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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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Does it have a Continental Kit?
Except for current best sellers in class of GM,America does not need the rest of GM (Saab, Hummer, Saturn, etc) as an automaker.
Well, I'm older than that :P, and Buicks do absolutely nothing for me. I'm starting the drawn out process of looking for my next (used) vehicle. 3 or 5 series BMW, Acura TL, Infinity G35, Cadillac CTS, maybe a WRX. A lots going to depend on the deal, mileage, etc. But no Buick.
Well, what I meant to say was the best looking cars made in America. But then what I should have meant was the best looking cars made by a company with an American name. Oh well, it's all confusing now. I just like their muscular look. I really liked the Magnum although I must have been in the minority since it's dying.
Comparing Chrysler to the best looking simply meant comparing to GM and Ford. I'm not impressed with much they have to offer as far as looks.
Let's try it this way; best looking car/suv "made in America" = BMW, Honda and Toyota
I have yet to dream of a luxury car. I continue to be more of a sport sedan kind of guy. Thankfully there are options for me, the 3-series, the G35/37, and Cadillac CTS are all in that category.
I think my luxury car ride will be, as Fezo so eloquently put it, in the Cadillac station wagon when I'm laid to rest.
The younger well-to-do people who don't want to show off are driving a less-expensive Lexus.
I see very few people under the age of 60 driving new Buicks around here. It is largely a car for older people, most of whom are solidly middle class. The Ford equivalent is the Mercury Grand Marquis.
From pricing out cars on Edmunds, I can see why people are driving MB's and Lexus. The C Mercedes and ES350 are really not that much more than some of the loaded GM cars. People seem to have more disposable income today so when they see a Lexus for $37,000 or a Pontiac for $33,000 it does not seem like that big of a step up in price. Some of the imports, if you stay away from the option list, are reasonably priced. However when shopping the real price is the negotiated out the door price and the imports seldom budge. Fortunately for them, most buyers percieve that as meaning they are worth more because they don't have to deal on them and they overlook the fact that they can get the domestic model with a huge discount. Rather than giving huge discounts, GM and Ford should lower the prices to the price they are willing to sell at.
I look at a loaded Expedition and a Sequoia and they are $48K and $50K I think the Sequoia is a better deal. Then when I price then out (until lately) I can buy the Ford for $38K and the Sequoia is $45K. The Expedition looks like a bargain. Then I start thingking this must be junk if they have to discount this much to move them.
It's all a matter of perception, but GM and Ford have to deal with the fact that people won't buy until they see huge mark downs. If you wait they will come down. If you don't buy when they are marked down you've been screwed because in a couple of months your neighbor will buy one for $5K less than you did and you just gey ticked.
If the loaded Expedition listed at $40K and the Sequoia at $50K I think more people would see that the Japanese are gouging us.
Cadillac does a better job of appearing somewhat unique, rather than just another cookie-cutter car (Catera excepted of course, which was another cookie cutter car).
This is a dangerous time to be lacking a rational and clear cut product line.
I think Toyota does the "mix" the best. Trucks, van, entry level, luxury level, mid-level lux, crossover, hybrid. About the only thing they lack is a credible sports car. Maybe they need to buy someone else's.
Boy, if Toyota had a Miata, a Corvette, and a 3/4 ton & 1 ton diesel truck the game would be over.
I think the mix is about right, they have all the markets covered. Its just the entries in each market I don't particularly care for. And they have lacked a sports car since ~'95 or so and it hasn't hurt them too badly.
That in no way diminishes your point that GM needs to have a clear product line and maybe a few brands aren't going to make it (or they become trim lines on other makes...so the fancy Impala with the barca-loungers is the Buick and the one with all the body-side cladding is the Pontiac).
In entry level product line, the imports smack Detroit silly.
In entry level product line, the imports smack Detroit silly
I think the main difference in content level was safety systems. Creature comforts (Stereo, pw/pdl/ps/pb) I think the domestics are actually ahead. The lack of standard anti-lock brakes, stability control, and traction control across the board is kind of appalling to me.
As you mention the xA, I remember trying to convince 2 non-auto enthusiast friends to get Corollas, only to have them both get Mazda3s because they said the Corolla felt "like it would tip over." Toyota gives power windows and door locks, but apparently you have to go up 2 trims to get sway bars.
I got stereo and all power accessories on my xA for $13,800. But I didn't get a rear sway bar or decent tires, both of which I added for an additional $500 and I was very glad I did.
But still, there was nothing from any other manufacturer to touch it at $13,800. Not even close. Still running in a friend's hands at 58,000 miles, never a touch of trouble---nothing, zero, nada.
Toyota HAD a "Miata"...it was called the MR2. Didn't go well....people buy Miatas from Mazda, period. :shades: They also had a sports car but not a V8...never was Toyota's style. Trucks they should leave to the domestics, they just do them better.
The '08 was exactly the same price (<14k) but lacked the pw/pdl/cruise, but had decent tires and wheels (for OEM) and a reasonable stereo. The '05 was bought the day they came out and was like 15 but has the power pkg, alloys, etc. and is an auto. Neither car has ABS which I think is ridiculous.
I have another set of friends that traded their Tercel for an xB and think its the greatest thing ever. They have 2 small kids and everybody fits. I personally can't get past the styling and the instrumentation (especially the xA), but they love it.
It is my impression that the majority of domestic car buyers do not have the same percentage of "yes I'd buy another one" as many of the import makers.
In other words, one can explain the decades-long decline of Big Three market share not only by the dilution of the market by more competitors, but also by the gradual loss of customer loyalty, or as we say in the biz, "brand equity".
American car makers survived fora long time on "bang for the buck" and on "I can't find this vehicle in the toyota line up" (such as HD work trucks).
Apparently "bang for the buck" isn't such a big bang anymore and those big trucks eat a lot of gas in an economic pinch.
The stars aren't lining up very well for the Big Three it seems, in 2008-2009. Not a shocking revelation, as many of us saw this coming (look when we started this topic for instance).
Yeah I think that is true, my dad loved the '93 Accord and wanted to get something newer/nicer/fancier in 2003 and there was no Accord V6 manual, so he got a G35. Whats worse is after taking that '93 as a hand me down, he made ME get an '07, which is acceptably bland I suppose.
It is my impression that the majority of domestic car buyers do not have the same percentage of "yes I'd buy another one" as many of the import makers.
Supposedly GM has the strongest brand loyalty of any OEM. Might be blind loyalty, but kind of bucks that trend.
American car makers survived fora long time on "bang for the buck" and on "I can't find this vehicle in the toyota line up" (such as HD work trucks).
I kind of go back and forth on this...bang for the buck is what some people call "value" and if a domestic manufacturer can offer a better value, typically that is something of a good thing, right?
So like if Ford can do this Fusion thing right, and it gets better mileage and costs less then the TCH, does that mean its bang for the buck or is that value? The same argument applies with the regular Fusion and the Camry. How does a domestic manufacturer "win?"
Do you have a link for "brand loyalty" statistics? I find it hard to believe that GM leads the world in brand loyalty, but I could see them leading the domestics. I know I'm a Chevy guy in that respect.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hey watch it...I used to drive a Dodge Dart! :P
Didn't they come with a 340ci 4bbl? That's the only one that would interest me.
It may seem like the country that used to make everything is on the brink of making nothing.
In January, 207,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs vanished in the largest one-month drop since October 1982. Factory activity is hovering at a 28-year low. Even before the recession, plants were hemorrhaging work to foreign competitors with cheap labor. And some companies were moving production overseas.
But manufacturing in the United States isn't dead or even dying. It's moving upscale, following the biggest profits, and becoming more efficient, just like Henry Ford did when he created the assembly line to make the Model T.
The U.S. by far remains the world's leading manufacturer by value of goods produced. It hit a record $1.6 trillion in 2007 - nearly double the $811 billion in 1987. For every $1 of value produced in China's factories, America generates $2.50.
So what's made in the USA these days?
The U.S. sold more than $200 billion worth of aircraft, missiles and space-related equipment in 2007. And $80 billion worth of autos and auto parts. Deere & Co., best known for its bright green and yellow tractors, sold $16.5 billion worth of farming equipment last year, much of it to the rest of the world. Then there's energy products like gas turbines for power plants made by General Electric, computer chips from Intel and fighter jets from Lockheed Martin. Household names like GE, General Motors, IBM, Boeing, Hewlett-Packard are among the largest manufacturers by revenue.
Several trends have emerged over the decades:
America makes things that other countries can't. Today, "Made in USA" is more likely to be stamped on heavy equipment or the circuits that go inside other products than the TVs, toys, clothes and other items found on store shelves.
U.S. companies have shifted toward high-end manufacturing as the production of low-value goods moves overseas. This has resulted in lower prices for shoppers and higher profits for companies.
When demand slumps, all types of manufacturing jobs are lost. Some higher-end jobs - but not all - return with good times. Workers who make goods more cheaply produced overseas suffer.
Once this recession runs its course, surviving manufacturers will emerge more efficient and profitable, economists say. More valuable products will be made using fewer people. Products will be made where labor and other costs are cheaper. And manufacturers will focus on the most lucrative products.
Aircraft maker Boeing announced last month it was cutting about 10,000 jobs. At the same time, workers are streamlining the wing assembly for the 737, the company's best-selling commercial plane, said Richard McCabe, a wing line mechanic for 10 years and former Machinists union shop steward.
He and his co-workers at the factory in suburban Renton, Wash., were asked about 3 1/2 years ago to figure out how to switch from building wings in massive stationary jigs mounted vertically, "the way things have been done here forever," to "one-piece flow," assembling them horizontally on a moving line similar to automobiles. The new process is set to begin by the end of the year.
"I won't go to the wing. The wing will come to me," McCabe said. "It's going to save them millions in scrap and rework."
McCabe said there was a lot of initial resistance on the shop floor, but Boeing's increased outsourcing - including wing production for the new 787 to Japan - helped change workers' minds.
"I told the guys, it's development or die," McCabe said. "If we can get this done, it assures us the future."
About 12.7 million Americans, or 8 percent of the labor force, still held manufacturing jobs as of last month. Fifty years ago, 14.6 million people, or 28 percent of all workers, toiled in factories. The numbers - though painful to those who lost jobs - show how companies are making more with less.
Still, the perception of decline is likely to grow as factories and jobs vanish, and imports rise for most goods we buy at stores.
Thirty years ago, U.S. producers made 80 percent of what the country consumed, according to the Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI, an industry trade group. Now it's around 65 percent.
American factories still provide much of the processed food that Americans buy, everything from frozen fish sticks to cans of beer. And U.S. companies make a considerable share of the personal hygiene products like soap and shampoo, cleaning supplies, and prescription drugs that are sold in pharmacies. But many other consumer goods now come from overseas.
In the 1960s, America made 98 percent of its shoes. It now imports more than 90 percent of its footwear. The iconic red Radio Flyer wagons for kids are now made in China. Even Apple Inc.'s iPod comes in box that says it was made in China but "designed in California."
"Some people lament the loss of manufacturing jobs we could have had making iPods. So what?" said Dan Ikenson, associate director of the Center for Trade Policy Studies at the libertarian-leaning Cato Institute. "The imports of iPods support U.S. jobs," including engineers, marketers and advertisers.
Some U.S.-made products are hiding in plain sight.
Berner International Corp., based outside Pittsburgh, doesn't make the clothes, dishes or sponges sold at Wal-Mart, but its products hang above shoppers' heads as soon they come through the sliding doors.
The company's 60 employees make air curtains - rectangular blowers mounted to the ceiling that keep out hot or chilly air, insects and dust while keeping in A/C and heat. Also called air doors, they hang from ceilings at Wal-Marts, Whole Foods, and Starbucks, and above the big factory doors at Ford and Toyota car plants.
Chief executive Georgia Berner keeps her company in the United States because she relies on her staff's deep knowledge of air blowers, which are custom made for clients using metal plates, fans, motors and electronic parts assembled at the company's 60,000-square-foot factory. Each box requires specific voltages and sizing, she says.
"I have a crew here (with) much of the product knowledge in (their) heads," she said.
To deal with the recession, her production manager is making the factory more efficient by move shelves of parts closer to workers.
She's also banking on a new line of air curtains for fast food drive through windows, noting that fast food demand is on the rise while other restaurants decline.
Other companies saddled with high labor costs - sometimes called legacy costs that insured workers high wages, pensions and handsome benefits - can struggle to survive.
In the early 1980s, the U.S. steel industry faced such pressure. Today, it's the auto industry, which is pressuring its unions to agree to deep reductions in pay and generous benefits. In fact, it's a condition of the $17.4 billion in emergency loans from the government to keep the industry in business.
computer chips from Intel ...Hewlett-Packard...
Look at an Intel chip one of these days. They're not made in the US. Same deal with hard drives.
I've noticed a trend myself...if it's a consumer good, it's less likely to be made in the U.S. Stuff built in the US tends to be more B2B oriented...they sell to other businesses.
Just look at all those fleet cars the D3 build, for example. Work trucks too...the D3 are KINGS when selling B2B. :shades:
Oh well, at least we still got Boeing.....
Heck, some of them came with a 340 with a six-pack! You could also get a 383 in 1967-69, but it wasn't a very good fit, somewhat restricted. From what I've heard it added more weight than power, so you were really better off with a 340.
You could also get a 440 in them in 1968-69, and in 1968, you could even get the 426 Hemi!
Now I think police cars should remain BOF and RWD, so the domestics have the corner on those. Although they have already moved away from that with Impalas for police fleets.
And Ford has announced that it will quit making the Crown Vic, right? Yikes, what will law enforcement do without that gem available?!
Personally, my first response to the article that Lemko posted is I am pleasantly surprised that the native manufacturing rate has only dropped 25% in 30 years. I know it will continue to drop. If the domestic automakers fail, it will not just be because other manufacturers could out-compete them solely on the basis of lower labor costs, which is the reason lots of other manufacturing has left our shores. It will be because they were mismanaged to death, and partly because they provided a product generally viewed as inferior for many many years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Protectionism is rarely a good idea IMO. It just allows the sick patient to linger on.
And think about this: the domestics haven't been able to compete with global automakers in a period when their manufacturing has mostly been in countries with a first-world standard for pay scale and work conditions. Imagine how it is going to go as more and more companies move their production to India, eastern Europe, and Central and South America, not to mention China. Is that incorporated into the domestics' survival plan?? I doubt it.
I do wish we had a healthy, right-size domestic auto industry. If we could just go in and sweep away all vestiges of 2 out of 3 of the domestic automakers, I am sure the third would thrive, and that would be good for the United States. Alas, such a thing is not possible in the real world....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Truth be told, we deserve to have no domestic auto industry today. The foreign companies have clearly out-competed us, except in a few specific market segments. Despite that fact, it would be nice to have one full-line domestic automaker survive these doldrums. In reality, it ought to be only a truck and heavy equipment manufacturer, with perhaps a large car or two. Perhaps a luxury line of large cars and SUVs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hmm, lets the the Ford Fusion Hybrid (named best hybrid in America by USA Today, even CU seemed to like it a little bit..), the non-hybrid Fusion has also been doing well in terms or reliability and quality. The Focus (and the rest of Ford's lineup, for the most part) offers SYNC, giving bluetooth phone and iPod control via voice (something Honda/Acura still can't seem to get right). The Fiesta will be here soon, so the 3 people who want one can get one (I might be one of those 3...especially if we get one of the Euro-sport type models).
Oh and I forgot about the new Taurus, a powerful front or all wheel drive sedan that actually looks interesting, and dare I say, appealing.
The Opel/Saturn Astra is actually fun to drive and has a very VW/Euro feel. The Cadillac CTS is a fantastic drive, one of my favorite cars out right now (even under the threat of the Hyundai Genesis), and the G8 is a modern muscle sedan.
Chrysler has the 300C (a little long in the tooth right now, though) and the Charger and Challenger. If you like your right foot to do something and you are less worried about fuel prices, there is fun to be had there with an assortment of V8s.
So yes, they make something besides trucks. You will notice the Camry and Accord are often referred to as CamCords (especially on these forums). This might be because they are so dull there is precious little to distinguish them from each other, let alone the rest of the market.
So yeah, 10 years ago, when everyone wanted an Explorer or a Blazer, thats what they made. Now people want cars again, so they are adjusting.
People see what they want to see. If they want to justify a purchase, they will find a way to do it, American, Japanese, or European. Just because someone's neighborhood is full of CamCords doesn't mean there aren't other viable entries into the segment.
The Astra looks nice but no one seems to be buying them.
The Fords aren't here yet. I do, however, give them a load of credit because all will be here shortly. Very different from the GM ads going on now with everything on the Volt and then a quick disclaimer at the end saying that the figures they are quoting might not be true once it's actually released.
Anyone who can't distinguish between a Camry and an Accord hasn't driven one. They're very different cars. i understand why each has its audience. I also understand they aren't for everyone and there are now some competitive cars out there as alternatives with more on the way.
Fair enough, I really don't have a lot for Chrysler, although for the price of a midlevel cure for insomnia (Camry LE) you can get a Charger with a Hemi. Is that the right choice for everyone? Probably not, but its a lot more fun.
The Astra looks nice but no one seems to be buying them.
Yup and this concerns me a lot. Everyone was telling Ford and GM to "bring the cool European models over" and then they get here and the sentiment is "I am not paying that more for a Saturn or Ford..." when in Europe they are 20-30k cars. That's why there is no Mondeo over here.
The Fords aren't here yet.
The Fusion has been out since '05, the Focus has been out since '00. Both have always been class competitive in terms of power and fuel economy (not leading, but I am pretty sure people can't feel 3 hp increase at the top of the tach). The reliability has been increasing the whole time.
Anyone who can't distinguish between a Camry and an Accord hasn't driven one. They're very different cars. i understand why each has its audience.
Eh in looking at the midsize sedan forum and the prices paid forums, it seems like for the most part, its price or a coin toss. They are both great entries into the market, but eh, I don't know, I am 15 years too young to be their target market.
Oh, the Focus and Fusion are both here but are going to get refreshes at least in the next year or so and will be yet more competitive. The Fusion Hybrid and the new Taurus look superb. Ford has the right idea.
What's happening wit the Astra concerns me as well. The last thing i want to see happen is for gm and Ford to decide the European cars here isn't a good idea. I saw a picture of a european Focus convertible. I'd buy that right now!
I readily admit I'm not thrilled with the current Accord and Camry. They are getting too porky for my tastes. but I ahve always liked that both make a nicely competitive sedan that runs fine on four cylinders and offers a manual transmission. I think if I were replacing our 00 Accord now I might be leaning toward a Mazda 6. Fusion would be in the hunt which says a lot for Ford.
I had a '93 Accord EX from 2003 to 2007 or so. My dad had it from new. It actually had some unusual failures during its tenure in our family, but it was so much more fun than a Taurus, Tempo, or Lumina. It was just so far ahead of the domestic vehicles at that time there wasn't a lot of comparison (the one other thought was the Taurus SHO, which was much more expensive then the Accord).
When I got it, I rebuilt the suspension with new bushings and control arms, etc and got new firmer shocks w/performance tires (remarkably affordable in a 195/60R15 :P). It was a really fun vehicle with a sporty feel in the vein of the BMW 2002.
That is totally gone from my 2007 Accord, the Mazda6 (and especially the MazdaSpeed6) felt so much more fun. The newer Accord is bigger still. Given sales figures, its obviously market driven, and the people just don't want what I want.
Yada, yada, yada, here we go again and it's not even the FFH blog. Probably will be a great car but to name something the best hybrid in America before a single consumer has purchased one is BS. Ford has to earn that title the hard way.
I missed those 90s Accords - some of the best ones they made. I had a first generation (80) and a second (85) and then have the 00 that we still have. I haven't really done anything with it other than improve on those factory tires which were only good for putting a ton of miles on. I don't mind getting a lot of miles on a tire but I'm interested in the performance first, comfort second and wear third. Fortunately one can just pop that in at Tirerack and it picks out nice stuff for you....
I'm almost afraid to try a current generation Accord. If I found it may as well be a Camry that would definitely disappoint me.
Bribe Motor Trend? :shades:
No. No. That's the easy way.... Hey, at least Ford can finance the bribe themselves....
I actually agree that naming something the best before it's actually out is a little silly but, hey, it definitely has some serious buzz. If it doesn't live up to that we're talking disaster.