Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Makes one realize that proper training and good working conditions make a huge difference in what kind of product you end up with.
Of course, starting with a fresh new plant and workers eager for a job didn't hurt.
My son still drives my old 94 Subaru Legacy made in Indiana - still reliable and doesn't burn or leak a drop of oil. Also well built.
I recall reading Brock Yates in Car and Driver in the early 80's and he was PREDICTING back then that it was all over for Amreican brands. He was 25+ years ahead of the times. But, non-discriminating American buyers, those who buy toasters, refrigeratiors, etc., just kept on buying American brands because they did not know any better. They are still out there and cannot face reality. For them and other American workers of the Big 3, we need to bail out these failures or else financial collapse the US, I guess.
Don't Honda and Toyota owners buy toasters and refrigerators? Strange people otherwise. I don't see any point to that statement.
>did not know any better
I know I bought my last 4 cars after comparing with Toyota and Honda. Value wasn't there and cost was much higher over lifetime of ownership. Plus I wanted a car that didn't ride like a gokart with lots of road noise and that was just more comfortable for driving than those cars I test drove. Could be it's the buyers who put up with less quality in the product that don't know any better. My Buicks are going strong and have served me well at a lower cost than the Accord and Camry that I shopped would have done.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Amazing that VW produced a good Golf in PA in 87. I had an 80 Rabbit from that place and while it was fun to drive it was a disaster on reliability. After a brief respite from car payments I bought a 2 year old 80 Honda Accord. Never looked back.
Neighbors of mine for many years, seniors and fiercely pro-American brands always, bought their first foreign brand vehicle a couple of years ago - a Hyundai Azera. They said they looked at and test drove all comparable American and foreign sedans and thought that Hyundai Azera was best quality/design/features/etc for the dollar. Previously, they had a Dodge Intrepid.
Don't let Andre see this....
I've had a couple of American cars in the mix as I went along but they were ones that fit in my no trouble mold - like the two Novas along the way - a 77 and a 78. Easy as heck to work on and never any real issues.
Of course most of my Japanese makes were made her in the USA while my Ford was from Ontario and my Chrysler from Mexico.
We got 2 Acuras, 1 Honda, 1 toaster, 2 refrigerators, 1 upright freezer, AND 2 American brand John Deere tractors, one a diesel. When shopping for tractors, with an OPEN mind, the American brand Deere tractors were superior to Japanese Kubota brand per our analysis. We siimply selected the best brand per our ivestigation and analysis - that was John Deere. That is, simply, how any consumer should view a purchase.
Yup - it was bought used at a Toyota dealer in Annapolis MD in 1991 after just having its 60K service at the local VW dealer (every service interval stamped with a "senior citizen discount" stamp). After I bought it, I wrote a nice note to the original owner - (his name was on the service book), and he sent me all the service records/receipts. His 60K service cost about 25% of what I paid for the car - which was only 3750 (advertised at 6788). I put another 105K miles on it, totally trouble free, with just routine driveway fluid-changes for maintenance that I did myself and two tire changes - the only times it went to a shop, then sold it 4 years later for 2500. Probably the very best auto investment I ever made.
Only point I can agree with. There are people who post anti US made statements without having driven or owned a product in recent years. In some forums people post over and over the same anti US brand statements; they are just there because they have some vengeance they are serving on the products. Blind hatred.
>most(?) buyers of American brands are clueless.
Glad to see a question mark there... That's an awfully broad brush with which to paint all US brand owners.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Surely they can't all be lemmings. You know that's a weak argument these days.
One advantage you had over foreign car buyers is that parts were cheap and plentiful and most gas stations would work on your car. That does add up over time one has to admit.
But when a carmaker can't succeed IN ITS OWN COUNTRY---that's pretty sad.
Point is, foreign cars kept getting better at a faster rate than domestics.
If anything, mentioning the VW Rabbit proves the point. Detroit couldn't even compete with THAT piece of junk. How can you lose market share to an old VW Rabbit? It seems impossible.
Barn door now closed, gap narrowed, but alas, horse is gone.
When Buick Lucerne came out, I went to dealer on "car row" that had Buick that was near Honda dealer. I sat in and looked around the Lucerne and quickly eliminated that brand/model from consideration given current ownership of an Acura. Sales guy asked if I wanted test drive and I said no based on sitting in looking around attributes as such of the Lucerne.
My car has never seen a gas station repair. I've done all work or it's been to the dealer for a few items in 168K miles.
>The majority of Buick buyers obviously switched
It's my feeling that discontinuing the H-body leSabre and Park Avenue cost lots, lots of customers. Just as discontinuing the Olds including the 88 line cost lots of customers who didn't just jump to another GM product. Lots of wiser buyers picked Camries in lieu of LeSabres. If it's a Camry at the left turn onto the ramp onto I70, I toot the horn so they'll go in between oncoming cars; otherwise the older Camry drivers sit and sit waiting for a red so they can turn left.
>when a carmaker can't succeed
Didn't GM sell several cars this year despite all the economy October surprise and the financial hardships? They sold _almost_ as many as Toyota or did I hear the wrong numbers? It's not like _nobody_ is buying their cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I did the same thing with the Accord last winter. I sat in the cars in the showroom and the cheap plastic and the sticky rubber netting over part of the armrest and the design along with fit and finish interior wise made me decide I didn't want to even drive it this time. The last test drive in 07 was rough still. Can't they build a car without road noise and tire noise and feeling every pebble? One of the Civics in the showroom was a better materials car for the interior than the 3 Accords present.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I mean, you know about Economy of Scale. At some point in this downward spiral, as sales decrease, it gets harder and harder to make a profit. So you close factories, lay off skilled workers...and by doing so, practically seal your fate and assign yourself to minor player status.
Many people don't realize that it takes a staggering amount of money just to close factories....staggering sums of cash, of reserves.
Oh I want to answer that soooo badly. The answer is right there, but it's such a cliche that I know it'll irritate Imidazol! Oh, what the hell. The answer is, most of Buick's buyers went for a ride in a Cadillac station wagon. And I don't mean the SRX! :P
On a more serious note, I'd say that a lot of Buick's customers didn't go anywhere. But just got older. And for the most part, as people get older, they don't buy cars as often. And unfortunately, Buick didn't bring in enough younger customers to offset the fact that the older customers were buying fewer cars.
Also, as the years went by, the Japanese started building bigger cars...cars that would serve as a good alternative to what Buick was known for. Way back in 1985 for example, when my grandparents bought their LeSabre, there was precious little on the Japanese front that overlapped with Buick. In price, yes. But not in size. About the biggest Japanese car out there at the time was the Toyota Cressida, which was about the size of a Buick Somerset Regal. An Accord was about the size of a Skylark. But Buick still had the Century, Regal, LeSabre, Electra, and Riviera. And in 1985 those cars were all strong sellers.
Interestingly, the only Buicks that weren't considered strong sellers in 1985 were the Skylark and Somerset Regal...cars that were further down into Japanese territory.
But, time marched on, and so did the Japanese. The Camry is now big enough to compete with the LaCrosse. And the Avalon is big enough to compete with the Lucerne.
Yup. When more and more brands start competing, your share decreases unless you have extraordinary product or price. GM hadn't.
>sales decrease, it gets harder and harder to make a profit
The sales covered up the high cost of UAW workers and GMAC helped cover up with their profits. The auto sector wasn't as profitable as it needs to be. Changes needed to have been made years ago.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Unfortunately he's taken the ride in the Caddy wagon now and won't be buying any more cars. He was just short of 91. His cousin is still going at 94 and has a DTS.
There's a lot of similarity to Lemko there. Perhaps the real differentiator is that people who want big sedans that are soft and roomy like the American makes, because that was a strength area. People who wanted smaller, or sportier, or firmer ride and handling, bought foreign, because there was nothing decent from the US makes in with those qualities.
But when a carmaker can't succeed IN ITS OWN COUNTRY---that's pretty sad.
That's an obvious yet a very telling statement. So true.
Agreed. And the temporary fix was to overproduce ever cheaper cars for fleets to help cover the big fixed costs. Which worked for a while, but really degraded the brand image and resale values. Now it is all crashing down.
I think my FIL is a dying breed.
One glaring mistep in GM/Buick Lucerne design and features that I recall was the steering wheel. I found that the "tilt" steering wheel had exactly the same feel and same amount of fixed detents that a full size Pontiac I owned decades ago. AND, the steering wheel did not have telescopic feature. This was one flaw that particularly caught my attention and is inexcusable in a marketted "near luxury" segment. Many less expensive autos at the time had tilt/tele as standard.
Nobody in their right mind would buy one new.
If it's any consolation, the Lucerne started around $26K, with the 3.8/4-speed. For $38K, you'd probably get one fully loaded with the Northstar, leather, sunroof, just about everything. When the Lucerne came out, it had to fill the role of two cars that were dropped...the LeSabre and the Park Avenue, and that probably created a bigger price spread than if they still had two separate models.
The 3.8 is a great engine but it's old....very old.
I think automakers, if they discount the concept of "technology status", do so at their own peril these days.
Many car buyers want the latest and greatest. Pushrod engines work very well but they aren't sexy and they certainly aren't a selling point.
Detroit's "Magna-Ride" was very impressive but other than that, there's not too many *significant* technological rabbits coming out of Detroit anymore.
the Europeans and Japanese have been whupping us on advanced auto technology for 50 years now.
We make the best small aircraft. We make the best construction equipment. But why are we usually beat to the punch on automotive innovation?
Surely our engineers are just as smart as any on earth.
The Chevrolet dealer treated us with the utmost respect. Girlfriend came back six times before she bought the Impala. The Buick dealer also treated us very well when she bought the LaCrosse.
I must respectfully disagree about technology. Car buyers are fully aware of the technology they are buying, and the fact that Detroit doesn't think so has contributed to their troubles I believe.
A consumer buying a modern computer can't often tell you how it works, but he/she knows if it's the latest tech or not because he/she has been "educated" by the media.
Every time a car magazine or TV auto show pounds Detroit for old-fashioned tech, that scores a point with the buying public.
I agree with this. My parents (ages 68 and 74) just bought a brand-new Lucerne...which replaced a 1999 Park Avenue. They used to replace a car every 5-6 years, but they kept the Park Avenue for almost 10 years, because they are driving less. I'll bet they keep the Lucerne for an even longer amount of time than they kept the Park Avenue.
The big problem for Buick is that they aren't getting new customers to replace the old ones who either die or greatly reduce their driving (and, thus, the need to replace their vehicles as often).
What's interesting is that I see older Baby Boomers in their late 50s migrating to Toyota Avalons and Camrys. Which could spell trouble for Toyota in about a decade...
Yeah, I see some kids running around in superannuated Buicks too, because they're dirt cheap and Grandma hardly ever drove them so they're not clapped out (yet). The torque spurt from the 3800 also provides the illusion of power in city and suburban driving. Woe be to any who think they can take that fart-can Civic in a 40 roll, though.
The problem with the people you described is that they aren't buying brand-new Buicks. They aren't helping Buick or GM by purchasing old, used LeSabres and Park Avenues. I remember that in the 1980s, used AMC Eagles were actually popular in rural Pennsylvania...but that wasn't enough to save AMC.
The EPA doesn't show a listing for the Solara in 2009, so I guess it's already on hiatus.
The lots are full of Avalons
And, since I'm only 55 my wife says I'm not old enough to buy a Buick yet
What else can they buy for $1500 that will haul 8 of their friends around with them?
My Dad was 57 when he bought his '03 Regal. That happened to be the median age of a Regal buyer at the time, so I teased him that he was finally old enough to have one!
I guess I shouldn't talk, though. I was just shy of 29 when my grandmother gave up driving, and signed her '85 LeSabre over to me.