrong, altho not by much...
Forgive me, but justifying sweeping a floor for $28.33/hour PLUS BENEFITS, I cannot fathom how any UAW supporter can, with a straight face, tell me how "skilled" they are...plus, if they were that skilled, millions of Americans would not have deserted the Big 3 for imports...
So, what the UAW folks SAY really is a figment in their own minds, because the REAL reviewers, not edmunds or CR, but the people who buy the cars out there, have said with their feet and their money that UAW-made cars are of insufficient quality for them to purchase... THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE...
Argue wth me all you want...the market has decided, and the UAW must become history...they may get a small reprieve when they have partial ownership of the company, but when the product comes out no different than the last 20 years, then it will be the UAW who manages themselves into oblivion instead of just assembling themselves into oblivion...
As an outsider, this will be fun to watch...