Those healthcare benefits were UAW negotiated and therefore can be reopened to seek compensation in other manners. To think that they are an add on and not just a part of a total compensation package is wishful thinking. You have to be an employee to get the healthcare package. If it doesn't cost the employer any more for the total compensation package, why would the employer have any objection?
We have to consider the savings that are out there. We certainly can't go on spending an ever increasing amount of GNP for healthcare. This is the poster child of a distorted market and by no means sustainable. The special interest have made this a ever growing cost to do business in America and the business communittee is now all for the overhaul. That is unless its the insurance, drug, managed care, AMA and or others who profit from influence. We can certainly take this off the shoulders of the UAW/working class/corporations as they compete with their international foes.
My main source for my comment was this article in McKinsey quarterly: http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/rp/healthcare/accounting_cost_healthcare.asp . They identify several areas in which the US spends too much, and I didn't want to list them all. The ones that I mentioned were among the highest, but together make up only a small fraction of the estimated $500 billion annual that the US over spends. The excess amount that we spend is divided into the following major categories: Drugs and devices: $73B Physician compensation: $58B Nursing labor: $50B (because we have more nurses, not because they are overpaid) Administration and insurance: $98B Profits by private hospitals: $41B
These numbers were from 2003. Certainly other things would have gotten worse.
"If it doesn't cost the employer any more for the total compensation package, why would the employer have any objection?"
this is so typical of the academic thinking that we have around in the healthcare debate. Once you have ran a real business and put your own capital at risk in hope for a return, you will understand why.
"We have to consider the savings that are out there. We certainly can't go on spending an ever increasing amount of GNP for healthcare. "
agreed. we basically create a market where everyone gets a BMW because the buyer doesn't pay for the car and somebody else does.
what we really need is more Chevys (in terms of offering varying levels of healthcare options) - we need more affordable low quality healthcare options.
"This is the poster child of a distorted market and by no means sustainable. "
absolutely true.
"They identify several areas in which the US spends too much, "
you don't need they to tell you that. Next time you are at your doctors, insist that you don't do all the tests s/he tells you to do and insist on using older and generic drugs and insist to your insurer that you don't take that expensive operation until it is absolutely necessary to save your life.
Start with you and start now!
"The excess amount that we spend is divided into the following major categories: "
I believe they typically teach you in highschool that as one gets wealthier, one values his/her life more and as such one is more willing to spend to sustain that life. so it is no miracle and puzzling that as the wealthiest nation in the world (which I quite frankly think is a hoax), we should spend the most on healthcare.
But that's something only a highschool drop-out will find tough to understand.
Drugs and devices: $73B Physician compensation: $58B Nursing labor: $50B (because we have more nurses, not because they are overpaid) Administration and insurance: $98B Profits by private hospitals: $41B
These numbers were from 2003. Certainly other things would have gotten worse.
Those healthcare benefits were UAW negotiated and therefore can be reopened
Sure they can, well, maybe not now, but they could have There was an opportunity to do that back in May-June when GM and Chrysler went C11.
Now, we see just how much the UAW cares for anyone other than their own members - zippo. That goes for government workers at various levels also. Harry white collar worker is going to have to pay more for his insurance because his neighbor, Joe UAW worker, is exempt.
you don't need they to tell you that. Next time you are at your doctors, insist that you don't do all the tests s/he tells you to do and insist on using older and generic drugs and insist to your insurer that you don't take that expensive operation until it is absolutely necessary to save your life.
Better yet, you folks who use the socialist label, mail back the social security checks. That will show them your true convictions.
Perhaps you want the same free market fools who ran all of the banking into the ground to fix the healthcare market?
The current crisis is a direct result of shipping them jobs overseas. smoke and mirrors and finger pointing isn't going to solve it. The AMA and the UAW are nothing but organizations representing labor. The UAW , just like the American middle class, is but a victim of the greed driven robber barrons. Get over it, deal with it, and try thinking for yourself.
I don't know, Steve. However, the Cadillac tax is UAW as it gets. They even named (coined) it after a UAW made auto. Why couldn't they have called it the Lexus tax?
Now, we see just how much the UAW cares for anyone other than their own members - zippo. That goes for government workers at various levels also. Harry white collar worker is going to have to pay more for his insurance because his neighbor, Joe UAW worker, is exempt.
I agree that the UAW is loyal to their dues paying members. However, this money which was prior used to buy tax exempt benefits, will now or in the near future be taxable income. Hence, the extra taxes could go to offset other burdens.
There are two key reasons why UAW jobs are disappearing:
1 - the product has been poor for so long (not all UAW's fault) 2 - even the US makers are outsourcing more production. This IS the fault of the UAW, as their costs are too high. The auto jobs that are growing in the US are from foreign, non-unionized labor.
Is that the crisis dallas was talking about? It wasn't very clear from his post.
this is so typical of the academic thinking that we have around in the healthcare debate. Once you have ran a real business and put your own capital at risk in hope for a return, you will understand why.
If the GOP pays for a 'think tank', who is made of of old Phd's, absent of peer review, and expresses their thoughs to the uneducated/unenlightened, is that alright? How about if the buy major media outlets and tell the masses how to think? Come on, think for yourself and quit telling us what the big public relations firms have hatched up for their masters. We got the masses the ability to read and now they are just as loss. Clever folks can sway folks to go against their best interests. How many times can one be hoodwinked before they learn? At least the UAW allows you to think for yourself.
Perhaps we can live on $2 a day as most do in India? Maybe we should look into the average American living on $2 a day, so we can compete? Unfortunately, for your reasoning, the majority of these jobs going away are NOT UAW represented. Then too, Chase (JP Morgan) just anounced that they are laying off to open an overseas call center. Then they might be able to justify the outrageous bonus? Get a grip, it doesn't have to be UAW to be shipped off.
Well, if GM/For/Chrysler products were half price, we could live on a lot less. Either way, prices for autos in the US are headed down (thanks to the global competition). So are UAW wages...for good.
Well, if GM/For/Chrysler products were half price, we could live on a lot less. Either way, prices for autos in the US are headed down (thanks to the global competition). So are UAW wages...for good.
Lets see, the biggest consumer on the planet, America, will bleed jobs. Then America will buy less, since they have fewer jobs. Oh yeah, that will work. I thought all we wanted was to buy the world a Coke? It will come full circle. The rebirth of the UAW is in the near future. I feel the French revolution too. Then the abusers will bleed too.
They even named (coined) it after a UAW made auto. Why couldn't they have called it the Lexus tax?
Well that's easy to figure out. Our healthcare/insurance system is bloated, inefficient, and some say unreliable. I think "Cadillac" is the perfect term to use;) Personally, I think "UAW plans" would be even more fitting;)
You could have been in public relations. To spin that to the UAW is almost as good as their spinning the TARP as a Obama creation. We all know that Bush (a so called free marketer) was asking for welfare for the banks. We all also know that all our ills are brought on by the the left. Any way Beck/Rush/Norris/FAUX say so.
This whole thing just pisses me off to no end. Obama is telling us these expensive insurance plans are partly to blame for the unsustainable increases in healthcare costs, so they should be taxed to help pay for healthcare reform. If that's the case, expensive healthcare plans negotiated by the unions are as much of the problem as any other expensive insurance plan. They should not be exempt. Talk about blatantly buying votes.
LOL, no I don't think could ever be politically correct long enough to keep that kind of job for very long. I'm to much of a smart [non-permissible content removed].
".....Well, if GM/For/Chrysler products were half price, we could live on a lot less. Either way, prices for autos in the US are headed down (thanks to the global competition). So are UAW wages...for good. "
So what makes you think that just because pressure pushes prices of products down, that the same pressure won't push our salaries down.
If we could live on a lot less, the market would make sure we lived WITH a lot less.
".....you mean Obama just "invested" our money for us, without us knowing about it, right? "
No, Bush and Bernarke were the TARP masterminds. The $25 or so million GM and Chrysler first got came from the last of the first round of TARP funds, in 12/08.
".....it does, just look at those made UAW folks venting their frustration here, "
You actually smile at the thought of Americans salaries dropping? UAW or not?? You MUST be one of those rotten executives benefitting from outsourcing American jobs overseas.
The salaries for the old manufacturing standards will decline because cars have become commodities. The future of UAW costs in the present system will not survive, IMHO.
The swift decline of Detroit’s automakers have undercut the union’s political influence both in Washington D.C. and even in Michigan, which was only underscored last week when Lt. Gov. John Cherry took himself out of the race for the Democratic gubernatorial nomination.
It was assumed Cherry had already locked up the UAW’s support.
King also has to figure out a way to make the UAW relevant to a new generation of workers. Those workers are increasingly skeptical about the prospects for securing a piece of the old American Dream following a decade-long slide in the fortunes of typical working families — not only in Michigan, but all over the United States.
Why pay the UAW for auto jobs/salaries that will decline? It makes no sense!
As long as our people and our leaders lack the courage to see the hole we are in and make the tough decisions and demand responsibility and accountability at all levels, we are doomed.
You do know that giving GM and C the TARP money was to make it easier for Obama's Transition. If Bush wanted to be hateful like Bill Clinton he would have left office with GM in bankruptcy as he should have. Congress which was Democrat controlled did not want to bail out GM or C. They would have let Obama come into a real big mess.
Perhaps we can live on $2 a day as most do in India? Maybe we should look into the average American living on $2 a day, so we can compete? Unfortunately, for your reasoning, the majority of these jobs going away are NOT UAW represented. Then too, Chase (JP Morgan) just anounced that they are laying off to open an overseas call center. Then they might be able to justify the outrageous bonus? Get a grip, it doesn't have to be UAW to be shipped off.
First, I commend you for a post where you were not citing or quoting something. :P
Nobody is talking about living on $2/day. A common approach to arguing is to argue the ridiculously opposite point, which you have done. Unfortunately there is a lot of grey in the middle. $2/day is not realistic, but neither is $30/hr for driving a forklift or sweeping floors. And the UAW has proven that it actually harms its parent companies' while costing more than non-union workers in the US and being less flexible. That is not much of a value proposition to any company.
Also nobody talked about the majority of jobs going away being UAW. This is a diversion tactic. We are talking about the UAW in this forum, and the UAW has NOT shown much value to anybody except those who are living high on the hog. The loss of the Big 3 dominance has been disastrous to many non-UAW workers, yet I don't hear the UAW being too concerned about that. They say they believe in jobs, but it appears to be only union jobs. If you are non-union in the US your job is not important. And certainly the UAW doesn't want more taxes on their health care benefits to help other US citizens. They only care about themselves while claiming that they are for the working man.
As far as Chase, again, off topic. I've seen nobody feel that the bankers are innocent, yet that is a topic for another location.
So I really don't see you providing any significant argument to my original point. :shades:
So what makes you think that just because pressure pushes prices of products down, that the same pressure won't push our salaries down.
Well the alternative to a highly cost-competitive and ruthless auto industry with tons of choices would look more like your local phone company or cable TV provider.
I know I just love it when my internet and TV bill keeps going up as TW Cable forces me to move from analog to digital, forces me to rent a box for each TV, and then wants to cap my internet usage. I have no other broadband provider in my area.
If you had an auto industry like the cable industry you would have GM and F and the cars would be like a 1974 Vega vs. Pinto, and the price would be up to $50K. Take your pick of either.
If you had an auto industry like the cable industry you would have GM and F and the cars would be like a 1974 Vega vs. Pinto, and the price would be up to $50K. Take your pick of either.
And the UAW would reign supreme!
But those days are gone forever. The UAW hopes for a rebirth but it ain't gonna happen...No Way, No How!
It all comes back to balance. The cable/telecom companies will get theirs also.
The markets ALWAYS find efficiency at the end of the day. Everything else is futile.
If you had an auto industry like the cable industry you would have GM and F and the cars would be like a 1974 Vega vs. Pinto, and the price would be up to $50K. Take your pick of either.
We'd have the Russian AvtoVAZ made Lada which is probably one of the worst cars you can buy. It would be UAW heaven as AvtoVAZ employs 104,000 people to build 750,000 cars a year, that's about 10% of Toyota's efficiency. Granted the average pay is about $200/mo.
LadaCanada started importing the Russian made cars in 1979. The first model was the Lada 2106, with a 1500 cc engine. Later, the Lada Niva, a 1.6L 4x4 Lada, did very well, with over 12,000 sold in Canada in its first year of import. Lada disappeared from Canada after the 1998 model year due to the fact low-cost South Korean automakers Daewoo Motors and Kia Motors arrived in Canada at the time. By the late 2000s, many Lada dealerships and Lada products have mostly disappeared from Canadian streets. There are some Lada vehicles that are still in use in Canada. The Canadian vehicle market is now mostly dominated by the major American, German, Swedish, Japanese, and Korean car manufacturers.
I recall Hyundai was in Canada before the U.S. with the Hyundai Pony. I believe Hyundai came into the U.S. around 1986. Not sure when they debuted in Canada.
As far as Chase, again, off topic. I've seen nobody feel that the bankers are innocent, yet that is a topic for another location.
Bankers/UAW take tax money/TARP and use the funds to stimulate a foriegn economy.
Also nobody talked about the majority of jobs going away being UAW. This is a diversion tactic.
The forum acts as if the only companies suffering are the companies which have an association with the UAW. The UAW is the only reason any and all economic woes. Your failing to deal with economic reality. Many companies have gone under, with no ties whatsoever to the UAW. The unionized German auto giants are not only competing with non- unionized Honda/Toyota, but even taking it to them. So therefore your addressing everything in the "UAW is evil" mindset. You have few if any ideas, just an echo of the radio show/puppetmaster.
Perhaps we can live on $2 a day as most do in India?
That is the reason jobs are going to India (and overseas in general). I feel you just don't want and or have no answers to the facts. UAW or no UAW we here in America have to keep people employed. This is the race to the bottom.
Comments
My main source for my comment was this article in McKinsey quarterly: http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/rp/healthcare/accounting_cost_healthcare.asp . They identify several areas in which the US spends too much, and I didn't want to list them all. The ones that I mentioned were among the highest, but together make up only a small fraction of the estimated $500 billion annual that the US over spends. The excess amount that we spend is divided into the following major categories:
Drugs and devices: $73B
Physician compensation: $58B
Nursing labor: $50B (because we have more nurses, not because they are overpaid)
Administration and insurance: $98B
Profits by private hospitals: $41B
These numbers were from 2003. Certainly other things would have gotten worse.
this is so typical of the academic thinking that we have around in the healthcare debate. Once you have ran a real business and put your own capital at risk in hope for a return, you will understand why.
agreed. we basically create a market where everyone gets a BMW because the buyer doesn't pay for the car and somebody else does.
what we really need is more Chevys (in terms of offering varying levels of healthcare options) - we need more affordable low quality healthcare options.
"This is the poster child of a distorted market and by no means sustainable. "
absolutely true.
"They identify several areas in which the US spends too much, "
you don't need they to tell you that. Next time you are at your doctors, insist that you don't do all the tests s/he tells you to do and insist on using older and generic drugs and insist to your insurer that you don't take that expensive operation until it is absolutely necessary to save your life.
Start with you and start now!
"The excess amount that we spend is divided into the following major categories: "
I believe they typically teach you in highschool that as one gets wealthier, one values his/her life more and as such one is more willing to spend to sustain that life. so it is no miracle and puzzling that as the wealthiest nation in the world (which I quite frankly think is a hoax), we should spend the most on healthcare.
But that's something only a highschool drop-out will find tough to understand.
Drugs and devices: $73B
Physician compensation: $58B
Nursing labor: $50B (because we have more nurses, not because they are overpaid)
Administration and insurance: $98B
Profits by private hospitals: $41B
These numbers were from 2003. Certainly other things would have gotten worse.
Sure they can, well, maybe not now, but they could have There was an opportunity to do that back in May-June when GM and Chrysler went C11.
Now, we see just how much the UAW cares for anyone other than their own members - zippo. That goes for government workers at various levels also. Harry white collar worker is going to have to pay more for his insurance because his neighbor, Joe UAW worker, is exempt.
Better yet, you folks who use the socialist label, mail back the social security checks. That will show them your true convictions.
Perhaps you want the same free market fools who ran all of the banking into the ground to fix the healthcare market?
The current crisis is a direct result of shipping them jobs overseas. smoke and mirrors and finger pointing isn't going to solve it. The AMA and the UAW are nothing but organizations representing labor. The UAW , just like the American middle class, is but a victim of the greed driven robber barrons. Get over it, deal with it, and try thinking for yourself.
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/autoshowblog/index.php?blogid=547
I agree that the UAW is loyal to their dues paying members. However, this money which was prior used to buy tax exempt benefits, will now or in the near future be taxable income. Hence, the extra taxes could go to offset other burdens.
thank god we live in a society where lies aren't true just because you say so.
1 - the product has been poor for so long (not all UAW's fault)
2 - even the US makers are outsourcing more production. This IS the fault of the UAW, as their costs are too high. The auto jobs that are growing in the US are from foreign, non-unionized labor.
Is that the crisis dallas was talking about? It wasn't very clear from his post.
If the GOP pays for a 'think tank', who is made of of old Phd's, absent of peer review, and expresses their thoughs to the uneducated/unenlightened, is that alright? How about if the buy major media outlets and tell the masses how to think? Come on, think for yourself and quit telling us what the big public relations firms have hatched up for their masters. We got the masses the ability to read and now they are just as loss. Clever folks can sway folks to go against their best interests. How many times can one be hoodwinked before they learn? At least the UAW allows you to think for yourself.
Perhaps we can live on $2 a day as most do in India? Maybe we should look into the average American living on $2 a day, so we can compete? Unfortunately, for your reasoning, the majority of these jobs going away are NOT UAW represented. Then too, Chase (JP Morgan) just anounced that they are laying off to open an overseas call center. Then they might be able to justify the outrageous bonus? Get a grip, it doesn't have to be UAW to be shipped off.
All things balance at the end of the day.
Regards,
OW
Lets see, the biggest consumer on the planet, America, will bleed jobs. Then America will buy less, since they have fewer jobs. Oh yeah, that will work. I thought all we wanted was to buy the world a Coke? It will come full circle. The rebirth of the UAW is in the near future. I feel the French revolution too. Then the abusers will bleed too.
Well that's easy to figure out. Our healthcare/insurance system is bloated, inefficient, and some say unreliable. I think "Cadillac" is the perfect term to use;) Personally, I think "UAW plans" would be even more fitting;)
You could have been in public relations. To spin that to the UAW is almost as good as their spinning the TARP as a Obama creation. We all know that Bush (a so called free marketer) was asking for welfare for the banks. We all also know that all our ills are brought on by the the left. Any way Beck/Rush/Norris/FAUX say so.
Regards,
OW
yeah, those lazy UAW jobs are going, going and hopefully all gone.
the rest of us are just fine with that,
which part of "let's be honest" do you have trouble understanding?
LOL, no I don't think could ever be politically correct long enough to keep that kind of job for very long. I'm to much of a smart [non-permissible content removed].
you mean Obama just "invested" our money for us, without us knowing about it, right?
So what makes you think that just because pressure pushes prices of products down, that the same pressure won't push our salaries down.
If we could live on a lot less, the market would make sure we lived WITH a lot less.
I absolutely positively love you line of reasoning,
it does, just look at those made UAW folks venting their frustration here,
No, Bush and Bernarke were the TARP masterminds. The $25 or so million GM and Chrysler first got came from the last of the first round of TARP funds, in 12/08.
You actually smile at the thought of Americans salaries dropping? UAW or not?? You MUST be one of those rotten executives benefitting from outsourcing American jobs overseas.
LOL!
The swift decline of Detroit’s automakers have undercut the union’s political influence both in Washington D.C. and even in Michigan, which was only underscored last week when Lt. Gov. John Cherry took himself out of the race for the Democratic gubernatorial nomination.
It was assumed Cherry had already locked up the UAW’s support.
King also has to figure out a way to make the UAW relevant to a new generation of workers. Those workers are increasingly skeptical about the prospects for securing a piece of the old American Dream following a decade-long slide in the fortunes of typical working families — not only in Michigan, but all over the United States.
Why pay the UAW for auto jobs/salaries that will decline? It makes no sense!
Regards,
OW
I think you could benefited from taking some elementary class on counting.
no wonder UAW vehicles are of so poor quality: they couldn't even tell billions from millions.
I loved at the thought that UAW's salaries are dropping like a rock.
the rest of america seems to like that idea too: well, millions of them have voted with their checkbooks whenever they buy cars.
and there is nothing UAW can do about it.
Isn't it beautiful?
Eh, just a brain fart. Yep, BBBBBBuh Billon or so.
unfortunately, for our nation.
As long as our people and our leaders lack the courage to see the hole we are in and make the tough decisions and demand responsibility and accountability at all levels, we are doomed.
First, I commend you for a post where you were not citing or quoting something. :P
Nobody is talking about living on $2/day. A common approach to arguing is to argue the ridiculously opposite point, which you have done. Unfortunately there is a lot of grey in the middle. $2/day is not realistic, but neither is $30/hr for driving a forklift or sweeping floors. And the UAW has proven that it actually harms its parent companies' while costing more than non-union workers in the US and being less flexible. That is not much of a value proposition to any company.
Also nobody talked about the majority of jobs going away being UAW. This is a diversion tactic. We are talking about the UAW in this forum, and the UAW has NOT shown much value to anybody except those who are living high on the hog. The loss of the Big 3 dominance has been disastrous to many non-UAW workers, yet I don't hear the UAW being too concerned about that. They say they believe in jobs, but it appears to be only union jobs. If you are non-union in the US your job is not important. And certainly the UAW doesn't want more taxes on their health care benefits to help other US citizens. They only care about themselves while claiming that they are for the working man.
As far as Chase, again, off topic. I've seen nobody feel that the bankers are innocent, yet that is a topic for another location.
So I really don't see you providing any significant argument to my original point. :shades:
Well the alternative to a highly cost-competitive and ruthless auto industry with tons of choices would look more like your local phone company or cable TV provider.
I know I just love it when my internet and TV bill keeps going up as TW Cable forces me to move from analog to digital, forces me to rent a box for each TV, and then wants to cap my internet usage. I have no other broadband provider in my area.
If you had an auto industry like the cable industry you would have GM and F and the cars would be like a 1974 Vega vs. Pinto, and the price would be up to $50K. Take your pick of either.
And the UAW would reign supreme!
But those days are gone forever. The UAW hopes for a rebirth but it ain't gonna happen...No Way, No How!
It all comes back to balance. The cable/telecom companies will get theirs also.
The markets ALWAYS find efficiency at the end of the day. Everything else is futile.
Regards,
OW
The UAW is sort of like the efficiency of heroin. They shot up and were high for about 40 years, but then oh what a crash!
We'd have the Russian AvtoVAZ made Lada which is probably one of the worst cars you can buy. It would be UAW heaven as AvtoVAZ employs 104,000 people to build 750,000 cars a year, that's about 10% of Toyota's efficiency. Granted the average pay is about $200/mo.
I don't think so. According to Wikipedia.
LadaCanada started importing the Russian made cars in 1979. The first model was the Lada 2106, with a 1500 cc engine. Later, the Lada Niva, a 1.6L 4x4 Lada, did very well, with over 12,000 sold in Canada in its first year of import. Lada disappeared from Canada after the 1998 model year due to the fact low-cost South Korean automakers Daewoo Motors and Kia Motors arrived in Canada at the time. By the late 2000s, many Lada dealerships and Lada products have mostly disappeared from Canadian streets. There are some Lada vehicles that are still in use in Canada. The Canadian vehicle market is now mostly dominated by the major American, German, Swedish, Japanese, and Korean car manufacturers.
That sounds about right. Those early Excels etc were pretty horrid. Not Yugo bad, but not a whole lot better IMO. Have no idea about Canada.
Bankers/UAW take tax money/TARP and use the funds to stimulate a foriegn economy.
Also nobody talked about the majority of jobs going away being UAW. This is a diversion tactic.
The forum acts as if the only companies suffering are the companies which have an association with the UAW. The UAW is the only reason any and all economic woes. Your failing to deal with economic reality. Many companies have gone under, with no ties whatsoever to the UAW. The unionized German auto giants are not only competing with non- unionized Honda/Toyota, but even taking it to them. So therefore your addressing everything in the "UAW is evil" mindset. You have few if any ideas, just an echo of the radio show/puppetmaster.
Perhaps we can live on $2 a day as most do in India?
That is the reason jobs are going to India (and overseas in general). I feel you just don't want and or have no answers to the facts. UAW or no UAW we here in America have to keep people employed. This is the race to the bottom.
Knowledge is superior to ignorance.
Those fake Packards are cool...and that one could actually be from the 70s. Looks like there are worse cars out there than UAW cars :shades: