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And what does being 70 have to do with anything PMC? A lot of us are creeping up on you fast (or are right there with you). No excuses now.... :shades:
Since I love Mitsubishi's products, the whole ballgame once again involves the Seattle Sonic's, and becomes much more real to me, indeed. I can make more personal application of it.
And what, I do wonder, if the home Mitsubishi team back in Japan would slam the heavy gavel of fate down in their(UAW's) collective faces? Because Mitsubishi can not stand deprived profits at all now, really, and what automaker could? I have read that Mitsubishi Motors exists as a subordinate Company to the Mitsubishi Company, of Japan. Sounds simple, but, what they say happens is that if Mitsubishi Motors doesn't turn a profit, they go to Big Daddy Mitsubishi for handouts to keep them going, and Big Daddy, which is a huge Japanese shipping Company, simply writes off the losses. And they keep going on like that. However, I don't think that Big Daddy means that there's always a blank check available. And they're watching for eventual profits to appear, of course they are.
Could this really be rockylee's beloved UAW's best time to exist, when their threat of striking actually could halt up what little profits are out there being wrung free from American's tight fists, thereby making their Union-held belief system all that more tightly woven in their minds? As an advantage to them? I think so, friends. A strike now seems crazy, but, the UAW is not your ordinary housecat. This housecat looks at the Chow Chow and attacks them, doesn't run away.
I don't know about you, but I'm hearing that Alfred Hitchcock scary reet-reet-reet sound in my head as I type this out. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The union (thank God worked with GM and the 30 and out was won ),later came the surviver part and it costs me 135 per month out of my pension to give my wife the two thirds of my pension if I die.
For your wife's sake. When we pass(heaven forbid the thought) we must think about what remains of the estate for our spouses.
And, steve, to keep things on topic, the same goes for the spouses of the ordinary UAW workers, too.
Far better for me to strike you Mitsubishi and GM and Ford and Chrysler.
BTW, PMO, what breed is your dog?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Let's pop out a for-instance. What legally could GM have done in 1998 when the UAW struck them, I mean as far as standing against the tide of the strike? And not backing down, caving in and folding. And paying the turkeys the over-inflated amounts they are now getting, and then some?
Could they insist on just giving the UAW their best offer, or bust? Or, could they just slam the heavy hammer of intelligence down and break the UAW at that point? Decide that the strong suck of the UAW has busted their ability to effectively sell GM rigs at a profit and that enough is enough? Think about it. A publicly-owned Company has to turn a profit. You'd think shareholders would be choking on their raspberry jelly donuts at these long, overly drawn out mindless strikes by large Unions."
I know just enough about labor law to get into trouble, but I will give it a thought...Nancy Grace is from Atlanta, but I do not know her...
It is my belief that the stockholders of GM would have taken a strike but that the CEO had his hand-picked Board of Directors and everyone wanted to be sure they got their money, so they capitulated to the UAW...
The company employs workers...workers have the right to unionize...union can strike...workers can strike or cross the picket line...compnay has the right to hold out just like any negotiation, and so does the union...it is sometimes a simple game of chicken...the union members must live on strike pay (in the 80s it was $65 per week) so if the company can hold out long enough, they can starve the union and win (that would be MY tactic at first)...but the compnay needs cash flow to pay its bills, which are still mounting up during the strike...so the union wants to see if pressure from the creditors will make the company give in to their wage demands...so, who can hold out the longest and win???
I posted this once before, Roger Smith presided as CEO from 1981-1990, and GM lost money for the first time since 1925 in the recession of, I think, 82-83...he had the union by the short ones and could have broken the union when they struck in 83 or 84, whenever the contract was up for renewal...I was hoping for him to be anointed CEO of the Century, if only he would wait about 6 months and literally break the back of the UAW, they would have come crying back to work at minimum wage if he had held out...BUT HE DIDN'T...he capitulated in 6 weeks, IIRC, and the UAW won...if he had just told the creditors that if they can hold on a little longer, he could change the course of history and break the back of the union as they starved to death...ah, so mucyh for history...
So, iluv, the company does not have to give in...I believe that Caterpillar held out and got much of what they wanted, altho the fact that the UAW still exists means that they didn't get all of what they wanted...while collusion is illegal, if all the UAW companies simply did not give in and took the strike for the long haul, they could kill the union in about 6 months and bring happiness, peace and prosperity, and TRANQUILLITY back to this nation, and the sun would shine again...taking the strike would be like going cold turkey from drug addicition, hell in the short term but better overall in the long run...
So, companies can take a strike, they can also clsoe shop and move, altho that takes more time...little by little, GM moved plants overseas that could have been built here, but for the UAW...so, one might say that altho Roger Smith failed to kill it, we, the market, have shrunk GM so much that there is little left to the UAW, and, Lord willing, a Chapter 11 will allow them to break the contacts and throw them out, with the approval of a judge...or, they will continue on as they are, and loss of sales will force the UAW-owners to tell their own members that things must change or GM re-files for Chapter 7...
Either way, the future of this nation appears to be on the bright side, as the UAW (hopefully) joins the dustbin of history as another dinosaur from the past...
As the UAW rots in Purgatory for ruining the American auto trade, do you think in a million years they will turn into crude oil, just like the other dinosaurs from the past???...with enough UAW members, could we end up with another 100 years worth of crude oil for our Hondas and Toyotas???
Lots of states want JOBS. States compete with each other to get those jobs. With something big like an auto assembly plant, states offer tax incentives. Shelby was doing his job as a senator for his state. GM or Ford could have easily decided to build new factories in the south and they would have gotten the same incentives. They were just deciding to build factories in Mexico and other places instead.
Bob, that's cold! Funny, but cold!
I think it would be high sulfur oil, not "sweet crude" :P
If that question isn't clear, perhaps Marsha7 can clear it up for you.
Interesting. The UAW always played one auto manufacturer against the other when it came contract negotiation time. Pick one of the D3 to negotiate with, and strike against them if necessary. GM and Smith were probably more worried about losing market share to one of the other auto makers. And since they figured they could always pass the costs on to the car buyer, and that the other 2 D3 makers would have the same contact eventually, it was more expedient to capitulate than fight.
What if the D3 had made a united front against the UAW? That is, no one-company negotiation, but negotiate with all 3 at the same time. Another option would have been a lock out by the two companies that were not being negotiated with, should the UAW chose to strike the one it was dealing with. Not sure if this would have been allowed under federal laws or not, but I wonder what the outcome would have been had they tried.
While I do not have actual numbers, I assume that a state that gets an auto plant will easily "make back" any incentives offered to the automaker, esp if it is japanese...grant 100 million in incentives, how much payroll is now earned and spent in that 50 mile radius, plus home building, new stores, maybe malls (sales taxes), service centers, and then add in all the suppliers that come in to serve the auto plant...it is the upside of the ripple effect in Michigan...up there, GM closes a plant and everything around it will shrivel and die in a year or less...
Down south, as the auto plants grow (generally) the ripple effect is reversed...the $100 million incentive to an import automaker may grow to a billion in the economic effect, and it continues year after year...often the state will absorb property taxes for 10 years, and absorb the cost of upgrading highways and railroad tracks, maybe even the airport...but, in 10 years, the plant pays ppty taxes, and the industrial growth has paid itself back a thousandfold...
This theory will work even better if the autoplant is not UAW...then, the people stay normal and the evolution of life progresses forward, not backward...
tlong: I believe it is called "sour" crude, like Venezuelan crude...longer to refine, and, like the UAW, you never get rid of that sour taste...
Maybe you are right, Smith might have been afraid of losing share to the other two...but, also, both Ford and Chrysler were "minutes" away from bankruptcy, so I really wonder if he feared losing market share...and, if he broke the union, we still would have been better off...
Could all 3 stand firm against the union???...it may be one of those "where do you draw the line" questions...if they collude together, it would be illegal...but if all 3 independently refused to bargain, it would be interesting to see the result...
PMO would perhaps tell you that Tim Hortons has better coffee than either one, but he's been good about sticking to the topic. Most everyone has stuck to the UAW this weekend - maybe we can bring you around too? :shades:
And don't ask me why some Emotorcons are returning red X's. The wink and confusion ones appear to be on strike.
In UAW news, communities around the US and Canada are worried about the effect of Chrysler's bankruptcy (and GM's potential one) on the benefits paid to the retirees.
"GM and Chrysler together make pension payments to more than 600,000 retired autoworkers. In Chapter 11 bankruptcy, a majority of companies keep their pension plans in place as they reorganize, said Laura Davis Jones, managing partner of the Wilmington office of bankruptcy law firm Pachulski Stang Ziehl & Jones.
But companies can also ask a judge to eliminate their pension plans, or negotiate with worker representatives to modify the benefits.
"You have to get to some resolution that's viable for the company," Jones said.
A summary released last week by the U.S. Treasury said Chrysler's pension plans will be preserved and strengthened by a $600 million infusion from the automaker's former German partner, Daimler.
Nevertheless, Chrysler and GM retirees are nervous. Pension plans are backed by the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which estimates that the two automakers' plans are underfunded by a total of $29 billion."
DelawareOnline
There is Medicare available, Social Security, whatever pensions they've earned in their lifetimes, etc. And personal savings, of course. And then one has to pay extra to supplement their Medicare health coverage. OK fine, but why promise these gold-plated retiree accounts like this?
Would tying these benefits to company profits be fair? In the case of GM, though, that would mean very small retiree healthcare benefits, because when did GM last make a profit?
Oh well, back to the draw-ring board.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
They could have done exactly what the grocery chains did when the retail clerks went on strike at one chain, the other 2 chains locked out the union workers. When the UAW went on strike against GM, the other two should have locked out all the UAW workers that very moment. Then immediately start hiring non union workers to take their places. When the Union strikes the contract is not in affect. The workers at that point are not upholding their part of the bargaining agreement. When you have weaklings like Wagoner running GM they bend over and let the UAW have their way. When the grocery chains finally settled the clerks got less and the starting pay was dropped to minimum wage. Those that crossed and or came to work were given higher pay and better positions. Many left the Union and went into other lines of work. The Retail Clerks will never get back to where they were before the strike. They ended up with a two tier wage agreement that the UCFW fought against and lost.
Just look closely at the wages earned among the highest-paid store clerks, about $18 an hour for a 37.5-hour week, plus a few hours of overtime.
That's less than $40,000 a year for veterans with 10, 20, 30 years in the business.
Retail store workers have become point men and women in the larger battle being fought in this country, and illustrate the tensions building between employer and employee in today's rapidly devolving U.S. economy.
While I deeply sympathize with union workers, I also see the downside of organized labor and its leaders, who can be inflexible, given the emphasis on seniority and fossilized work rules rather than ability, initiative and skill.
The U.S. automobile industry has become a classic case study of a sector saddled with enormous health, pension and wage concessions made over the decades to keep peace in the rank and file.
So much so that Germany's DaimlerChrysler wants to sell off majority interest in Chrysler, in large part because it's saddled with overhead that makes it difficult to turn a profit.
So the choice becomes lower pay and benefits or go out of business. A very simple concept that jokers like Wagoner could not get a grasp of. Now the tax payers for the next 50 years will be subsidizing a failed business.
I think the plant must get more productive as you get older. In 1997 there were not 100 million cars sold world wide. Maybe Oshawa built 100,000 cars. That would have been a lot for a top rated plant at the time. Now the new Toyota Tundra factory in TX is capable of 250,000 trucks per year. Not sure if any modern plant can top that.
I am glad you mentioned the 48% taxes. That is a lot more than a UAW worker would pay here in the USA even with their $100k plus yearly pay. For that you get mediocre health care and a very small military. What else does that buy you in Canada. I know my cousins immigrated to the USA to get away from the horrible taxes and poor services rendered. My cousin was jumping for joy when he became a citizen. He is even more conservative than I am. Your lack of Freedom of Speech would be enough to keep me out, even though I really like Victoria BC. and the Smart diesel sold in Canada. Can you buy a small diesel PU truck up there? Probably not Union made.
1 - performance is poorer than in a merit-based system and quality of work suffers;
2 - the primary educational system is unionized and the quality of our public education is declining rapidly:
"Firing Tenured Teachers Can Be a Costly and Tortuous Task"
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers3-2009may03,0,679507.story
Some key quotes:
“You’re not going to fire someone who’s not doing their job. And if you have someone who’s done something really egregious, there’s only a 50-50 chance that you can fire them.”
"When coaching and other improvement efforts don't work, she said, "You're in the position of having to look at 125 kids and just say, 'I'm sorry,' because the process of removal is really difficult. . . . You're looking at these kids and knowing they are going to high school and they're not ready. It is absolutely devastating."
Kathleen Collins, associate general counsel for L.A. Unified, explained it this way: "Kids don't have a union."
Strapped districts are forced to keep tenured staffers they deem unworthy even as they must consider layoffs for less-experienced teachers, without regard to their talents.
This is a good analogy for the UAW and US car makers. But in this case it is the *consumers* who are the "students" and we have voted with our pocketbooks *away* from the US makes. Instead of lamenting the loss of UAW jobs, we should be worrying about how poorly our children are being educated and what that will mean to the future competitiveness of this country.
Before you start teaching geography you need to brush up a bit. Russia is about twice the size of Canada. Canada is only slightly bigger than the USA. With most of Canada unusable. Being proud of your country is a good thing as is being proud of your Union. I wonder how proud most UAW workers are now with two of the Domestics broke.
And another thing. You keep saying how the UAW and CAW made it good for everyone else. I beg to differ. It only ran up the cost for most Americans that do not make the big bucks. When the unskilled worker on the line was given $28 per hour it ran up the cost of housing for the guy working in the furniture factory. He wanted a home to and when he pressured the company they let him know they could not make furniture paying the outrageous wages the automakers were paying.
I repeat. Just be thankful you were one of the lucky ones that got the fat cat Union wages and big pension. Those following you will not have that luxury. My kids will not and most of our grandchildren will be strapped with the huge debt being run up to cover all the corruption in the country. That includes GM and the UAW. None of them deserve to survive the mess they have made.
My ex-wife taught in the Anchorage school district. She taught public school in MN, CA and NM. She finally got fed up with a system that is totally inept at culling lackluster teachers. She took a 50% cut in pay to teach in a private Christian school where the parents were totally involved. In defense of public school teachers, what they put up with today is horrible. My sister in law teaches kindergarten. She has been kicked, bit, spit on, hit and cussed out. The UNION is totally worthless in those situations. The Principle does not want to lose students so nothing is done.
I can see both sides. At some point you just don't care about the little brats. I would probably be arrested for beating them. I did not tolerate disobedience with my children or any children in my home. Unions protect mediocrity in all areas they are involved in.
At least I can take comfort in knowing that all my predictions came true. Pontiac goes buh-bye, finally, and Chrysler is on the way 6ft under. Those who kept saying my predictions were impossible: "I told you so" :P :P
I wonder what UAW will say about this...
Oh however I admit that I made a mistake in predicting that failure of GM won't result in 10% unemployement, seems like a very possible prospect now. Well, it matters not, follow the money, guys, follow the money not the company.
I do not know what the payback period is, or even if there is one, when a locality agrees to forgo taxes, adds massive financial incentives such as free land, builds new roads or power plants, etc, just to land a new industry. I read a little about the BMW move to Spartanburg SC, and I came away with the feeling that, except for the immediate area, the net financial outcome was a negative for the state. Same could be said for incentives/stadiums/practice facilities built for pro teams (topic for another forum). I would not trust anything put out by the state as their numbers are biased, I'm sure.
Absolutely! That would have been the more straightforward way to play it. Something like "well, ya know, we can't predict what the future will look like, or what our health care expenses will be 20 years down the road. Our intent is to provide those benefits so long as it makes good business sense. But, should that turn out not to be the case, we reserve the right to terminate such benefits at any time".
The big problem, as we all know, is with the unfunded promise of health care benefits. Pension liabilities can be estimated, especially with a large population as the retired UAW base, pretty accurately. Across 100,000 people, average life span is X, average benefit is Y, so our liability is X*Y*100,000. Fairly straightforward.
But health care costs are increasing at a rate that no one seems able to predict, especially far out into the future. Procedures and expenses that will be available 10 or 20 years from now are almost impossible to predict, and plan for cost-wise.
So many cities get screwed over by pro sports and keep coming back. San Diego has been shafted so many times by the Chargers and the Padres, I have lost count. Those incentives are very similar to the ones that the D3 made to the UAW retirees. It is all predicated on an unknown future. If the team does well the city may get back some of the money spent. If GM sells more cars they can afford health care for the retirees. Usually the opposite is the case in both examples.
The difference I see is giving tax breaks, property etc for new industry provides a definite benefit in jobs for that area that are somewhat permanent. Good jobs in an auto factory, not part time peanut vendors.
This business of wooing companies to build in your city is as old as our country. Philadelphia was one of the first big losers. They lost the seat of government to the South when the Capitol was moved to its current location. It was the wealthy using influence to get control. I am sure Michigan has given more incentives over the years than Alabama that many here like to rail against. I don't know how anyone in their right mind would bad mouth a Senator for looking out for his own state. It is all sour grapes by the UAW, just as I am sure it was when Philadelphia lost control to Virginia in the early 1800s.
Same here!
Kip
I think you got the wrong country. Our minimum wage is at least $6.55 per hour going to $7.25 in July 2009. There are places in the USA with minimum wage as high as $9.92 per hour. Low wages for entry level jobs, such as auto manufacturing should be kept low. It gives the workers incentive to better themselves. They need to get educated either in College or a good trade. Slapping fenders on a car all day for your working career is crazy. And if what Rocky says is true, it will make you old before your time. There is nothing in the US Constitution that guarantees a high flying life style for everyone.
You're way off. Canada's area is 3,854,085 square miles, while U.S. is 3,783,135 square miles. (The U.S. number excludes the area of Hawaii, which is not "on this continent".)
Thus, Canada is less than 2% larger than the U.S.
That is just not true.
Canada Area Total 9,984,670 km2 (2nd) 3,854,085 sq mi
Water (%) 8.92
USA Total area 9,826,630 km2 3,794,066 sq mi
Water (%) 6.76
If not for the water you would be smaller than the USA. Sorry Charlie. It is that fuzzy math that has gotten the Domestic auto industry in trouble. I guess you feel bad that I do not include the CAW in my tirades against the Auto workers. I don't consider the CAW quite as bad as the UAW. Though I consider the Canadian government worse than the US government, and I am not a big fan of ours. Don't try to push your socialist system onto US. Universal Health care is a disaster.