The forum acts as if the only companies suffering are the companies which have an association with the UAW. The UAW is the only reason any and all economic woes. Your failing to deal with economic reality. Many companies have gone under, with no ties whatsoever to the UAW. The unionized German auto giants are not only competing with non- unionized Honda/Toyota, but even taking it to them. So therefore your addressing everything in the "UAW is evil" mindset. You have few if any ideas, just an echo of the radio show/puppetmaster.
I generally agree with what your saying and I don't think the UAW is the cause of all our problems. But, IMO, the UAW/Domestic automakers have failed on their own and they are both to blame. I will give GM/Ford/Chrysler management most of the blame though. Until recently with Ford, they've been an embarrassment. Basically 30+ years of bad ideas and poor execution and IMO the UAW was in lock step with them all the way to the bottom.
The German automakers build cars people are willing to pay for all over the world. Very few countries want cars made here. How many vehicles does Cadillac sell around the world? Hardly any. Pick up or watch European car mags and Car Shows (Top Gear etc) and they mostly make fun of Detroit iron. Lemko would have had a heart attack about the things they said about a Park Ave when the guy's from Top Gear was driving one. It was one rip after another.
Even if South Korea or Japan opened up their markets w/o tariffs etc for our cars, does anyone actually think they'd buy them. No they won't. Heck, most people in the US don't want them anymore.
All I can add is I've owned two foreign. One Nissan and one VW. Both were far more rewarding to own and drive vs. all of my domestics combined. That flat out sucks. I want to buy an American made car from an American company. But every time I have I've been sorely disappointed.
I could care less about what some effete Euro-trash snobs with an avowed contempt of everything American think or say. In fact, the more they hate it, the more I would like it. Just don't come calling on the U.S. the next time you guys start a war amongst yourselves or the Russians start rattling their sabers.
UAW or no UAW we here in America have to keep people employed.
If the UAW was really concerned about jobs and other US citizens they would not be strangling their hosts. They would beconcerned about how many jobs their strikes were destroying at dealerships, parts suppliers, etc. They would also not be fighting the proposed tax on Cadillac health plans to help subsidize those who are less fortunate and who have no health insurance or cannot afford it.
They TALK a good propaganda game but are ultimately selfish only for themselves. Why would they not agree to parity at Ford vs. GM and C if they were really concerned about jobs?
You are correct, knowledge IS superior to ignorance.
Many companies have gone under, with no ties whatsoever to the UAW.
All other topics aside, the companies linked to the UAW FAILED. Period, end of story.
Now, post-failure, the UAW will finish off the job or die during the transition away from UAW.
Forget about the broad economic woes. OFF-TOPIC. Let's focus on the financial condition of GM-Motors Liquidation and Fiat- Chrysler liquidation and the UAW impact. Declining customer base = future failure.
"The unionized German auto giants are not only competing with non- unionized Honda/Toyota, but even taking it to them. So therefore your addressing everything in the "UAW is evil" mindset. "
just because some unions are smart and competitive doesn't make UAW smart and competitive.
is that really too difficult for people to comprehend?
"They would also not be fighting the proposed tax on Cadillac health plans to help subsidize those who are less fortunate and who have no health insurance or cannot afford it. "
what's more cynical is that the unions are behind the move to tax cadillac plans: just not theirs.
"......I know I just love it when my internet and TV bill keeps going up as TW Cable forces me to move from analog to digital, forces me to rent a box for each TV, and then wants to cap my internet usage. I have no other broadband provider in my area."
Where do you think that extra money goes?? I have DirecTv, and all I see is my bill creep up too. Certainly, the employees that installed our service aren't enjoying the fruits of our bills, it's the bosses and the networks.
".....It all comes back to balance. The cable/telecom companies will get theirs also."
What the cable tv industry really needs is regulation. I find it unsettling that cable tv providers can own the channels. This allows them to target certain competitors and show favoritism to others (maybe a competitor they hope to purchase.)
The ironic thing is that the cable tv industry isn't even union.
Gary, calling that a monstrosity is an insult. That car has 4 built in hydraulic jacks to make tire changing easy and rain sensors that will automatically put the top up. I believe the headlamps turn with the car, too. VERY advanced for 1952. UAW built too.
>What the cable tv industry really needs is regulation.
Regulation removed by a democrat congress back in Clinton's term. One vote above not passing, IIRC. Thanks to the congress back them! They said, of course, cable rates would go down because of deregulation. Hasn't happened. Same kind of promises as with healthcare. Which leads us back to the UAW supporting obama until it turns out it's their rich ox being gored. Then they want no new taxes and backpedal. Think that will change the UAW's support for the next democrat?
I've become very disenchanted with UAW and other little unions during this first year of the 4-year term. I can't wait until all the real costs start adding up and the union folks start complaining more.
I wonder why nobody has ever used those hydraulic jacks on a production car? Weight? Expense? Heck, if Lexus can make a car that parks itself, why not have one with automatic jacks?
AAA is much more efficient than the UAW at getting the job done. Our Lexus battery died at the gas pump at Costco. Called AAA and had a new battery off and running in less than an hour. He had to call back to the office to get the right battery sent out. The old battery died within a month of the 7 year warranty. Got a 6 year warranty with AAA battery. We mostly use the maps as we DO NOT trust the NAV in our Sequoia.
Were those old tires Union made? They did not hold up as well as modern tires for sure.
What the cable tv industry really needs is regulation. I find it unsettling that cable tv providers can own the channels. This allows them to target certain competitors and show favoritism to others (maybe a competitor they hope to purchase.)
The ironic thing is that the cable tv industry isn't even union.
The cable industry is regulated by the FCC, is it not? And cities decide whether cable companies can build out infrastructure in their jurisdictions. The problem is the cable companies spend all their money lobbying politicians who want to be reelected more than they want to help the citizens.
The problem with the cable industry and the UAW is that we need competition. If you believe in free markets you know that competition, while brutal at times, drives innovation and lower costs. When the D3 were the only game in town you had highly compensated UAW employees and junk vehicles. When the competition got tougher the D3 found it very difficult to innovate and certainly could not compete with lower cost labor. Similarly the cable industry is enough of a monopoly (as are internet providers) and the prices jack up as the service lags behind other countries.
Without Toyota and Honda and VW and Mercedes, etc. coming to our shores we would not have seen the great advances in features, safety, and technology that we have in the automotive market.
The UAW in trying to monopolize the labor for the D3 has effectively killed them. They HATE competition when it affects their golden pay and benefits. Some would say we close our borders to competitive products. But if we do that we will become like Russia was - a closed society driving Ladas while the rest of the world had much better. Go to Cuba and see what a closed society does for the cars being driven.
We can lament how things are going, but there is no way we are going to stop it. So we might as well quit whining and INNOVATE to be the best -- which we can be if we devote our energies to doing it. Like Ford is attempting to do, GM is trying but lagging, and Chrysler is pretty much hopeless.
Our Lexus battery died at the gas pump at Costco. Called AAA and had a new battery off and running in less than an hour.
If my battery died at Costco I would have gone into the store, bought a battery, changed it in the parking lot, and dropped the core off at the tire center... in less than an hour. :shades:
".....The cable industry is regulated by the FCC, is it not? And cities decide whether cable companies can build out infrastructure in their jurisdictions."
It may be regulated by the FCC, but only in the way that the auto industry is "regulated" by the EPA on emissions. Unlike Ma Bell, cable companies can charge what they like, and in most cases, they are a "monopoly" in their areas. Even Satellite TV has only 2 competitors. The auto industry as how many companies competing for our service, union and non union alike?
At Verizon, we have 2 phone services. 1 on the old copper network, and 1 on the FiOS network. We can set our rate on FiOS for whatever we want, but the copper network, we have to go in front of the PUC even to CUT rates. In Mass. there are several communities that have lost out on having FiOS because in order to get a franchise in that community, they want a new library or addition to the school. (Tell me there isn't a cable provider behind that).
For years, we have tried to (unsuccessfully) unionize Cox Cable. But there is more to it than just differences in pay and bennies. A lot has to do with safety. In the summer while we are in jeans and steel toe work boots, they are in shorts and sneakers, hanging off the same poles we are. We require 2 men at all times at a work site when working in a manhole. They don't, and our Contract Work Inspector will refuse them access to our manhole to work on their equiptment if they don't have 2 men, a fresh air blower, and an explosion meter.
But Cox doesn't care, they just want the job done.
We require 2 men at all times at a work site when working in a manhole.
If OSHA does not require two men working a manhole, Cox will eat your lunch on providing service. Cox has made big inroads here in CA with Telephone over cable vs copper. For us it is better service than AT&T provides. I dumped AT&T because of the constant billing errors always in their favor. As far as climbing poles in shorts. If they cut out one time they should learn their lesson. Here Cox repair wear nice neat uniforms with the logo on them.
If your Union is making work rules that decreases the companies competitiveness, they are like the UAW. Wages and benefits were way above the competition for sure. But the 2000 pages of BS work rules is more of a detriment to the company.
As far as safety, I think that OSHA is restrictive enough, that the Union does not need to make it more restrictive. I know our guys working aerial in the Villages did not tie off their ladders all the time. At 40 below zero you want to get up and down before you freeze to death. Tying off a ladder doubles the time to do a job. Hooking a pole with an inch of ice was not a good option. Heck it took us more than 5 years to get B voltage testers for the village work. And some locations we were above the AC lines. We only had one lost time accident in the 25 years I worked up there. The guy went out at 40 below to hook a pole right after his wife called and told him she was divorcing him. The bus driver saw him laying at the base of the pole and got help. He was an experienced climber. He would never talk about it.
"Unlike Ma Bell, cable companies can charge what they like, "
talk to your puc and see what they have to say about your "impression" of how things work for cable companies.
"and in most cases, they are a "monopoly" in their areas. "
thanks to your state's franchisee laws that also apply to auto dealerships, .
"We can set our rate on FiOS for whatever we want, "
because the fios is a new technology and they don't want unions to mess with it.
"In Mass. there are several communities that have lost out on having FiOS because in order to get a franchise in that community, they want a new library or addition to the school. (Tell me there isn't a cable provider behind that). "
well, you cannot have your cake and eat it. those communities will just have to figure out what's more important for them.
"For years, we have tried to (unsuccessfully) unionize Cox Cable. "
thank god for your unsuccessful attempts.
"A lot has to do with safety."
or in the name of safety.
end of the day, you have to figure out what's more important to you: you can always join a lazy union like the uaw and kill your job in the long-term.
or you can invest in yourself and be competitive in reaching your american dream.
We can lament how things are going, but there is no way we are going to stop it. So we might as well quit whining and INNOVATE to be the best -- which we can be if we devote our energies to doing it. Like Ford is attempting to do, GM is trying but lagging, and Chrysler is pretty much hopeless.
Excellent points. Let's see if the UAW embrace your challenge.
or you can invest in yourself and be competitive in reaching your American dream.
...but you may still lose. Education is always a good investment, but a college degree isn't the magic bullet it once was. Ask all those IT programmers and specialists whose jobs were moved to Bangladore. I guess one can always get their McMBA from some online diploma mill and pretend they're a captain of industry as a Wal~Mart assistant manager.
".....If OSHA does not require two men working a manhole, Cox will eat your lunch on providing service. "
Even if OSHA doesn't mandate it, we do. If they want to work in our manhole which they lease space for, they must provide 2 men, PLUS pay for our contract work inspector.
".....As far as climbing poles in shorts. If they cut out one time they should learn their lesson. "
That won't happen. They only lease the attachment. Therefore, their techs must ladder the strand. They can't even attach the service drop to the pole, only the strand. But their techs don't strap the ladder to the strand like we do (if we don't tie in to our strand or lash our ladder to the pole, we get suspended.
Also, the rates we charge for the lease of space are regulated. Otherwise, I'm sure we (and AT&T) would price them right off the pole.
"........but you may still lose. Education is always a good investment, but a college degree isn't the magic bullet it once was."
Great point. At the end of the day, no matter how educated you are, or how well you do your job, or how little you get paid, there is always somebody who "thinks" you make too much for what you do. CEO's think we should work for free so they get all the spoils.
It seems to me that most bachelor's degree graduates have not much more than $10-$15 an hour jobs to look forward to these days. Everything has become corporatized to the point that there just isn't any opportunity anymore for real responsibility for anyone who did not start at or pretty much near the top (i.e., Ivy League/parents with connections, etc.).
like any investment, there is no sure way of winning, other than keep investing in yourself.
The problem with UAW members is that they are unkilled labor insisting on being paid like highly skilled labor. That worked when the big3 were the only game in town. Once you have global competition, the union is down the drain.
"It seems to me that most bachelor's degree graduates have not much more than $10-$15 an hour jobs to look forward to these days. Everything has become corporatized to the point that there just isn't any opportunity anymore for real responsibility for anyone who did not start at or pretty much near the top (i.e., Ivy League/parents with connections, etc.)."
that's called supply and demand: when everyone of your friends are highschool dropouts, having a bachelor's degree makes you standout.
when everyone of your friends have bachelor's degree, you are just one of them.
when everyone of your friends have master's degree, having a bachelor's degree makes you standout again - as the only rock in town.
That's why you have to find a niche for yourself, or you struggle.
for whatever reason you laugh at the CEOs, they have a skill few has, that makes them well paid.
In a sense, I agree. It used to be the conventional wisdom that you needed a college education if you wanted to get ahead and move up the social ladder. However, this was back in the day when there were relatively very few people getting college educations. Now, companies and corporations are being bombarded with with resumes from highly qualified college grads and are still sending them back rejection letters. Due to this paradigm shift, kids graduating high school these days should seriously think twice about going to college.
Our society needs to reassess the notion that four years of college is, (or should be) the only path to success in this country. We are in the throes of an education bubble: one that is being perpetuated by the shills for colleges throughout the country. We should cut through the b.s. and face the reality that colleges have morphed into very expensive vocational schools. The primary reason people pay the exorbitant rates is for the promise of having a better financial future. Now that the economy is tanking, people are more desperate to increase the value they project to the market place. That being the case, a faster, less expensive path to acquiring the skills needed for a given profession needs to be developed.
Unfortunately, due to the Free Trade Agreements of the last 15 years, U.S. companies have been exporting manufacture and service jobs abroad at a feverish pace. At the same time, Colleges/Universities/and Specialty Schools have cropped up all over, touting getting a degree to get a better job. Coincidently, the bankruptcy laws changed, whereby student loans can no longer be discharged if a person filed bankruptcy.
Millions of people hurting from unemployment cannot blame themselves. They should blame the policies of exporting good-paying jobs to poor countries. Both Democrats and Republicans have created this unprecedented policy which is making America poorer. Eventually, the masses will revolt.
Yes, college students must realize their country has sold them out to cheap labor in third-world toilets. Start competing with 12 cents an hour labor or shut up, America!
It seems to me that most bachelor's degree graduates have not much more than $10-$15 an hour jobs to look forward to these days.
Not true. If you have a degree in English, Political Science, Sociology, Philosophy, History, etc., then that is much more the case. But if your degree is in engineering, science, nursing, etc. the jobs are much more plentiful. We in particular are not graduating nearly enough engineers. This bodes poorly for the future, as this was what made the US strong. Nowadays everybody wants to be an accountant or banker and be a crook like the rest of them.
I also understand that machinists are in great demand, as one example of a blue collar job that is still needed.
But UAW jobs are declining rapidly, due to their own stupidity and the stupidity of the union.
I dunno about engineering. In 15 to 20 years after graduation only 1 out of 4 engineers is still employed in his field. Engineers are now virtually migrant workers. When the company has a contract, they hire. When it runs out, they lay off or fire. When your salary goes up, so does the chance that the company will hire somebody with an H1B visa that they can pay a lot less and expect to work hours impossible for a worker with a family life. Pretty soon temp work will be the best you can hope for. It's a sad state of affairs for the American engineer. I've seen it happen far too many times. This is probably why so many of today's kids don't follow their Dad's career path into engineering.
n a sense, I agree. It used to be the conventional wisdom that you needed a college education if you wanted to get ahead and move up the social ladder. However, this was back in the day when there were relatively very few people getting college educations. Now, companies and corporations are being bombarded with with resumes from highly qualified college grads and are still sending them back rejection letters. Due to this paradigm shift, kids graduating high school these days should seriously think twice about going to college.
We still have over 1 million students dropping out of HS a year. We're far from having to many going to college. As it stands now, nearly 20% of adults don't have a HS diploma and were still under 30% of working adults 25 and older with a bachelors degree. That's still a long way from every job seeker having a degree.
I know several people with bachelors degrees that have lost jobs over the past 18 months and all of them had another job paying the same or better within 3 mos. of their layoff and most had more than one offer. While that is probably not the norm, the stats still show those w/o a degree stay laid off much longer and make significantly less.
A degree certainly doesn't guarantee anything, but it can provide more options and open more doors. Anyone should think long and hard before going to college in order to chose the best path. You can't expect to spend $30k+ year at an elite art school to get a degree in photography or something like pencil sketching and expect to graduate with a good paying job to repay your $120+ student loan.
Also, one should not feel like they have to go to college. It just takes a plan, the days of graduating or dropping out of HS and walking straight to the mill or GM plant expecting a $50k job will be in for a rude awakening. Still, many trades need people and pay well. Heavy equipment operators, plumbers, carpentry, iron workers, welders, machinists, mechanics etc are needed and you don't have to go to a 4 yr college, just go through an apprenticeship or vocational program. I can't send my plumbing issue or car problem to India, so I think those jobs will be safe.
Many have made references on how great the 50's and 60's were for employment, but last I checked we still had lots of poor people and ghettos. Why didn't all those people just go to a factory for a middle class paying job? Reading some of these posts, makes one think everyone had access to a great job 50 years ago, that simply isn't true. Honestly, those days were horrible in terms of discrimination against anyone that wasn't a male WASP.
One thing that probably rings true today as it always has, those who work hard and have a plan will find success regardless of the path they choose to get there.
Not true. If you have a degree in English, Political Science, Sociology, Philosophy, History, etc., then that is much more the case. But if your degree is in engineering, science, nursing, etc. the jobs are much more plentiful. We in particular are not graduating nearly enough engineers. This bodes poorly for the future, as this was what made the US strong. Nowadays everybody wants to be an accountant or banker and be a crook like the rest of them.
I agree. I went to school, have worked with, and live among several. They still seem to be doing very well. A good friend of mine is a software engineer. Listening to some on these boards, you'd think she'd be living of soup trying to compete with an Indian engineer. Not the case, she works out of her house, making over $150k/yr. She was laid off last Nov. and found another job within 2 mos with a sign-on bonus plus stock options and paying even more money.
I know the H1B visa thing is brought up a lot. A few years ago when the Pharmacist shortage was at critical levels, my wife hired a some Pharmacists through the program. According to her it was such a PITA with all of the red tape and regs it wasn't worth it. She was paying the same for those on the visa, so maybe it would be worth it if you could pay 1/2 for the same kind of work.
Still, many trades need people and pay well. Heavy equipment operators, plumbers, carpentry, iron workers, welders, machinists, mechanics etc are needed and you don't have to go to a 4 yr college, just go through an apprenticeship or vocational program. I can't send my plumbing issue or car problem to India, so I think those jobs will be safe.
This is probably the best advice these days. To attain gainful employment, one needs SKILLS not just a degree. I recall watching "American Chopper" and seeing a guy who probably had only a G.E.D. fabricate a customized motorcycle fuel tank from flat pieces of sheet metal. I was quite impressed. I have a college degree and earn decent money, but thought about going to school to learn to be an auto mechanic just for my own knowledge. Heck, many is the time I wish I had the skills of a machinist just so I can fabricate an obsolete or unobtainable part.
"but thought about going to school to learn to be an auto mechanic just for my own knowledge. "
there are tons of high-paying jobs without a "high" degree. traffic controllers, nurses, auto mechanics: BMW certified mechanics routinely make over $100K.
or better yet, put your own capital at risk and be your own boss.
This is probably the best advice these days. To attain gainful employment, one needs SKILLS not just a degree. I recall watching "American Chopper" and seeing a guy who probably had only a G.E.D. fabricate a customized motorcycle fuel tank from flat pieces of sheet metal. I was quite impressed. I have a college degree and earn decent money, but thought about going to school to learn to be an auto mechanic just for my own knowledge. Heck, many is the time I wish I had the skills of a machinist just so I can fabricate an obsolete or unobtainable part.
It comes down to what you want to do. That is certainly an area where you if have the ability, you can make a good or even great living (particularly if you own the shop), certainly not everyone has the ability. A friend of mine owns a machine shop. He doesn't have a degree and is very smart, he received most of his training in the military, then through an apprenticeship. He employs about 25 people, and makes a very good living.
We still have over 1 million students dropping out of HS a year. We're far from having to many going to college. As it stands now, nearly 20% of adults don't have a HS diploma
My view, is that is a direct result of too high of a minimum wage. Kids see an opportunity to make $8 per hour and drop out of HS. They make plenty to buy a cool car and gas while leeching off mom and dad. By the time they wake up and smell the roses they are in debt and have their girlfriend in a family way. I know this happens because I have close family that did just that. They live a life near poverty and expect the government to subsidize their ignorance.
The UAW did a disservice to many young people by making them believe working as a lug nut tightener was a lifetime job with pay equal to a person with a college degree. Now their world is upside down.
Many have made references on how great the 50's and 60's were for employment
It also helped that many past presidents did look out for the working man. Hoover, Truman and Ike all implemented programs to expel illegal immigrants to insure jobs for our soldiers coming home from wars.
The same party the UAW gives millions to each election does not care enough about American citizens to protect them from non-citizen workers in this country.
in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported well over 1 million Mexican Nationals! The program was called 'Operation Wetback'. It was done so WWII and Korean Veterans would have a better chance at jobs. It took 2 Years, but they deported them!
Now there is a field that despite no union I don't know how they command the salary they do? A few in hospitals have to do skilled chemistry, but most just stand around in store pharmacies while lower paid clerks fill the order taking pills from the big bottle and putting them in the small one, then they just read off the computer if you have a question. I guess its a case of a hard college curriculum but a boring, but well paid job afterwards.
A degree certainly doesn't guarantee anything, but it can provide more options and open more doors
I think you also want to go to the best quality university you can. I don't think PAC-10, Big -10, etc. are having as many problems getting a job as those from lower rated schools, although its still tough and very competitive out there. Of course, after a few years on the job where the degree came from becomes less important.
Now there is a field that despite no union I don't know how they command the salary they do? A few in hospitals have to do skilled chemistry, but most just stand around in store pharmacies while lower paid clerks fill the order taking pills from the big bottle and putting them in the small one, then they just read off the computer if you have a question. I guess its a case of a hard college curriculum but a boring, but well paid job afterwards.
Yep, the computer does everything and your average flunky can sit behind the counter and count by fives all day. Anyone who believes that is clueless. That's no different then saying a commercial airline pilot is overpaid. The computer flies the plane 90% of the time. Who needs Sully on board. I guess anyone can be an engineer too, all it takes is a copy of Autocad.
Supply and demand is what primarily dictates the pay. To many positions available and not enough people qualified for the job.
Actually some pharmacists are union. I know in Chicago many belong to the United Steel Workers Union.
The UAW did a disservice to many young people by making them believe working as a lug nut tightener was a lifetime job with pay equal to a person with a college degree. Now their world is upside down.
Absolutely! That's great until the gravy train is over. What does a person do with limited skills when the plant closes. It was great having a $20-30/hr job with $10 hr skills, but reality hits hard when the GM plant closes and your lucky to get a $10/hr job.
It really is sad, but anyone under 50 should have seen this coming over the past 20 years
posted by Steve elsewhere: UAW to sell famed Black Lake retreat
The United Auto Workers is hoping to sell its $33 million lakeside retreat in northern Michigan, long a symbol of the union's success but now a financial liability.
The UAW cited the recession and shrinking membership as reasons it is seeking a buyer for the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center, located on 1,000 heavily forested acres near Onaway. The union bought the property in 1967.
The center, named for the union's iconic leader, was a jewel in which many UAW members took great pride. It is expected to go on the market yet this month.
I think DD needs to take up a collection from all the fat cat UAW workers and retirees and buy the place they revere.
No problem. I thought it was news that needed to be here. And it did fit the debate in the clunker thread.
It will be interesting to see if the rank and file really give a hoot about the place where Reuther's ashes are scattered. I don't imagine anyone will buy it and build a factory on the land. Maybe the Ford family will buy it and make a memorial to their founder. After all Henry Ford really started the boom in automobiles and the UAW helped in the demise of US automakers. No love lost between Henry Ford and the UAW.
Comments
I generally agree with what your saying and I don't think the UAW is the cause of all our problems. But, IMO, the UAW/Domestic automakers have failed on their own and they are both to blame. I will give GM/Ford/Chrysler management most of the blame though. Until recently with Ford, they've been an embarrassment. Basically 30+ years of bad ideas and poor execution and IMO the UAW was in lock step with them all the way to the bottom.
The German automakers build cars people are willing to pay for all over the world. Very few countries want cars made here. How many vehicles does Cadillac sell around the world? Hardly any. Pick up or watch European car mags and Car Shows (Top Gear etc) and they mostly make fun of Detroit iron. Lemko would have had a heart attack about the things they said about a Park Ave when the guy's from Top Gear was driving one. It was one rip after another.
Even if South Korea or Japan opened up their markets w/o tariffs etc for our cars, does anyone actually think they'd buy them. No they won't. Heck, most people in the US don't want them anymore.
All I can add is I've owned two foreign. One Nissan and one VW. Both were far more rewarding to own and drive vs. all of my domestics combined. That flat out sucks. I want to buy an American made car from an American company. But every time I have I've been sorely disappointed.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If the UAW was really concerned about jobs and other US citizens they would not be strangling their hosts. They would beconcerned about how many jobs their strikes were destroying at dealerships, parts suppliers, etc. They would also not be fighting the proposed tax on Cadillac health plans to help subsidize those who are less fortunate and who have no health insurance or cannot afford it.
They TALK a good propaganda game but are ultimately selfish only for themselves. Why would they not agree to parity at Ford vs. GM and C if they were really concerned about jobs?
You are correct, knowledge IS superior to ignorance.
All other topics aside, the companies linked to the UAW FAILED. Period, end of story.
Now, post-failure, the UAW will finish off the job or die during the transition away from UAW.
Forget about the broad economic woes. OFF-TOPIC. Let's focus on the financial condition of GM-Motors Liquidation and Fiat- Chrysler liquidation and the UAW impact. Declining customer base = future failure.
May the best CARS win! :P
Regards,
OW
just because some unions are smart and competitive doesn't make UAW smart and competitive.
is that really too difficult for people to comprehend?
what's more cynical is that the unions are behind the move to tax cadillac plans: just not theirs.
Where do you think that extra money goes?? I have DirecTv, and all I see is my bill creep up too. Certainly, the employees that installed our service aren't enjoying the fruits of our bills, it's the bosses and the networks.
What the cable tv industry really needs is regulation. I find it unsettling that cable tv providers can own the channels. This allows them to target certain competitors and show favoritism to others (maybe a competitor they hope to purchase.)
The ironic thing is that the cable tv industry isn't even union.
Regulation removed by a democrat congress back in Clinton's term. One vote above not passing, IIRC. Thanks to the congress back them! They said, of course, cable rates would go down because of deregulation. Hasn't happened. Same kind of promises as with healthcare. Which leads us back to the UAW supporting obama until it turns out it's their rich ox being gored. Then they want no new taxes and backpedal. Think that will change the UAW's support for the next democrat?
I've become very disenchanted with UAW and other little unions during this first year of the 4-year term. I can't wait until all the real costs start adding up and the union folks start complaining more.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Call AAA, and you can guarantee to be watching traffic for an hour or 2 before they get to you.
Were those old tires Union made? They did not hold up as well as modern tires for sure.
The ironic thing is that the cable tv industry isn't even union.
The cable industry is regulated by the FCC, is it not? And cities decide whether cable companies can build out infrastructure in their jurisdictions. The problem is the cable companies spend all their money lobbying politicians who want to be reelected more than they want to help the citizens.
The problem with the cable industry and the UAW is that we need competition. If you believe in free markets you know that competition, while brutal at times, drives innovation and lower costs. When the D3 were the only game in town you had highly compensated UAW employees and junk vehicles. When the competition got tougher the D3 found it very difficult to innovate and certainly could not compete with lower cost labor. Similarly the cable industry is enough of a monopoly (as are internet providers) and the prices jack up as the service lags behind other countries.
Without Toyota and Honda and VW and Mercedes, etc. coming to our shores we would not have seen the great advances in features, safety, and technology that we have in the automotive market.
The UAW in trying to monopolize the labor for the D3 has effectively killed them. They HATE competition when it affects their golden pay and benefits. Some would say we close our borders to competitive products. But if we do that we will become like Russia was - a closed society driving Ladas while the rest of the world had much better. Go to Cuba and see what a closed society does for the cars being driven.
We can lament how things are going, but there is no way we are going to stop it. So we might as well quit whining and INNOVATE to be the best -- which we can be if we devote our energies to doing it. Like Ford is attempting to do, GM is trying but lagging, and Chrysler is pretty much hopeless.
If my battery died at Costco I would have gone into the store, bought a battery, changed it in the parking lot, and dropped the core off at the tire center... in less than an hour. :shades:
It may be regulated by the FCC, but only in the way that the auto industry is "regulated" by the EPA on emissions. Unlike Ma Bell, cable companies can charge what they like, and in most cases, they are a "monopoly" in their areas. Even Satellite TV has only 2 competitors. The auto industry as how many companies competing for our service, union and non union alike?
At Verizon, we have 2 phone services. 1 on the old copper network, and 1 on the FiOS network. We can set our rate on FiOS for whatever we want, but the copper network, we have to go in front of the PUC even to CUT rates. In Mass. there are several communities that have lost out on having FiOS because in order to get a franchise in that community, they want a new library or addition to the school. (Tell me there isn't a cable provider behind that).
For years, we have tried to (unsuccessfully) unionize Cox Cable. But there is more to it than just differences in pay and bennies. A lot has to do with safety. In the summer while we are in jeans and steel toe work boots, they are in shorts and sneakers, hanging off the same poles we are. We require 2 men at all times at a work site when working in a manhole. They don't, and our Contract Work Inspector will refuse them access to our manhole to work on their equiptment if they don't have 2 men, a fresh air blower, and an explosion meter.
But Cox doesn't care, they just want the job done.
If OSHA does not require two men working a manhole, Cox will eat your lunch on providing service. Cox has made big inroads here in CA with Telephone over cable vs copper. For us it is better service than AT&T provides. I dumped AT&T because of the constant billing errors always in their favor. As far as climbing poles in shorts. If they cut out one time they should learn their lesson. Here Cox repair wear nice neat uniforms with the logo on them.
If your Union is making work rules that decreases the companies competitiveness, they are like the UAW. Wages and benefits were way above the competition for sure. But the 2000 pages of BS work rules is more of a detriment to the company.
As far as safety, I think that OSHA is restrictive enough, that the Union does not need to make it more restrictive. I know our guys working aerial in the Villages did not tie off their ladders all the time. At 40 below zero you want to get up and down before you freeze to death. Tying off a ladder doubles the time to do a job. Hooking a pole with an inch of ice was not a good option. Heck it took us more than 5 years to get B voltage testers for the village work. And some locations we were above the AC lines. We only had one lost time accident in the 25 years I worked up there. The guy went out at 40 below to hook a pole right after his wife called and told him she was divorcing him. The bus driver saw him laying at the base of the pole and got help. He was an experienced climber. He would never talk about it.
talk to your puc and see what they have to say about your "impression" of how things work for cable companies.
"and in most cases, they are a "monopoly" in their areas. "
thanks to your state's franchisee laws that also apply to auto dealerships,
"We can set our rate on FiOS for whatever we want, "
because the fios is a new technology and they don't want unions to mess with it.
"In Mass. there are several communities that have lost out on having FiOS because in order to get a franchise in that community, they want a new library or addition to the school. (Tell me there isn't a cable provider behind that). "
well, you cannot have your cake and eat it. those communities will just have to figure out what's more important for them.
"For years, we have tried to (unsuccessfully) unionize Cox Cable. "
thank god for your unsuccessful attempts.
"A lot has to do with safety."
or in the name of safety.
end of the day, you have to figure out what's more important to you: you can always join a lazy union like the uaw and kill your job in the long-term.
or you can invest in yourself and be competitive in reaching your american dream.
Excellent points. Let's see if the UAW embrace your challenge.
Regards,
OW
...but you may still lose. Education is always a good investment, but a college degree isn't the magic bullet it once was. Ask all those IT programmers and specialists whose jobs were moved to Bangladore. I guess one can always get their McMBA from some online diploma mill and pretend they're a captain of industry as a Wal~Mart assistant manager.
Even if OSHA doesn't mandate it, we do. If they want to work in our manhole which they lease space for, they must provide 2 men, PLUS pay for our contract work inspector.
".....As far as climbing poles in shorts. If they cut out one time they should learn their lesson. "
That won't happen. They only lease the attachment. Therefore, their techs must ladder the strand. They can't even attach the service drop to the pole, only the strand. But their techs don't strap the ladder to the strand like we do (if we don't tie in to our strand or lash our ladder to the pole, we get suspended.
Also, the rates we charge for the lease of space are regulated. Otherwise, I'm sure we (and AT&T) would price them right off the pole.
SO says you. WE do the installs and the construction of the FiOS plant, not contractors.
Great point. At the end of the day, no matter how educated you are, or how well you do your job, or how little you get paid, there is always somebody who "thinks" you make too much for what you do. CEO's think we should work for free so they get all the spoils.
Look on the bright side...it's better than investing in a UAW career.
Regards,
OW
Except the previous C.E.O.'s of the Detroit 3, that is!!!!
Regards,
OW
like any investment, there is no sure way of winning, other than keep investing in yourself.
The problem with UAW members is that they are unkilled labor insisting on being paid like highly skilled labor. That worked when the big3 were the only game in town. Once you have global competition, the union is down the drain.
that's called supply and demand: when everyone of your friends are highschool dropouts, having a bachelor's degree makes you standout.
when everyone of your friends have bachelor's degree, you are just one of them.
when everyone of your friends have master's degree, having a bachelor's degree makes you standout again - as the only rock in town.
That's why you have to find a niche for yourself, or you struggle.
for whatever reason you laugh at the CEOs, they have a skill few has, that makes them well paid.
Our society needs to reassess the notion that four years of college is, (or should be) the only path to success in this country. We are in the throes of an education bubble: one that is being perpetuated by the shills for colleges throughout the country. We should cut through the b.s. and face the reality that colleges have morphed into very expensive vocational schools. The primary reason people pay the exorbitant rates is for the promise of having a better financial future. Now that the economy is tanking, people are more desperate to increase the value they project to the market place. That being the case, a faster, less expensive path to acquiring the skills needed for a given profession needs to be developed.
Unfortunately, due to the Free Trade Agreements of the last 15 years, U.S. companies have been exporting manufacture and service jobs abroad at a feverish pace. At the same time, Colleges/Universities/and Specialty Schools have cropped up all over, touting getting a degree to get a better job. Coincidently, the bankruptcy laws changed, whereby student loans can no longer be discharged if a person filed bankruptcy.
Millions of people hurting from unemployment cannot blame themselves. They should blame the policies of exporting good-paying jobs to poor countries. Both Democrats and Republicans have created this unprecedented policy which is making America poorer. Eventually, the masses will revolt.
Yes, college students must realize their country has sold them out to cheap labor in third-world toilets. Start competing with 12 cents an hour labor or shut up, America!
Not true. If you have a degree in English, Political Science, Sociology, Philosophy, History, etc., then that is much more the case. But if your degree is in engineering, science, nursing, etc. the jobs are much more plentiful. We in particular are not graduating nearly enough engineers. This bodes poorly for the future, as this was what made the US strong. Nowadays everybody wants to be an accountant or banker and be a crook like the rest of them.
I also understand that machinists are in great demand, as one example of a blue collar job that is still needed.
But UAW jobs are declining rapidly, due to their own stupidity and the stupidity of the union.
We still have over 1 million students dropping out of HS a year. We're far from having to many going to college. As it stands now, nearly 20% of adults don't have a HS diploma and were still under 30% of working adults 25 and older with a bachelors degree. That's still a long way from every job seeker having a degree.
I know several people with bachelors degrees that have lost jobs over the past 18 months and all of them had another job paying the same or better within 3 mos. of their layoff and most had more than one offer. While that is probably not the norm, the stats still show those w/o a degree stay laid off much longer and make significantly less.
A degree certainly doesn't guarantee anything, but it can provide more options and open more doors. Anyone should think long and hard before going to college in order to chose the best path. You can't expect to spend $30k+ year at an elite art school to get a degree in photography or something like pencil sketching and expect to graduate with a good paying job to repay your $120+ student loan.
Also, one should not feel like they have to go to college. It just takes a plan, the days of graduating or dropping out of HS and walking straight to the mill or GM plant expecting a $50k job will be in for a rude awakening. Still, many trades need people and pay well. Heavy equipment operators, plumbers, carpentry, iron workers, welders, machinists, mechanics etc are needed and you don't have to go to a 4 yr college, just go through an apprenticeship or vocational program. I can't send my plumbing issue or car problem to India, so I think those jobs will be safe.
Many have made references on how great the 50's and 60's were for employment, but last I checked we still had lots of poor people and ghettos. Why didn't all those people just go to a factory for a middle class paying job? Reading some of these posts, makes one think everyone had access to a great job 50 years ago, that simply isn't true. Honestly, those days were horrible in terms of discrimination against anyone that wasn't a male WASP.
One thing that probably rings true today as it always has, those who work hard and have a plan will find success regardless of the path they choose to get there.
I agree. I went to school, have worked with, and live among several. They still seem to be doing very well. A good friend of mine is a software engineer. Listening to some on these boards, you'd think she'd be living of soup trying to compete with an Indian engineer. Not the case, she works out of her house, making over $150k/yr. She was laid off last Nov. and found another job within 2 mos with a sign-on bonus plus stock options and paying even more money.
I know the H1B visa thing is brought up a lot. A few years ago when the Pharmacist shortage was at critical levels, my wife hired a some Pharmacists through the program. According to her it was such a PITA with all of the red tape and regs it wasn't worth it. She was paying the same for those on the visa, so maybe it would be worth it if you could pay 1/2 for the same kind of work.
This is probably the best advice these days. To attain gainful employment, one needs SKILLS not just a degree. I recall watching "American Chopper" and seeing a guy who probably had only a G.E.D. fabricate a customized motorcycle fuel tank from flat pieces of sheet metal. I was quite impressed. I have a college degree and earn decent money, but thought about going to school to learn to be an auto mechanic just for my own knowledge. Heck, many is the time I wish I had the skills of a machinist just so I can fabricate an obsolete or unobtainable part.
nobody is exporting jobs to other country. the giant sucking sound you heard is capital rushing out of the country in search of maximum return.
Just as you wanting the most for your skills - whatever they are, investors want the most for their capital too.
Freedom cuts both ways. and if you price you out of a market, you have nobody but yourself to blame.
there are tons of high-paying jobs without a "high" degree. traffic controllers, nurses, auto mechanics: BMW certified mechanics routinely make over $100K.
or better yet, put your own capital at risk and be your own boss.
It comes down to what you want to do. That is certainly an area where you if have the ability, you can make a good or even great living (particularly if you own the shop), certainly not everyone has the ability. A friend of mine owns a machine shop. He doesn't have a degree and is very smart, he received most of his training in the military, then through an apprenticeship. He employs about 25 people, and makes a very good living.
My view, is that is a direct result of too high of a minimum wage. Kids see an opportunity to make $8 per hour and drop out of HS. They make plenty to buy a cool car and gas while leeching off mom and dad. By the time they wake up and smell the roses they are in debt and have their girlfriend in a family way. I know this happens because I have close family that did just that. They live a life near poverty and expect the government to subsidize their ignorance.
The UAW did a disservice to many young people by making them believe working as a lug nut tightener was a lifetime job with pay equal to a person with a college degree. Now their world is upside down.
It also helped that many past presidents did look out for the working man. Hoover, Truman and Ike all implemented programs to expel illegal immigrants to insure jobs for our soldiers coming home from wars.
The same party the UAW gives millions to each election does not care enough about American citizens to protect them from non-citizen workers in this country.
in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported well over 1 million Mexican Nationals! The program was called 'Operation Wetback'. It was done so WWII and Korean Veterans would have a better chance at jobs. It took 2 Years, but they deported them!
Now there is a field that despite no union I don't know how they command the salary they do? A few in hospitals have to do skilled chemistry, but most just stand around in store pharmacies while lower paid clerks fill the order taking pills from the big bottle and putting them in the small one, then they just read off the computer if you have a question. I guess its a case of a hard college curriculum but a boring, but well paid job afterwards.
I think you also want to go to the best quality university you can. I don't think PAC-10, Big -10, etc. are having as many problems getting a job as those from lower rated schools, although its still tough and very competitive out there. Of course, after a few years on the job where the degree came from becomes less important.
Yep, the computer does everything and your average flunky can sit behind the counter and count by fives all day. Anyone who believes that is clueless. That's no different then saying a commercial airline pilot is overpaid. The computer flies the plane 90% of the time. Who needs Sully on board. I guess anyone can be an engineer too, all it takes is a copy of Autocad.
Supply and demand is what primarily dictates the pay. To many positions available and not enough people qualified for the job.
Actually some pharmacists are union. I know in Chicago many belong to the United Steel Workers Union.
Absolutely! That's great until the gravy train is over. What does a person do with limited skills when the plant closes. It was great having a $20-30/hr job with $10 hr skills, but reality hits hard when the GM plant closes and your lucky to get a $10/hr job.
It really is sad, but anyone under 50 should have seen this coming over the past 20 years
That's because you need to ber proficient in math. This Chicago math they teach now has screwed kids up for years.
UAW to sell famed Black Lake retreat
The United Auto Workers is hoping to sell its $33 million lakeside retreat in northern Michigan, long a symbol of the union's success but now a financial liability.
The UAW cited the recession and shrinking membership as reasons it is seeking a buyer for the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center, located on 1,000 heavily forested acres near Onaway. The union bought the property in 1967.
The center, named for the union's iconic leader, was a jewel in which many UAW members took great pride. It is expected to go on the market yet this month.
I think DD needs to take up a collection from all the fat cat UAW workers and retirees and buy the place they revere.
Thanks Gary.
It will be interesting to see if the rank and file really give a hoot about the place where Reuther's ashes are scattered. I don't imagine anyone will buy it and build a factory on the land. Maybe the Ford family will buy it and make a memorial to their founder. After all Henry Ford really started the boom in automobiles and the UAW helped in the demise of US automakers. No love lost between Henry Ford and the UAW.