There's an article in the WSJ today about Japan Airlines (JAL) filing for bankruptcy protection. Sounds like a lot of their problems are what forced GM & C into C11.
It's only fair. Each of these groups -- former workers with enviable pensions, current employees who refused to concede enough job or pay cuts, and banks that kept lending under the assumption that Tokyo would cover them -- has played a role in kicking JAL's structural problems down the road.
"The UAW is preparing to file grievances against Ford Motor for restoring merit pay and other benefits to its salaried workers without also restoring similar benefits for its hourly workforce, UAW officials told the Free Press.
The UAW views the increase for the salaried workers as a violation of its labor contract, one UAW official told the Free Press. He wanted to remain anonymous because he is not authorized by the union to speak about the issue."
Always expect the worse, then one won't be surprised by how low they go.
The real problem is with GM bankruptcy the UAW was protected politically. It's going to further hurt the industrial base in this country because they weren't cut loose with a proper bankruptcy and were protected by Obama.
I feel bad for the newer employed UAW workers who have a low pay scale and they had a lower-than-needed new scale to maintain the overpaid wages for the high seniority UAW workers. IF the high seniority workers had taken a proper cut in pay, the newer workers wouldn't be so low.---And the newer workers get the same flack as the older, high seniority workers deserve, but the new guys don't deserve it.
You have pinpointed the inequality in the UAW. The Senior employees sold the new hires down the river to keep their higher wages and Benefits. The truth is the new contract should have gone to the low $20s for all the line workers new hires and senior employees. They have created an unhealthy work place. If I was a new hire making $15 per hour and the guy next to me was old and worn out making $30 per hour, I would not bust my butt to make him look good. That brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
And the salaried workers getting a raise. You wonder if their package is close to the guys whining in the UAW. I don't think Ford can go forward in the USA with the UAW. They just are not going to face reality. That means more plants in Mexico and So America.
I realize that many of the lower wager hires have been let go in all the cuts at UAW auto and supplier company. But many of them from a few years back are still there after the cuts.
I can only image the frustration they feel at being lambasted by folks and reporters as overpaid at $80 per hour like the highly-paid seniority employees while they're actually make $12.35 plus some benefits.
I sure hope Fords gets some really s****y lawyers and holds the UAW's feet to the fire on this one.
It really takes a lot of chutzpah for the UAW to even broach this issue, IMM. For years the non-represented, white collar workers have had their benefits slashed, wages cut, workforce reduced and generally took it on the chin while the UAW workers continued along as if nothing was happening. UAW's response was "too bad, they should have been represented". Now the shoe is on the other foot, and the UAW is crying foul. It takes a big set to do that.
I would not bust my butt to make him look good. That brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
Amen. So much for the UAW caring about all the workers, huh? They only care about themselves. I've said before that the UAW is not 100% responsible. Certainly management deserves its share of blame.
However, recently it's been the UAW that's 100% responsible. Mgmt seems (at last) to be getting it. Hope the UAW doesn't ruin it for everybody else by being selfish and shortsighted.
However, recently it's been the UAW that's 100% responsible. Mgmt seems (at last) to be getting it. Hope the UAW doesn't ruin it for everybody else by being selfish and shortsighted.
With Mually as bright as he appears to be, you just know he must have a contingency plan. His competitors (Toy, Hon, Hyu, etc.) have an advantage in non-union labor. If the UAW screws Ford then they need to be prepared to move more production out of the country, or go BK and void the contracts. Heck, Boeing just started building a second 787 plant in SC to get into a non-union location.
Mulally and his bunch are planning their UAW departure in some manner. Or they should be, anyway. Yeah, Boeing has some kahuna's to do what they're doing in SC with the 2nd Dreamliner production line. Oooh-wee, there's bound ta be some ticked off IAM and SPEEA members in the Puget Sound region round about now. I should know, I used to be a SPEEA-represented Boeing worker. They're probably pipin' hot over this.
You can thank the Democrats in Congress. They have been in charge since the recession started. Time to vote them all out in 2010. Maybe the UAW will see the light. Voting for Lame Labor Rhetoric does not create jobs. Jobs are created by people that feel confident they will make a profit in the business they start. If I was guaranteed that labor unrest was advocated by the government, I would not consider building a business in that place. That is why the Right to Work States are not taking the beating places like Michigan and Ohio are.
Yeah, voting in some enslaved-to-neoconservatism GOPers will change things and give everyone a bright and prosperous future. Let's keep racing to the bottom, the GOP will save us.
2005 was a false economy built on lies and creative accounting. The last 3 years have been a reality check that nobody is going to be able to fix. This is the new world order economy.
The biggest mistake of the Dems was finally becoming organized enough to take control at a time when the excesses of neoconservative economics were finally being felt, and being forced to be corrected. Nobody can fix this problem, it is terminal.
It is Deja Vu from the 1930s. I don't think we want a repeat of the depression. It was still far far worse than what we are suffering today. Our unemployment is probably about 17% where back then it was 25%. And no free hand outs except at the soup kitchens. It took a World War 10 years later to pull US out. And I think you know who was in control that period of time. From 1933 -1947 the Dems controlled Congress with a filibuster proof Senate. I don't like that parallel to today.
It was also the largest growth period for the UAW. Will history repeat itself? Is a decade long depression worth it?
And for all of my loathing of the cowardice and hypocrisy financial sector, had everything collapsed without restraint, I do think things would be far worse now, with no better chances of recovery. Not that the bailouts weren't mismanaged in a disgusting way...but things could be a lot worse today.
Many of those WW2 era dems went on to become neocons. Now they control one party. RINOs.
This is the downhill pendulum swing for unions in general....I have to believe public sector unions are next, as the average private sector worker continues to receive less and less. However, pendulums always swing the other direction.
As part of its plan to produce the Chevy Volt and other future electric vehicles, GM has opened new plants and facilities to produce its own electric-vehicle parts and batteries. Absent from these new facilities? The United Auto Workers union.
How long before the UAW get their tentacles into those non union factories and bury GM again? GM is screwing up by not going to places less likely to cause trouble.
GM needs to be thinking along those lines. If not they haven't been reading this thread! Sometimes I think those of us here on Edmunds all the time would do a better job leading GM than the dorks in charge there. :sick:
How long before the UAW get their tentacles into those non union factories
Workers at the 1,300-acre western Pennsylvania plant have had an independent union since 1933. They voted to join the UAW in 2003. According to the above scenario, Honda and Toyota would soon pull out and find a new non-UAW supplier, right?
Honda, Toyota and others stayed because they know Local 3303 members at AK Steel are world-class workers making the world-class steel they need.
In fact, so good of a job that AK Steel was the only steel company in the world to receive one of Toyota Motor Corp.’s four inaugural Regional Contribution Awards. The criteria for a supplier to be considered for the award include having previously received Toyota’s Superior performance award for a minimum of three years.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing North America Inc. (TMMNA) has also recognized the quality work that the 1,266 UAW-represented Butler workers perform, including winning awards in 11 consecutive years and the Superior award in seven consecutive years.
AK Steel supplies flat-rolled steels used in every Toyota vehicle manufactured in North America. Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda and Toyota automakers’ representatives are often onsite to ensure their exacting standards are being met. http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/10/0110/feature02.php
But now the conservatives are back in the driver's seat,
On which planet?
PS I have never been against labor unions that provide workers that make their bosses money. My gripe was with the UAW trashing the US Domestic auto industry with crazy 2000 page contracts cram packed with crazy work rules. Rules that keep the auto makers from being competitive.
Planet Earth, back in 2004 (read the article). Thats when the UAW article was warning of the status quo. Its great to go back and look at what was said and what it is.
Well atleast people back then had some good common sense and joined labor unions because they were never going to get a fair shake being on there own!!!
...a commute from hell! I guess sometimes though, there's little other choice. I admire these families for being able to make it work...I'm sure it has to be hell on all of them.
However, I don't feel bad that they get to retire with a very nice pension after "only" 30 years. That's where they lost me.
I wish I was able to retire after 30 years *and* with a pension.
Yeah, same here. But in this age, even a pension isn't a guarantee anymore. Couldn't the pension fund go bust if it's managed poorly? And if the gov't ends up covering for it, I think it's only pennies on the dollar.
I had to put in 46 years to get a good pension. 37 of those years in the Teamsters Union. No gold plated HC after retirement. I am fortunate that our Union showed some fiscal responsibility years ago. It has kept the pension fund sound. And out of the clutches of the Teamsters international. I don't want my money going to build fancy golf courses for the Union bosses and their cronies. Or government style Ponzi schemes that steal from the future to pay for the sins of the past.
Yeah, same here. But in this age, even a pension isn't a guarantee anymore. Couldn't the pension fund go bust if it's managed poorly? And if the gov't ends up covering for it, I think it's only pennies on the dollar.
Yeah, it depends on your age and years served at time of the fund going bust I believe.
I think the idea that we can afford to have people retire at 50 years old and possibly live to 100 has got to change. It's just to expensive. SS and the pension system isn't designed for that and it will bankrupt us all if it doesn't change. My great-grandma recently passed away at age 107. That is becoming more common every year.
I was just at a birthday party for a friend that is 90. He is a Pearl Harbor survivor. He retired from the Navy then the PO and has had two retirements for over 30 years. He was dancing up a storm with the 40 year old women at the party.
Starting to get crowded in 100-year-olds' club July 2009 The number of centenarians already has jumped from an estimated few thousand in 1950 to more than 340,000 worldwide today, with the highest concentrations in the U.S. and Japan, according to the latest Census Bureau figures. Their numbers are projected to grow at more than 20 times the rates of the total population by 2050, making them the fastest growing age segment.
The number of centenarians already has jumped from an estimated few thousand in 1950 to more than 340,000 worldwide today, with the highest concentrations in the U.S. and Japan, according to the latest Census Bureau figures.
Well that can't be right! If you believe the idiots in the media and in Washington we're not not living as long as everyone else.
That struck me as funny also. Considering this comes from a very Liberal source. It would be interesting to find out how many beat up UAW retirees are over 100.
It would be interesting to find out how many beat up UAW retirees are over 100.
My grandpa wasn't in the UAW, but he was a union worker in a steel mill for 43 years, he chain smoked until his early 70's, ate steak and potatoes nearly every day, and still made it to 88.
Here I found this from UAW local 1005. I think it's from 2009
Some Facts on all UAW Retirees:
• The UAW has 580,000 retirees of which 70% pay the $2.00 per month voluntary dues • 57 retirees over 100 years old • 4,532 retirees over 90 years old • 31,524 retirees over 80 years old • 72,112 retirees over 70 years old • 110, 003 retirees over 60 years old • 52,055 retirees over 50 years old • 2,536 retirees over 40 years old • 13 retirees over 30 years old
Looks like about a 100,000 UAW retirees, are not so beat up that they could not make it past the National average of 70 years of age. My guess is about 60,000 people in the US over 100 in this upcoming Census. There was 50,454 in 2000 and approximately 55k in 2005. It would be nice to beat the odds and get back all I paid into SS with interest.
As a past Machinist Union Local Secretary, I will try to describe to you how younger people may qualify for a retirement benefit.
In most companies you need at least 10 years service ( some are as low as 5 years ) to qualify for pension credits. A person as young as 23 years of age could qualify for a pension. However, wether they can actually draw that pension before they reach Social Security age is defined in each companies contract or plant closing agreement. Most companies legally prevent you from actually drawing on your pension until you meet the requirements. Mind you that 5 years of service will get you almost no pension, you will still be able to file for it when you reach Social Security age.
Therefore, if a pension plan participant is qualified for a pension, the companies have to show that liability on their books for financial accountability.
5 year vesting was part of ERISA in the 1985 update. I believe it was 10 years prior to that. If you retired after 5 years, if the plan would allow as ours did. You would get next to nothing for the rest of your life. We had the 85 rule. Age and service equals 85 and you could get full retirement you had coming. Of course hourly contribution was the big part of the equation.
Yes, I understand how vesting works. In most companies, you may be vested after 5 or 10 years, but cannot draw on that vested pension until a certain age, usually 62, but sometimes as young as age 58 for plans with an early out provision.
But, the article you quoted said "retirees", which I took to mean people drawing a pension, not just pension eligible.
Age and service equals 85 and you could get full retirement you had coming
That's a pretty sweet deal - probably a rarity in today's world. Heck I reached that point 8 years ago and was ineligible for any type of pension if I retired/quit. Even now if I retire, my benefits are reduced, though not by a lot.
How the heck do you get to retire at age 30 (or younger) or 40??? Maybe they meant disability?
Permanent disability would be my guess, too. Either that, or these lucky 13 have relatives in high places that can pull some strings.
With the UAW, I wonder if the pension benefit goes up if you put in more than 30 years? Seems like most of these stories I read have members looking forward to that 30 year mark. But if you stayed in for, say, 40 years, would there be a bigger benefit I wonder? Other than whatever rise comes from inflation?
I'm not sure how the UAW pension worked. Our Teamster pension was based on years of service, age and contribution. Our company contributed $7 per hour into the pension. I was 63 with 37 years service. The one guy left up there from the early days is 65 with 39 years service. He should get about $5000 per month.
Comments
It's only fair. Each of these groups -- former workers with enviable pensions, current employees who refused to concede enough job or pay cuts, and banks that kept lending under the assumption that Tokyo would cover them -- has played a role in kicking JAL's structural problems down the road.
May need to be a subscriber to read this:
JAL files bankruptcy
The UAW views the increase for the salaried workers as a violation of its labor contract, one UAW official told the Free Press. He wanted to remain anonymous because he is not authorized by the union to speak about the issue."
Return Of The Squeaky Wheels (Detroit News via AlternateRoute)
Always expect the worse, then one won't be surprised by how low they go.
The real problem is with GM bankruptcy the UAW was protected politically. It's going to further hurt the industrial base in this country because they weren't cut loose with a proper bankruptcy and were protected by Obama.
I feel bad for the newer employed UAW workers who have a low pay scale and they had a lower-than-needed new scale to maintain the overpaid wages for the high seniority UAW workers. IF the high seniority workers had taken a proper cut in pay, the newer workers wouldn't be so low.---And the newer workers get the same flack as the older, high seniority workers deserve, but the new guys don't deserve it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regards,
OW
And the salaried workers getting a raise. You wonder if their package is close to the guys whining in the UAW. I don't think Ford can go forward in the USA with the UAW. They just are not going to face reality. That means more plants in Mexico and So America.
I can only image the frustration they feel at being lambasted by folks and reporters as overpaid at $80 per hour like the highly-paid seniority employees while they're actually make $12.35 plus some benefits.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It really takes a lot of chutzpah for the UAW to even broach this issue, IMM. For years the non-represented, white collar workers have had their benefits slashed, wages cut, workforce reduced and generally took it on the chin while the UAW workers continued along as if nothing was happening. UAW's response was "too bad, they should have been represented". Now the shoe is on the other foot, and the UAW is crying foul. It takes a big set to do that.
redundantcrude.Amen. So much for the UAW caring about all the workers, huh? They only care about themselves. I've said before that the UAW is not 100% responsible. Certainly management deserves its share of blame.
However, recently it's been the UAW that's 100% responsible. Mgmt seems (at last) to be getting it. Hope the UAW doesn't ruin it for everybody else by being selfish and shortsighted.
With Mually as bright as he appears to be, you just know he must have a contingency plan. His competitors (Toy, Hon, Hyu, etc.) have an advantage in non-union labor. If the UAW screws Ford then they need to be prepared to move more production out of the country, or go BK and void the contracts. Heck, Boeing just started building a second 787 plant in SC to get into a non-union location.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Job Losses from Great Recession About to Get Worse
The biggest mistake of the Dems was finally becoming organized enough to take control at a time when the excesses of neoconservative economics were finally being felt, and being forced to be corrected. Nobody can fix this problem, it is terminal.
It was also the largest growth period for the UAW. Will history repeat itself? Is a decade long depression worth it?
Many of those WW2 era dems went on to become neocons. Now they control one party. RINOs.
This is the downhill pendulum swing for unions in general....I have to believe public sector unions are next, as the average private sector worker continues to receive less and less. However, pendulums always swing the other direction.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1d3f68/1746#MSG1746
As part of its plan to produce the Chevy Volt and other future electric vehicles, GM has opened new plants and facilities to produce its own electric-vehicle parts and batteries. Absent from these new facilities? The United Auto Workers union.
GM should be able to reduce its costs and help return to profitability
Regards,
OW
Now all they need is a chassis plant in, say Spartanburg SC. Maybe halfway between the BMW plant and the proposed Boeing plant.
One can only hope!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
But now the conservatives are back in the driver's seat, and heading us back toward feudalism and serfdom (and possibly another Great Depression).
http://www.uaw.org/atissue/atstory.cfm?atId=78
Workers at the 1,300-acre western Pennsylvania plant have had an independent union since 1933. They voted to join the UAW in 2003. According to the above scenario, Honda and Toyota would soon pull out and find a new non-UAW supplier, right?
Honda, Toyota and others stayed because they know Local 3303 members at AK Steel are world-class workers making the world-class steel they need.
In fact, so good of a job that AK Steel was the only steel company in the world to receive one of Toyota Motor Corp.’s four inaugural Regional Contribution Awards. The criteria for a supplier to be considered for the award include having previously received Toyota’s Superior performance award for a minimum of three years.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing North America Inc. (TMMNA) has also recognized the quality work that the 1,266 UAW-represented Butler workers perform, including winning awards in 11 consecutive years and the Superior award in seven consecutive years.
AK Steel supplies flat-rolled steels used in every Toyota vehicle manufactured in North America. Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda and Toyota automakers’ representatives are often onsite to ensure their exacting standards are being met.
http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/10/0110/feature02.php
On which planet?
PS
I have never been against labor unions that provide workers that make their bosses money. My gripe was with the UAW trashing the US Domestic auto industry with crazy 2000 page contracts cram packed with crazy work rules. Rules that keep the auto makers from being competitive.
Planet Earth, back in 2004 (read the article). Thats when the UAW article was warning of the status quo. Its great to go back and look at what was said and what it is.
-Rocky
You do what you have to do. Throwing in family responsibilities makes it even worse.
Agreed.
However, I don't feel bad that they get to retire with a very nice pension after "only" 30 years. That's where they lost me.
I wish I was able to retire after 30 years *and* with a pension.
I wish I was able to retire after 30 years *and* with a pension.
Yeah, same here. But in this age, even a pension isn't a guarantee anymore. Couldn't the pension fund go bust if it's managed poorly? And if the gov't ends up covering for it, I think it's only pennies on the dollar.
Yeah, it depends on your age and years served at time of the fund going bust I believe.
I think the idea that we can afford to have people retire at 50 years old and possibly live to 100 has got to change. It's just to expensive. SS and the pension system isn't designed for that and it will bankrupt us all if it doesn't change. My great-grandma recently passed away at age 107. That is becoming more common every year.
Starting to get crowded in 100-year-olds' club
July 2009
The number of centenarians already has jumped from an estimated few thousand in 1950 to more than 340,000 worldwide today, with the highest concentrations in the U.S. and Japan, according to the latest Census Bureau figures. Their numbers are projected to grow at more than 20 times the rates of the total population by 2050, making them the fastest growing age segment.
Well that can't be right! If you believe the idiots in the media and in Washington we're not not living as long as everyone else.
My grandpa wasn't in the UAW, but he was a union worker in a steel mill for 43 years, he chain smoked until his early 70's, ate steak and potatoes nearly every day, and still made it to 88.
Here I found this from UAW local 1005. I think it's from 2009
Some Facts on all UAW Retirees:
• The UAW has 580,000 retirees of which 70% pay the $2.00 per month voluntary dues
• 57 retirees over 100 years old
• 4,532 retirees over 90 years old
• 31,524 retirees over 80 years old
• 72,112 retirees over 70 years old
• 110, 003 retirees over 60 years old
• 52,055 retirees over 50 years old
• 2,536 retirees over 40 years old
• 13 retirees over 30 years old
• 13 retirees over 30 years old
How the heck do you get to retire at age 30 (or younger) or 40??? Maybe they meant disability?
In most companies you need at least 10 years service ( some are as low as 5 years ) to qualify for pension credits. A person as young as 23 years of age could qualify for a pension. However, wether they can actually draw that pension before they reach Social Security age is defined in each companies contract or plant closing agreement. Most companies legally prevent you from actually drawing on your pension until you meet the requirements. Mind you that 5 years of service will get you almost no pension, you will still be able to file for it when you reach Social Security age.
Therefore, if a pension plan participant is qualified for a pension, the companies have to show that liability on their books for financial accountability.
But, the article you quoted said "retirees", which I took to mean people drawing a pension, not just pension eligible.
That's a pretty sweet deal - probably a rarity in today's world. Heck I reached that point 8 years ago and was ineligible for any type of pension if I retired/quit. Even now if I retire, my benefits are reduced, though not by a lot.
Permanent disability would be my guess, too. Either that, or these lucky 13 have relatives in high places that can pull some strings.
With the UAW, I wonder if the pension benefit goes up if you put in more than 30 years? Seems like most of these stories I read have members looking forward to that 30 year mark. But if you stayed in for, say, 40 years, would there be a bigger benefit I wonder? Other than whatever rise comes from inflation?