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I wish you lots of luck pal !!!
-Rocky
Have you followed the news on the mortgage meltdown. Not everyone can afford a home in the burbs. You seem to think a person should start at the top of the food chain. When I started in 1961 with Pacific Telephone it was near minimum wage. It took 6 years to reach the top pay as part of the Union Contract.
You think a school teacher today starts at $14 per hour? Most that I know work several years as a substitute here in CA and AK. Here is what is required in CA and the current pay:
CBEST (California Basic Educational Skill Test)
CBEST is a requirement of the State of California, as well as the Newport-Mesa Unified School District, for someone who has not taught during the 30 months prior to new employment in a California Public School and for all out-of-state applicants. Applicants holding a valid California Credential are eligible to sign a CBEST waiver providing they supply passing results two months from the date that the next available test is given. If passing results are not received, such persons will be terminated. Information bulletins regarding CBEST requirements may be obtained from any California school district, university, college, or the Orange County Department of Education.
SALARY RATE
The salary rate for substitute teachers for the current school year is:
* $100.00 Daily Rate
* $115.00 Long Term (after 15th consecutive day-retro to 1st day)
* $50.00 Half Day
That is $12.50 per hour based on an 8 hour day. They are expected to do extra after school activities plus grading homework at home. If you are a good teacher and the Principle LIKES you, and he has an opening you may get hired permanently starting at about $32k per year. I doubt Michigan pays any better than CA. The Baby Boomers had a good run. It is over and you need to realize that. It is not going to get better before it gets worse.
At $56,973 for 2005, Michigan was ranked 4th in the nation for average teacher salary.
Michigan Education Association (teacher union) is very strong here.
"If you are a good teacher and the Principle LIKES you, and he has an opening you may get hired permanently starting at about $32k per year."
http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/california.html
California starting salary is $43K
The last I looked the USA is still a place you could work your way up to corporate coward and reap all those ill got gains. I remember working for minimum wage for several years. When a new TV would cost half a years wages. Now you can buy a TV for less than a weeks wage and just sit and veg out. I did not hear anyone during the campaign telling US that those that want to get ahead should work two jobs and go to college. My step father did just that and still worked till he was 75 and died without enough to bury him. There is no guarantee. Unless you want some Soviet type government. It is a bit too late to close the immigration flood gates as countries like Norway have.
The UAW had a good run. Kind of like our National Debt. One day it will come around and bite US. Well that day may have arrived for those on the UAW gravy train. The ones that sat in the rubber room reading the funny papers or watching cartoons, have no one to blame but themselves. They had the perfect opportunity to get training in some other field besides lug nut assembler.
One of our nieces has been a sub for 3 years and works almost every day. She is still getting $100 per day unless she fills in for a long period of time. NO HEALTH CARE. Her husband has her covered as he works for the police dept.
You are not going to break my heart with a $14 per hour starting wage for a NON SKILLED AUTO WORKER. That to me is still over paid.
Yes a school teacher with a lot of time makes good money.... We are talking starting wages and minimum wages. Paying your dues. Our instant gratification mentality is a big part of the problem in this country.
Michigan teachers can start as low as $30k per year. Just about what a UAW worker can get with NO college degree.
Nowhere in Europe has closed the self-destructive tides of unsustainable immigration.
TVs are not a measure of anything, really. When my grandfather was young, he could work an eon to buy a radio, but when my father was the same age, a couple days salary could buy the same radio... same concept. It's called technological progress.
Today, I doubt any of those Chinese assembly line workers make nearly enough to afford any of the products they're making.
Those who have the gold make the rules, and they are demanding that the masses make do with less so they can preserved their ill-begotten stranglehold.
Pretty soon the masses will have so little they'll believe they have nothing to lose anyway, so they'll turn on their corporate elitist masters.
How ya fixed for blades?
It shouldn't take much to drive people over the edge. The eventual collapse of our fiat currency could do it. Or maybe an en masse realization that the taxpayers of the nation have just been railroaded into giving more than a trillion dollars to entities that created the entire mess.
The radio that your father bought was superior in performance and durability compared to the one your grandfather bought. But it cost him LESS, both in inflation-adjusted dollars, and in relation to his total income. That represents a real increase in standard of living.
It's the same with televisions. How many hours of work it takes to buy a television (or other major product) is an excellent indicator of a society's standard of living. When televisions first debuted they were so expensive in relation to income that only the wealthy could afford them. They were tempermental, gave poor reception and could not show color programs.
Technology and mass production drove down the price in relation to income over the years to the point that virtually everyone could afford at least two or three. Plus, televisions improved as they got cheaper. A 1968 television had better reception, a bigger screen and was more reliable compared to a 1948 television. It could also show color broadcasts, something a 1948 model could not do.
But it wasn't any more expensive - if anything, it was cheaper than its 1948 counterpart.
To an American from 1948, a 2008 high-definition, flat-screen television seems like something the Martians in War of the Worlds would use. But I'll bet it's still cheaper than a 1948 model.
The average American has a lot to whine about right now, thanks to cowardly bankers.
Your post pretty well sums it up.
The fact that GM has spent about five years making incremental changes that it THOUGHT were radical changes supports your statement. They didn't have the foresight to make radical changes until they were on life support. Well that time is now!
A few items from a great WSJ article today - the automakers' failures are NOT due to the credit crisis, as they were losing millions even when the economy was doing well! This just put them over the edge, but the problems were not because of the credit crisis. The problems were systemic and 30 years in the making. Another good quote from that article "the auto makers are zombies.... they're already dead and they just don't know it yet."
I would not blame the problems at the Big 3 on the individual UAW workers any more than the engineers or 1000s of white collar workers. The fact is they are feeding off the corpse of what were great companies at one time. Not much nutrition in a dead body. Everyone knows bringing back something from the dead is hopeless. The sooner those old dead companies are buried the sooner the US auto industry can be reborn. Just don't look for the old familiar names. They are no longer wanted by many buyers. I miss Studebaker and Packard more than I will miss Buick or Pontiac. The Big 3 destroyed a lot of smaller automakers over the years. Now Toyota and Honda along with the other survivors will kill GM.
RIP
I can't wait for the new GM! It's gotta be better than the last 30 years, no?
Regards,
OW
When you deal with the Devil you have to expect to Lose. Cerberus may end up owning the pieces of GM that are left. With the stock near worthless GM should be an easy target. The millstone must be removed from the neck of GM for anyone to take them and remold them. That being ALL contracts that bind them. I would not expect this current economy to get much better before 2011 or after.
That's a great analogy!
For those who think we are rooting for a GM or other Big 2.5 failure -- the only reason I'm rooting for a failure is that I want to see strong, competitive US vehicles. The US companies as they are now will never achieve that. A strong shock, downsizing, cleaning house, and having them restructure to be competitive is their only hope. We've waited 20 years for that to happen. At this point the reason I want to see it happen fast is that is the only way we may see a strong (albeit downsized) US auto industry from US nameplates. It's gotten really old waiting for meaningful change.
Pepper says customers will not feel the pain they're going through. "The general public when it takes place won't see any decrease in service.. They largely won't know about it."
If that is the case why are we paying them? I have to wonder how many UAW workers could be let go and the cars would still be built? Is the Big 3 still paying workers that are not working. All questions that need to be resolved prior to a helping hand from the tax payers. What will it do for the tax Payer. That is the question that should be asked for each dollar the Fed and Treasury hand out.
That is right. Look at the UK and their once thriving auto industry. It had to die to make a comeback. Arguably the newest Jaguars are the best looking cars EVER. Mini and Rover are doing good. At least I see a lot of them compared to when they were British companies. Maybe the Japanese, Chinese or Koreans will take over the Big 3. Out of the ashes we may see some great cars again.
I guess I have a hard time rooting for wages of others to go down despite the reality. When I was making a better living compared to most of my peers I never once rooted for a company to fail because of the consquences such a failure might impose on my fellow americans who have families and are working towards a modest retirement. I guess I'm more sensitive than most folks in that regard. It really hurt me to see those folks at DHL, all lose their jobs !!!
The bottom line is something needs to be done and the haves that are collecting their pension, IRA, 401K, checks are oblivious to my generations reality !!! I believe people like Fintail and I, in our age group have every right to be very upset at the mess our parents and grandparents, generation created !!! :sick:
-Rocky
Have you ever worked on a assembly line or in a automobile parts plant before ??? How can you call somebody like my father NON SKILLED, is beyond me ??? If you've ever done that line of work on a assembly line picking up very heavy parts for 12 hours a day 5-7 days a week or made precision parts like fuel injectors cutting them to a millionth of a millimeter on a screw machine then perhaps you would have a great deal more respect for those folks ??? You own a few farms right ??? Do you return your farm subsidies from uncle sam each year ??? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
http://www.uaw.org/news/newsarticle.cfm?ArtId=514
-Rocky
-Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081111/AUTO01/811110356/1148- /AUTO01
-Rocky
-Rocky
Any idiot can run a company into failure. Any idiot can sit back and allow unions and other forces to do the same. So what makes the "Failed" CEOs worth their compensation, and especially their "Exit" compensations.
We can say that such and such CEO inherited a mess, and there was nothing he could really do. If that was the case, why was he hired? Why is he allowed to stay when "WE" give them a few zillion to once again mismanage?
Those failed companies should not receive $1 of our tax money until they can show a comprehensive plan to recover or better yet re start. GM is asking for $25 Billion to help with the Health Insurance bennefits of their employees . (Fox news). How could they get that far behind? Are they paying 100% of the premiums?. Are the employees contributing toward the health packages?.
AIG took $25 Billion and the executives went on a pre planned "Holiday".
Seems the bill for that was $400 Thousand or so. They didn't see a problem with that? What kind of idiots are these? What kind of idiots "WILL" give them more money while their "Chiefs" all remain?
There need to be serious conditions and plans before any more of our tax $$$ are handed to those leeches.
Upper management in F-Mac and F-Mae should be jailed and their assets seized and returned to the tax payers.
Corruption at all levels is destroying this country.
Kip
"Bankers produce MONEY. Bankers produce economic growth. Try looking up the concept of lending and fractional reserves before you whine."
No, the GOVERMENT produces money, which it loans to banks at ultra-low interest rates. Bankers also "borrow" depostors money at less than 1% interest, and "sell " it to people at a MUCH higher interest rate. They then "package" that debt (see: MORTGAGE DEBACLE and UPCOMING CREDIT CARD DEBACLE) to securities companies thereby reducing their risk so they can screw their customers out of MORE money in the form of erronious fees and higher interest rates.
Bankers DON'T produce economic growth, WE DO!! They just provide the engine for us to do so. Well guess what??????? That engine has a couple of CONNECTING RODS STICKING OUT THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK (must be a japanese engine ) and they are screwing THEIR CUSTOMERS out of HARD EARNED TAX DOLLARS to fix it..
THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!!
Did your dad just start? My comment was on the starting wage for a person with NO SKILLS. If the person is a skilled machinist he should have no trouble getting a good paying job. You are mixing apples and oranges here. $14 per hour for someone right out of high school is too much to pay.
Do you return your farm subsidies from uncle sam each year ???
I have never received a farm subsidy. That is for the mega farmers with lobbyist in DC.
If Obama, follows through on his promise EFCA, will be passed, currency manipulation will be addressed, and more importantly the unfree trade will be fixed. I personally believe the ultimate fix long-term would be "content" laws here in the U.S.
That unfair Union election will put more people out of work than get people into Unions. Watch and see. If you are following the news you will see all the World leaders are puffing up Obama to be a GLOBAL Leader.
UK's Brown: Now is the time to build global society
You think with all the rhetoric about being a GLOBAL leader, Obama will try to close the rest of the world out to please a few voters in the UAW? You and Fintail are young and will probably bear much of the sins of the past spending sprees. My grandfather's suffered a similar situation in the depression. Life is tougher sometimes than others. There may be 10 million out of work. There are 145 million still working. Most making a decent living wage.
Troy-based Delphi attributed the results to a gain of $5.7 billion from a settlement with GM. Under the settlement approved last month
How do you find this good news? Delphi did not lose money because GM paid them money owed. In reality Delphi still lost money this quarter. What difference does the loss mean whether it is GM or Delphi. It is all UAW workers that are going to lose in the end.
If you want to sell it here a certain percentage of it's content has to be made here !!!
I think that the Japanese are doing that with several high selling models. My Sequoia is very high US content built in Indiana. My next SUV that will be diesel will probably be built here. Both Mercedes and BMW are building their SUVs in the USA. If GM or Ford would offer a nice SUV with a high mileage diesel engine it would be on my list. The Big 2 cannot seem to build what I want. And if it is put together like my last GMC, I don't want it. You need to go look closely at a GMC Sierra PU and a Toyota Sequoia 2007 vintage. The quality is night and day. Both built in Indiana. When you close the door on the Sequoia it closes solid and there is NO wind noise. The same cannot be said for the top of the line Sierra PU truck.
I think I would prefer that to Saudi masters. The bottom line is ownership. If another country comes in and buys a controlling interest in GM, they will say who is in charge. A very simple concept. All very Democratic. The guy with the most shares gets the most votes. If the UAW members wanted to pool their money they could probably buy enough shares to control GM. It is about as cheap as it can get without filing for bankruptcy. If the Union members believe in their company they need to put up the loot or accept whoever decides to buy the company. I would rather have someone from China in charge than Pelosi or Reid. They have already proven they are inept at managing anything.
You and I are in agreement!!!
I do not believe the UAW workers or retirees pay any of the health care premiums. It is a big part of the wage & retirement package.
Their company is going down the tubes. Time to step up to the plate.
Instead of asking their unions, "What are you doing for me", they might need to ask "What are you doing to help the company stay in business so I can get a pay check".
Years ago IBM had some set backs and money got tight. There were many buy outs in a effort to keep the company floating while serious changes were made in business practices and directions.
Our "free" health insurance began to cost the employee $25 a month or so.
There was all types of wailing and gnashing of teeth, but it was one of the necessary changes. Over the years the cost to the employees multiplied greatly. We didn't like it, but we understood that occasionally concessions are required.
Of course there was no union choking the life out of the company. A lot of dead wood was let go because of their poor work habits, as well as people that just were not necessary. The true workers were offered nice buy out packages.
IBM is still functioning, I'm drawing my pension ( Just got a small raise) and my supplemental insurance is $14 monthly, including prescription drugs.
More and more these companies, unions, and employees are going to find the entitlement, they once had, is gone. Hopefully the company will still be there to pick up the pieces.
Kip
Now THAT would be an interesting development.
Agreed. Look at the British auto industry. After it fell on hard times in the 1980s & 1990s, largely as a result of bad business decisions, the Germans bought up serveral companies. For example, BMW bought Rolls Royce & VW bought Bentley.
At first, this was wildly unpopular with Brit workers - particularly the older ones, who hate Germans much more than we can imagine. But as time passed, & the new owners invested in badly needed upgrades to the factories, it became clear that the industry was better off overall.
Wages that are locked in no matter what the ecomony does is a recepie for disaster. It's great to protect wages and workers, but the rest of the world doesn't live such a fantasy, and now hundreds of thousands of workers will find the protection they sought does not exist without the company being successful , flexible and dynamic.
Perhaps if UAW and management worked together instead of getting lost ion the opforest fighting about an underworked broomhandler's job, some of this would have been mitigated.
It's like when CA capped the amount they could bill electicity to CA consumers but then had opened ended downside for the price they paid for it. that foolery got a governer recalled.
That globalist movement deserves to be killed, its leaders introduced to a gallows. Leaders of individual states are simple figureheads.
Will be a tough transition period for Lemko and Rocky. :P
He who has the gold makes the rules, that's what you mean to say.
Big 3 average: $73.20
Toyota: $48.00
Mgt and professional workers: $47.57
Goods producing $31.59
All workers: $28.48
"Should U.S. taxpayers really be providing billions of dollars to bailout companies (GM (GM), Ford (F) and Chrysler) that compensate their workers 52.5% more than the market (assuming Toyota wages and benefits are market), 54% more than management and professional workers, 132% more than the average manufacturing wage, and 157% more than the average compensation of all American workers?
In a few months, we will see if Obama is pragmatic and governs from the center. Or, will he follow his leftist-socialist leanings and pass an EFCA that his Dem Congress might send up to him?
Could Obama learn anything from visits to non-unionized Honda, Toyota factories and discussions with workers there?
Saw a UAW economist on talk show call-in tv yesterday. Of course, that guy was defending/promoting the EFCA. Can see scenarios of a group of bullies at a factory or business intimidating their co-workers to sign the EFCA cards.
I refused to buy stuff made in Japan before you were born. If you own anything not made in the USA you are just as much to blame as anyone else. I bought one of the last RCA TVs made in the USA in 1971. It lasted for 15 years. When I looked for a new TV none were made here. If a single UAW worker bought anything made outside the USA they are contributing to their own demise. You can blame it on all those you think are hiding under the bed. It was our own greedy consumerism that has brought US to where we are today. I would bet you would find a whole slew of UAW workers in the 18 Walmart Stores scattered around Detroit this very Holiday. At least half the products are from China or Korea or Taiwan.
And he who has the GOLD has ALWAYS ruled. No different today than any other time in history.
Great stuff!
Little old Japan isn't really the problem here though, not for the future. It's big old China, which was aided and enabled by cabal of self-titled Americans who had globalist ideals in their head. Your friends like Nixon and Kissinger worked for them.
That consumerism is used by the powers that be today to keep the masses submissive and subservient. A few new gadgets can keep the kettle from boiling over. Who enabled this 35 or so years ago?
Yes I did. It was a POC. I regretted buying it within months. I also bought a 1970 Datsun PU because I needed a vehicle and could not afford the payments on a Ford. I do not see any difference in Japan in the 1950s and 60s and China today. They both are taking jobs from Americans.
That consumerism is used by the powers that be today to keep the masses submissive and subservient. A few new gadgets can keep the kettle from boiling over. Who enabled this 35 or so years ago?
Democrats were in Control of Congress. Maybe they felt trading with China was preferable to fighting with them.