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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
He (Wagoner) will be proved correct because Congress won't let that (BK) happen...or will it?
Dems Can't Pass Bailout
Regards,
OW
Where or where is all this money we're spending COMING FROM?
From a printing press.
I mean, c'mon. Money is just an illusion anyway, ain't it? Some sort of completely fabricated representation of value.
Spend all you want. We'll print more.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
This fiat wallpaper currency, managed by greedy irresponsible idiots who operate in a void of accountability, will be the downfall of the US.
First government bailouts awarded to Russian oligarchs (IHT.com)
"Companies belonging to two of Russia's richest men are among the first to be awarded loans from a $50 billion government bailout fund intended to help Russian companies repay debts to Western banks, rather than allow the banks to seize assets that had been pledged as collateral."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2008/11/i-really-really.html
Some of the cars at that place had coats of dust on them. Many were from prior model years. I could see why. To this day I still haven't test driven the SS, and probably won't at this point.
Not sure if this relates to whether or not we need domestic automakers, I was just struck by the similarity. But I will add that when new cars are sitting around on dealer lots literally for YEARS as they do at GM dealers in my area, the current excess capacity of the industry is all too obvious. And those dealers (and Chrysler dealers) seem to be the only ones for whom the problem is that obvious.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
He has a lot of valid points but, yeah, more than a touch harsh.
My biggest concern is that we're going to end up dumping all this cash into the auto makers, get more of the last 30 years and then say "yeah, but we dumped all this money; we should keep giving them more money until they turn it around." When does further aid become money down teh drain?
GM says: New labor agreements will make U.S. manufacturers’ labor costs competitive with the transplants by 2010.
http://gmfactsandfiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/state-of-us-auto-industr- - - y.doc
They also say: The U.S. auto industry has been hard hit by the credit crisis.
Now, if it is true that they can not get credit that will allow them to stay in business and their customers can not get credit that will allow them to buy cars, they are to some extent victims of those that created this crisis (you know, the financial institutions that are getting bailed out). Granted they may only be victims in that the credit crisis is the straw that is about to break the camels back, but I have a hard time with the idea of billions for wall street crooks and not one penny for manufacturers of actual products, who provide good paying jobs for a few of those who did not go to business school and learn how to really rape the economy.
it's rather too large to post in full here.
Ah, the sunk-cost fallacy. Often used to justify unpopular wars, irresponsible construction projects after problems are pointed out (see Tellico Dam), or putting one more nickel in the slot machine.
Unfortunately it works all too often.
We had a crazy one in Jersey years back called the Tocks Island dam. Would have created a 37 mile long lake between NJ and Pennsylvania in the Delaware River. They started the idea in 1955 and I don't think it was officially dead until the early90s but by then they had emptied out almost whole townships (one of them last i looked had 5 people left).
The good thing that came out of it was the area became the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area which is quite beautiful. You would not believe you're maybe an hour from New York City.
Filed under unintended consequences?
That experience rung a bell with me, too. A few weeks ago, I went to a Cadillac-LaSalle show at a local Caddy/Buick/GMC/Et Al dealership. Okay, this is the 2009 model year, right? Well, they had a new 2007 GMC Canyon pickup sitting in their showroom that they were trying to unload. I forget how much they wanted for it...they knocked something like $6K off but IMO that was still too much for something that's two model years old.
Have seen it and would agree. There are many beautiful parts of New Jersey away from Newark area. Jersey gets a bad rap from comedians who probably never venture beyond the NY/Newark area.
Just like GM today, Jersey "Gets no respect".
ROTFLMAO! Good one, fezo! :-)
I have seen new cars up to 3 model years past their expiry date at GM dealer lots, still unsold for the first time. I think GM dealers are unique in that regard.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
ummm.... doesn't that mean its free? Or they are paying someone to take it?
hell, even I'd buy it for THAT price.
edit: awww... heck. Thought I was in the Project Cars forum. ;P
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Again, GM was losing money before this credit crisis. They haven't reported a profit since 2004. GM's management needs to look in the mirror to find the blame.
DETROIT MUST DIE
Good luc, GM.
Regards,
OW
Yeah, he has a LOT of guts writing that in a San Francisco paper thousands of miles away from Detroit! I'd like to drop him in the middle of a UAW convention and have him repeat what he said in that article! They'd tear him apart like a school of piranhas!
This is the Internet, he might not be in San Francisco at all.
But I do agree, despite his very good points he did seem a bit cavalier about OTHER people losing their jobs.
I'm not sure the UAW is particularly proud of what they build. I'm not sure they care one way or the other.
I dunno. Anybody from the UAW lurking around here?
The first sentence of his article already had me fuming and he even included such icon as the Corvette and Mustang as examples. First of all, American cars are nowhere near as bad as the hyperbole in his opening sentence. Heck replace the names of the cars to "Camry, Accord, Sonata, CRV, Civic and Sentra" and American to "Asian" and you'll get exactly how I feel about those alien brands! :mad: They are the epitome of tedium and boredom! They're as palatable as unflavored styrofoam rice cakes. I wouldn't buy any of those dull Asian cars if they came with a pyramid of gold bullion in the trunk, ten thousand dollars of cash in the glovebox, and an ashtray full of flawless diamonds! :mad:
Don't even get me started on his callous lack of regard for the auto workers and their families, the economy at large, and the United States in general. My head might explode like that dude in the movie "Scanners." :mad:
Of course comparing an Aveo to a Lexus or BMW is hardly fair but....you have to admit, American cars have been losing market share year after year after year.
Given that cold hard fact, which is sad to say not refutable, are we then to assume:
a. foreign car buyers are all stupid.
b. American cars are increasingly non-competitive.
c. the reason for the loss of market share is a mystery unknown to us.
We have to be real here. The additional bailout cash is not going to solve this problem. A complete overhaul of the industry is the only way and there is no time for evolution. It's TIME for revolution and it will all be better off when the smoke clears.
You only support the value-added products that sell for a profit. So now, costs need to be drastically reduced. Use the money to close down at least 50% of the operations.
Regards,
OW
Open mouth, insert foot.
Sometimes I think these writers really have a love/hate thing goingx and that leads to this contradictory reasoning. It's like when you find your high school hero is really a stoner or something. The disappointment when an exalted figure in your mind stumbles and falters can lead to real anger. I know that sounds pop-psyche but you know what I mean, right? You see this in sports all the time, the once-hero now despised.
If they didn't care, they wouldn't scream so loudly.
As for cost disadvantages, I'm not sure what all is driving the difference, but Detroit overhead is not competitive these days. UAW work rules may be part of it, but management largess may be as well. The real issue is that many people, and their kids as they grow up, remember all of the bad products and problems, so they are no longer sympathetic and are gravitating away from GM, Ford and Chrysler even as the products may be improving. I don't know how fixable this problem is, but you are right it will take time if it can even be fixed. Personally, I hope Detroit can turn it around, but I'm reluctant to return to their products based on too many bad experiences over the years. It will take a lot of proof over a period of time, not just some good initial quality surveys to get me back.
Dead men tell no tales!
I wonder if it's something like "critical mass", that the number of HAPPY Big Three owners (and there are surely a good number) have to actually outweigh the unhappy ones, or at least "out-shout" them.
You can count me among the extremely happy Big Three owners! :shades:
I could be convinced to provide some big loans if we really require the necessary reshaping:
1. Get rid of Wagoner and his direct reports.
2. Break the work rules and union contracts to allow for a more flexible industry.
3. Dump 50% of the models they make - they can pick them.
Anything less..... they should just fail without a bailout. And we're primarily talking about GM here.
I believe it would be a mistake for the government to attempt to bail out the automotive sector without demanding concessions from labor that would essentially bring its costs in line with non-union ones. Some differences in the work rules could remain in place, so long as their economic impact is minor. This would be harsh for the auto industry workers, but anything less would be unfair to tax payers and workers in other industries. Also, anything less would ultimately fail since, in addition to manufacturing products that people choose to buy - a huge challenge, given current consumer preferences - the domestic auto industry must be cost competitive to survive.
I think it would be very difficult, but perhaps not impossible in the current environment, for the Obama administration to demand the concessions from organized labor that are essential for the long-term viability of the domestic auto makers, but without them I believe any financial help would be doomed to fail. One could argue that it would have been easier for a McCain administration to play hardball with the unions, since they didn't enjoy much union support. On the other hand, there's the "it took a Nixon to go to China in the '70s" argument. It says that, because Obama had strong union support, he is in a better position to extract concessions than McCain would have been. He would have to use all of his considerable political skills to obtain the necessary compromises, though, and that's after he's persuaded Nancy Pelosi and others to side with him. At this point we don't even know if President elect Obama has the desire and will to demand major concessions from the unions, in exchange for government help.
A major argument for throwing a lifeline to the auto sector is that its demise would increase unemployment. The degree of the increase is arguable, but more jobs would be retained, even with a shrunken domestic auto sector than without one. In addition, for a variety of reasons that are unique to this industry, including the long lead times required to design and introduce new products, the volatility of fuel prices plus the impact of the credit crisis, a good case can be made that the perfect storm has impacted autos more severely than other industries.
Should Washington demand that the auto makers be forced to only produce green cars, as a condition for receiving aid? Absolutely not! Detroit has to produce cars that consumers want to buy, and despite a series of bad calls in the past, auto industry managers are more in tune with consumer needs and desires than politicians are. In addition to being bad strategy, it would be even a worse precedent to permit Washington to dictate auto design, beyond what it already does with safety, emissions and fuel economy standards.
Further, management should be strongly encouraged, if not required, to reduce its compensation until the companies' viability is restored. For this effort to succeed, it's important that management lead by example.
Finally, the demand for domestic vehicles needs to be stimulated. I would favor an appeal to patriotism in this time of need. To that end, the industry should mount a strong marketing campaign to encourage consumers to consider a domestic brand before they buy their next vehicle. It could be useful for the industry to appoint one or more respected, charismatic spokesperson to make its case with consumers.
Innovation would skyrocket. Entrepreneurs would flood in. New and pioneering car companies -- or better yet, radical new ideas for urban human transport -- would flourish. New jobs would be created almost instantly.
Few people are going to by a new car from a non-established manufacturer.
Bankruptcy typically means a reorganization, I think this would mean that there would be a new GM and/or a new Ford that are freed from some of their current obligations and probably under new management. If instead, the bankruptcy is a liquidation, then it would seem likely that foreign manufacturers will ultimately buy up at least some of the assets and increase their US operations.
For the consumer I would imagine liquidation would mean increased new car prices, due to less competition.
Yeah, and a LOT less choice, or in my case, no choice. Maybe you won't buy a Big Three car, but wouldn't you at least want the option? A world of Camcords would be like going into a Baskin Robbins and they have 31 flavors and they're all vanilla.
You mean like Oprah, Tom Hanks or DeCaprio? You will be hard pressed to find an Obama backing Celebrity that drives a Big 3 vehicle.
"People look at the Prius like they looked at a Jaguar a few years ago." Reiner traded in his BMW, David sold his Lexus and Emanuel put away his Ferrari. And they're not the only ones. The list of Hollywood's hybrid-come-lately car owners reads like headlines on the cover of People Magazine: Cameron Diaz, Leonardo DiCaprio, Carole King, Billy Joel, David Duchovny, Patricia Arquette, Jackson Browne and Bill Maher, to name-drop a few. Larry David purchased three, including one for his character, "Larry David," to drive one on his HBO series, Curb Your Enthusiasm. "It works on every level," said David, who is married to a staunch environmentalist. "I'm doing something good, and my wife has sex with me more often."
If you think driving a domestic vehicle is Patriotic, you can scratch most of Hollywood off the list. And most of CA for that matter. If it were not for big PU trucks and SUVs there were be NO domestics in CA.
PS
The ONLY celebrity type I hear pushing GM vehicles is RUSH LIMBAUGH..
Me? I am in my late 40s and never even owned a foreign car until my wife got a Jetta in 2005. But then, I also got a Mazda (though it is built with UAW labor in Michigan) in 2007.
And, yes more choice is better.
I think the best way to deal with this may be along the lines of what some others have posted to basically, in exchage for government help, get some of the benefits of a bankruptcy without it actually happening. Replace the management and/or drastically cut their pay, get some concessions from the union, etc...
I would have felt the way you do if this would have happened while I owned my Suburban. As far as I am concerned now, GM has NOTHING worth buying after my last GM vehicle. The other car makers have advanced in the last 10 years and GM has stayed stagnant or went downhill. At least in PU trucks and SUVs.