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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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Someone has very poor math skills. 20,000,000 X $40,000 = $800,000,000,000 ($800 billion), so who are the 20 million that will get the $40,000? In addition, there is no talk of a sum like that going to the auto manufacturers.
If Toyota is boring, they should open the Toyota School of Boring Cars at Detroit University then. You should be able to major in Boring. They should have the Boring Car Awards televised each year. There should be a Toyota Clone Laboratory in MIchigan.
I mean, not to be sarcastic, but you can't argue with success. I suppose one could operate a "purist" automaker like Morgan or a novelty operation like Viper but if you want to sell millions of cars----hey, listen to the public. They vote with their wallets, not with their opinions.
Besides, what would any of us do with $40,000?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My current passion are a few that would anger you: Mitsubishi and an Italian-French combo called Pininfarina-Bollore(their under-development all-electric microcar called the B0 currently has my coattails in a sling).
If it doesn't make you passionate what are you supposed to do?
My Grandpa in Washington state loved Buick's. I remember fondly his tan '68 Builck Skylark. Great 4-door. Someone stole it from Parkland, WA, right next to the Pacific Lutheran University campus, and they found it up by Mt.Rainer burned to a crisp!
He bought Grandma a pink '57 Buick Skylark, too. Whoa, was that thing..umm...stunning looking.
Go with your passion, man!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My point exactly for the Shiftright Citizen Subsidy Program....."A Buick in Every Pot".
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I understand your passion, man. How can we get so intense about a huge automaker failing? It is not right. Doesn't sit right, I remember Mom had this huge '68 Buick LeSabre with a 400c.i. V8. Man.
When you only tapped the accelerator that car would just move out off the line. What a great vehicle and only normal maintenance was ever required for it, too.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My second car, another Buick, was even better. I don't remember ever having to do any significant repairs on it. We currently have two Buicks in our household - my 1988 Park Ave and her 2005 LaCrosse. They're both extremely dependable.
CLASSICS FORUM
Hopefully, bailout means "Throw Out" also but I have strong doubt that "strings attached" might be nothing more than paper tigers!
Oh well, I'll just keep paying my taxes and keep my mouth shut. In my case, since I just bought the CR-V and will not purchase for a few years, I'm on the sidelines watching the super bowl of cars!
I've done my part over the years with six-figure support direct of the US Auto System. I'm done...until restructuring produces top class cars again, I'm off shore for top class products. :surprise:
Regards,
OW
The United States must retain some semblance of an industrial base. We have already lost too many important industries such as steel, textiles, electronics, furniture, etc. My own state of Pennsylvania was devastated by the destruction of three of it's most important industries - the collapse of King Coal in the 1950s, the railroads in the 1960s and 1970s, and Big Steel in the 1980s. Today, Pennsylvania is just a shell of the mighty industrial state it once was. The collapse of the Big Three will ensure that most of the United States will become the rusted-out shell Pennsylvania now finds itself.
The transplants are not nearly big enough to cover the void left by the Big Three. The foreign makers don't have to stay here. They can simply pack up and say, "We destroyed the Big Three! Mission accomplished" and go home as they throw the states that gave them so many tax breaks a one-fingered salute. We will then have to import all our vehicles as there will be no capital for a new domestic start-up and nobody reckless and self-destructive enough to take the chance. The last guy who seriously tried was Henry Kaiser and look what happened. What choice have we?
When the Big Three disappear and the transplants abandon the U.S. to move back home, there will be unemployment on a massive scale - tens of millions of angry idle workers with nothing to lose. It could mean the collapse of our entire American way of life.
All it took were some very fond memories of a few GM automobiles to do it. Those were great rigs and I drove Mom's '68 Buick LeSabre as a 16-year-old. That was a safe car for a 16-year-old to drive, gentlemen.
No, we can't let this industry fail. They need to sit down and draw up some recovery plans that Congress and the American public will buy.
rockylee...I don't care what they say about ya, you're actually a pretty decent guy.
America does need it's own automakers! I don't totally believe this but I'm having a huge change of heart here.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The US will be "better off" with GM and Ford staying alive that I agree with but not under the current management. Personally I am against cash bailout and I think Chapter 11 should be the doc's order for the big 3. Re-org, get rid of the bureaucratic way of functioning and make the company leaner should be the right way to save the companies.
To sum it up, I am not against the big 3, I am just purely against the way they function and their incompetent management teams and leaderships.
Oh and um... imo it's idiotic to say that the foreign automakers would just pack up, go home and leave the US auto industry in ruin. People, it's all about BUSINESS and business only. To their eyes the only thing that matters is PROFIT, they don't care about the nationality. Why would they want to leave the largest (soon to be the second largest) auto market in the world and go back to the minor leagues? That doesn't make any business sense at all.
"You pay $45K for Camry or you don't get it, stupid naive American gangster!"
"No, you pay $50K for Accord or you don't get it, lazy product of shoddy U.S. educational system!"
"No, you pay $65K for Maxima, or you don't get it, you foreign devil!"
OK, now maybe leaving our shores is a bit extreme, but what's to keep them from abusing their workers or paying them Wal~Mart wages? They have nowhere else to go and they can't turn to the UAW as they will be as dead as the Big Three.
Same with the argument that the Big 3 are all going out of business. Guess what. They're not. Only GM is admitting their demise and even they won't just shut off the lights and go home to watch Letterman. Ford has already stated that they will continue their turnaround whether they get bailout money or not. Same with Chrysler.
Frankly, I think it would be an absolute ballsy move if Mullally just turned to the government and said "Thanks, but we've got it" or something of those words just to prove how absurd this bailout B.S. has gotten. :mad:
"No, you pay $50K for Accord or you don't get it, lazy product of shoddy U.S. educational system!"
"No, you pay $65K for Maxima, or you don't get it, you foreign devil!"
Well for one thing, the market simply won't bear a $45K Camry, $50K Accord, or $65K Maxima. If the domestics went under and the Japanese were the only game in town and tried to pull a stunt like that, I'm sure that you'd see car buyers revolt by holding onto their existing cars longer, buying used cars, or turning to the Koreans. Plus, I don't think the Japanese would truly ever be the only game in town, simply because there are the Koreans, the Europeans, and even the Chinese could get in on the act.
The only $45K Camry that would be marketable would have a badge that says "ES350" on it. :P
Our local Chevy - Cadillac dealer dropped the Caddys.
Down the street a new Hyundai dealer is opening up.
Did they break? :P
This country still produces plenty of steel. It is among the top five steel-producing nations. It just doesn't produce much at the old, unionized "dinosaur" plants anymore.
Incidentally, one of the driving forces behind the collapse of the old-line, unionized steelmakers was the decision by the Big Three in the 1970s and 1980s to buy their steel from other suppliers.
lemko: The collapse of the Big Three will ensure that most of the United States will become the rusted-out shell Pennsylvania now finds itself.
Much of Pennsylvania has moved beyond the steel industry. Pittsburgh is a nicer place to live today than it ever was before. Even Philadelphia is a better place today than it was in the 1950s and 1960s - cleaner, safer and with a much better downtown.
Other areas of the state never relied on the steel industry in the first place. The region around Gettysburg, Carlisle, Shippensburg and Chambersburg is a growing area (if anything, it is growing too quickly).
The Big Three do not have manufacturing facilities in every state of the union, and if one collapses, it will only drastically effect those communities where it does have a plant. Automobile manufacturing will continue to thrive in Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee and Texas. It will even continue to thrive in Ohio, Indiana and, yes, Michigan.
Denver, Boston, New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston, Seattle, Pittsburgh and Phoenix will not dry up and blow away if one of the Big Three goes belly up.
As with the steel industry, it will be a different automobile industry, but also a better one.
They can only charge what potential customers are willing to pay. If Honda decides to charge $40,000 for a Civic sedan and $50,000 for an Accord coupe, it will soon find itself in the same position as GM, even if all of the Big Three go away simultaneously (which is highly unlikely).
That just creates an opening for the Koreans.
IF I have to throw money away, i'd rather give it to ford. At least they have a sustainable plan in the near future, they understand the company cannot rely on profit margins from their trucks/suvs to float the boat.
We've been fighting a war for the last 5 yrs, have we ask any automanufacturers for using their production lines? Having a big industrial base does not make your military strong, south korea would have ruled the world if that's the case.
Particularly the when the competition is crushed by a system that has imploded. Say all you want about the off shore companies...let's see who's standing when the smoke clears.
And to all the alarmists...the new American Auto Industry will do just fine as soon as the new business model is established...not any sooner.
Regards,
OW
Oh, DOWNTOWN and maybe a few select areas like Olde City and Society Hill are cleaner and safer than it was in the 1950s and 1960s, but the rest of the city is A LOT worse. Even my own neighborhood isn't as nice as it was ten years ago. Ask the man who lives there.
Philadelphia, incidentally, began losing its core industries in the 1920s, long before the Japanese came on to the scene.
And a big reason no rational company would ever locate within the city today is because of insane tax rates used to support a bloated, inefficient bureaucracy that takes over-regulation to new heights. Not to mention unions that can strangle a business in the cradle.
A few years ago, after the handsome new Philadelphia Convention Center opened, city officials were upset to discover that many exhibitors were refusing to return to the city after one trade show or convention.
Why?
Because of their uniformly negative experiences with the arrogant, inefficient unions that had a stranglehold on the workers who installed booths, set up the electrical connections and lighting, etc.
The transplants are not nearly big enough to cover the void left by the Big Three. The foreign makers don't have to stay here. They can simply pack up and say, "We destroyed the Big Three! Mission accomplished" and go home as they throw the states that gave them so many tax breaks a one-fingered salute. We will then have to import all our vehicles as there will be no capital for a new domestic start-up and nobody reckless and self-destructive enough to take the chance. The last guy who seriously tried was Henry Kaiser and look what happened. What choice have we?
The problem with this 'theory' is that it's nonsensical. Why? I was there for the destruction of the steel industry through the 70s, 80s and 90s. I saw first hand who, what and why. And the result is the following....
The US still makes 100 million tons of steel today just as it did in the wonderful heydays of the 50s and 60s. In fact nothing has changed except the venues and the fact that the quality is better and the price is lower. That sounds like a really good situation. It sucks for PA but for the other areas for the nation as a whole and the steel users it's a bonanza.
I'm also laying a trap for you in your reply. Careful now.
The reorganization of the auto industry from the antiquated 20th century model to a new more vibrant more flexible 21st century model is almost exactly equivalent to what occured 15-20 years ago at Bethlehem, National Steel, USS, Weirton, Youngstown, LTV and others.
And the Highlander and RX aren't??? Land Cruiser and LX aren't??? Camry and ES???
Because they could build factories in the SECOND (soon to be FIRST) largest market (China) build them there (because the Chinese say they HAVE TO) and import them HERE. Think of the profits they'll make then, using slave labor.
Companies like this are why the PBGC has a $25 BILLION deficit.
"No, you pay $50K for Accord or you don't get it, lazy product of shoddy U.S. educational system!"
"No, you pay $65K for Maxima, or you don't get it, you foreign devil!"
Well, everyone else said everything else I would have said, so I will just add: do you realize how enormously xenophobic you sound?
And BTW, the American government, the most deeply in debt in the world, will never have a strong currency until it makes some major systemic changes, and as a result the dollar will remain weak, which is the best incentive in the world for the foreign automakers to stay In America, and in fact to build more plants here.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Plus you get minimal overlap between the Toyota model and the Lexus model. I think the buying public knows you are "stepping up" when you buy a Lexus over a Toyota. Does anyone really think that a Buick Lacrosse is any more of a step up from a Chevy Impala? Hell, it's no more of a step up than a 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix. Especially when it came right out of the gate sporting a 3800 with a 4-speed from the same car.
Ah, but the Kaiser legacy lives on. The health care system that Kaiser started for his employees is now the second largest employer in the State of CA, right behind the University system. Probably the best Health Care system in the World.
CA is in a recession. The impact on domestic car sales has already hit CA. No one is buying domestics. They are dead, kaput, time to shut the doors. The foreign devils will have NO problem coming up to fill the need for cars. They will not pull out of the US because they can build here cheaper than Japan and Germany. At least until our government becomes as repressive as theirs. Then the MFG will move to China and India.
You also forget we have high powered politicians that want US all to be driving EVs by 2020. The Big 3 are so far behind in EV technology they will never catch up. The Volt is a feeble try at EV for the masses. You cannot build a car for $50k, sell it for $40k and stay in business.
I wonder if the base LaCrosse might actually be considered a slight step down from an Impala these days? It still has a bigger engine, 3.8 versus 3.5. However, the 3.5 puts out a bit more hp, something like 215-225, while I think the 3.8 is 197.
And while some people might laugh at the statement I'm about to make...but...when the Impala was restyled for 2006, the interior really took a giant leap forward, quality-wise. I'd say it's definitely narrowed the gap between a Camry, Accord, or Altima. Some people might still find they prefer the interior of the Japanese competition, but I wouldn't be ashamed of the Impala's interior.
I think when viewed from the outside, the LaCrosse has more upscale styling cues than the Impala. But when viewing the whole package, I'm not seeing a huge difference in hierarchy. Now the LaCrosse offers the 3.6 DOHC V-6, which the Impala does not, so I guess that's one thing in its favor. But then both offer the 5.3 V-8.
I guess if nothing else, hierarchy and "step-up-edness" aside, one advantage of keeping the Impala and LaCrosse around is that still gives you some variety. For instance, if you want a Toyota, but hate the way a Camry looks, well tough nookies. You either buy it or you don't. But with GM, you might like what the W-body does for you. However, if you don't like the Impala, you might like the LaCrosse. Or vice versa. Now if you hate them both, you need to look elsewhere, but at least you have that choice.
Truth be told, GM's been doing this for ages. It's just a formula that worked better back when GM had a larger volume, and there were more ways to distinguish the cars, such as adding length, making a larger standard engine, etc, and before aerodynamics dictated that the cars start looking more and more alike.
For instance, in the past I've always liked Pontiacs. And even if a Pontiac really didn't offer anything that you couldn't get at Chevy, Olds, or Buick, I just liked having the choice. Heck, a couple years ago when a friend of mine wanted a Chevy Equinox, I tried to push him into a Pontiac Torrent instead! Even though it was just a badge-job, I liked the styling details of the Torrent better. However, he didn't like the Torrent. It ended up being a moot point anyway, because he went with a Nissan Xterra.
Other than the G8 though, Pontiac doesn't really make anything that does it for me anymore. I'd take an Aura or Malibu over a G6, and definitely take an Impala or LaCrosse over a Grand Prix. Just to be different though, I might take a G3 over an Aveo, or a G5 over a Cobalt coupe, but I'm not going to be in the market for that type of car! :P And if I was, I'd probably check out a Honda Civic.
As for California, it may soon be filled with domestic cars as millions of "Michies" come from the Midwest in a Steinbeck-esque migration to the promised land of Cali.
But I don't think the majority of buyers see them as much different.
Well, at least until recently, Toyota had the Avalon. I could at least tolerate the Avalon's look but absolutely can't stand the Camry. The new Accord is also a mess. Why are they trying to imitate Toyota? Same thing with Hyundai. Hyundai used to do it's own thing which I kind of respected. Now they're cranking out imitation Accords, (Sonata) and imitation Camries, (Azera). I don't know what to make of the Genesis. It's got a very ugly grille and really isn't all that in person.
Style-wise though, I don't really like the Avalon either, but I do think it's a nice car.
I think that's just it. It's gotten to the point that everything's been done before. We're not really seeing anything truly new out there with regards to style, but just old styling cues put together in different ways.
For instance, when headlights first came out, they were big round things...one on either side. The next evolution in headlight design was the hidden headlight. Cords used them in the 1930's, and the 1942 DeSoto used them, and countless other cars, I'm sure. Then in 1958, we saw quad headlights...two smaller lights on either side. We got them side-by-side, diagonal, and slanted. Then in the 1970's, we got rectangular headlights, both single and quad. Then in the 1980's it was flush-mounted composite headlights. They started off as more or less rectangular, but eventually it got to the point they'd be any shape the designers imagined.
So, where else can we really go with headlights? We've had round, square, hidden, stacked, vertical, etc. What else can you really do with them that hasn't been done before? Or, even if it's a new twist, it'll still remind you of something that's been done before?
They better bring some of their big stash of cash from years of high paying UAW jobs. CA is not friendly to people without money. Unless you are illegal. Then we give you the farm. Best bet is get an old Winnebago and move from one Walmart to the next. Thousands have found you can live for next to nothing that way. Better yet get a a job as a Walmart greeter and live out in the parking lot. They will not find the high paying jobs in CA they lost in Michigan. Unless they are college educated and part of the progressive society that controls this state. Santa Barbara is a good place to head for. They have parking lots set up to handle the homeless living in their vehicles.
The fact is, more and more Americans don't want the Buick LaCrosse or the Chevy Impala or much of anything else from GM.
The dropping market share these many many years defined the problem, and the conclusion is, sadly, irrefutable. You fill a car lot with Toyotas on one side and Buicks on the other, and at the end of the month, you are going to have more Buicks left than Toyotas.
That's the bottom line.
This kind of sums it up:
"The senior Republican on the Banking Committee said Wednesday he doesn't believe there will be a turnaround in the troubled U.S. auto industry until its top management is ousted and its manufacturing operations are revamped.
'I don't think they have immediate plans to change their model, which is a model of failure,' Sen. Richard Shelby said"
You need to get out more, like seriously and urgently...
China's living standard is on the rise and the new labor law has just recently been passed. Anyone who has been to China in the last few years would laugh at your "slave labor" comment, especially at those established companies like Sony, GM, Acer, etc.
US can't compete with the third world countries on manufacturing and that's why I kept saying we should be the world's design center, or innovative center. Let the countries with cheap labors to have all the factories and dirty air. It's a cruel world out there, if you don't adapt, then you get replaced, clear and simple. When a UAW line worker doing nothing but mounting the transmissions onto the cars mindlessly over and over is making more than an engineer with a masters degree from a tier one university then you know something is wrong...
Again like I said, I am not against Detroit (Big 3) I am just against their way of functioning and their incompetent management and leadership teams.
The scenario can be previewed by watching tv news videos of the streets of Cuban cities over the last decade. It seems like the predominant vehicles are 50's era American cars.
And, insofar as critical needs for military use, the Army can revert to buying some of its trucks from Toyota, just as it had done for about 10 years from Korean war to the early 60's.
Thought that only Chicago McCormick Place did that.